Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 18 Jan 2012 19:26

Lastly, how come no one is saying that the Defence Secretary, The AG, the Law Minister, the Defence Minister et all should resign despite every Tom, Dick and Harry saying that things should never have come this far! One Lt General was going on on NDTV (I think) about how VKS's action had affected the morale of the Indian Army. You bet it has - most officers I know feel that finally someone is standing up and fighting, and finally there's some Calcium in the backbone


Kunal,absolutely! Any other PM ,not our "Post Mortem" zero,would've summoned his Def. Min./Def. Sec. and read the riot act out to them.In fact,wen Gen.Singh wrote to the PM,as stated in the reports,it was the PM's responsibility to have resolved the matter asap without any breath of controversy,since it was such a sensitive issue.Those who are accusing Gen. Singh of neglecting his duty and howling for his blood,saying that decisions about artillery,etc. and delays are due to him,and that he is spending more time on this critical issue than his responsibilities,will cut no ice,as we all know how artillery trials were repeatedly repeated ,becauee of babudom blacklisting a manufacturer,sending the whole prcess back to sq. 1,long before Gen. Singh even became COAS! What were his ilustrious predecessors,both within the IA,the MOD and the Politicos doing during the last decade,the era of our "Post Mortem" Zero?

In fact if anyone has truly been guilty of "dereliction of duty" and should be cashiered,it should be both the PM and DM!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby merlin » 18 Jan 2012 19:34

Sachin wrote:
merlin wrote: A mere advantageous DOB will not secure you promotions.

Will DOB matter when there are two potential candidates, equal in all other aspects (ACRs, past performance records etc.)?


My understanding is that there usually won't be. But in a rare instance that this happens it will be seniority.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 18 Jan 2012 19:37

Austin wrote:
chetak wrote:There is no doubt that his real and legal DOB is 1951. All the legal and documentary evidence is there to attest to this fact.


Even if that were to be true and I am sure he would have many evidence to prove it , but if some of his promotions are indeed based on 1950 DOB and if court accepts 1951 as his true DOB for all promotions , then it would be interesting to see how will 1950 affect the career ( or in past was effected ) of other people waiting to be promoted , of course another posibility is it has no impact no matter if its 1950 or 51.



DOB is relevant only if there is minimum or maximum qualifying age or residual service at the time of promotion. It was not material in his case as he has 2 1/2 years of service which was adequate. If his DOB was 1951 he would have 3 1/2 years and he would still be eligible and he was senior most in the panel. So what else could have been affected. If he retires by May 2012 then Gen xxx would become senior most in the next panel and if he retires by may 2013 then Gen YYY would become senior most in the panel Of course Govt may not choose the senior most but that is unlikely. Now Govt "wants" Gen xxx to become COAS and does not want YYY. Now this is pure speculation but then there appears to be a predetermined line of succession like Mughalia Sultanate and this in effect means Govt wants XXX and not YYY because of ZZZ. This ZZZ could be relative competence or pliability or anything else.

This is not a question of change of DOB or even correction sought by VKS. All along he was promoted on the basis of 1951 by the Govt. It was only in 2006 that this issue was raised and a settled matter was sought to be unsettled. The undertaking means nothing.First Govt should explain to the court why 1951 was being considered all along and why it was sought to be changed by the govt at the fag end of one's career.

There is no question of resigning on the issue of going to court. If that is the criteria hen many more should resign in civil service. He should also serve the full term whatever it may be.

There is a first for everything, it may be shocking but if it is to be avoided then govt should adopt righteous path and seen to be adopting such a path in future.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 18 Jan 2012 19:42

Sachin wrote:
merlin wrote: A mere advantageous DOB will not secure you promotions.

Will DOB matter when there are two potential candidates, equal in all other aspects (ACRs, past performance records etc.)?


no.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 18 Jan 2012 19:47

merlin wrote: A mere advantageous DOB will not secure you promotions.

rohitvats wrote:
Sachin wrote:Will DOB matter when there are two potential candidates, equal in all other aspects (ACRs, past performance records etc.)?


Yes. The senior gets the post.

no at all, seniority is not determined on the basis of DOB. It is a selection post so irrespective of seniority, the committee(in this case CCA) can recommend anyone in the panel. Senior would in all likelihood would get he post. There was one example when Gen S K Sinha was superseded and he resigned and given Governorship. Since then panel Seniority is followed.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 18 Jan 2012 20:02

^ Exceptions exist but the part about DOB being a factor (other metrics being the same) is true. Actually more often than not the next senior most candidate after the outgoing chief gets picked.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2012 20:59

Pranav, You can be better and not contribute right?

