Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Surya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 26 Jan 2012 19:07

looks like the mango abdul likes the Hezbollah march :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 26 Jan 2012 19:28

^^ Have to say that it does look very impressive and gives a real picture of their fintness ( and the fact that they keep chanting something even while marching makes the effect even greater).

Only thing missing was SSG style lead officer holding his gun in one hand and pointing towards prez as a salute towards the chief guest!!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 26 Jan 2012 20:06

Austin wrote:Army Chief’s Age Row - Part 4
The General’s Gambit
By Raj Chengappa


<snip>
On 21 January 2008, Julka wrote to General Deepak Kapoor, the then Chief of Army Staff, (COAS) stating: “ It is an oddity that the officer has continued to stand by a date of birth, which is not officially recognised and thereby revealing an attitude apparently questionable and not reflective of the qualities expected from an Army Commander. In view of this, the question of suitability of Lt Gen VK Singh as Army Commander calls for a revisit.”
<snip>


To all those who question the need for VKS to have given written assurances read the article by Raj Chengappa and in particular the quoted portion carefully. This is how the civil services in India work, a Jt Sec questions the Army Chief in a directly addressed letter, the suitability(read pliancy) of a Lt Gen to be an Army Commander. Of course, he would have written this on behalf of his Political Masters(PM).

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 26 Jan 2012 20:11

Didn't anyone notice the position of contingent from The Brigade of Guards and the oddity of the same?
Oh! and BTW, does anyone recognize the badge on the Lt.Col. (from Arty) leading the DRDO contingent?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 26 Jan 2012 20:19

rohitvats wrote:Didn't anyone notice the position of contingent from The Brigade of Guards and the oddity of the same?
Oh! and BTW, does anyone recognize the badge on the Lt.Col. (from Arty) leading the DRDO contingent?

I didn't watch the parade, but they lose precedence?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 26 Jan 2012 20:26

rohitvats wrote:Oh! and BTW, does anyone recognize the badge on the Lt.Col. (from Arty) leading the DRDO contingent?


UAV Troop Badge. Have a closer look

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 26 Jan 2012 20:36

Badar wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Didn't anyone notice the position of contingent from The Brigade of Guards and the oddity of the same?<SNIP>

I didn't watch the parade, but they lose precedence?


Correct. For the first time as far as I know, the contingent was behind couple of other infantry/engineer regiment contingents. I've always seen the contingent as leading the parade. Only the MIR mounted contingent was ahead of them but behind the Armored Corps column (and the mounted ASC column if present). This was keeping in line with Guards being conferred the title of senior most regiment in the IA.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 26 Jan 2012 20:42

chackojoseph wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Oh! and BTW, does anyone recognize the badge on the Lt.Col. (from Arty) leading the DRDO contingent?


UAV Troop Badge. Have a closer look


CJ, are you sure? I mean, have you personally seen this badge/its description? Thanx.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 26 Jan 2012 20:43

rohitvats wrote:
Badar wrote:I didn't watch the parade, but they lose precedence?


Correct. For the first time as far as I know, the contingent was behind couple of other infantry/engineer regiment contingents. I've always seen the contingent as leading the parade. Only the MIR mounted contingent was ahead of them but behind the Armored Corps column (and the mounted ASC column if present). This was keeping in line with Guards being conferred the title of senior most regiment in the IA.

Very interesting... what do you make of it?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Kanson » 26 Jan 2012 20:45

kunalverma wrote:In 2000 I reviewed Weapons of Peace for Biblio and Chengappa got extremely mad at me - in fact he spoke to me for 45 mins on the phone to impress upon me that the book wasn't 'unintelligently' written.

Well, I see one more person apart for me in this forum who explicitly raises question on WoP which is considered by many here as bible of such matters. :D

And those who don't know how babus exhibit themselves and play their role, say, in Indo-Pak talks, well it will be much like the long summary on Army Chief's age to the extent of numbing oneself with flooding and playing with infos. Well If you can still think crystal clear after going throu all those parts, you have to pat yourselves if you are not in legal business or Govt functionaries who are well accustomed to such nuisance. :D

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 26 Jan 2012 20:49

^^^No idea. I'm as foxed. After all, there is a reason that its motto is "Pahla Hamesha Pahla (First Always First)" which I think was a play on "Nulli Secundus" - the motto of Coldstream Guards.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 26 Jan 2012 20:56

rohitvats wrote:^^^No idea. I'm as foxed. After all, there is a reason that its motto is "Pahla Hamesha Pahla (First Always First)" which I think was a play on "Nulli Secundus" - the motto of Coldstream Guards.

