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ramana wrote:CDS is needed. It has been the recommendation from KRC onwards and gets put off for one reason or the other.
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It is certainly needed, I am only questioning what would be the nature and credibility of the institution of CDS if the only real motive is to kick Gen V K Singh upstairs.
A CDS can be made by a strong govt with a significant moral authority -- not one which is trying to look for excuses to save face.
I dont think other service chiefs and personnel will play ball with UPA on this anyway -- in my very humble prediction, this will be a still born idea at this time, which will probably damage the CDS idea even further.
I dont agree. I think he should refuse any such offer. The fact is, unless government conclusively, and in writing accepts that 1951 is his DOB, and the ministry made a mistake, they will try to humiliate and undermine him once he accepts the offer. Ample precedent for this act in the Thimayya case. It will result in destruction of not only General Singh, but also the newly formed post of CDS will totally lose credibility and efficacy.
It has already begun to dawn on the clueless wonders in the cabinet, that most of this problem is because of lack of coordination between the bureaucracy and the services. Let them devise a system to restore the services to the MOD decision making structure, and remove the unnecessary bureaucratic heirarchy from MOD first. CDS should come, but not in this situation.
Govt knows that its in a bind, and this whole mess is of their own making. Such is the level of indifference to service matters and opinion in MOD, that any issue coming from a military source is ignored. Including this one. If they had opened their ears at the right time they would have realised that Gen SIngh had a cast iron case, and the matter would have ended. Instead, it took the Supreme Court to remind them, that everyone has rights!
As Sanku says: AACK THOO!
Last edited by ASPuar on 20 Jan 2012 11:18, edited 1 time in total.
In order to save face, the govt of course will override Adm Verma, etc. That is no problem for them! And they wont care if it sticks in the throat of the IAF wallahs either. IMO, IAF has done maximum damage with its refusal to accept CDS. They are blinkered in their thinking and operating in Koop Mandoop fashion.
But none of that is relevant. This will not be the right situation for CDS to happen IMHO.
It is allegedly 'integrated' already. Of course, babus made sure that no service officer was posted to MOD. Instead, integration only meant that now bureaucrats have got access to army staff cars, and ASC drivers, while Major Generals are given taxis to roam around in.
The IAS etc need to be chucked out of MOD. They have done incalculable harm to the higher defence setup over the years.
ASPuar wrote:It is allegedly 'integrated' already. Of course, babus made sure that no service officer was posted to MOD. Instead, integration only meant that now bureaucrats have got access to army staff cars, and ASC drivers, while Major Generals are given taxis to roam around in.
The IAS etc need to be chucked out of MOD. They have done incalculable harm to the higher defence setup over the years.
Right on! The civilian wallas are now "comfortably integrated". Well plugged into all of the military's teats.
Sanku wrote:Fully agree, if court rules in his favor, the least Govt should do, is not fiddle further. Enough damage has been done already.
chetak wrote:
Badar wrote:
And his honor satisfied, should the General then take early retirement?
I am hearing that he wants "consequential benefits" because the GOI has pissed him off with their attitude.
If he wins he may continue another eight -ten odd months. Hope he does.
He has right to seek consequential benefits. If that plea is not here then the case will be thrown out as inconsequential. Govt can send him out afterwards or he may resign after winning the case, but that is another issue.If he takes early retirement , still Govt would lose morally and DM in any eventuality is a spent force.
SC can also dismiss the case as not pressed , if VKS makes compromises, but then his whole credibility would be gone.
In his 68-page petition challenging the government's decision on determining his date of birth as 10.5.1950 and not 1951, he has maintained his acceptance of his year of birth as 1950 was given in good faith at the behest of the then chief of Army Staff.
Explaining the discussions he had had with the then Army Chief Gen Dipak Kapoor on why he accepted 10.5.1950 as the date of birth in 2008, he said he did so on being ordered by Gen Kapoor in his letters.
"In the highest of traditions of the Indian Army, he had no option but to comply with the orders and command of his direct superior officer as also the assurances of his superior officer with the hope that he would bring the issue to a logical and ethical conclusion by accepting facts," the petition said.
He said the Army chief in 2008 had personally assured him that the date of birth issue would be resolved by him.
However, nothing had been done for almost three months and he addressed a letter on July 1, 2008 to the then Chief of the Army Staff General Kapoor requesting for justice in his case.
Further, the petition said Singh had met Lt Gen Khare and Lt Gen Gangadharan heading the MS Branch in 2006 and 2007 respectively regarding the matter. When the then Army chief came to know of this, he assured again that "all necessary reconciliation with regard to the clarification on the date of birth would be carried out."
The Supreme Court is set to hear a crucial petition on the Army Chief General VK Singh's age row. The petition has been filed by ex-servicemen, the Grenadiers association, asking for 1951 to be fixed as the Army Chief's date of birth.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Thursday refused to comment on the controversy around the date of birth of General VK Singh.
