Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Kanson » 11 Feb 2012 00:57

Considering how Gen Musharraf was treated on his visit to India and treatment meted out to Gen VKS one doesn't need to be an Einstein to conclude how GoI treats her Generals compared to Pak army chief.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 11 Feb 2012 01:23

“The idea of this petition is not to stick to office. As counsel I cannot say certain things.” Lalit hinted at other reasons for his agitation.

To this, Justice Lodha shot back: “I will not use the expression dirty linen washed in public. But if it has come to such a stage, you can wash. But we thought that both parties, being dignified.”


SC has taken upon itself to be an arbiter between the two parties, rather than establish the truth. And all of them, the parties and the court, know that the truth is dirty and unwashed. The court did not believe that establishment of truth would serve the larger good of the nation.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 11 Feb 2012 01:40

“The idea of this petition is not to stick to office. As counsel I cannot say certain things.” Lalit hinted at other reasons for his agitation.

To this, Justice Lodha shot back: “I will not use the expression dirty linen washed in public. But if it has come to such a stage, you can wash".

:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RamaY » 11 Feb 2012 02:05

After reading the above IE report, SC's point makes lot of sense.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 11 Feb 2012 02:18

The SC has spoken.IDev has put the matter in proper perspective.Though I also personally feel that Gen.Singh's correct DOB is as he has stated,a DOB of 1951,thanks to a wrong entry by him a long time ago and the discrepancy in the IA's records showing it as 1950,is most unfortunate for him at this moment in time,as he had agreed to the same earlier ( whether under pressure or not by his predecessors) to benefit from a past moment in time,without adding the words "without prejudice" as I said right from the start if he wished to continue to prove his case.In the eyes of the SC this "acceptance" by him proved that he was comfortable with the DOB of 1950.He did not provide any correspondence to prove his contention that his predecesors had agreed to corect the DOB as he had requested.

“Perhaps I am being looked at by some people who say that this General is lying,” Lalit responded after a moment’s pause.

“No, no, you have been honest, candid. But in January 2008, you left it to the authorities to take a final call. You said you will abide by their decision. If they have taken a decision you must honour the commitment. This (May 10, 1950) may not be the actual date of birth, but the dispute before us is not that, it is only regarding the recognition of date of birth according to your official records. Remember, service is governed by rules and the recognised date does not suffer any perversity or error as agitated under our extraordinary jurisdiction. That is our prima facie view,” Justice Lodha said.

“Yes, no prejudice was done to you,” Justice Gokhale echoed.

“And still they (the Union of India) have faith in you. I fail to understand how by us recording your date of birth as May 10, 1951 and with you retiring on May 31, 2012 it will help you,” Justice Lodha observed.



This fatally compromised his stand.As someone suggested,he should've fought it out at that point (in 2008) on a matter of principle.In the absence of any other material to back his case up that he was promised redresssal of the discrepancy,the SC has spoken as it has.

Austin and Sanjay have listed out the salient points of the case.Gen. VKS in accepting his "wrong" DOB actually "fell on his own sword" a long time ago.However,the manner in which the entire matter has been aired in the public domain shows up all parties in a poor light,who must collectively share the blame.In what measure each must share is left to speculation,depending upon each one's point of view.

In simple language,what journos like SU,RC,etc.,who were critical of the attitude of the good general were trying to point out ,is that "you cannot have your cake and eat it too",which is what in essence the SC has reiterated.Therein lies the lesson for future generations of generals,air marshals and admirals.None have "won",all are losers.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2012 02:28

Agreed, Rahul Bedi points out in this article in Hindu!

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 875966.ece

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajrang » 11 Feb 2012 05:41

The whole thing is so bizzare I don't know if this calls for worry, embarassment or amusement.

Quoting from the link below - "The matter was discussed in the Army and the ministry, and you accepted that it be 1950. ------ Having given that commitment, it does not befit a meritorious officer like you to take such a stand at the fag end of the (sic) career."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gen- ... 843085.cms

Quoting from eklavya link above "But you have achieved, you have got what a person aspires for in the army. Why should you, having reached there, having given the commitments repeatedly. why this mess now?"

After the admonishing words used by the SC (at times like a teacher admonishing a school boy), one has to be thick skinned or an ostrich in the sand to imagine that honor is intact.

