Indian Army: News & Discussion

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shiv
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2012 10:24

SinghSardar wrote:Why is so difficult for some people to call a spade a spade? The above mentioned "Martial Races" are what they are today largely due to the region of India where they come from.


This is why they easily defeated the Sri Lankan Tamils who could not withstand their martial ferocity during the IPKFs tenure. We really must call a martial race a martial race based on it history and record. This spade-shade business confuses me. Spade is for digging - like digging ones grave. Must be some American expression.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2012 10:41

More spade calling from the Pakistan defence Journal
http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/nov/pak-army.htm


The reader may note that during the period 1885�1911 when the ethnic composition of the British Indian Army changed from a Hindustani majority/Hindu/Non Muslim dominated army to a Punjabi Majority/Punjabi Muslim heavy army in 1911; no major war took place; that could prove that Punjabi troops or Punjabi Muslim troops were better than Hindu troops or the Hindustani troops, and the concept that the British changed the ethnic composition based on proven fighting ability in actual combat; has no connection with any reality of military history. Thus the �Martial Races Theory� was based more on political considerations than on any tangible or concrete military effectiveness or relative combat effectiveness in any war! In any case the pre 1947 Indian Army was never a Muslim majority army at any stage of its history. Many Britishers were crystal clear about the situational or historical relativity of the so called martial effectiveness even in the first half of the nineteenth century. Henry Lawrence a Civil Servant of the English East India Company thus summed up the whole business about martial effectiveness once he said �Courage goes much by opinion; and many a man behaves as a hero or a coward, according as he considers he is expected to behave. Once two Roman Legions held Britain; now as many Britons might hold Italy". On the other hand , the reasons why the British preferred the Punjabis in the army in preference to other races were rationalised by many Britishers by stating that the British preferred the Indian Army to be composed of �Martial Races�46.

The "Martial Races Theory" in reality was an Imperial gimmick to boost the ego of the cannon fodder. Various British writers like Philip Mason frankly admitted that the real reason for selective recruitment was political reliability in crisis situations which the Punjabis had exhibited during the 1857-58 Bengal Army rebellion.47 Another British officer thought that "Martial Races Theory" had a more sentimental and administrative basis rather than anything to do with real martial superiority. C.C Trench thus wrote, �Reasons for preferring northerners were largely racial. To Kiplings contemporaries, the taller and fairer a native, the better man he was likely to be�There was a general preference for the wild over the half educated native as being less addicted to unwholesome political thinking�Brahmins had been prominent in the mutiny, and their diet and prejudices made difficulties on active service48. The �Special Commission appointed by the Viceroy� to enquire into the organisation of Indian Army was more blunt in outlining the political reliability factor once it stated that "lower stratum of the Mohammadan urban population, the dispossessed landholders (many of them, off course, Muslims), the predatory classes, and perhaps the cadets of the old Muhammadan families (as)� the only people who really dislike British rule� 49 . The reason why the Punjabis whether Sikh Hindu or Muslim were more loyal to the British at least till 1919 lay in complex socio-political background of the province and the complex relationship between the Sikhs Hindus and Muslims of the province. Its discussion is beyond the scope of this work.

The fact remains that in the first world war the Punjabi case for priority race for recruitment to the army was once again reinforced when the Punjabi soldiers, Sikh Muslim and Hindu loyally served the British in France Mesopotamia Egypt Palestine and Gallipoli. Philip Mason thus wrote that the "Punjabi Muslims were steady as a rock� while �a faint question mark hung over the Pathans� 50. Such was the difference in reliability within the units that when two Pathan squadrons of 15 Lancers passively refused to fight against the Turks in Mesopotamia, the Punjabi Squadrons remained staunch and the Pathan squadrons were disbanded and replaced by Hindustani Hindu Jat Squadrons from 14th Murray Jat Lancers! The Hindustani/Ranghar Muslims were also further discredited once the 5th Light Infantry a pure Hindustani/Ranghar Muslim unit composed of Delhi region Hindustani Pathans, and Ranghar Muslims rebelled and seized Singapore for about a day in 1915.51 It was more a question of political reliability than being more martial that led to further Punjabisation of the army after the first world war. Thus in 1929 as per the �Report of the Statutory Commission on Indian Constitutional Advancement�, military ability was not evenly distributed in the entire population and, the capacity to fight was confined to the martial races! The commission ignored the fact that recruitment was done to fill ethnic quotas as decided by the Indian government and was not open to all classes! As per this commission�s report some 86,000 or some 54.36% Indian Army combatants out of a total of 158,200 were from Punjab province. These did include some Ranghar Muslims who were administratively Punjabi although Hindustani ethnically/culturally, but there is no doubt that the vast bulk of these men were ethnically Punjabi. The important part of the whole business was the fact that once 19,000 Nepali Gurkhas, who were in reality foreigners, included in the above mentioned total of 158,200 men are excluded the Punjabi share in Indian Army rose to 61.8%. The Pathans thanks to their political record in the First World War had been reduced to just 5,600 men 52 or just 4.02% out of which at least a thousand were non Pathans!