Rajrang, Before he is a soldier he is a citizen. And as a citizen he has the Consititution to protect him.
Its his Constitiutional right to seek Court remedy to redress.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 18 Jan 2012 21:03

VK Singh to SC: Army chief has a right to retire with dignity

NEW DELHI: An Army chief "has a right to retire with dignity", Gen V K Singh has pleaded before the Supreme Court while accepting the government's right to determine his tenure. Challenging as "illegal and arbitrary" the rejection of his statutory complaint to defence minister A K Antony on December 30 last for accepting May 10, 1951 as his date of birth, Gen Singh has said that this was also violative of his fundamental rights.

Seeking the quashing of this order, the Army chief has pleaded in a 68-page petition that the government be directed to treat May 10, 1951 as his date of birth and "grant all consequential reliefs thereto". Gen Singh's unprecedented action in dragging the government to the apex court followed the ministry's insistence that May 10, 1950 would be treated his official date of birth and that he would consequently retire on May 31 this year.

In his petition, he has stated that he wished to make it "abundantly clear at this stage" that regardless of the result of the petition or the controversy surrounding his age, the government "has the right to determine the tenure of his office of the Chief of the Army Staff".

Gen Singh stated that the government's action and conduct in refusing to accept his contention on his birth date was affecting his image before the general public and the armed forces. It was his right to have a "dignified life", he pleaded in the petition, adding that an army chief has "a right to retire with dignity".

Referring to the ministry's orders of December 30 and earlier rejecting his case, the Army chief has said that these orders have "conveniently ignored" his matriculation certificate, entire service record including entry into service, promotions and annual confidential reports. He has stated that being a highly decorated officer, he had received all his awards, decorations and promotions as per the date of birth being 10.5.1951.

Gen Singh has enclosed voluminous documents and records with the petition in support of his stand that his year of birth was 1951. However, he has said that in an application dated 29.7.1965 for admission to National Defence Academy (NDA) course he had, as a 14-year school boy, inadvertently filled his date of birth as 10.5.1950.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 18 Jan 2012 21:24

ramana wrote:Rajrang, Before he is a soldier he is a citizen. And as a citizen he has the Consititution to protect him.
Its his Constitiutional right to seek Court remedy to redress.

No one disputes his "right" to do it. People have different about weather he is "right" to do so.

Very high ranking servants of the state have a burden upon them, like Caesar's wife. Irrespective of the rights and wrongs, merits and demerits of the case - for the man on the street the perspective is that the army chief is filing a court case to serve for one extra year. It is unseemly.

The services are instilled with the concept of obeying orders, if needed to the death, and unquestioned obedience to the civil overseers. Now it seems that this is true unless its the COAS and his tenure - then it is OK to dispute and argue. Had the COAS been an Lt Col or a NCO this whole case might have had the complete backing of everyone. But the COAS fighting for his tenure?! The correctness and merits of the case are irrelevant.

The armed forces are still viewed as a one of the last "honest" state institutions is a sea of rampant corruption/nepotism. This image is being tarnished.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby saadhak » 18 Jan 2012 21:29

