Indian Army: News & Discussion

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 03 Jan 2012 02:34

I’m being treated like chief of Pak army: Gen Singh

More than a week before defence minister AK Antony rejected the army chief’s statutory complaint on his date of birth controversy last month, General VK Singh told defence secretary Shashi Kant Sharma that he was being treated by the ministry as if he was chief of Pakistan’s army.

Sharma had dropped in at army chief’s office on December 21, 2011 to ask him what his plans on the age issue were.

Top government sources said the army chief made it clear to the defence secretary that the age issue was only related to his honour as the leader of the 1.1-million strong army and had nothing to do with an extra year in office, which he would get if Antony accepted May 10, 1951 as his date of birth.

Two dates of birth exist in army records for the army chief: May 10, 1950 and 1951.

Even though Antony rejected Gen Singh’s statutory complaint, the army chief met finance minister Pranab Mukherjee, who advised him against going to court.

The Prime Minister and the national security advisor are also in the loop on the matter.

Gen Singh till now has no intentions of taking his age issue to the court, but sources said the he was feeling humiliated by a “section of the defence ministry”. He told Sharma that he was being painted as a villain by the ministry.

The chief has already had some three meetings with the key interlocutors and had met Mukherjee immediately after Antony had rejected the statutory complaint.

The government is trying hard to find a civilian solution to the crisis so that there is no division in the Indian army.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Jan 2012 07:09

chetak wrote:
The babus who are denying this already have OROP for themselves for many many years now. Those shameless buggers first look after themselves onlee.

And why MS branch did not decide in his favour when Army had a chance to set things right??

btw OROP is not a concept followed in Civil.Its for Armed forces only.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jan 2012 14:15

chaanakya wrote:
chetak wrote:
The babus who are denying this already have OROP for themselves for many many years now. Those shameless buggers first look after themselves onlee.
And why MS branch did not decide in his favour when Army had a chance to set things right??

btw OROP is not a concept followed in Civil.Its for Armed forces only.

The pension of the IAS retirees of any vintage is revised at intervals and all of them get paid the same amount. This is OROP. Call it by any name you want.

This issue is not one for the MS branch but it's a MOD issue. MOD==babus.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jan 2012 14:18

Manish_Sharma wrote:Maroof Raza is presenting General Shri V.K. Singh's side on TIMESNOW very beautifully, please watch it!

The Air Marshal was a big let down.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Jan 2012 14:23

Chaanakya, Chetak:

Your points are both valid, but you miss the central issue. Post VI CPC, all Group A gazetted civil service officers receive Non Functional Financial Upgradation to the level of Additional Secretary for pay and pension purposes, thanks to the NFFU scheme. This level (same salary as a Lt Gen), automatically receives OROP. So, since all civil service officers now reach AS level, they automatically all also have OROP. Simple. Its a back door OROP, but its OROP nevertheless.

All India service officers (IAS, IPS, Indian Forest Service) do not take part in the NFFU scheme, since they automatically reach these levels of pay and pension ANYWAY.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Jan 2012 17:22

Well, in any case I strongly feel that OROP should be give forthwith.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Jan 2012 17:30

chetak wrote:

The pension of the IAS retirees of any vintage is revised at intervals and all of them get paid the same amount. This is OROP. Call it by any name you want.

This issue is not one for the MS branch but it's a MOD issue. MOD==babus.

As you please.

It was MS branch which messed up when MOD asked for it and AG Branch had requested for reconciliation with MS Branch. MS Branch under control of COAS did it for reasons best known to the officers at that time, some of which are court marshaled and found guilty. When Army knows that babuz would play with it why not resolve issues within themselves and present unified picture to MOD. There is another point : why present COAS gave any acceptance letter for wrong DOB?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Jan 2012 18:24

Machhal Brigade organises medical camp at T-Suntwari village

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Jan 2012 19:14

chetak wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:Maroof Raza is presenting General Shri V.K. Singh's side on TIMESNOW very beautifully, please watch it!

