Indian Army: News & Discussion

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jan 2012 18:13

Bala Vignesh wrote:Sanku sir,
Could you please post a link for the news???

Discussions live right now on TimesNow Tv and here is rediff link for live update
17.59
18.10

http://news.rediff.com/commentary/2012/ ... pdates.htm

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 16 Jan 2012 18:14

Its saddening to see the current state of affairs where a serving general of the nation's army has been forced to take the Govt of the nation to court..
But someone needed to teach the babudom and politicos their lessons. For that, the good general gets my whole hearted support..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Jan 2012 18:17

May the almighty grant him wisdom and protection from evil...we finally have a yug purush. Apart from getting the wrong rectified, his image as an upright army officer with honor and dignity will do a world of good for the image of the IA and Services. Amen.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 16 Jan 2012 18:19

Bala Vignesh wrote:Its saddening to see the current state of affairs where a serving general of the nation's army has been forced to take the Govt of the nation to court..
But someone needed to teach the babudom and politicos their lessons. For that, the good general gets my whole hearted support..

+1

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 16 Jan 2012 18:20

Right after what would be his last Army day parade.... I'm ready to bet he planned it that way!!!

Yo baby..... good...very good...outstanding.....

I'm proud of you. Just when the smart asses thought that the Gen was silenced by a vaugue "we need you" "we like you" type speech. Rub it in dear. Rub it in their faces.

I will pray for your success in SC. Once you win, demand written apology...

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 16 Jan 2012 18:22

rohitvats wrote:May the almighty grant him wisdom and protection from evil...we finally have a yug purush. Apart from getting the wrong rectified, his image as an upright army officer with honor and dignity will do a world of good for the image of the IA and Services. Amen.

+ 1 Million

&

Amen!!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jan 2012 18:24

This single step , no matter what the outcome, would change forever the way promotions are given in Forces. That itself would streamline the process and Govt of the day or the promoting authority would have to think twice before resorting to fudging. Army would change forever, for better.Honor and Dignity above all.
VKS is a Man of History " Yug Purush" very rightly said, rohitvats.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jan 2012 18:27

anirban_aim wrote:

I will pray for your success in SC. Once you win, demand written apology...

Apology?? You know who would have to resign even if verdict comes after 31st May. Egg and Tomato .

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 16 Jan 2012 18:29

Age row: VK Singh, Army chief, takes government to court
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 512955.cms

Time to show whose the Boss..

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 16 Jan 2012 18:32

chaanakya wrote:
anirban_aim wrote:

I will pray for your success in SC. Once you win, demand written apology...
Apology?? You know who would have to resign even if verdict comes after 31st May. Egg and Tomato .

My good sir, That is part of the fight!!! and I've no bone to pick with you!!! I believe we both are on the same side of the fence aren't we?

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 16 Jan 2012 18:33

It amazes me what nasha of power can do to people. Arrogance of forcing someone to change one's DOB sounds like the epitome of "Mad" displayed by MOD. General V.K. Singh is a brave man for standing up to GOI, a man of honor indeed (needs a lot of conviction in one's own decisions). Only in such a man can million+ individuals put their lives on line.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jan 2012 18:39

anirban_aim wrote:
My good sir, That is part of the fight!!! and I've no bone to pick with you!!! I believe we both are on the same side of the fence aren't we?

yes , Absolutely. What I meant is that matter is past apology. Demand should be of resignations. Written apology would not suffice.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 Jan 2012 19:39

Indian Army saves life of a pregnant woman in J&K

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jan 2012 19:47

Age row: VK Singh, Army chief, takes government to court

NEW DELHI: In an unprecedented move, India's Army chief General V K Singh has filed a writ petition in a court against the government after it failed to handle the age controversy successfully. The General may move to Supreme Court, reports said.

Later speaking on the controversy over his age, Singh tolds to Times Now: "The issue is that of integrity and honour." The General said the matter has always been tackled by him in the "organisational interest".

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true

In writ petition, he is believed to have questioned the government’s decision to treat his date of birth as May 10,1950 instead of May 10,1951 as claimed by him on the basis of his matriculation certificate and other documents.

This is the first time that any Service chief has dragged the government to the court of law.

The petition has been filed and senior advocate U U Lalit will represent Gen Singh before the apex court.

