Indian Army: News & Discussion

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eklavya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 04 Feb 2012 23:17

sunnydee wrote:Please explain to this backward, illeterate mind if you dont mind sir :) ? or would that be ma'am ?


sunnydee, don't be too harsh on yourself. You are just asking the wrong questions.

A date of birth is not a political opinion or a theory, which one may accept or not accept. A date of birth is a fact. There is just one. When a chap says that his DOB is 10-05-51, it is either true or false.

To test the fact, certain documentary evidence is relied upon, such as the matriculation certificate. Gen VKS' matric certificate states 10-05-1951.

Now, the questions that need to be asked is:

1) Instead of establishing the fact and reconciling the record of the AG branch and the MS branch according to the fact, why were the powers that be ordering VKS to accept a wrong date. If the powers that be were certain of their fact, then there is no question of asking that person to "accept" a certain DOB.

2) Instead of establishing the fact, why was VKS being forced by his predecessors and the Government to "accept" 1950? Cui Bono? Who benefits?

A DOB is not a contractual term that one can "accept". A DOB is a fact. A fact does not change by the mere administrative step of "acceptance" (under duress or otherwise). The overwhelming consensus is that Gen VKS took the morally correct step in preserving his career by "accepting as directed" (under severe duress) the date he was ordered to "accept" by the powers that be.

This fact (his DOB) has consequences for the 1.2 million strong Indian Army. In the interests of the Indian Army this fact has to be estabished once and for all, and all consequences thereof should follow.

It is better that the fact is established late rather than never, and all consequences of that fact also follow.

It is grossly immoral of those who keep pointing to this "acceptance" as a reason to not establish the FACT (once and for all) and let the consequences flow..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 04 Feb 2012 23:19

sunnydee wrote:I used the term "moral courage". My POV is that if he had conviction about this issue he would have ensured that he would not have put his name to the "dotted line". Thus my view that he cant claim to be fighting for his personal honour and integrity because he missed doing it at that time. In fact my understanding is , and please correct me if am wrong, is that he agreed to the date of 1950 twice.(wld be great if there was a timeline for reference-always thought he agreed to the 1950 dob twice - once as lt gen, corps commander, IInd corps and secondly as Army Commander,Eastern Command.)


Yes you can give him a 9 out of 10 for moral courage, but in the same stretch give JJ and DK 0 out of 10 in 'loyalty' and 'integrity'.
He gave the alleged 'commitments' in 2006 as a Maj Gen when being considered to be a Lt Gen and in 2008 as a Lt Gen when being considered to be Army Commander.
The govt shall seek estoppel based on these commitments and Supreme Court will be honoured to oblige.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 04 Feb 2012 23:25

In spite of all my rants and reasons on this issue, i start to believe that, if VKS has not done his homework in the 21 months that he been COAS, he will shed his uniform in May this year or earlier.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby peter » 04 Feb 2012 23:27

nelson wrote:He gave the alleged 'commitments' in 2006 as a Maj Gen when being considered to be a Lt Gen and in 2008 as a Lt Gen when being considered to be Army Commander.

This is a gross mis-representation of facts. Katoch's words overrule your imagination.

nelson wrote:The govt shall seek estoppel based on these commitments and Supreme Court will be honoured to oblige.

Are you sensing a victory for Anthony? You are not a Mallu by any chance are you?

AK anthony has been the worst defence minister, ever. To have this played out like this under his watch is just atrocious.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby peter » 04 Feb 2012 23:29

nelson wrote:In spite of all my rants and reasons on this issue, i start to believe that, if VKS has not done his homework in the 21 months that he been COAS, he will shed his uniform in May this year or earlier.


This Government and Anthony don't have it in them to sack Singh.

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 04 Feb 2012 23:30

@ peter Frankly after reading comments - l love your polite tone (or would it be e-tone ?) - i feel too tired and raise the white flag of surrender. Victory to you !!!
@ eklavya - I have no issues with your POV and generally agree with it except for "The overwhelming consensus is that Gen VKS took the morally correct step in preserving his career by "accepting as directed" (under severe duress) the date he was ordered to "accept" by the powers that be". I dont agree with that statement as i feel that would have been a more apporpriate time to take the steps he is taking now. Secondly i am not convinced of the statement "overwhelming consensus". I am not sure if there is a consensus on this issue. From what i get to hear everyone has a different pov and there is no consensus amongst the public or amongst serving/retired officers.
@Nelson - I would beg to differ on the rating of 9/10. I guess our threshold and marking criteria is different :)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 04 Feb 2012 23:45

^ nevertheless, you accept JJ and DK get 0/10?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 04 Feb 2012 23:51

peter wrote:
nelson wrote:In spite of all my rants and reasons on this issue, i start to believe that, if VKS has not done his homework in the 21 months that he been COAS, he will shed his uniform in May this year or earlier.