The Air Marshal was a big let down.

What is not being discussed is that COAS is being forced in order to favour the officer who could be his immediate successor and who happens to be distant relative of the eminent economist. Babuz are unnecessarily being castigated.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 03 Jan 2012 19:43

Bofors 2? - Rs 600 crore "business charges" in a missile deal, in the context of the date of birth controversy:

Controversy about an army chief’s date of birth might seem like a minor thing to rake up against Antony, but more controversial is another charge: that his ministry allowed an Israeli firm to bill a humongous Rs 600 crore as “business charges” in a Rs 10,000 crore missile deal with Israel Aerospace Industries.

The story, broken by Josy Joseph in DNA newspaper three years ago, happened under Antony’s watch (Read the full story here). It should be recalled that Rajiv Gandhi was tainted by the Bofors case, where Swedish Radio announced that Rs 64 crore was paid to middlemen as bribes to secure the deal. Now, under a regime presided over by his widow Sonia, and under a ministry headed by “honest” Antony, we have an unexplained sum of Rs 600 crore being paid as “business charges” by the UPA government to an Israeli arms manufacturer. Till date, the government has not explained what this money is about.

The Indian Army chief is fighting a lone battle to prevent his tenure from being curtailed on doubts over his exact birth date. Reuters

DNA, quoting insiders, wrote in March 2009: “Insiders suggest that the cabinet committee on security (CCS), which cleared the (Israeli missile) deal, and the defence ministry were either complicit or gullible in accepting the arguments forwarded by IAI while levying these hefty ‘business charges’. It is unprecedented in a contract of this nature, which is supposed to be a joint development project.”

At that time, the CCS had Manmohan Singh, Pranab Mukherjee, P Chidambaram, AK Antony and Montek Singh Ahluwalia as its members.

Could this kind of decision to pay Rs 600 crore as “business charges” have been taken by so many “honest” people without political concurrence from the top?

If Antony saw something wrong in it, he kept it to himself. And the same is the case with controversy involving the birth date of the army chief – who is widely seen as a straightforward man who brought some corrupt officers to book. The Sukna land scam is one of them.

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/anton ... 70699.html

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Jan 2012 20:43

Truth is a scarce commodity in UPA II.
If SC wants It could decide quickly.
Don't know what political backing he has, but he come from true blue background and enjoys massive support in Army unlike his predecessor.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Jan 2012 21:43

Controversy about an army chief’s date of birth might seem like a minor thing to rake up against Antony, but more controversial is another charge: that his ministry allowed an Israeli firm to bill a humongous Rs 600 crore as “business charges” in a Rs 10,000 crore missile deal with Israel Aerospace Industries.

So, now MRSAM also goes into cold storage?

Sharma · Post by **Sharma** » 03 Jan 2012 22:06

An old story with New Characters:

Gen Kapoor Didn't like Gen Singh (could be various reasons)
Gen Singh sent to Eastern Command
Gen Singh still became COAS
Gen Singh started picking Gen Kapoor's gang
Gen Singh inching closer to Gen Kapoor's neck
Gen Kapoor ran to his old all weather pal. Ch. Bhupinder Singh Hudda, CM of Haryana
Hudda saab saved Gen Kapoor but Gen Singh continued with his mission to "clean" army of dirty elements.
Hudda saab discussed this "undiscipline" and "non-offr like" attitude of Gen Singh with his masters.
......censored.....
......censored.....
Gen Singh in trouble.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 03 Jan 2012 22:16

VKS should have gone to SC at least couple of months ago. Why did he wait this long as SC is not predictable. The next one is having conflict of interest with his son married to a Paki and living in Dubai.

Sharma · Post by **Sharma** » 03 Jan 2012 22:46

Muppalla wrote:VKS should have gone to SC at least couple of months ago. Why did he wait this long as SC is not predictable. The next one is having conflict of interest with his son married to a Paki and living in Dubai.