I am sorry for Gen Singh. For starters he should fire whoever gave him legal advise.
Last edited by rajrang on 11 Feb 2012 05:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Feb 2012 05:56

rajrang wrote:
Quoting from the link below - "The matter was discussed in the Army and the ministry, and you accepted that it be 1950. ------ Having given that commitment, it does not befit a meritorious officer like you to take such a stand at the fag end of the (sic) career."



This, in fact was a comment I head from more than one senior retired military officer.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 11 Feb 2012 05:59

the message is - either crash an burn early if you stand for what is right; and if you compromise (howsoever carefully) then it will be held against you. The General was not doomed by "acceptance of 1950 in organizational. interest" but doomed the moment he was *asked to accept". If he did not accept he would be denied what was due to him. On the other hand, the "acceptance", even if under duress, takes away his right to redress. Either way the bureaucrats were going to "win"

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 11 Feb 2012 08:25


ramana
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2012 08:32

Pandyan, Its bad all around. The hope is there wont be a repetition. A judgment either way would be bad all around. The SC arbitrated and VKS stepped back from the abyss. He has walked away from a huge mess.
Hope this is the end of Curzon's crusade.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SagarAg » 11 Feb 2012 09:09

[Self Deleted] Wrong dhaaga.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2012 09:23

Ajat, As I posted earlier there is truth and there is justice.

Justice is what the laws allow.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 11 Feb 2012 10:55

All of us are well aware of the maxim - " Success is a b@stard whereas failure is an orphan".

VKS has done what he thought was the best to free himself, the position he holds and the army he commands from the clutches that do not have any goodwill or good intentions towards them. At least he will not be blamed for not trying to stem a systemic behaviour in which the Generals/ Admirals/ Air marshals suck up to the Politcian- Bureaucrat nexus. At present he has come a cropper and i feel that more than him, it is a big loss to the country. The loss will be perceived in real measure in future conflicts and stand offs.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 11 Feb 2012 11:11

Nikhil T wrote:
Sanku wrote:quote="Sanjay">>The COAS is still the COAS and is not a destitute..

In his own words, he is being treated worse than what GoI treats Paki Army chief.

So much for that above assertion.


How the hell can you put words in his mouth? This is getting ridiculous - in your effort to vouch for the Army Chief you've contracted the 'Holier that the Pope' syndrome.

Clearly, the "treated like a Paki army chief" statement was a DDM since the Indian Army HQ itself denied it.

Indian Army denies VK Singh's 'Pakistan Army' comments


I am sorry, "Indian Army" denying a comment made by Chief off the record :rotfl:

You my dear boy, deserve all the kudos you can get.

By the way, that comment has been confirmed by Maroof Raza and others too, so there are multiple independent corroboration -- and what did you expect IA will say to Chiefs personal remark to his friends?

:lol:

You disregard whatever is written against the good General's legal case and jump to accept anything that other DDMs write in favor of his case, even when the General himself has disregarded those report himself. Strange.



Nonsense, I am not disregarding anything, in case of SC proceedings (not judgements) all the matter is directly before me through public channels, I am therefore not obliged to trust the spin and hatchet jobs by low lives in the media claiming something on behalf of SC.

I know exactly what SC spoke about (its public everyone knows) -- therefore if some one says "SC made a decisions and its judgement says" --- it is quite possible to call them out as sellers of snake oil.

SC BY ITS OWN ADMISSION did not want to get into details and ran away (the politically correct term is circumvented the explosive situation) by making both the Govt and the Chief withdraw from their positions.

This however does not solve the real problem -- merely defuses the standoff.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 11 Feb 2012 11:14

One fall out of this situation is that it has been another of those moments which are fav of B-ji, it forces people to take sides -- and we see the true colors of each and everyone.

IA and its officer cadre are going to consider their civilian counterparts and media folks in a new light.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby brvarsh » 11 Feb 2012 11:16

So a decorated Officer was denied what was truthfully his. Too much mess of technicalities and honor your commitment stuff. As a politicial you can go ahead and "gaban" billions of dollars of National money but as a service man you have to obey your commitments. Aren't these politicians bound by the commitments they made to people during election campaigns? Who's going to teach them to honor theirs?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Feb 2012 11:27

At present he has come a cropper and i feel that more than him, it is a big loss to the country. The loss will be perceived in real measure in future conflicts and stand offs.