The Prime Minister, however, said that the issue was a sensitive one.
"It is a sensitive issue. I do not want to comment," the Prime Minister said on the sidelines of a function to launch the book 'The Tribune 13 Years: A Witness to History.
The court said, "In our view, the writ petition of this type filed at the behest of an association is not maintainable. We express no opinion on the merits. "
For now, the court has not indicated whether the chief's petition has been accepted.
VKS in his petition has termed PIL as full of inaccuracies and mischievous. Had he not filed before this technical dismissal, headlines would have been screaming otherwise and he would have had no option but to keep quite. Good thinking indeed.
This petition was a total dud, riddled with inconsistencies, and sensational lies, and designed to preclude the chief from legal options before the Supreme Court. The idea was, that this nonsense petition would be taken up, and rejected, because it was so scandalous in nature, and thereafter General VK Singh's case would be seriously prejudiced.
The fact that opinions of former Chief Justices were attached to the submission just goes to show that this PIL was malicious in nature, and intended to hurt General VK Singh's interests. It is deeply offensive to any court to be told that "so and so judge has said this, and so you must rule this way".
No lawyer who intended to win a case for his client would ever have attached such opinions in his or her submission. The fact that a SENIOR ADVOCATE (who obviously knows fully well that such a move would offend the court), attached these opinions in his submissions before the court, makes it quite obvious that this petition was crafted to ruin Gen VKS's chances.
Anyway, Grenadiers association Rohtak has no locus standii in the matter anyway!
Quite amusing that media is peddling the line that this petition was "in support of General VK Singh".
Breaking his silence on the age controversy surrounding Army chief Gen VK Singh, defence minister AK Antony on Friday said he was "sorry and sad" over it and left it to the Supreme Court to decide the matter.
Noting that there are constitutional forums to question a government's decision, he said, "The Army headquarters and government take decisions many a time but now there are questions. There are constitutional forums to question the decisions of government."
Antony said government was exercising "maximum restraint and patience" on the age row and contended that the matter could not be settled in a sensational manner.
"I have always been against public debate on this, but unfortunately some of you are celebrating it. This is not an issue for celebration.
"I feel sorry and sad about the controversy. That is why inspite of something being misunderstood, I was keeping silence because I believe this is not an issue that can be decided on public platform or (through) public debate," he told reporters when asked about the row surrounding Army chief's age.
Replying to a question as to why the government allowed the issue to linger on for seven months, he said, "Our government is keeping maximum restraint and patience because these issues cannot be handled in a sensational manner through public debate."
The minister said government will wait for the final verdict of the Supreme Court on the matter.
"The decision (of the government) has now been questioned and matter is before the Supreme Court. Lets all wait for the verdict of the SC. Please avoid controversy and let us wait for the final verdict of the SC," he said.
Singh has challenged the decision of the government which has determined his date of birth as 10.5.1950 and not a year later.
what is CDS? If it is chief of defence staff, how is it different from Chief of armed services COAS? is it combined defence services? also, what is MS?
CDS is a 5 star general , single point of opinion for the government for all matters relating to military.
Though the news of CDS being created to tide over present crised etc is just fake ........ Like AKA said today lets wait for Court to deliver on the judgement before Govt can act.
^ This document is already flagged in this thread. The damage from the article by Mr SU is already done. AKA is putting brave front but he is badly burnt in this entire episode.
Making Gen.Singh CDS is the most extraordinary knee-jerk ever,by the "jerking off" babus! It adds insult to injury,and will stir up another huge controversy as the three services have yet to agree upon seevral aspects of the post of CDS.It will be from the frying pan into the fire!
Yes, a CDS is absolutely required but not as a sop to the Chief,compensation for insulting his honour and integrity.The issue is striaghtforward.Let the SC decide and if it rules in Gen. Singh's favour,let him stay on for his full term.What is the harm in this? Why can't the GOI too say let the court decide? It can actually jon in Gen.Singh's plea and say that since such a sensitive matter requires the fullest legal opinion on it,as there are so many differing viewpoints within the IA/MOD,etc.,it also wants the highest court in the land to rule on the issue and regain much loss of face.
"Gen.Singh was born in a military hospital'...and his DOB was given by it as him being born in 1951.That should've put an end to all speculation about this DOB at the outset.It is incredible that the MOD/DM have lacked this grain of common sense to understand the core of the issueand started right from the beginning.If they didn't,it means that they are crass cretins,morons and idiots,or that there is a clear conspiracy to shortchange him and install a successor who is felt to be more pliable,especially when massive deals for the IA are in the offing.Artillery of various types,the 21st century soldier's personal eqpt./uniforms with a host of high-tech accessories,required for lakhs of troops,a variety of helicopters,UAVs and light aircraft for the AACorps,battlefield SAMs/MANPADs,light tanks and armoured vehicles,MBTs-more upgraded T-90s and Arjun Mk-2s-with both requiring key foreign components,etc.The cost of these woiuld cross 20+ billion.One can imagine the drooling in certain babu quarters at the thought of benefitting illegally from such a massive acquisition programme.This is what Adm.Bhagwat hinted at as a strong reason why Gen.Singh had to be indecently ousted from hs seat,and as many have said,he may be spot on.