In his petition, Gen Singh has said the matter related to his “honour and integrity” as he headed a force of 13 lakh personnel.

Questions government's move

He questioned why the government had chosen to “change” his date of birth after he had spent 36 years in service and promoted throughout the career.

It was never a question of correction but as to why Govt changed his DOB after all these years.
As expected , a Writ petition , more likely a Certiorified Mandamus. Preempts lot of things.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Jan 2012 20:30

First it is not a writ as wrongly reported. It is a SLP ( Special leave petition) and the scope of investegation under SLP will be limited compared to Writ before the High Court. But I am of the view the power of the SC will be sufficient in hte present case. The problem with Singhji is that he has given undertakings not the raise the issue of age after his promotion. Now he takes the same issue. The question of law is if he is barred from raising the issue now after having agreed not to raise it.

If Singhji wins it will be on the basis of the finding that his undertaking is forced from him and he was forced to give such undertakings under a threat that he will be not promoted unless he gives such undertaking.

If there is such finding from Supreme Court than BOY O BOY O BOY.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 16 Jan 2012 20:31

^that the DoB of VKS was purportedly changed in 2006 has become clear from his writ petition. if the court asks him to prove it to be so rather than ask the govt to deny it, which i think it will, then the players behind the episode and their handlers will be exposed.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jan 2012 21:11

Narayana Rao wrote:First it is not a writ as wrongly reported. It is a SLP ( Special leave petition) and the scope of investegation under SLP will be limited compared to Writ before the High Court. But I am of the view the power of the SC will be sufficient in hte present case. The problem with Singhji is that he has given undertakings not the raise the issue of age after his promotion. Now he takes the same issue. The question of law is if he is barred from raising the issue now after having agreed not to raise it.

If Singhji wins it will be on the basis of the finding that his undertaking is forced from him and he was forced to give such undertakings under a threat that he will be not promoted unless he gives such undertaking.

If there is such finding from Supreme Court than BOY O BOY O BOY.

I am sure you know the procedure. SLP is filed to appeal a judgement of another court/tribunals. What VKS has filed is indeed a writ petition. Habeas Corpus is admitted invariably while other WPs are at the discretion of SC.

HC has more power since it can issue direction, instruction, injunction or any other order including writ orders under Art 226. SC is limited to Writ Jurisdiction only.This was pointed out earlier.But HC verdicts can be challenged in SC and hence not the final verdict. SC verdicts tend to have finality unless question of constitutional Law is involved and Govt wants it reviewed before a larger bench.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jan 2012 21:22

nelson wrote:^that the DoB of VKS was purportedly changed in 2006 has become clear from his writ petition. if the court asks him to prove it to be so rather than ask the govt to deny it, which i think it will, then the players behind the episode and their handlers will be exposed.

That was clear at the outset. But court would not ask him to prove. He would have produced all documents and facts of the case and seek specific relief and interim relief. Govt would have to accept or deny facts and provide documents and facts in support of that. Here Govt would have no option but to disclose all facts and documents and something not presented before the court would have no relevance otherwise.
Now the question is when it is listed for admission and when Govt files its response and when hearings take place. SC might take up earlier but generally Govt request for early hearing is conceded, if there is one. Else all writs are heard on FIFO basis and listed in cause list accordingly. But first of all Registry has to number it on admission.

Of course it would expose all the murky dealings and players behind it. Politicians had it coming and they thought VKS would be cowed down and perhaps agree to get higher pension for partial deafness .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2012 21:53

Its time to cage the Curzon Tiger inherited by INC.
The advice of those who want him to resign is irrelevant or non-sequitor.
The critical issue is if the govt can force someone to change the DOB after the fact, post facto?

That they have some correspondence to agree to is also irrelevant as it could be under duress. When he signed that letter he didnt know he could be the Chief. So he might have agreed to under duress to get the promotion that he was due to get at that time.

Even if he loses the appeal, it cages the Tiger which is has turned military eater.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Jan 2012 22:04

If going to Court is a justification for asking for resignation from a Govt Servant then half the Govt servants in civil sector would have to resign and that would include many top civil servants. Such suggestions show desperation of manipulators to get out of this catch 22 situation. Even if he loses the case Govt would have earned the infamy of Army Chief going to Court during UPA-II. How low can it get.