Talk about colonized minds.
Last edited by shiv on 21 Feb 2012 10:46, edited 2 times in total.

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The Martial Race baloney - time to bury it deep

Postby Jaybhatt » 21 Feb 2012 10:45

I am glad I challenged Rajrang and initiated a much-needed debate and introspection in BR on the insidious concept of "martial races" and similar garbage that is sometimes touted by a few BR members on various threads.

I am delighted that Sanku, Surya, Devesh, hnair, Ks_sachin, Kunalverma, ramana and Shiv, among others, came forward to strongly refute this malignant and pernicious doctrine.

Rajrang, to his great credit, graciously made amends for his comments. Thank you, friend.

However, three others, SBajwa, SinghSardar and Jhujar picked up the "baton", as it were, and continued to spout completely unacceptable ideas in the same vein. Ideas that will damage this country and its splendid armed forces - and endanger our national security. The Forum moderator Rahul M rightly stepped in and warned SinghSardar.

This is an appropriate time for the Form administrators to put a stop to this type of irresponsible writing (to put it mildly).
I am all in favour of frank and fee debate / dialogue and do not favour censorship. However, voodoo "philosophy" and ersatz
doctrines cannot be allowed on serious platforms. What was referred to in our younger days as the 2 plus 2 equal to 22 theorems. :)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Feb 2012 10:56

Shiv anther important quote from that article

History was distorted to show that the Muslims were ruling the timid Hindu when the British snatched power from the brave Muslims by treachery! This was sadly not the case! In reality the Muslims were saved from total defeat by the British advent in India! A false image was formed by official propaganda right from 1947 that the Muslims were more martial than the timid Hindus were! It was a poor modification of the "Martial Races Theory" of the British, which was a purely imperialist theory to "Divide and Rule" India! But once Pakistan was defeated in 1971, all blame was heaped on Yahya and liquor, disregarding the fact that Yahya was merely the tip of the iceberg, and the irrefutable fact that many great commanders in history were absolutely incorrigible and compulsive womanisers and drinkers!


Unfortunately, INC related Historians have been selling the same Bullshit in our history textbooks which dates from colonial times. I think this should be also put into favorite thread in GDF dhaga.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2012 10:58

Interesting where belief in the Martial Races theory took Pakistan. But for Pakis it is "vinash kaale vipareeta buddhi". I have been howling in the other forum about racist theories propagated by white Christian supremacists from Britain/Europe. Amazing how Indians, Muslims and non Muslims fell for them and still follow the lead set by the Europeans. Education is truly the key to a population.

http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/nov/pak-army.htm
Yahya cannot be blamed for the muck that had been accumulating for more than two decades. Yahya�s intention to raise more pure Bengali battalions was opposed by Major General Khadim Hussain Raja, the General Officer Commanding 14 Division in East Pakistan, since the General felt that instead of raising new purely Bengali battalions, Bengali troops should be mixed with existing infantry battalions comprising of Punjabi and Pathan troops.37 Such was the strength of conviction of General Khadim about not raising more pure Bengali battalions that once he came to know about Yahya�s orders to raise more East Pakistani regiments, he flew to the General Headquarters in Rawalpindi to remonstrate against the sagacity of raising more pure Bengali units. Khadim�s advice that Bengali troops could not be relied upon in crisis situations should have been an eye opener for all in the GHQ. No one at least at that time took his advice seriously. It appears that the generals were convinced that the Bengali was too meek to ever challenge the martial Punjabi or Pathan Muslim

The Bengalis were despised as non martial by all West Pakistanis. However much later an interesting controversy developed in which the Punjabis and Hindustanis blamed each other for doing so! The Hindustanis blaming Aziz Ahmad etc and the Punjabis blaming many Hindustani ICS old foxes of the 1950s! There is no doubt that this exercise in Bengali degrading was neither totally or exclusively Punjabi led but a a true for all West Pakistanis business!

The foreign reader may note that Bengalis were despised as a non martial race from the British times. Sir Syed Ahmad Khan a Hindustani Muslim and an eminent Muslim leader of the North Indian Muslims in late 19th century made open fun of Bengalis in his various speeches, notably the one delivered at Lucknow in 1887. I.H Qureshi another prominent Hindustani Muslim and a post 1947 cabinet minister declared in a roundabout manner that the Bengalis were an inferior race. Ayub made various remarks implying that the Bengalis were an inferior race in his memoirs written in 1967.38.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby munna » 21 Feb 2012 11:56