This was front page headline news in today's DNA print edition.
PM leads charge to fix Gen
A deceptive silence descended on South Block, which houses the defence ministry and the prime minister’s office, as marathon meetings took place between defence minister AK Antony and PM Manmohan Singh on Tuesday to decide how to react to General VK Singh’s petition in the Supreme Court seeking a change in his date of birth.
Antony met Manmohan Singh who cancelled all appointments to deal with the issue. The PM had made up his mind on the issue many months ago when over 20 MPs met him to lobby for the army chief. He, a source told DNA, sternly told the MPs not to interfere.
On Tuesday, the PM stuck to his position and asked Antony to plan a strategy for Friday when the case is likely to come up for hearing.
The government’s brief caveat filed on Tuesday in the Supreme Court only pleads for a hearing at the time of taking up Gen Singh’s petition.
Antony called back defence secretary Sashikant Sharma who was abroad. They and other senior defence ministry officials met for five hours in South Block and decided to look at a few options. They also decided that Lt Gen Bikram Singh, the Eastern Army commander, would succeed Gen VK Singh irrespective of what happened in court.
The government fired its first salvo by filing its caveat, keeping in mind that it needs time to examine the general’s voluminous petition. This, a source said, will help to ensure that the court does not issue a notice to the government on the first day of hearing. The strategy for now is to delay the issue while the government goes about appointing Lt Gen Bikram Singh as the army chief after May 31.
Later, Antony met attorney general GE Vahanvati. The thrust of their argument will be based on Gen VK Singh’s agreement in writing to accept the government’s decision on his date of birth before taking over as the chief. The government believes it has a strong case because of the written submission. It has also factored in an early resignation by Singh, in which case it will still go ahead and appoint Bikram Singh.
Gen Singh’s lawyer Pawan Bali told DNA that he would not mention the matter before chief justice SH Kapadia for an early hearing and would go by the normal listing of cases.
Leading lawyer PP Rao felt the army chief had been misguided on moving the highest court on a “service matter”. He should have moved the Armed Forces Tribunal first to get his date of birth ratified as May 10, 1951, rather than 1950, he said. “Which fundamental right has been violated?” Rao said. “How could he invoke Article 32 and move the apex court for redress of his personal grievance?”
Former Delhi high court justice RS Sodhi had a similar view. “The better option for him was to move the high court.” He also felt the tribunal was the right place to settle a dispute relating to date of birth.
Earlier, efforts for an amicable solution failed despite private meetings between the army chief and finance minister Pranab Mukherjee. A former director general of military intelligence, who was VK Singh’s course mate at the National Defence Academy, served as interlocutor between him and the government, but those efforts also failed.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby anirban_aim » 18 Jan 2012 21:33

Hitting the General below the belt

http://blogs.hindustantimes.com/inside-story/2012/01/17/hitting-the-general-below-the-belt/


Before Army chief General Vijay Kumar Singh’s doughty daughter landed up at the Supreme Court registry to file a writ petition on behalf of her father on Monday evening, the officer wrote to Defence Minister A K Antony that he was taking legal recourse in the age issue.

General Singh informed Antony that he had been forced to go to the court to prevent a possible adverse legal fallout of another petition filed before by the Rohtak chapter of the so-called Grenadiers Association and with which he had no truck in any way. It is another matter that a court insider leaked the news of General Singh going to court to TV news channels much before his letter reached Antony on Monday.


General Singh was advised by his lawyers that his legal options on the date of birth issue would be closed if the Supreme Court took up the Grenadiers Association’s petition as it was rather insidious and factually inaccurate in many places. For instance, the association’s petition stated that Lt. General Bikramjeet Singh, presently Eastern Army Commander and in line for the Army Chief’s job, was related to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.


Given such inaccuracies, the Supreme Court in all probability would have taken a rather poor view of the submission and would have foreclosed all options for General Singh.



it would be interesting to shed light on the behind the scenes and unsuccessful dialogue between him and the government over what the he terms as an honour and integrity issue.

General Singh in his petition has sought interim relief from the court over the rejection of his statutory complaint on the age issue by the Defence Minister on December 30, 2011. After General Singh filed his statutory complaint before Antony on August 25, 2011, he met UPA wise man and Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee and told him what he had done.


Mukherjee looked at General Singh and said that he took this statutory complaint as an opportunity and not a challenge for the government. General Singh told Mukherjee that the complaint was only aimed at rectifying his age and not programmed to increase his tenure as Army Chief — a matter which is the prerogative of the government


For the next four months, a key government interlocutor and a close friend of Singh played the messenger in the hope that an amicable compromise could be reached. The interlocutor failed. Not because his or General Singh’s intentions were not honourable but because the UPA has now acquired the habit of speaking in multiple voices.


The final straw for the Chief was a series of slanderous media articles this month which led him to believe that they were being orchestrated by the Defence Ministry.


Before General Singh went on an official visit to Myanmar on January 5 he met National Security Advisor Shiv Shanker Menon. Sharp as he is, Menon suggested that the government would come out with a statement making it amply clear that age was not the issue and that it wanted General Singh for other services preferably in the civilian set-up. As the idea was fair, General Singh agreed to it with a single caveat. He said as long as the government agreed that his date of birth was 1951 he was even willing to resign and pave way for whomsoever the UPA wanted to appoint as Army Chief. General Singh returned from Myanmar on January 9 and met Mukherjee, who assured him that he was on the job and solution soon would be found to the age issue.