Only explanation could be that SG is the hon. colonel of the Para SF, who we know trumps the president :)

Seriously though, if any of your service friends can shed any light on it, please do share it with us.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 26 Jan 2012 21:00

Austin wrote:A matter of Honour vs Propriety - The Twist in the Tale
By Raj Chengappa

Deep in the bowels of South Block, there are two key branches of the Army that have a key role in determining whether General Vijay Kumar Singh, Chief of Army Staff, was right in appealing to the highest court in India to have his date of birth corrected in the records.

The headquarters of both these branches in Delhi are walking distance from each other. Just two flights of stairs away to be precise. Yet the lack of communication between the two over Singh’s date of birth appears to have resulted in the most messy public confrontation between the Army Chief and the Union of India.

On the ground floor of South Block is the Military Secretary's (MS) Branch close to what is known as the Library Section. The MS Branch is responsible for overseeing all annual confidential records, postings and promotions of commissioned officers and maintains their personal files.

On the second floor is the Adjutant General's office that, among other things, is responsible for manpower planning, recruitment and storage of all records of Army personnel. Since there are over 1 million personnel in the Army, the records section is located in West Block No. 3 in RK Puram, around 9 km away.



Shouldn't this a considered a breach of some kind?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 26 Jan 2012 21:22

rohitvats wrote:^^^No idea. I'm as foxed. After all, there is a reason that its motto is "Pahla Hamesha Pahla (First Always First)" which I think was a play on "Nulli Secundus" - the motto of Coldstream Guards.

I believe that the contingent of the Brigade of Guards were in the right position among the marching contingents in colours.

Brigade of the Guards(Pehala hamesha pehala) is the senior most Infantry regiment. Corps of Engineers is senior to all Infantry regiments.
So the contingent of Bengal Engineer Group led the marching contingents in colours, followed by the Brigade of Guards.
Parachute Regiment, in camouflage and in double time, would have broken step of the marching contingents. Hence, it is likely that they were separated from them in the lead.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 26 Jan 2012 21:24

nelson wrote:I believe that the contingent of the Brigade of Guards were in the right position among the marching contingents in colours.

Brigade of the Guards(Pehala hamesha pehala) is the senior most Infantry regiment. Corps of Engineers is senior to all Infantry regiments.
So the contingent of Bengal Engineer Group led the marching contingents in colours, followed by the Brigade of Guards.
Parachute Regiment, in camouflage and in double time, would have broken step of the marching contingents. Hence, it is likely that they were separated from them in the lead.

Thank you nelson. That sounds quite plausible.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 26 Jan 2012 22:20

Deep in the bowels of South Block, there are two key branches of the Army that have a key role in determining whether General Vijay Kumar Singh, Chief of Army Staff, was right in appealing to the highest court in India to have his date of birth corrected in the records.

The headquarters of both these branches in Delhi are walking distance from each other. Just two flights of stairs away to be precise. Yet the lack of communication between the two over Singh’s date of birth appears to have resulted in the most messy public confrontation between the Army Chief and the Union of India.

On the ground floor of South Block is the Military Secretary's (MS) Branch close to what is known as the Library Section. The MS Branch is responsible for overseeing all annual confidential records, postings and promotions of commissioned officers and maintains their personal files.

On the second floor is the Adjutant General's office that, among other things, is responsible for manpower planning, recruitment and storage of all records of Army personnel. Since there are over 1 million personnel in the Army, the records section is located in West Block No. 3 in RK Puram, around 9 km away.



Shouldn't this a considered a breach of some kind?


It is a very simple work around the OSA, these days when a Govt official/ officer wants to pass on information to others/ press. Get the recipient to file an RTI application for the information that is required to be divulged.