Further it is a remedy available to everyone and VKS has chosen to exercise it. He can not be asked to resign nor can he be penalised for that.

The argument about loss of confidence is a load of bullsh!t. Govt can not even sack him without due process, certainly not when matter is sub judis.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Jan 2012 22:15

tejas wrote:I hope the current useless Raksha mantri is forced to resign and the new one is forced to wear pants

[youtube][/youtube]

Present RM is said to be a very Honest one. Which in Babu lingo means that he will take no decision. Coming to wearing the Pants, better someone with B*lls that just wearing Pants with no stuff inside. Of course it is too much to expect any one honesty and courage in the present UPA gang.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 16 Jan 2012 22:31

tejas wrote:I hope the current useless Raksha mantri is forced to resign and the new one is forced to wear pants

Is the red font portion really necessary to reinforce the larger issue you raise in the black font. Please consider re-editing it to make your argument not sound petty.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 17 Jan 2012 00:38

As per my source, the General was offered governorship/ambassadorship and other benefits if he left quietly, but he refused.

Part of the fault lies with the past Generals too, who have been too accommodating to the babus/mantris and have happily taken post-retirement benefits for toeing the official govt. line.

This General was expected to play by the same rules.

Oops.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 17 Jan 2012 01:11

I hope the current useless Raksha mantri is forced to resign and the new one is forced to wear pants

Well I certainly didn't mean to high light anything in red. As my dad used to wear a lungi around the house all the time, my rant was not against the lungi per se but the wearing of lungis by multi millionaires to somehow appear to sympathize with common man. My post seems to mysteriously vanished in any event.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 17 Jan 2012 03:17

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-9- ... /221256?hp

Vishnu Som at NDTV is completely out of his depth, again, with the leading questions he is asking and for the ill thought out title to his chat. Last time he put his foot in his mouth was when he, on BR, questioned the due diligence done by the IAF in making their selection for the MMRCA.

Now let's go to the debate on the same matter on Times Now...

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-Army-Chie ... 393841.cms

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-Army-Chie ... 393842.cms

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-Army-Chie ... 393843.cms

I wonder what Mr. Poonawala brings to the table, other than a heckler's approach to a serious debate.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Jan 2012 04:19

wonder what prevented these guys with so called high integrity to word it as " Has the Govt insulted and humiliated the army? "

The hits keep coming - good thing is now we know where they stand

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2012 04:27

Agree. Monitoring the headlines gives a good snapshot of where the media sources are coming from. Maybe take it to the media watch thread?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2012 04:40

Telegraph, Kolkota writes

Battle without parallel

And goes on to compare with TSPA, Gen McChrystal and Adm Bhagwat.

TSPA comparison is not correct for over there its a matter of restoring civil authority.
Gen McChrystal had undermined President Obama's policy directives in Afghanistan
Adm Bhagwat had also sought not to implement govt orders.

Yet the reporter in Telegraph sees parallels due to his wearing INC glasses.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 17 Jan 2012 05:29

ManuJ wrote:As per my source, the General was offered governorship/ambassadorship and other benefits if he left quietly, but he refused.

Part of the fault lies with the past Generals too, who have been too accommodating to the babus/mantris and have happily taken post-retirement benefits for toeing the official govt. line.

This General was expected to play by the same rules.

Oops.

Why would this government want him to become Governor of Nagaland or Mizo or Goa when he can do what he is best in doing for few more months?

Isn't it so clear that someone in Goverment want to bring a guy in whom they think is their buddy?

kunalverma · Post by **kunalverma** » 17 Jan 2012 06:22

Dr Subramanium Swamy had offered to add his name to the PIL filed by the Grenadier's Association. He wrote a letter to the PM on the 14th after meeting with Mr AK Antony, advising the PM to quickly intervene and resolve this ridiculous situation from getting worse.
In his letter to the PM, the Janta Dal President clearly states that the Defence Minister agreed with the fact that the Chief was being wronged but he could do nothing about it as the orders had come from above.
Last night, Dr Swamy visited the Chief at Army House shortly after news of the case being filed was on the air. Dr Swamy expressed his full support to VKS and gave a copy of his letter to the PM to the General and to me. I'll try and scan it shortly and forward it to BR before the press get hold of it. Quite frankly, the letter says it all!