In the meantime, senior UPA ministers including Antony, P Chidambaram and Salman Khurshid prepared for stage two by calling General Singh a very competent soldier. A solution was in sight and the interlocutor was toiling hard, but then came the series of slanted media articles, which the Army suspects the Defence Ministry of inspiring and that hit at General Singh’s personal integrity. A day before the Army Day on January 15, Antony gave a dressing down to all his officers and made it clear that not a word should be leaked by his ministry. But the damage had been done.


General Singh was awarded the Yudh Seva Medal in 1989-90, the Ati Vasisht Seva Medal in 2006 and the Param Vishisht Seva Medal in 2009 by the President of India with his date of birth May 10, 1951 mentioned on them, but still the inspired media articles took pot shots at him. After hosting At-Home for the President, the Prime Minister and Congress president Sonia Gandhi, General Singh decided to take on his detractors. The writ petition was drafted by 3.00 am on Monday morning and submitted before the Court on the same day.


The above quotes are from post was made by Shishir Gupta.

I have no way to verify the claims made in this post by the author or if St. Antony really gave a dressing down or made love to his oficers but if true, then it would appear that certain Mr. Sandy Unny & his boss Mr. Poorie Bhaji went overboard with the hack job!! and queered the pitch for every body.
Last edited by anirban_aim on 18 Jan 2012 21:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 18 Jan 2012 21:34

Badar wrote:<SNIP>The armed forces are still viewed as a one of the last "honest" state institutions is a sea of rampant corruption/nepotism. This image is being tarnished.


By whom?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2012 21:34

I dont see it as VK Singh fighting to extend his tenure but as citizen fighting the government deciding on selective evidence. This is the arbitrary rights of the "King" that are being questioned here. The idea of the Magna Carta is based on the basic issue that even the King has to follow the law. The King can't selectively apply it or decide to follow it per his wish.

-----
I see the DNA report confirms my take its the King's decision.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 18 Jan 2012 21:39

So all this kavayad was for BS

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 18 Jan 2012 21:42

rohitvats wrote:
Badar wrote:<SNIP>The armed forces are still viewed as a one of the last "honest" state institutions is a sea of rampant corruption/nepotism. This image is being tarnished.


By whom?


rohitvats, does it matter by whom? Perhaps by those who are still seen as honest or those that are seen as fundamentally corrupt. How many people see the nitty-gritties and follow the case like some here on BR? The reality is the one column newspaper report followed by a shake of the head and then onto the latest doings on the sports page.

The question is who is still vested into the notion that the image of the army is worth preserving, whatever the personal/institutional costs?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby saadhak » 18 Jan 2012 21:45

Badar wrote:Very high ranking servants of the state have a burden upon them, like Caesar's wife. Irrespective of the rights and wrongs, merits and demerits of the case - for the man on the street the perspective is that the army chief is filing a court case to serve for one extra year. It is unseemly.

Badar sir, -- the very post above quotes
In his petition, he has stated that he wished to make it "abundantly clear at this stage" that regardless of the result of the petition or the controversy surrounding his age, the government "has the right to determine the tenure of his office of the Chief of the Army Staff".

The chief pre-empted these accusations. So the above clarification in his petition should put any accusations of fighting for extra tenure at rest (for those men on the street who are willing to listen - for the others, it would be "kuch to log kahenge, logon ka kaam hai kehna")
With the stubbornness he encountered from the GoI, it would be fair to assume that he had read the writing on the wall that regardless of whether or not his DOB is corrected, there is no way he is going to be able to continue beyond May 31.
As he has mentioned repeatedly, it is a matter of him setting the record straight and doing all he can to ensure history does not call him a liar for games other people have played.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2012 21:47

INC thru its coterie is monarchising the govt. We are at an Ocatavius Caeser moment. They already dynastified the INC. Now the services are the next step.

Adm Bhagwat is right. Its a monarchial idea to have a line of succession. This idea is itself against the Consitituion which says India is a Rebuplic.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2012 21:48

Is there a line of succession for the Cabinet Secretary? Maybe its hidden.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby krisna » 18 Jan 2012 21:54

Badar wrote:
Very high ranking servants of the state have a burden upon them, like Caesar's wife. Irrespective of the rights and wrongs, merits and demerits of the case - for the man on the street the perspective is that the army chief is filing a court case to serve for one extra year. It is unseemly.

The services are instilled with the concept of obeying orders, if needed to the death, and unquestioned obedience to the civil overseers. Now it seems that this is true unless its the COAS and his tenure - then it is OK to dispute and argue. Had the COAS been an Lt Col or a NCO this whole case might have had the complete backing of everyone.
.