Any future loss in war will also be given a spin and termed as "strategic retreat" for the people to swallow...Yesterday I saw that ex-diplomat K.P Singh (?) in Times Now frothing at the General. I don't know why the programme was discontinued (or did I miss it?) Even in defeat (for the General) he didn't want to be graceful - wonder how one can call him a diplomat! - The idiot was saying when the crisis in Maldives is on he should be directing the Army about operational matters rather than spending time with his counsel discussing over phone whether to withdraw petition or not!!

If these are the clowns around who need to be protected, then IMO, military service is no more a noble profession. These people think (As B.Raman put it sometimes back), for the soldier, death is an occupational hazard!! They don't realise that, though everybody serves the nation one way or other, it is only the soldier who carries on with his job knowing fully well that he may have to make the ultimate sacrifice one day, while performing his duties. Others don't have to do it.

We have become a nation of thankless people. It doesn't rest there now. We have started ridiculing the soldier as well. God Save the country!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sachin » 11 Feb 2012 12:16

I was reading a local vernacular paper today. It notes that, if Gen.VKS Singh retires on May 30th, the next COAS would be Gen. B.Singh. But if he resigns today, it would be another officer Gen. S. Ghosh (??), who would become the COAS. How far is this true?
Mathrubhumi (Malayalam)
PS: I also add this comment because in some previous posts there were some findings that Gen.VK Singh is troubled so much so that another officer, gets a chance to become the COAS.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 11 Feb 2012 12:19

^^The government can decide to refuse his resignation if they really want only a certain officer to be COAS.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 11 Feb 2012 12:26

^If VKS resigns this day, there will be a political seesaw within the govt. The first choice(Bikram Singh) is that of MMS and the second choice(Gen Ghosh) has the support of Pranab.

Yes, the govt may refuse to accept his resignation. If MMS has his way, which I think he will, the present vice-chief will officiate for the next three and a half months.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 11 Feb 2012 12:27

@Marten is correct, but I speculate the time limit is 5.00 pm on Monday.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 11 Feb 2012 12:29

In case he chooses to resign, VKS will lose his rank and pension. He has the option to take a Presidential sanction to keep both.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 11 Feb 2012 12:29

nachiket wrote:^^The government can decide to refuse his resignation if they really want only a certain officer to be COAS.

I understand the spectrum of possibilities are (in increasing order of improbability)

1. Reject resignation, asking VKS to continue his full term till May (this option will paper over the taters of VKS honor and as a sop to Mil-Civil relations). I think this is the likeliest.
2. Accepting the resignation, Asking Vice to step up in care taker position till next incumbent is selected
3. Accepting resignation, selecting GoI favorite out of turn as the next boss immediately
4. Accepting resignation, selecting whoever is senior most on the day of resignation as next chief
5. VKS may decide he would find it preferable to stick around till May himself. This would be very strange.
6. GoI kicks out VKS. Most unlikely.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 11 Feb 2012 12:38

Badar wrote:
nachiket wrote:^^The government can decide to refuse his resignation if they really want only a certain officer to be COAS.

I understand the spectrum of possibilities are (in increasing order of improbability)

1. Reject resignation, asking VKS to continue his full term till May (this option will paper over the taters of VKS honor and as a sop to Mil-Civil relations). I think this is the likeliest.


Badar mian, those who earn honor in service and war, do not lose it in a game of dice, let it be a lesson to those who do not understand honor.

Second, Govt will do something to support Gen VK Singhs honor. :rotfl: Those so and so's which were going all out to screw Indian Army chief while cooing like a dove to Pakis?

Pass us the pipe will you. You have a good thing going there.


6. GoI kicks out VKS. Most unlikely.


Yes, they prefer back stabbing and other such dubious fun games, to take a overt and clear action would require balls, guts and spine.

All of which they cut up and threw as offering to the high command (assuming they had any) when they jumped on the gravy train.

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 11 Feb 2012 13:00

Sachin wrote:I was reading a local vernacular paper today. It notes that, if Gen.VKS Singh retires on May 30th, the next COAS would be Gen. B.Singh. But if he resigns today, it would be another officer Gen. S. Ghosh (??), who would become the COAS. How far is this true?
Mathrubhumi (Malayalam)
PS: I also add this comment because in some previous posts there were some findings that Gen.VK Singh is troubled so much so that another officer, gets a chance to become the COAS.