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 26 Jan 2012 22:44

Nelson, thanks for the clarification. Makes perfect sense. The parade order was as follows:

"Horse-mounted columns of 61st Cavalry, Parachute Regiment, Bengal Engineer Group & Centre, Brigade of the Guards, Kumaon Regiment, Assam Regiment, Mahar Regiment, Gorkha Rifles Regiment and the Corps of Military Police"

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 26 Jan 2012 23:00

nelson wrote:
Shouldn't this a considered a breach of some kind?


It is a very simple work around the OSA, these days when a Govt official/ officer wants to pass on information to others/ press. Get the recipient to file an RTI application for the information that is required to be divulged.


No, I mean in a way Raj C (senior editor and all that) is in a way saying 'where XYZ sits between mon-fri between 9:00-10:00.' In that sense of the highlighted part. Was that detail needed to be mentioned in the public domain. Not commenting on the story itself.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby vaibhav.n » 26 Jan 2012 23:35

chackojoseph wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Oh! and BTW, does anyone recognize the badge on the Lt.Col. (from Arty) leading the DRDO contingent?


UAV Troop Badge. Have a closer look



I thought this was the UAV Observation Troop Badge.

Link:

http://pib.nic.in/photo//2012/Jan/l2012012538851.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 00/111.jpg

AFAIK, there are two operators
External UAV Operator (responsible for safe take-off and landing)
Internal UAV Operator (responsible for flying the mission itself)

I could be wrong.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 27 Jan 2012 03:31

Reposting what Nelson has quoted from RC's article.We have to thank RC (whatever his personal viewpoint may be) for throwing the max. light on the torturous manner in which this controversy developed over decades.I am sure that RC coming from a military family himself will have written his article well knowing the sensitivities of the issue and keeping in mind the ethos of the IA.

Singh’s adamant approach though seems to have miffed the MoD which began to question the suitability of promoting him. On 21 January 2008, Julka wrote to General Deepak Kapoor, the then Chief of Army Staff, (COAS) stating: “ It is an oddity that the officer has continued to stand by a date of birth, which is not officially recognised and thereby revealing an attitude apparently questionable and not reflective of the qualities expected from an Army Commander. In view of this, the question of suitability of Lt Gen VK Singh as Army Commander calls for a revisit.”


"Ours not to reason why,ours but to do or die.." This sums up the attitude of babudom,whether civilian or military.
Why then were the Nazis put on trial at Nuremberg hanged for alleged war crimes when they said that they were "only obeying orders"?
Gen VKS was given an order and he obeyed .Whether he could've done so without adding the words "without prejudice' and still made it to be chief,is a moot point. If in the estimation of his superiors that he was such a fine outstanding general,worthy of the post of chief,one who for 36+ years had been serving his army with distinction and without controversy,awarded the highest service honours,and rising to the rank of Lt.Gen.,would this bureaucratic issue,in truth an irritant like a stone in the shoe (someone spelling your name or pronouncing it wrongly),have been such a monumental issue on which to deny him his promotion to chief? This is where the "line of succession" conspiracy surfaces and questions begin to be raised as to why there was adamancy on the part of the military establishment to accept the good general's viewpoint.

Whether it was just p*ssed off at his obstinacy and "admancy", the quality thereby not expected of a servile chief whose major duty is expected to be saluting his civilian superiors ,signing on the dotted line when shown to him,and obeying orders like a faithful pet,or that "mischief was afoot " in the succession stakes,is a moot point.Let us sincerely hope that the SC in all its wisdom delivers a verdict reflecting the truth of the matter.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 27 Jan 2012 07:01

who won the best marching award amongst the Army units for 2011???


That Hezbollah marching is another wonderful innovation introduced by the PAra = SF mind of a former Para colonel of Regmt . :P

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby aditp » 27 Jan 2012 07:26

Not sure where else to post, so posting here, just for the records:-


Indira Gandhi Interview 1971

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 27 Jan 2012 09:10

Apologies if this has been posted

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?279698

Indian Army: Whose Personal Fiefdom?
Exposing ‘and punishing’ the conspirators and co-conspirators by the Supreme Court is now as important as giving a verdict on the DOB of General V.K. Singh.
Lt Gen Prakash C. Katoch (Retd)


Somewhere else Austin made the funny point that one can assume all Army chiefs were intelligent etc, Sorry nope (DK is a prime example of dumbness unless being a crook is considered intelligent)

Katoch did not become Army chief but he a brilliant mind and an SF vet to boot.