Does the definition of the bolded words include only the COAS or others.
The man on the streets have been crying
1) for stringent action on corruption scandals engulfing the country
2) humiliation of defence forces
3) degradation of institutions like IB/RAW/IPS/IAS and many more
4) action on NGOs trying to scr*w our nation and waging wars.
5) action on marxists who are waging wars on our nation.
6) action on terrorists instead they are busy creating new ones
7) worsening the relations between followers of different religions

I can go on.

Does the above equate for an upright officer asking for correction of his DOB which was not his fault.
Why are the high ranking servants not intrested in settling the issue since 2006 when this happened.
But the COAS fighting for his tenure?! The correctness and merits of the case are irrelevant.

totally wrong. COAS can fight for his tenure as he has been unjustly treated. His DOB has been falsified by some. They have to be booked under whatever laws available. The GOI functionaries who did not treat his complaints fairly have to be brought to task. Responsibility have to be fixed.
Defence forces are an very important institution who have to be carefully handled and given due importance due to the work they do. This is non negotiable. They play with life and death to keep us in peace.

The armed forces are still viewed as a one of the last "honest" state institutions is a sea of rampant corruption/nepotism. This image is being tarnished

which high ranking servants are tarnishing the image of defence forces.
where is the indignation.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 18 Jan 2012 21:56

Badar wrote:
rohitvats wrote:quote="Badar">><SNIP>The armed forces are still viewed as a one of the last "honest" state institutions is a sea of rampant corruption/nepotism. This image is being tarnished.

By whom?


rohitvats, does it matter by whom?



If the institutions are being degraded by the party in power, should the functionaries of the govt roll over and play dead?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 18 Jan 2012 22:03

badar

do you believe it??

Do majority of the people on this forum believe it.

So now assuming that we were able to reason I would assume the common man if gets through the barrage of biased lifafa articles will be able to reason out too.

So its more important to combat the Unnithans and soms and others who have twisted the headlines in a certain manner

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 18 Jan 2012 22:17

saadhak wrote:The chief pre-empted these accusations. So the above clarification in his petition should put any accusations of fighting for extra tenure at rest (for those men on the street who are willing to listen - for the others, it would be "kuch to log kahenge, logon ka kaam hai kehna")

He has not pre-empted anything. He has just acknowledged that he serves at the pleasure of the President viz the Cabinet. This is not a concession he has made or a comprise - he has acknowledged a raw fact.

With the stubbornness he encountered from the GoI, it would be fair to assume that he had read the writing on the wall that regardless of whether or not his DOB is corrected, there is no way he is going to be able to continue beyond May 31.

There is no guarantee that he would serve till 31st May. He could be relieved tonight because he no longer enjoys the confidence of the government and the government would be entirely within its right to do so. Naturally firing him now would make things even worse.

As he has mentioned repeatedly, it is a matter of him setting the record straight and doing all he can to ensure history does not call him a liar for games other people have played.

Is it possible that he could have retired and then filed a case to set the record straight? Or he could have retired symbolically on April 31st well within his tenure from any angle and then "court mein band bajatai"? He could have still cleared his name and kept his honor. A retired chief has a lot more freedom than a serving one.

If the institutions are being degraded by the party in power, should the functionaries of the govt roll over and play dead?

Of course not! Fight the good fight. But is this the best cause to rally around? Is "one man's tenure" the best place to challenge the govt. functionaries? Do no worthier causes exist? Is there some symbolically profound thing I am missing about this "I should retire next year" saga?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby saadhak » 18 Jan 2012 22:31

There is no guarantee that he would serve till 31st May. He could be relieved tonight because he no longer enjoys the confidence of the government and the government would be entirely within its right to do so. Naturally firing him now would make things even worse.
:
Is it possible that he could have retired and then filed a case to set the record straight? Or he could have retired symbolically on April 31st well within his tenure from any angle and then "court mein band bajatai"? He could have still cleared his name and kept his honor. A retired chief has a lot more freedom than a serving one.


I guess what's got GoI's goat is that the chief being firm on setting the record straight denies them the use of his false DOB as a fig leaf to cut short his tenure.
If GoI cuts short his tenure, they will be exercising their power. It will not be due to his '1950' DOB.

Makes the man on the street question why GoI wants an admittedly competent, upright and decorated chief to make way for 'the chosen one'.