As per most media outlets thats the likely outcome. However ndtv is suggesting that Gen Alhuwalia,CAC stands a chance if Gen vks resigns before end of feb....the mod and ahq will also need to look at Gen SRG's medical records to ensure he has been medically upgraded per procedure

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 11 Feb 2012 13:17

Sanku wrote:
Badar wrote:^^The government can decide to refuse his resignation if they really want only a certain officer to be COAS.

I understand the spectrum of possibilities are (in increasing order of improbability)

1. Reject resignation, asking VKS to continue his full term till May (this option will paper over the taters of VKS honor and as a sop to Mil-Civil relations). I think this is the likeliest.


Badar mian, those who earn honor in service and war, do not lose it in a game of dice, let it be a lesson to those who do not understand honor.

Second, Govt will do something to support Gen VK Singhs honor. :rotfl: Those so and so's which were going all out to screw Indian Army chief while cooing like a dove to Pakis?

Pass us the pipe will you. You have a good thing going there.


6. GoI kicks out VKS. Most unlikely.


Yes, they prefer back stabbing and other such dubious fun games, to take a overt and clear action would require balls, guts and spine.

All of which they cut up and threw as offering to the high command (assuming they had any) when they jumped on the gravy train.[/quote]

Well the SC had stated that no prejudice has been shown to General VKS throughout this case...Of Course doubts can be cast on the SC but remember the SC said they could have dealt with this case in two minutes but gave two hours for this case considering the importance of the COAS and the issue

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 11 Feb 2012 13:27

If the judges of SC think they are god and therefore infallible in front of mortals then they are sadly mistaken. This is not the first instance. They have been proven wrong before.

OTOH
http://www.firstpost.com/india/real-les ... 10191.html

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 11 Feb 2012 13:57

sanku wrote:Badar mian, those who earn honor in service and war, do not lose it in a game of dice, let it be a lesson to those who do not understand honor.

There are dime a dozen people who lost all honor gained in service and war.

You simply choose to characterize everyone who disagrees with you as 'haters'. I find you and your methods of discourse distasteful.

Second, Govt will do something to support Gen VK Singhs honor.

Frankly he doesn't deserve it either. The office of the COAS on the other hand...

Pass us the pipe will you. You have a good thing going there.

You are an ass sir. You go to the ignore bit-bucket.
Last edited by Badar on 11 Feb 2012 14:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 11 Feb 2012 14:09

Ajatshatru wrote:
6. GoI kicks out VKS. Most unlikely.

If I may....may I suggest not using words like 'kicks out' etc.
If such a sentiment has to be expressed by a poster, this could, perhaps, be better rephrased as 'GOI compulsorily retires VKS'....
Whatever the personal opinion of a few BRF members on Gen.V.K.Singh, he still is, at present, the Army chief....moreover, whether we may agree (or not) with his recent action, at least let us show some respect for the man.

I mean no disrespect nor am I advocating a particular course of action, GoI will "fire" or "relieve" him if it pleases you.

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 11 Feb 2012 14:11

Badar wrote:
sunnydee wrote:Badar mian, those who earn honor in service and war, do not lose it in a game of dice, let it be a lesson to those who do not understand honor.

There are dime a dozen people who lost all honor gained in service and war.

You simply choose to characterize everyone who disagrees with you as 'haters'. I find you and your methods of discourse distasteful.

Second, Govt will do something to support Gen VK Singhs honor.

Frankly he doesn't deserve it either. The office of the COAS on the other hand...

Pass us the pipe will you. You have a good thing going there.

You are an ass sir.

In your excitement you seem to have pasted the same reply under two names. You and your sock-puppet go to the ignore bit-bucket.


Mate - i was just quoting another poster ..but for some reason it didnt come out the way it was....my response is only is only the last two sentences of the original post

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 11 Feb 2012 14:14

Mate - i was just quoting another poster ..but for some reason it didnt come out the way it was....my response is only is only the last two sentences

I understand. Socket puppet quote withdrawn. No issues with you sunnydee.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sanjeevpunj » 11 Feb 2012 14:18

I just do not see why the press throws fits when a top brass is retiring. Looks like some vested interests push for the ouster of reputed and respectable Generals like Gen. V K Singh, and they use the press to whip up hullabaloo? Court has exonerated Gen V K Singh, and it is totally upto him to choose to take the next step. The main thing is he has not been judged by the court, but merely directed to withdraw the petition.and for god's sake, GOI has not won anything here.GOI is a system, it is not a persona, that will win or lose.Hell with the press, let them go rake up controversies about Sonia shedding tears, or Chidu dropping his pants.Leave the Army alone please.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby peter » 11 Feb 2012 14:40

Badar wrote:[...]
Frankly he doesn't deserve it either.