This Government and Anthony don't have it in them to sack Singh.


I would be very happy to know that.

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 04 Feb 2012 23:52

:) can i be humble enough and say i dont know ?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 05 Feb 2012 00:06

sunnydee wrote:@ eklavya - I have no issues with your POV and generally agree with it except for "The overwhelming consensus is that Gen VKS took the morally correct step in preserving his career by "accepting as directed" (under severe duress) the date he was ordered to "accept" by the powers that be". I dont agree with that statement as i feel that would have been a more apporpriate time to take the steps he is taking now. Secondly i am not convinced of the statement "overwhelming consensus". I am not sure if there is a consensus on this issue. From what i get to hear everyone has a different pov and there is no consensus amongst the public or amongst serving/retired officers.


sunnydee, many thanks. Let me deal with the exception!

In the real world, if the choice one has is (i) achieve most of your objectives and live to fight another day for the rest, or (ii) die in a ditch and achieve nothing, a moral person chooses (i).

If Gen VKS had retired as Maj Gen or as a Lt Gen by taking the Govt to court on his DOB, he would be a mere forgotten footnote in history (and possibly not even that). By following the path that he has taken, Gen VKS has given a chance for the truth to be established. Satyamev jaite (but sometimes with a delay fuse).

To fight a battle at a particular time and place regardless of knowing that there is no chance of a victory and knowing the terrible consequences of defeat is not a moral trait, it is a sign of suicidal stupidity. This is especially so when one knows that the time will come when one is better able to fight the battle to establish truth and justice.

As for the apparent lack of consensus, indeed there is a lot of noise in the media, as the General is up against very powerful and influential forces.

The reality is that Gen VKS is fighting to establish the truth and the government appears to be fighting to preserve a falsehood, and this much is apparent to everyone. No one believes that the government is trying to uphold some noble principle, such as civilian supremacy. Democracy and the rule of the law will not be harmed in any way whatsoever in Gen VKS retires in Mar 2013, in fact it will be strengthened.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 05 Feb 2012 00:19

peter wrote:You are not a **** by any chance are you?


Peter, please do us all a favour and delete this comment.

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 05 Feb 2012 00:34

eklavya wrote:
sunnydee wrote:@ eklavya - I have no issues with your POV and generally agree with it except for "The overwhelming consensus is that Gen VKS took the morally correct step in preserving his career by "accepting as directed" (under severe duress) the date he was ordered to "accept" by the powers that be". I dont agree with that statement as i feel that would have been a more apporpriate time to take the steps he is taking now. Secondly i am not convinced of the statement "overwhelming consensus". I am not sure if there is a consensus on this issue. From what i get to hear everyone has a different pov and there is no consensus amongst the public or amongst serving/retired officers.


sunnydee, many thanks. Let me deal with the exception!

In the real world, if the choice one has is (i) achieve most of your objectives and live to fight another day for the rest, or (ii) die in a ditch and achieve nothing, a moral person chooses (i).

If Gen VKS had retired as Maj Gen or as a Lt Gen by taking the Govt to court on his DOB, he would be a mere forgotten footnote in history (and possibly not even that). By following the path that he has taken, Gen VKS has given a chance for the truth to be established. Satyamev jaite (but sometimes with a delay fuse).

To fight a battle at a particular time and place regardless of knowing that there is no chance of a victory and knowing the terrible consequences of defeat is not a moral trait, it is a sign of suicidal stupidity. This is especially so when one knows that the time will come when one is better able to fight the battle to establish truth and justice.

As for the apparent lack of consensus, indeed there is a lot of noise in the media, as the General is up against very powerful and influential forces.

The reality is that Gen VKS is fighting to establish the truth and the government appears to be fighting to preserve a falsehood, and this much is apparent to everyone. No one believes that the government is trying to uphold some noble principle, such as civilian supremacy. Democracy and the rule of the law will not be harmed in any way whatsoever in Gen VKS retires in Mar 2013, in fact it will be strengthened.