I will take his word over Chengappa any day.

What it also shows the predominant Army personnel (retired - serving is only through chaiwalla) view is what Rohit has been saying --

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Jan 2012 09:43

Surya, He asks very pertinent questions and brings out nuances. Looks like Bimal Julka is a good guy. All along I thought he was a bad egg. Also the MS branch is a den of bad eggs.

If I recall MS branch was brought about during Curzon's time.

Now who is Katoch implying thinks the IA is their fiefdom? Can't be JJ Singh who is a Chief for a few years. Or is it?



• the Military Secretary in 2006 gives credence to a wrongly filled UPSC application, illegally changes Date of Birth (DOB) of Gen V.K. Singh even in the Army List which he cannot without AG’s Branch confirmation (AG - Adjutant General - being sole authority for age in Army) more than three decades after UPSC accepted the date of birth as 10 May 1951;
• General V.K. Singh’s repeated requests, including the last request to Army Chief in 2008 to ‘reconcile his DOB with AG are deliberately ignored;
• Army Chief in 2008, citing numerous promotion cases held up with Ministry of Defence (MoD), demands General V.K. Singh renders certificate that a decision in organizational interest will be acceptable, assures him of reconciliation of age within Army HQ within a month and subsequently reneges on his promise;
• when Military Secretary (MS) writes to (Ministry of Defence) MoD to fix DOB of General V.K. Singh as 10 May 1950, Bimal Julka, Joint Secretary [JS (G)] disagrees with the line of thinking and directs MS to carry out an inquiry on DOB issue in conjunction with AG;
• instead of carrying out the inquiry, “Inquiry Not To Be Held” is endorsed by the Chief / MS;
• for appointment as Army Chief, MS sends dossier of Gen V.K. Singh to MoD deliberately without his matriculation certificate and MoD instead of asking for the matriculation certificate sends the dossier to the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet;
• MS Branch waits for Bimal Julka to move out as JS(G) and sends the same case to MoD without carrying out any inquiry concurrent to a Parliament question on the issue;
• this time bureaucrats in MoD agree with MS, ignoring earlier directions of Bimal Julka, Supreme Court ruling that matriculation certificate is sole authority for DOB and inputs by AG that the DOB of General V.K. Singh has been 10 May 1951 consistently with them;
• Raksha Mantri (RM) is misled (RM reportedly unofficially admits now as reported by media) to make a statement in Parliament that General V.K. Singh’s DOB is 10 May 1950 – reneging from which would invite political backlash and hence decision to keep reinforcing the lie, hoping General V.K. Singh can be moulded to suit succession by the ‘chosen one’;
• General V.K. Singh’s petition to RM based on ‘reconciliation of age not undertaken by MS’ is deliberately twisted by MoD bureaucrats as petition for ‘change of DOB’ and rejected;
• Joint Secretary signing the rejection letter gives one reason findings of inquiry ordered by MoD that was never held; statutory complaint is similarly rejected to reinforce RM’s Parliament statement despite MoD having received AG Branch inputs as well as MS confirming all promotion boards and decorations of General V.K. Singh are based on his DOB of 10 May 1951;
• Law Minister states “Rules are Rules” – that General V.K. Singh should have applied for change of DOB within three years of commissioning but fails to mention how this rule is applicable when general V.K. Singh never once has asked for change of DOB;
• Attorney General says why Army Chief did not represent between 1971 and 2006 – an absolutely weird observation considering the conspiracy was hatched only in 2006;
• political interlocutors (Track II diplomacy – is he Chief of foreign military?) led by Finance Minister continue rain lullabies and lollipops – why so if government is sure they are right;
• government declares Gen V.K. Singh “outstanding” simultaneous to vitriolic unofficial slander to break him psychologically, stooping lowest in a magazine cover captioning army Chief as “Self Before Service” – unprecedented ignominy on a serving Army Chief anywhere in the world;
• the clique behind the conspiracy including mafia involvement is exposed through YouTube video every bit of which is explosive;
• RRM says the Army Chief petitioning Supreme Court is ‘unhealthy’ ignoring role played by bureaucrats under him and naiveté / involvement of the polity.