And why would that be? Because he did not let Antony and Congress and the likes of Omar Abdullah steamroll him in accepting repeal of AFSPA? Grow up buddy. This Govt has wrecked the image of Army. It is just a travesty that Chinese are languishing inside our borders, Sonia is shedding tears for terrorists and GOI is asleep.

We did need a person of VKS's mettle as COAS not the likes of paper pushers who will bend over backwards in front of GOI (read DK, JJ, Vij).

Badar wrote:
Pass us the pipe will you. You have a good thing going there.

You are an ass sir. You go to the ignore bit-bucket.


I am afraid you have not looked at the mirror in a long time. If that does'nt help ask someone if there is any difference between your speech and braying?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby peter » 11 Feb 2012 14:46

sunnydee wrote:
Well the SC had stated that no prejudice has been shown to General VKS throughout this case...Of Course doubts can be cast on the SC but remember the SC said they could have dealt with this case in two minutes but gave two hours for this case considering the importance of the COAS and the issue


I wonder if there is a constitutional breakdown here. Not being a lawyer, can the GOI set the DOB of any Indian as it feels like? Let us say tomorrow somebody gives in writing their DOB is 13th March 1985 but the Xth class certificate shows 13th March 1987. Why would a person's personal affidavit matter and not the Xth class cert?

IMHO Supreme Court's (lack of) ruling is atrocious. Only time will tell if Lodha and Co get plum posts.

sunnydee

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sunnydee » 11 Feb 2012 14:56

peter wrote:I wonder if there is a constitutional breakdown here. Not being a lawyer, can the GOI set the DOB of any Indian as it feels like? Let us say tomorrow somebody gives in writing their DOB is 13th March 1985 but the Xth class certificate shows 13th March 1987. Why would a person's personal affidavit matter and not the Xth class cert?

IMHO Supreme Court's (lack of) ruling is atrocious. Only time will tell if Lodha and Co get plum posts.


In the scenario which have you have observed why would someone give it in writing that their dob is 85 and not 87 ? If its a government servant did this happen in the first two years of service ?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Feb 2012 15:05

The General is a Honest and Upright person and something even GOI and SC has said in equal words.

Not sure what had happened to him in the fag end of this tenure , probably he thought since the Gov is in so much scam , let me make most of it as by birth certificate which is considered as the most appropriate piece of record he can make his claim look genuine and can get that extra one year.

Probably he thought the 3 promotion he got accepting DOB as 1950 will get nullified if he claims he had done under pressure or greater good of the Army and something he thought the SC will accept it.

Then to make his claim sound upright and passionate he made use of words like Honour and Dignity to support his claim and get more media sympathy which he used to the hilt.

Fortunately the SC saw his game plan and upheld 1950 as his DOB for Service Record and Retirement.

Its really unfortunate that such a Honest and Upright person would end up being such an Opportunist in the end.

A Sad end to the other wise Good General but Govt and SC has been Gracious enough to still keep faith in him and SC holding up his Honour and Dignity.

Never Mind Shit happens in Democracy and one of the reason why our Supreme Courts are most respected institution in this country.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Feb 2012 15:07

In the scenario which have you have observed why would someone give it in writing that their dob is 85 and not 87 ? If its a government servant did this happen in the first two years of service ?


Ha! now the thief is questioning the sentry? The Army Chief didn't give in in writing, but it was extracted from him. So your question should be reframed as to read : what was the scenario in which the Govt tells it employee that such and such is his date of birth irrespective of what is in your school certificate of DoB certificate and he is asked to give it in writing that he accepts whatever the Govt says..nothing funny about it??

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby geeth » 11 Feb 2012 15:08

The General was a Honest and Upright person and something even GOI and SC has said in equal words.


He still he is..and per your own words, even the SC and Govt has acknowledged it. Now don't try and give your spin to it!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 11 Feb 2012 15:10

Austin wrote:...
Never Mind Shit happens in Democracy and one of the reason why our Supreme Courts are most respected institution in this country.


In this forum too, like you are doing.


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