Very Interesting. However i guess i would have to disagree with you and stick to my original stand ( I guess we agree to disagree). Maybe its due to the difference in our world view. My view is an army officer or a leader should stand his or her ground on such issues . The principle you spoke about would work as a military strategy against an enemy,or even in the corporate sector, but i am not convinced it would be appropriate to apply it to an army officer fighting such an issue. Maybe in my view i have put army officers and their peers on a much higher pedestal than us mere mortals. On the issue of consensus i was referring to some drawing room and wb converstations which obviously could be influenced by the media(includes serving/retd offcrs). However i am pretty convinced, in my mind, though i have no evidence to back it up that all sides including the so called well wishers of the general are palying up the media to their pov

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 05 Feb 2012 00:36

peter wrote:
nelson wrote:He gave the alleged 'commitments' in 2006 as a Maj Gen when being considered to be a Lt Gen and in 2008 as a Lt Gen when being considered to be Army Commander.

This is a gross mis-representation of facts. Katoch's words overrule your imagination.

I can't say anything on Gen Katoch's words. But certainly the "alleged 'commitments'" are not my imagination. VKS admits to the same, verbatim, in his writ before the SC.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 05 Feb 2012 01:11

one cannot be made to nor can one willy-nilly change DoB. Additionally the DoB has nothing to do with being promoted afaik. One's capabilities and qualifications determine promotions.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Feb 2012 01:21

Peter, Krishna Menon was the worst. However AKA is getting close.


nelson, All those commitments are under duress and hence not valid. Its easy to talk about how VKS should have stormed out and cared two figs for those who sought his commitment. He outsmarted them by signing with those words which leave nothing to imagination about natural justice as the SC observed.
If it was any other govt than the UPA which firmly believes in "collective irresponsibility" the whole set of actors from MMS to the Nandwani would have resigned if not dismissed.

Had it been Neelam Sanjiva Reddy as President and Commander in Chief, he would have given show cause notices to all these above and dismissed them if they didn't resign.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 05 Feb 2012 02:33

sunnydee wrote:My view is an army officer or a leader should stand his or her ground on such issues . The principle you spoke about would work as a military strategy against an enemy,or even in the corporate sector, but i am not convinced it would be appropriate to apply it to an army officer fighting such an issue. Maybe in my view i have put army officers and their peers on a much higher pedestal than us mere mortals.


sunnydee,

please don't be so harsh on yourself. I am sure your morals are thoroughly upstanding.

But I am still at a loss to understand why you think army officers should commit immediate career suicide when confronted with injustice, when there is a superior alternative to fighting that injustice. How would that benefit the army or the country? If army officers were to follow your code, none of the "moral" officers (as per your definition) (in my view "reckless" and "careless") would ever attain a senior rank.

Choosing the right moment to fight injustice is wise and moral. Most of us who care about the Indian armed forces are delighted that Gen VKS picked the right time to fight for the truth. The right time to fight for the truth is when there is the best chance of a victory.

sunnydee wrote:On the issue of consensus i was referring to some drawing room and wb converstations which obviously could be influenced by the media(includes serving/retd offcrs). However i am pretty convinced, in my mind, though i have no evidence to back it up that all sides including the so called well wishers of the general are palying up the media to their pov


sunnydee, GoI = Goliath, VKS = David.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 05 Feb 2012 04:28


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Feb 2012 05:01

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?279801

Katoch on Fire !!!!

is pathetic to see some veterans trying do down Gen V.K. Singh in TV debates when the facts are abundantly clear. But then so are the motives of these gentlemen. It is surprising to see how some are prepared to take individual friendship with demons / devils to any level—even down the sink hole and also at the same time talk of propriety, morals and ethics. Take the case of an ex Army Commander who surely knows someone called Pran Nath whose own bank account was sealed last year under the 400 crore Citi Bank Fraud and whose grandson is still in jail. Such guys would be well advised to look themselves in the mirror, double lock their cupboards and remain underground before skeletons come tumbling out. Their repeated emphasis that Gen V.K. Singh should resign are obvious tactics to keep the ‘chosen line of succession’ still going. Examination of their compulsion could well come up with some startling revelations—beyond friendships.



Ouch -

JJ and DK are getting their asses kicked around.

NDTV, IT and other garbage - hide in shame

Those who continue to support the conspiracy against the Army Chief are no less than enemies of the state.