If you read the above account, its gotala in the MS branch and not an issue of CMR at all.
So why are the civilians losing sleep over this?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby vic » 27 Jan 2012 10:15

Re Admin:-

Should we not create a specific thread for DOB issue of Chief?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Jan 2012 10:40

It'll blow over in a month or two. Not worth a thread to chronicle the babu perfidy.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Jan 2012 10:43

ramana wrote:<SNIP> Also the MS branch is a den of bad eggs. If I recall MS branch was brought about during Curzon's time.<SNIP>


ramana, the tales of MS Branch are known far and wide in the IA. It is only now that people are hearing about it. It is the closest people can play GOD in IA and indulge in ultimate babugiri.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Badar » 27 Jan 2012 10:49

No Social Nets for the Army.
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/techno ... 57754.html

Sounds kinda drastic.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Jan 2012 10:52

Surya wrote: <SNIP>Katoch did not become Army chief but he a brilliant mind and an SF vet to boot. <SNIP>


Just so everyone knows - Lt.General PC Katoch led the SF assault on Golden Temple in Op. Bluestar leading the combined team of SFF and 1 Para(SF). He was seriously injured.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Jan 2012 10:54

OT: How come Outlook has been neutral/giving space to other side in this case? Another thing - that "journalistic" piece by SU seems to have rattled soldiers far and wide.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 27 Jan 2012 10:56

who is SU?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 27 Jan 2012 11:07

Sandeep Unnithan

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby putnanja » 27 Jan 2012 11:08

viv wrote:who is SU?


Sandeep unnithan

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 27 Jan 2012 11:32

^^thanks

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajrang » 27 Jan 2012 12:47

rohitvats wrote:Nelson, thanks for the clarification. Makes perfect sense. The parade order was as follows:

"Horse-mounted columns of 61st Cavalry, Parachute Regiment, Bengal Engineer Group & Centre, Brigade of the Guards, Kumaon Regiment, Assam Regiment, Mahar Regiment, Gorkha Rifles Regiment and the Corps of Military Police"



I wish someone can upload a picture of each of the above regiments marching during the parade

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 27 Jan 2012 13:06

Badar wrote:No Social Nets for the Army.
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/techno ... 57754.html

Sounds kinda drastic.


Drastic ? Such draconian orders are common place, it seems. Hope they don't ban e-mail and internet altogether.
IMO, our Armed Forces are the most backward and regressive in terms of enabling empowerment of the man on ground with latest technology, particularly in terms IT prowess.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 27 Jan 2012 13:07

http://indiamydreamland.blogspot.com/2012/01/of-matters-military-chief-goes-to-court.html

Another well balanced view of VKS going to court. This time by Maj Gen (retd) Mrinal Suman.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Jan 2012 13:24

nelson wrote:
Badar wrote:No Social Nets for the Army.
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/techno ... 57754.html

Sounds kinda drastic.


Drastic ? Such draconian orders are common place, it seems. Hope they don't ban e-mail and internet altogether.
IMO, our Armed Forces are the most backward and regressive in terms of enabling empowerment of the man on ground with latest technology, particularly in terms IT prowess.


nelson, I think the order came about because of men/women using the social media to discuss things best left out of public domain. In addition, the pics posted online sometimes go beyond the appropriate level. I've seen pics which I don't think should have been public domain. Yes, most of net users from Services are quite sensitive to what they share/put on net, there are cases of negligence.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 27 Jan 2012 13:41

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/going ... c/904353/0

Going ballistic

There is an instructive parallel between the government’s blundering approach to the ISRO scientists and the way it managed the army chief’s age controversy — both highly delicate matters that called for tact and an awareness of the institutional reputation at stake. The government, instead, by playing tough, made a bad situation worse and provoked a regrettable public confrontation. The army chief has gone to the Supreme Court; now the former ISRO chief suggests he could go to court, too. You couldn’t get a better tableau to showcase the government’s ineptitude.


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