PS:Our beloved PM hs changed his media spin doctor.The bottle may indeed be changed,the label redesigned,the packaging more glittering,but if the "wine" that is poured in remains the same cheap,indigestible plonk (like IMFL masquerading as Scotch),few will drink it and it will have to be sold to Congress workers mainly!
PPS:India Today has become India Advertising Today and an event management entity.You can finish the mag in 60 seconds.It has changed considerably after Raj Chengappa left it.IT's loss,the Tribune's gain.
Having worked briefly with IT in the 1980s, I used to feel good about it even though one knew a bit about the way things worked. The first jolt came when India Today splashed pictures of our boys KIA in Sri Lanka with their brains splattered on the ground. It was sick and in my book, just not done.
Now comes this slanderous issue and it surely is one of the lowest and most shameful moments in Indian journalism. In BR you guys are upset about SU, but Aroon Purie's editorial takes the cake!
I feel, very strongly, that we should suggest to the Supreme Court of India that it takes up, su moto, a case of slander against IT. Sue the magazine for dragging the Indian Army into the mud to the tune of Rs 1,000 crore. What they've done is just not on. In fact, the GOI should be forced to act against IT for it is imperative that the honour, welfare and morale of the men who guard you day and night comes first, each and every time. Politicians, bureaucrats and all of us must remember that each and every waking minute!
great post Philip - except "-more upgraded T-90s ' ?? why why why
And you are right - what a difference between the times Chengappa to the idiotic Unnithan who should stick to writing on drugs and sex in Goa.
kunal
That IT cover was a shocker and I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand it woke a lot of us to think more carefully of brutality of the war and how we should never let our soldiers suffer this indignity
I had some exchanges with the photographer but he then dropped off the radar. Do you know if where he is right now??
Also we are more upset with Unnithan because he was a BRFite in the early days when he would roam around a motorcyle (likweise with Som who many of us interacted with on the net in the early days of the net)
To see a fellow forumite (however brief) descend to these depths is more annoying then a Poorie who it is taken for granted to be on the dark side
^^^
All the compromises are being floated via media and also SSwamy. It could be one of the two:
(1) To buy time and see if the General reacts.
(2) Keep the "folks" distracted while working on to fire the General.
Governement still has the highest authority to fire him. They will use that if they have no option. They are hellbent on a path. Courts including SC are anyway compromised and they are not swift in decisions.
Philip wrote:The issue is striaghtforward.Let the SC decide and if it rules in Gen. Singh's favour,let him stay on for his full term.What is the harm in this? Why can't the GOI too say let the court decide? It can actually jon in Gen.Singh's plea and say that since such a sensitive matter requires the fullest legal opinion on it,as there are so many differing viewpoints within the IA/MOD,etc.,it also wants the highest court in the land to rule on the issue and regain much loss of face.
"Gen.Singh was born in a military hospital'...and his DOB was given by it as him being born in 1951.That should've put an end to all speculation about this DOB at the outset.It is incredible that the MOD/DM have lacked this grain of common sense to understand the core of the issue and started right from the beginning.If they didn't,it means that they are crass cretins,morons and idiots,or that there is a clear conspiracy to shortchange him and install a successor who is felt to be more pliable,especially when massive deals for the IA are in the offing.Artillery of various types,the 21st century soldier's personal eqpt./uniforms with a host of high-tech accessories,required for lakhs of troops,a variety of helicopters,UAVs and light aircraft for the AACorps,battlefield SAMs/MANPADs,light tanks and armoured vehicles,MBTs-more upgraded T-90s and Arjun Mk-2s-with both requiring key foreign components,etc.The cost of these woiuld cross 20+ billion.One can imagine the drooling in certain babu quarters at the thought of benefitting illegally from such a massive acquisition programme.This is what Adm.Bhagwat hinted at as a strong reason why Gen.Singh had to be indecently ousted from hs seat,and as many have said,he may be spot on.
Though corruption is a reason but I do not think it is corruption the reason for which they want an "Yes Man". It relates to policy decisions where current General and a large sections of his successors have put their foot down. They want a "YES Man" to abolish The Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act (AFSPA) and implement common borders and common currency in JK.
The fight started on this part. Actually AKA was supportive to this General but the press is all about AKA as fall guy. It is possible they want to get rid of this General anyway by firing him but they also want to get rid of AKA who is another opposer to AFSPA abolition.
Their townships are generally looked after by the Army wallas.