Last I knew Gen Singh had 2 daughters and no son.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 03 Jan 2012 22:52

^
Muppalla was referring to the next one in line to Succeed VKS

Sharma · Post by **Sharma** » 03 Jan 2012 23:12

Rupesh wrote:^
Muppalla was referring to the next one in line to Succeed VKS

OOPS...Sorry Muppalla

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 03 Jan 2012 23:46

Muppalla wrote:VKS should have gone to SC at least couple of months ago. Why did he wait this long as SC is not predictable. The next one is having conflict of interest with his son married to a Paki and living in Dubai.

VKS could not have gone to court before exhausting departmental remedies. The court would not have entertained his plea on that grounds only. Only after rejection of his statutory complaint he has the opportunity to plead judicial intervention.

chaanakya wrote: As you please.

It was MS branch which messed up when MOD asked for it and AG Branch had requested for reconciliation with MS Branch. MS Branch under control of COAS did it for reasons best known to the officers at that time, some of which are court marshaled and found guilty. When Army knows that babuz would play with it why not resolve issues within themselves and present unified picture to MOD. There is another point : why present COAS gave any acceptance letter for wrong DOB?

IIRC this was discussed before in the same forum, when it was brought out that VKS would have jeopardised his chances of becoming a Lt Gen even, had he not written that letter to the COAS then. And it does not take a wee but away from VKS position of strength, as he explained his predicament in his further correspondence with the COAS and MS then. The second article in following link shows...
http://indianmilitarynews.wordpress.com ... ak-Kapoor/

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Jan 2012 18:15

Army Camp at Ziran, Gulmarg organises 'Watan Ki Sair' for children in valley

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 04 Jan 2012 23:30

Wonder what the next in line will give the INC govt. that it so badly wants the current one to go by May?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 05 Jan 2012 00:20

In all probability the DOB issue will see a General going to the court. If govt accedes to VKS's extension then BS will go to court. If VKS accedes to Govt's suggestion of honourable retirement in May 12 then KTP will go to court. As it is if govt stays dumbwitted VKS is going to court.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 05 Jan 2012 07:18

First Ceasefire Violation with love from Pak in 2012

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 05 Jan 2012 08:52

merlin wrote:Wonder what the next in line will give the INC govt. that it so badly wants the current one to go by May?

That is one of the right questions no one asked

Remember not so long back, there was one chief in a "research" establishment of GoI, guy was due to finish his tenure in the beginning of next year, but the guy voluntarily retired just before the end of that year. And a new person was appointed as the chief. Incidentally this new person was about to retire at the end of that year, and if our old guy would not have "voluntarily" retired this new person would have never got a chance to be the chief.

Guess who facilitated this whole soap opera! You will be charmed.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 05 Jan 2012 14:24

It seems there is enormous pressure on the COAS to quit even before this 31 May. The trumpeting in the media of impending succession has got even shriller and louder. All agencies of the govt including intelligence have indicated that VKS has his back to the wall and no where else to go except choose the honourable exit being offered to him. In this the govt has handed him a weapon by implicitly accepting that VKS is factually correct. This is the only weapon he has got now with options to -

firstly -fight back with this weapon in hand == go to court and become a martyr, or
secondly -shoot himself in the foot == accept govt's offer and retire on 31 May 12, or
lastly -resign.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Jan 2012 14:40

merlin wrote:Wonder what the next in line will give the INC govt. that it so badly wants the current one to go by May?

Sinister accomodation on siachen and soft border issues. It's only the Indian Army between him and that elusive nobel prize, the very highest achievment, the pinnacle of glory and the guarantee of imortality for a mundane and ordinary babu promoted far beyond his meagre capabilities.

Time is unfortunately, not on his side, hence the old man in a hurry situation.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Jan 2012 14:45

Boreas wrote:
merlin wrote:Wonder what the next in line will give the INC govt. that it so badly wants the current one to go by May?
That is one of the right questions no one asked

Remember not so long back, there was one chief in a "research" establishment of GoI, guy was due to finish his tenure in the beginning of next year, but the guy voluntarily retired just before the end of that year. And a new person was appointed as the chief. Incidentally this new person was about to retire at the end of that year, and if our old guy would not have "voluntarily" retired this new person would have never got a chance to be the chief.