Is there some symbolically profound thing I am missing about this "I should retire next year" saga?

I have not seen or heard any news where the chief is saying "I should retire next year". Though I have read that he is saying he will step down as per the government's wish at the end of May. Again, the reason would be the government did not want him to continue. - not his DOB which is what the government wants to give as the reason.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 18 Jan 2012 22:37

saadhak wrote:Makes the man on the street question why GoI wants an admittedly competent, upright and decorated chief to make way for 'the chosen one'.

Are you making the case that the next COAS is a corrupt dude?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 18 Jan 2012 22:42

As we can guess, he can upset this GOI's "sucession plan" by resigning today. It can happen if SC clarifies VKS dob at 1950.

So for this GOI's plan works as planned only if he leaves office on 31 may, and per news reports "that has to be proteted at all costs". Now that part is a bit curious.

Does it mean in that case i.e. if VKS were to resign today the only way to "protect the succession plan" is by superseeding the next person in line which GOI has the option to do (and has happened in the past), will it do so?

If VKS dob is clarified at 1951, then a person is unable to pick up rank. It does not mean it is the end of the line. Unless IA has only a dozen officers left there always will be a next in line.

Dear rajrang
I see there is a lot of sympathy for Gen VKS in BR. But at some risk of offending many of you I am going to go against the grain because I am genuinely concerned about India. I believe VKS's only duty is to fight foreign invaders of India. (I realize that the IA is routinely used to fight internal armed insurgents as ordered by the Government of India.)  


No sir, the job of IA and its Chief is to fight when GOI wills to be at war, till then it is to prepare for one - a full scale 2 front wars, rest are side shows.

He needs to have complete focus on his job which is to guard India's borders and not be distracted by other issues.


For Army to have complete focus and minimize distractions (and Army Chief is but one man) its personnel should be withdrawn from these 'VIP'  protection duties, than this issue of age. I am sure you would agree.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2012 22:44

ramana wrote:CJ, The MS branch is the root of the dishonor of the service. We don't know how many other careers have been affected.

To me every problem has four aspects to it:
1)Technical/pertinent to the issue at hand,
2)systemic,
3)cost/financial and
4)emotions.

The MOD might have tackled the issue on first aspect but has not addressed the three other aspects and is caught flat footed. It has definitely failed on the emotions aspect and reinforced the bad image especially in this 50th anniversary of 1962.



To bolster my argument above:
IBN link
But the spotlight still remains on the Government's handling of the crisis. Many believe the Defence Ministry showed extreme short sightedness by looking at the issue primarily as a bureaucratic one. As the age crisis bubbled reaching boiling point, the Minister appeared ostrich like, giving the impression that rules were all.

For the first time he's under fire from the Opposition for inaction - not just on the age issue but for his almost obsessive quest for an unblemished procurement process that has meant delays and cost escalation in several projects.

But others insist Antony has been spot on.

"The Defence Minister has shown a remarkable restraint by not commenting on the matter in public," said former IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Anil Yashwant Tipnis.

In 2010 though, at the peak of the Sukhna scam, the Minister had taken a strident stand, when he overruled his then Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor and pushed for court martial proceedings against Avadesh Prakash, while the General was only ordering administrative action.

The crisis is now at the Prime Minister's table. With time running out, the apex court may now be the last resort out of this civil-military confrontation.



So what stopped him form doing the right thing here? Its not like he is incompetent. He has intervened earlier.

Another link:

AKA under fire from Opposition and INC leaders

Political analysts say that the government has realised the flaws in handling the issue.

That may be one reason why the government fielded Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju to make the first official response Wednesday. Antony's reaction could further escalate issue, one analyst said.

Antony did not react when journalists asked him about the matter Wednesday.

Several Congress leaders have apprised party president Sonia Gandhi that the issue should be handled carefully to avoid any repurcussions in the coming assembly polls in Uttar Pradesh, Punjab and Uttarakhand -- which have a huge number of ex-servicemen -- party sources said.

Former Punjab chief minister Amarinder Singh, an ex-Indian Army captain who had openly supported Gen. Singh, was asked by Antony to state these were his "personal views”, Congress circles pointed out.

Several traditional critics of Antony in the party, especially from his home state Kerala, have told Gandhi that Antony's "indecisiveness" had earlier cost the party in the state's politics earlier and this should not now affect national-level politics.

"Antony often becomes adamant and a prisioner of his holier than thou image," said a party leader. According to him, partymen refrained from criticising him as he was in Gandhi's good books.