Hear that the handful of people here who still think its the Army chiefs fault--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 05 Feb 2012 09:14

But I am still at a loss to understand why you think army officers should commit immediate career suicide when confronted with injustice, when there is a superior alternative to fighting that injustice. How would that benefit the army or the country? If army officers were to follow your code, none of the "moral" officers (as per your definition) (in my view "reckless" and "careless") would ever attain a senior rank.

Choosing the right moment to fight injustice is wise and moral. Most of us who care about the Indian armed forces are delighted that Gen VKS picked the right time to fight for the truth. The right time to fight for the truth is when there is the best chance of a victory.

sunnydee wrote:On the issue of consensus i was referring to some drawing room and wb converstations which obviously could be influenced by the media(includes serving/retd offcrs). However i am pretty convinced, in my mind, though i have no evidence to back it up that all sides including the so called well wishers of the general are palying up the media to their pov


sunnydee, GoI = Goliath, VKS = David.[/quote]

I think like this because while i was growing up all i saw was olive green and the men wearing that olive green would consider themselves a breed apart including in the depart of morals...I also dont think it is a David and Goliath battle. I think all sides are firing from the hip with equal amount of firepower...


Surya there is nothing wrong if its encouraged to have differing points of view on an issue in a forum. Like in a society it would be healthier for a forum. i am not saying the stories behind the politics at AHQ are untrue but what i am saying is that an inquiry needs to be launched even if its internal to figure out the whole truth..
Last edited by sunnydee on 05 Feb 2012 10:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby tejas » 05 Feb 2012 09:15

What is AK Antony's qualification to be defense minister? He is a lawyer so he is trained to manipulate language and obfuscate. He is scientifically illiterate. His only "positive" is he is a Sonia boot licker. He should resign once the SC tells this govt/baboondom they are wearing no clothes.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby peter » 05 Feb 2012 11:10

sunnydee wrote:However i am pretty convinced, in my mind, though i have no evidence to back it up that all sides including the so called well wishers of the general are palying up the media to their pov

Since you don't have evidence to support your POV and there is evidence for the opposing POV where DK made the call to VKS (who had dug his heels) and promised him that his DOB would be corrected if he relented so that promotions of others could go through. What is so hard to understand here?

How can you push your POV when the evidence is against you?

You can do two things:
a) Say Katoch is lying. Fine. Then show us the evidence.
b) If a) is false then believe Katoch that VKS had dug his heels in 2006 and relented when he was called by DK that his stance is holding up promotions of others and that his DOB would be made consistent.

How can any one conclude that VKS is at fault here?

nelson wrote:I can't say anything on Gen Katoch's words. But certainly the "alleged 'commitments'" are not my imagination. VKS admits to the same, verbatim, in his writ before the SC.

Well then please quote from the writ to support your claim.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby peter » 05 Feb 2012 11:18

ramana wrote:Peter, Krishna Menon was the worst. However AKA is getting close.



It is interesting the parallel though. Mr Menon tried to ride rough shod over the then generals and perhaps got his way. But in the case of Shri Anthony he ran into a much harder mettle than was anticipated. Anthony really thought that the Brass would just bend over. What is worst is that VKS is being punished for taking on the likes of Omar Abdullah, Chiddu etc.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Jaybhatt » 05 Feb 2012 11:20

I am sorry to say that sunnydee is being very obtuse and disingenuous in his posts.

He shifts his stand whenever convenient, he constantly obfuscates and meanders, and more importantly, he refuses to see reason and logic, leave alone ethics and morality.

Is he a practising lawyer by any chance ? :-?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Feb 2012 12:15

What is it with Defence Ministers from Kerala, and disasters in Civil Military relations? The last one, of course, was VK Krishna Menon, and we all know how that ended. Now, Antony is writing his own name in letters of gold on the board ignominy.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 05 Feb 2012 12:28

I request the newcomers to this DoB discussion to go back at least a few pages and see a posters' position on the issue before branding any one as 'enemy of state' or going ballistic on them. If you don't have time or inclination to do so, avoid personal remarks.

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 05 Feb 2012 12:40

Jaybhatt wrote:I am sorry to say that sunnydee is being very obtuse and disingenuous in his posts.

He shifts his stand whenever convenient, he constantly obfuscates and meanders, and more importantly, he refuses to see reason and logic, leave alone ethics and morality.