Guess who facilitated this whole soap opera! You will be charmed.

And for what consideration??

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 05 Jan 2012 18:33

chetak wrote:
merlin wrote:Wonder what the next in line will give the INC govt. that it so badly wants the current one to go by May?

Sinister accomodation on siachen and soft border issues. It's only the Indian Army between him and that elusive nobel prize, the very highest achievment, the pinnacle of glory and the guarantee of imortality for a mundane and ordinary babu promoted far beyond his meagre capabilities.

Time is unfortunately, not on his side, hence the old man in a hurry situation.

My CT is the same exactly. Word for word.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 05 Jan 2012 19:55

The only party ready to milk this are the Akalis, who are already talking of wanting a Sikh in the job.
What would GoP want from this? Apart from a pliable chief like the pliable heads of other institutions.... Ok a pliable chief who won't raise a finger when the govt plays dirty and imposes emergency...but hey, that's not happening, right?!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2012 22:56

I think the legacy of Curzon-Kitchner fight has to be broken about one hundred and ten years later. The SC should decide and not let politicial machinations of the party in power interfere with Indian military promotions.

Back ground:
http://www.indianetzone.com/35/curzon_k ... _india.htm

and
This was so important that NYT had an article in those days!

How Kitchner won

JLN thought he was the successor of the Viceroy of India * and needed to cut the Indian military down in size to avenge for the Curzon's discomfiture. This has been the guiding principle of the INC view of Indian Army.

* Recall JLN's house is called Teen Murti House aka Commander-In-Chief 's house and is now a Nehru Museum.

if anyone thinks what am I smoking? Here is Uneven Cohen writing on the same subject!

http://www.jstor.org/pss/177807

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2012 04:58

Telegraph Inter view with Gen Singh

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120106/j ... 970136.jsp

One question why did the Mil Secy branch record his DOB differently than the Adjunct General branch?

In the ministry, bureaucrats say that the dispute was a product of Army Headquarters itself. The adjutant general’s branch, the keeper of personnel records, has Gen. Singh’s DoB registered as May 10, 1951. The adjutant general’s branch is the authority for such records.

But the military secretary’s branch, responsible for transfers and postings, has Gen. Singh’s DoB registered as May 10, 1950, a year earlier.

If AG is the authority for such records, whats stopping the MS branch from taking note of the authority of records?

And note the civil-mil relations angle brought in by the paper.

The Telegraph: What do you think of the difference of opinion regarding your date of birth? You have made repeated complaints. Does this threaten to disrupt governance?

Gen. Singh: It has always been a question of integrity and honour and nothing else. Whatever complaints were put up was to ensure that systems and processes remain intact.

TT: There have been doubts that this may threaten the relationship between the civilian government and the military.

Gen. Singh: This has nothing to do with civil-military relations. But these are issues that could have been handled better.

TT: By contesting the defence ministry order on your date of birth, have you risked the rules?

Gen. Singh: I have scrupulously maintained the procedures and decorum laid down in the services. Even if there are personal issues that I have been agitated about, it has always been with the feeling that the organisation is always supreme.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 06 Jan 2012 06:55

On the Time Now debate, General Bakshi and Maroof Raza suggested a way out in which the GOI can keep its desired succession without tarnishing Gen VK Singh's rep: accept his DOB but promote him to the post of India's first Chief of Defence Staff (CDS).

But that's never going to happen.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 Jan 2012 16:02

Indian Army denies Delina firing

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jan 2012 16:52

ramana wrote:One question why did the Mil Secy branch record his DOB differently than the Adjunct General branch?