"As Antony's actions are creating political problems, more leaders are now raising their voices inside the party,” the leader added.

Outside the political arena also, criticism of Antony is on the rise.

"The minister (Antony) and the government have messed it up. The number of former army officers criticising the government on TV channels should embarass the government," former Border Security Force chief EN Rammohan said.


I recall there were misgivings about Krishna Menon among the INC folks but none dared to say it to JLN. In the end after the 1962 debacle JLN meekly submitted KM's head instead of his own.

I think in the end it will be AKA also gone.

INC doesn't support non-family.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby saadhak » 18 Jan 2012 22:49

Badar wrote:
saadhak wrote:Makes the man on the street question why GoI wants an admittedly competent, upright and decorated chief to make way for 'the chosen one'.

Are you making the case that the next COAS is a corrupt dude?

Nope. But he is the chosen one by the government's own 'line of succession' practice. And the government is going to great lengths per news reports to get rid of a serving upright chief.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 18 Jan 2012 23:04

Right. There are no aspersions on any serving personnel. Lets not imply where none is intended.

Meanwhile looks like tone and tenor of reprots is changing.

Google Cache of stories for 18 Jan 2012.

To me there are politicial concerns on the fallout in upcoming State elections. So expect dithering till they are over.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 18 Jan 2012 23:14

Righto Ramana.

saadhak, didn't mean to put you in the spot.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 18 Jan 2012 23:29

What is the "pleasure of the president"?

This is a democracy and rule of law (at least that is how it is supposed to be in principle) -- the President is not a a god figure, neither is GoI.

If the GoI (read PM & RM and their real masters) screw up -- well they have to pay. Going to court and asking for resumption of correct DoB is not a great boon that V K Singh will be granted -- it is the very basic fundamental fact

What would be real penalty for the crimes of omission and commission in this case is for the RM, PM and other such "worthies" to push a peanut with their noses down the lenght of Rajpath -- after they have been kicked out from holding the posts that they are a total and complete "dhabbha" (blot) on.

Let the truth triumph, at least for once.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 18 Jan 2012 23:32

Sanku wrote:What is the "pleasure of the president"?


Please! This is a family forum! :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Muppalla » 18 Jan 2012 23:48

ramana wrote:Another link:

AKA under fire from Opposition and INC leaders


I recall there were misgivings about Krishna Menon among the INC folks but none dared to say it to JLN. In the end after the 1962 debacle JLN meekly submitted KM's head instead of his own.

I think in the end it will be AKA also gone.

INC doesn't support non-family.


AKA is being made as fall guy. If I remember, he was the one who was supporting the Chief in the earlier days of this controversy. We need to analyze SSwamy's antics too in this regard. I do not want to convert this as politics thread. Probably I will post in India Interest thread.

added later:
viewtopic.php?p=1229254#p1229254
Last edited by Muppalla on 19 Jan 2012 00:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 19 Jan 2012 00:21

Badar wrote:
Sanku wrote:What is the "pleasure of the president"?


Please! This is a family forum! :rotfl:


:eek: :shock:

:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby UPrabhu » 19 Jan 2012 00:48

Man Mohan Singh has been a disaster. Everything just flows from there PERIOD.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby hailinfreq » 19 Jan 2012 00:55

Did not see this posted earlier and thought it might be pertinent.

senior Army officer, Major General Tejinder Handa has approached the Armed Forces Tribunal complaining that his Annual Confidential Report (ACR) has been spoiled by the present Army Chief, General V.K. Singh, as a result of which he has missed his promotion to the next rank. The officer has alleged that Singh give him poor marks in his ACR because he handled the Army Chief's age controversy file while posted in the Military Secretary (MS) branch in 2006.


It must be noted here that Maj. Gen. Handa was tipped as a future Chief in the line of succession, if the current Chief's age record in the Military Secretary (MS) branch — born in 1950 — was finalised and the present Eastern Army Commander, Lt. Gen. Bikram Singh, a Sikh Light Infantry officer, became the next Chief.


http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/major-general-accuses-army-chief-of-bias

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 19 Jan 2012 00:57

http://indiamydreamland.blogspot.com/2012/01/age-row-coup-against-army-chief.html

The author of the post lucidly explains the conspiracy behind the "DoB row".