Is he a practising lawyer by any chance ? :-?


Are you playing God ?

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 05 Feb 2012 12:52

@peter
It has been suggested that it was JJ who made a call in 2006 and the agreement they came to was that the dob should be 1950 even if it was under duress. My argument has always been that VKS should have stood his ground at that point of time. And that is the reason i have faulted him. The second time the issue came up it was in 2008-09 when it was DK who made and the same thing happened. I am not giving a clean chit to JJ,DK and VKS nor am i stating Katoch is lying.I am not giving a clean chit to anyone from the MOD or the RM. I can only come to the conclusions if there is a proper enquiry. The only observation i can make and have made is
a) Lack of moral courage by VKS when the case came up in 2006 and 2008 to stand up for his convictions
b) Lack of sensitivity with the way the MOD has handled the issue.
c) Lack of leadership by the Honourable RM in not showing the urgency to handle this issue.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 05 Feb 2012 12:53

If one would want to think that the political indifference or indulgence in the DoB row is limited to AKA only, then it is grossly off the mark. Just like JLN had his share of blame for the 1962 debacle, MMS has his part in the DoB 'muck'-pie. The oft repeated term 'political masters(PM)', here in this thread, is larger than what is believed here.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby svenkat » 05 Feb 2012 13:12

ASPuar wrote:What is it with Defence Ministers from ****, :shock: and disasters in Civil Military relations? .

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 05 Feb 2012 13:34

sunnydee wrote:.....
The only observation i can make and have made is
a) Lack of moral courage by VKS when the case came up in 2006 and 2008 to stand up for his convictions
b) Lack of sensitivity with the way the MOD has handled the issue.
c) Lack of leadership by the Honourable RM in not showing the urgency to handle this issue.


I would present a different view point, to which Sachin alluded to as a passing remark. His take was promotions and appointments in the Armed forces are political in nature. I agree with him.
Let us take the case of VKS, in 2001 when VKS was being considered for promotion from rank of Brig to Maj Gen he could not make it. He appealed and was finally promoted as Maj Gen in 2003 even though he retained the seniority of 2001.

Consider a hypothetical situation, where VKS displayed the attribute what you call as "moral courage" and refused to obey his then Chief in 2008. His name would have been set aside from the panel of officers being considered for promotion. By the time he would have appealed and restored his right to get promoted, say a couple of years (optimistic), he would have missed his bus to become Army Commander even. Yes, the court would make him one on paper and grant him pay-pension but VKS would have faded into obscurity.

In this manner his distractors then and now would have achieved what they wanted with considerable ease, ie the line of succession that was pre-meditated in 2006. So I believe what he did was correct and i would expect any rational person to have done the same.

Now this view should be acceptable to the Supreme Court. As Ramana says, the Court may not issue an estoppel on VKS case because of his alleged 'acceptances'. But, having gone through the judgment on '2G sanction to prosecute case' and hearing about the CBI Special Court Judge's order on PC yesterday, I feel that the power of the executive is humongous and can be challenged successfully by very few only. It is in this context I wrote, that hopefully VKS has done his homework in the 21 months of his tenure as Chief to stand a chance in his case.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 05 Feb 2012 13:57

Sathe Sathyam samacharet

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 05 Feb 2012 14:17

One dying question to Gurus - Several pending defence contracts and different lobby's vying for it is the sole cause for this age controversy ?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Dilbu » 05 Feb 2012 14:31

ASPuar wrote:What is it with Defence Ministers from Kerala, and disasters in Civil Military relations?

May be because they eat babana chips fried in coconut oil and beef fry with porotta. :-?

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 05 Feb 2012 14:44

Thomas Kolarek wrote:One dying question to Gurus - Several pending defence contracts and different lobby's vying for it is the sole cause for this age controversy ?


Though i dont think of myself as a Guru and i am definitely not considered a guru of any sort however i would hate to link the two issues. The Army's Acquisition policy has come in for a lot of stick from within its own ranks and it could be said that its about time the Army looks at the way the IAF conducted the M-MRCA trial as well as the way navy has help create the shipbuilding infrastructure. Though in the same breath one could say that Mazagaon had the skill sets which enabled the Navy to do what it has done i.e a 200+yrs experience in shipbuilding which neither the OFB/DRDO had.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Feb 2012 15:02

@Sunnydee: Its easy to fault someone when youre not in his place. I think he did the right thing, and he has certainly been a hell of a lot better for the army than any of his three predecessors. Indeed, it is Gen VKS who has cleaned up the filth engendered by Vij, JJ, and DK.