Ramana some retd Army officer of higher rank in times now debate yesterday was suggesting that it was some internal rivalry that led to this , which is to say some one did not deliberately reconciled those dates and was expecting this to happen.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jan 2012 22:47

Self before service - Gen Singh's age row: Biggest casualty is the reputation of Armed forces

Age row: General must realise his only legacy will be a mindless battle far from the battlefield'

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2012 23:14

Austin wrote:Self before service - Gen Singh's age row: Biggest casualty is the reputation of Armed forces

Age row: General must realise his only legacy will be a mindless battle far from the battlefield'

Not really. Its the politicians of the day and not the Armed Forces that are in bad light.
Fifty years ago same party messed with Indian Army promotions system and failed in 1962 China war and paniced asking for US help. What they got was fake Iodex balm to soothe their battered egoes from US amabssador while the troops were fighting in sneakers in the high Himalayas with valor.

This is psy-ops of blaming the victims while giving the perpetrators a free pass.

While its being cast as a civilans restoring order to the military I see it more as civilianasses trying to humilate the Army again and agian and repeating the sordid saga of the fifties. And I see the same party politicians and their cotereis in media supporting htem. The current Indian Army is a national army. The civilians should stop the quixotic fighting the windmills of the British Raj.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 06 Jan 2012 23:23

WOW. The baboons and their corrupt political masters say the sky is green and are now upset that someone now has the temerity to say, NO it's blue. To see these parasites swinging from the longest yardarm is almost worth having a military coup. The fact that the english press in India is anti-Hindu and anti-military was always well known to me. I just had no idea how much it must be owned by political (read Kangress) interensts. Haack Thoo

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jan 2012 23:44

Ramana , I was watching the News Hour Debate yesterday and panelist were mix from Armed forces ie Army/Airforce , Bureaucrats ( ex Cabinet Sec ) and few others ....... the opinions were mix and were divided , the Airforce person Ahluwalia had a different pov and said IA chief should resign ..I saw Salman Kurshid saying rules are rules and the ex Cabinet Sec was saying its normal to have such age issue in different department and government takes the final call. One ex army officer was even suggesting it was an inter-army rivalry to get the chief ! Arun Jaitley says it should have been resolved behind closed doors. So in the end no matter who is right or wrong .... but its one big mess.

I hope they dont do a Vishnu Bhagwat like thing with VK Singh .....get RAW involved and play dirty games..... and then make it look like disobeying civilian authority.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2012 23:55

See even you are confused. The real issue is the DOB is based on birth certificate and not on passport or something else. The civilians are trying to remove the General by citing the wrong date of birth. All other things are not germane. It smacks of how Gen Thimmaya was eased out to bring in Gen Thapar? Bm Kaul and led to 1962 debacle fifty years ago.

How is the AF guy germane to the discussion? Read PC Lal's book and the regular IAF worry about IA dominance if a CDS is appointed. I would discount his views as interesting and nice to know.

The guy restored the Indan Army honor in one year after it was scandal ridden under earlier chief.
Compare this to the way AH anti-corruption movement was neutered in same time! the lokpal bill is now Dhokapal bill.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 07 Jan 2012 05:56

Austin wrote:Self before service - Gen Singh's age row: Biggest casualty is the reputation of Armed forces

Age row: General must realise his only legacy will be a mindless battle far from the battlefield'

India Today and Aroon Purie have no credibility on this issue. Why don't they examine the motives of the men in government who want Gen. VKS to retire 10 months early? Gen. VKS has a duty to stand up for the truth and pursue justice, even at a cost to his own peace of mind, and that is indeed what he is doing. If the government can get away with treating the army chief unfairly, then everyone in uniform will feel the pain and disgrace. Fight the good fight General VKS, and don't let these cynical and unethical power brokers in the media distract you.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 07 Jan 2012 06:17

Since Aroon Purie wishes to remind Gen VKS about the inscription in the halls of the IMA, perhaps someone should remind Aroon Purie about what all school boys are taught on day one: don't cheat! And this guy has the cheek to command Gen. VKS on how to behave!

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/cult ... steal.html