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 19 Jan 2012 01:11

hailinfreq wrote:Did not see this posted earlier and thought it might be pertinent.

senior Army officer, Major General Tejinder Handa has approached the Armed Forces Tribunal complaining that his Annual Confidential Report (ACR) has been spoiled by the present Army Chief, General V.K. Singh, as a result of which he has missed his promotion to the next rank. The officer has alleged that Singh give him poor marks in his ACR because he handled the Army Chief's age controversy file while posted in the Military Secretary (MS) branch in 2006.


It must be noted here that Maj. Gen. Handa was tipped as a future Chief in the line of succession, if the current Chief's age record in the Military Secretary (MS) branch — born in 1950 — was finalised and the present Eastern Army Commander, Lt. Gen. Bikram Singh, a Sikh Light Infantry officer, became the next Chief.


http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/major-general-accuses-army-chief-of-bias


The article explains in great detail and with even greater clarity the "chain of command" that would have forced VKS, as Maj Gen and then as Lt Gen, to abide by the then Chiefs.
It also explains the machinations and conspiracy in the DoB row.

But, that apart Gen Handa's case will fall flat because, if an officer feels that he is likely to be harmed in his CR, for reasons that was previously cognisable, he should have raised his voice before the CR is initiated.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Roperia » 19 Jan 2012 01:13

Its evident that there was very dirty politics going on inside the the army and MoD. Gen VK Singh removed the curtain and now its in the open and the Govt is embarrassed that the cat is out of the bag.

He was being wronged and GoI hoped that under the cloak of civilian supremacy they'll be able to thrust their decision down his neck.


As for the Sunday Guardian's report, it seems that the counter-attack on COAS has begun.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 19 Jan 2012 01:39

Government isolated over Anthony's bumbling on DOB issue

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/220 ... hiefs.html


Antony under fire over Army chief's age row
New Delhi, Jan 18, 2012 (IANS)
As an embarassed government stands isolated over the row about Indian Army chief Gen. V.K. Singh's age, Defence Minister A.K. Antony has been vehemently criticised by opposition leaders, as well as several from the Congress, who have conveyed their criticism to the top leadership.

Former defence minister and senior BJP leader Jaswant Singh led the charge when he that an “incompetent Antony" had treated the "sensitive issue in an insensitive manner”.
"I am amazed at his (Antony's) incompetence and the sheer folly of treating such a sensitive matter in an insensitive manner," he told mediapersons Tuesday.

"I stand by my every opinion. The mishandling continues," Jaswant Singh told IANS Wednesday.
"Could the defence minister or the prime minister not stopped or asked the army chief.....walked to his office and sort out this elementary matter of sorting government records," Singh asked.
Samjwadi Party leader Mohan Singh said that the “government should have taken it as an extraordinary issue and dealt with it with utmost sincereity and sensitivity”.

Political analysts say that the government has realised the flaws in handling the issue.
That may be one reason why the government fielded Minister of State for Defence M.M. Pallam Raju to make the first official response Wednesday. Antony's reaction could further escalate issue, one analyst said.

Antony did not react when journalists asked him about the matter Wednesday.
Several Congress leaders have apprised party president Sonia Gandhi that the issue should be handled carefully to avoid any repurcussions in the coming assembly polls in Uttar Pradesh, Punjab and Uttarakhand -- which have a huge number of ex-servicemen -- party sources said.

Former Punjab chief minister Amarinder Singh, an ex-Indian Army captain who had openly supported Gen. Singh, was asked by Antony to state these were his "personal views”, Congress circles pointed out.

Several traditional critics of Antony in the party, especially from his home state Kerala, have told Gandhi that Antony's "indecisiveness" had earlier cost the party in the state's politics earlier and this should not now affect national-level politics.

"Antony often becomes adamant and a prisioner of his holier than thou image," said a party leader. According to him, partymen refrained from criticising him as he was in Gandhi's good books.
"As Antony's actions are creating political problems, more leaders are now raising their voices inside the party,” the leader added.

Outside the political arena also, criticism of Antony is on the rise.
"The minister (Antony) and the government have messed it up. The number of former army officers criticising the government on TV channels should embarass the government," former Border Security Force chief E.N. Rammohan told IANS.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 19 Jan 2012 01:47

Arun Roperia wrote:As for the Sunday Guardian's report, it seems that the counter-attack on COAS has begun.


That report is dated 25 Dec 2011. Gen Handa's move was intended to preempt VKS. Had his non selection to rank of Lt Gen been the primary motive behind the suit in AFT he would have filed it when he missed his first board.


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