Of course, it would be awkward for the govt to get into all this. After all, JJ is now a governor, Vij was Chairman NDMA (Minister of State rank)...

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby VinayG » 05 Feb 2012 15:03

Etiquette, deference, tradition and tea amid an unsung tour of duty

In the shadow of Guantánamo Bay and Abu Ghraib, the default liberal view of US troops in Iraq was often of stoned, cowardly rednecks shooting innocents for sport. But when I spent time as an embedded reporter with the US army in Baghdad, the soldiers I met were generally brave, quick-witted and compassionate. It was, at the very least, a rebuke to oversimplification.

I wasn't quite sure what to expect last week on an excursion with the Indian army. The faces, languages and generous hospitality of India were the last thing I'd anticipated in rural Democratic Republic of Congo. But with more than 4,000 troops on the ground, they're the biggest contingent of the biggest UN peacekeeping operation in the world.

David Smith

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 05 Feb 2012 15:16

ASPuar wrote:...Indeed, it is Gen VKS who has cleaned up the filth engendered by Vij, JJ, and DK.

+1 to that
Of course, it would be awkward for the govt to get into all this. After all, JJ is now a governor, Vij was Chairman NDMA (Minister of State rank)...

Chairman NDMA is the PM.
NC Vij was the first Vice-chairman of NDMA. It is equivalent to Cabinet Minister in Govt of India.
As per plans, DK would have become Vice-chairman NDMA in 2010, but for the Sukna and Adarsh mishaps.

Edit:- Before some one challenges me for proof.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/adars ... ob/706817/

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Feb 2012 15:38

What is surprising, and shows the caliber of people like Vij, DK, JJ, is that they were ready to sell their personal honour, and the dignity and interests of their service down the river, in exchange for something as small as governorship of a tiny northeastern state, and chairmanship of an authority.. its really quite amazing.

Im sure the 'management' of the armed forces by the bureaucracy includes making sure that useless fellows like this only make it to the top. If the babus are pushing for Gen Bikram Singh to be the next chief, then Im afraid its a terrible black mark against him. I dont know anything about Gen Parnaik, but if the Babus DONT want him, then its a tremendous PLUS for him, in my eyes at least.

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 05 Feb 2012 16:08

ASPuar wrote: Im sure the 'management' of the armed forces by the bureaucracy includes making sure that useless fellows like this only make it to the top. If the babus are pushing for Gen Bikram Singh to be the next chief, then Im afraid its a terrible black mark against him. I dont know anything about Gen Parnaik, but if the Babus DONT want him, then its a tremendous PLUS for him, in my eyes at least.


The babus as suggested could be accussed of manipulating the army (not all of them i must add)....However the army should not be absolved (manipulation is pretty prevelant at all flag officer ranks by both senior and middle level officers)...Thats why i am stating an inquiry should be conducted into the into this affair ....The army does need a detox as most senior officers have turned it into personal fiefdoms (Personally i think a culture of entitlement has become institutionalised)....In a previous post someone mentioned the views of General Katoch but i am sure then there would be some people who would have thought the same of General Katoch...Similarly you will have pro JJ'its and anti JJ'ites ...Pro Vij's and anti Vij's etc...I guess it could be suggested the problems that have come up is because the Army has become too "corporatised" and army officers due to the pressures of the modern world have become "Careerists" ( i am sure it was in the past despite the claims but the proportions its been argued have completed changed towards the careerists thus an increase in boot lickers)..Hence its about time that the Government/Parliament or the Judiciary force a full fledged inquiry to ensure that the commanders who misuse their authority (moral authority as well) realise that they are accountable (Even a few yrs bck i wld never have said something like this)...
P.S. I have not changed my view on the VKS affair in case someone thinks so...

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 05 Feb 2012 16:18

FYI : just to add to the previous posts - people have asked why i have blamed General VKS to a certain extent....well its this idea that everyone play Chanakya within the army rather than against the enemy which drives me up the wall....Thus in my mind even though Gen VKS has proved to be the best chief in the last decade i still would like to hold him to account for not sticking to his guns when he was junior...A chief who did not stick to his guns when he was junior does lose his credibility when he is trying to clean up the system ...


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