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 17 Jan 2012 06:56

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guHVFhhWqWQ

General V. K Singh...

kunalverma · Post by **kunalverma** » 17 Jan 2012 07:02

In my book, 'The Long Road to Siachen: The Question Why' I had drawn attention to the Exercise, Lal Qila, and quoted extensively from the Thorat Papers. For 50 years the lament of all Military Historians has been that why could no one stand up to the establishment and tell the truth! In putting the blame on the soldier for the '62 defeat, the seal was put by erecting a statue next to Sena Bhawan and even naming the road after Krishna Menon. And we let it happen!
VKS may be saying its between him and the GOI - well, civil-military relations have always been a touchy subject! In this case (the age issue) its a bit of a smoke screen really. Since 2006, four senior officers have been 'eliminated' from the rat race. They are Brig Padam Budhwar, Maj Generals Ravi Arora, AK Singh and Sujan Chatterjee. The fifth name in 'Moses's list' in the parting of the waters was VKS...
It's about time someone stood up and I for one can't understand why some of our learned commentators on TV feel the Chief should have resigned. While shooting the NDA film, the Standard Bearers I always found myself grinning whenever a cadet would question the age old notion people had of joining the army and dying for your country. 'Why should we die? They would ask, 'our job is to make the other guy die for his country.' So let the truth prevail!
For years everyone has been whinning about never standing up for even basic rights as the Armed Forces got eroded into. Leadership is nothing but a question of honesty, fair play and justice! Its time we faced up to the fact that politics has crept into the Armed Forces. The sequence of events post 2006 really need to be scrutinized, and systems put in place to never let a similar situation develop again. If anything, history has taught us that the gates to India have always been opened from within!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2012 07:06

kunalverma wrote:Dr Subramanium Swamy had offered to add his name to the PIL filed by the Grenadier's Association. He wrote a letter to the PM on the 14th after meeting with Mr AK Antony, advising the PM to quickly intervene and resolve this ridiculous situation from getting worse.
In his letter to the PM, the Janta Dal President clearly states that the Defence Minister agreed with the fact that the Chief was being wronged but he could do nothing about it as the orders had come from above.
Last night, Dr Swamy visited the Chief at Army House shortly after news of the case being filed was on the air. Dr Swamy expressed his full support to VKS and gave a copy of his letter to the PM to the General and to me. I'll try and scan it shortly and forward it to BR before the press get hold of it. Quite frankly, the letter says it all!

kunal, Can you explain above?

kunalverma · Post by **kunalverma** » 17 Jan 2012 07:07

The implication is the PM himself.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2012 07:15

So lightning strikes again after 50 years!

So Swamy appealing to MMS is like the Greek "appealing from Philip drunk to Philip sober?"

BTW last year in a fit of nostalgia I have been reading the memoirs of the post 62 Generals. I can see that the 62 disaster was a political disaster and not a military disaster. It took the US about 25 years to recover from fall of Saigon where as it took Indian military less than ten years to establish pre-eminence in the sub-continent.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jan 2012 07:32

kunalverma wrote:The implication is the PM himself.

Or, higher? Still?

kunalverma · Post by **kunalverma** » 17 Jan 2012 07:38

Well, you know the 'age' old saying, 'Behind every man......' LOL!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Jan 2012 08:00

deleted

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2012 08:09

Folks I don't want any probing or questioning what the serving people think. I don't mind retired people's opinion.

Please consider this as a warning.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 17 Jan 2012 09:40

kunalverma wrote:Dr Subramanium Swamy had offered to add his name to the PIL filed by the Grenadier's Association. He wrote a letter to the PM on the 14th after meeting with Mr AK Antony, advising the PM to quickly intervene and resolve this ridiculous situation from getting worse.
In his letter to the PM, the Janta Dal President clearly states that the Defence Minister agreed with the fact that the Chief was being wronged but he could do nothing about it as the orders had come from above.
Last night, Dr Swamy visited the Chief at Army House shortly after news of the case being filed was on the air. Dr Swamy expressed his full support to VKS and gave a copy of his letter to the PM to the General and to me. I'll try and scan it shortly and forward it to BR before the press get hold of it. Quite frankly, the letter says it all!

Please do scan it for us, Kunal.