Indian Army has been an unfortunate victim of political and ideological machinations right from 1947. The British legacy structures were meant to deal with a professional leadership with loyalty to the Raj as its lodestone. Post independence a cultural change towards loyalty to the republic had to be initiated and on this matter the political class failed to develop a consensus apart from the issue of keeping the civilian control. The current and past crises are a result of our failure to make armed forces and Army in particular a statutory institution with its underpinnings coming from the constitution itself.
The ambiguity surrounding the armed forces in our strategic and political culture has created an image of being the "policemen of last resort" for the GOI rather than an institution that sits on cross-roads of diplomacy, security and economy, natural sword arm of the nation. Armed forces need to be elevated beyond politics to save them from such muddle headed meddling and controversies. Casteism, Religious biases, regional biases and other sectarian themes should not only be absent de-jure but also any hint of such should be actively combated even if there be a gap between perception and reality. Perception and reality should be congruent.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 21 Feb 2012 14:26

Brilliant post munna-ji.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Pranav » 21 Feb 2012 15:13

There is no need to take an excessively rigid stand on the martial traditions issue.

A society wherein battles are celebrated in ballads, and stories recounted at the dining table may well tend to produce more soldiers. Also, an environment of lawlessness may necessitate an ability to use weapons, e.g. the American west in the 19th century, or for that matter Punjab during the decline of the Mughals.

It is a cultural rather than a racial feature. Something like how families of doctors tend to produce more doctors.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 21 Feb 2012 15:26

If only Martial Races were suitable for Army , what martial race could merchant britishers, art loving french and colonial Americans could find to man their Army. Britishers relied on Gurkhas.. They had one of the earliest Units from Madras. Madras regiment . Madras Sappers who helped British conquer India. Arent they Martial too?

Sikh Regiment fought Anglo-Afgan wars and Britishers failed to ever conquer Afgans despite brave fight and ultimate sacrifice made by Sikhs. Does it make them less martial?

Modern warfare is less about Martialness of a race and more about leadership at several levels, strategic and tactical planning and intelligent execution of plans , well trained men and teamwork etc. Indian Army is an institution , existence of which refutes any such racial ideas.

Such racial theories should be cast into dustbin of history.
As regards Sikhs not becoming COAS, there is a system followed in Army, in which Senior Most among equally meritorious becomes general with few sad exceptions. Someone does not need to belong to so called martial race to become COAS. One has to prove himself to be worthy of it. The issue arises when manipulation and corruption tends to bend the rule, controversy is created where not justified just to support someone anointed to become COAS long before and deserving ones are sacrificed at the alter of his career. The system of Patronage exists in Aristocracy and has no place either in Democracy or in Meritocracy. A Martial Man does not equal to a Meritorious or courageous/brave man with leadership quality. If you see MMS your idea of a Martial man should vaporise instantaneously unless I understood you wrongly as to what you mean by Martial qualities.



ps:Anyone remembers Bangalore Torpedo or Mines.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Feb 2012 16:13

martial race theory was a reaction to post uprising re-organisation of imperial armies - where the old native armies could no longer be relied upon and the new native armies who had helped quell the rebellion were to be rewarded

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2012 16:36

Pranav wrote:
It is a cultural rather than a racial feature. Something like how families of doctors tend to produce more doctors.


Not true.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 21 Feb 2012 17:28

There is an out of print book by a famous Lt Gen on 'History of Indian Army' (1992-3) which has a section on British desire to seek 'universal soldiers' post 1857. If anyone has a copy, please refer to it.

I am glad I challenged Rajrang and initiated a much-needed debate

OTOH, for the benefit to India, I DO want certain peoples to believe in that bumkum. Oh well...

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 21 Feb 2012 20:23

Army launches anti terrorist operation in Sopore

I'll try to bring update on this asap.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajrang » 21 Feb 2012 20:59

chaanakya wrote:Modern warfare is less about Martialness of a race and more about leadership at several levels, strategic and tactical planning and intelligent execution of plans , well trained men and teamwork etc. Indian Army is an institution ,


good argument

chaanakya wrote:If you see MMS your idea of a Martial man should vaporise instantaneously unless I understood you wrongly as to what you mean by Martial qualities.


MMS has supervised the biggest re-armament of Indian forces facing China since the aftermath of the 1962 war. However, if you call this dhoti shivering, then, I have no comments.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajrang » 21 Feb 2012 21:07

Pranav wrote:There is no need to take an excessively rigid stand on the martial traditions issue.

A society wherein battles are celebrated in ballads, and stories recounted at the dining table may well tend to produce more soldiers. Also, an environment of lawlessness may necessitate an ability to use weapons, e.g. the American west in the 19th century, or for that matter Punjab during the decline of the Mughals.

It is a cultural rather than a racial feature. Something like how families of doctors tend to produce more doctors.


Any human being (man or woman) is capable of bravery. I agree that this is not an exclusive preserve of martial groups. Further India has had a tendency to rely on subsets of its population for its defense long before the British - Kshatriyas for example. I have seen good points raised by both sides of the argument. So, I have no more comments to add. Anyway, I think this topic is out of bounds for discussion in BR forums without becoming unpleasant.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 21 Feb 2012 21:11

rajrang wrote:MMS has supervised the biggest re-armament of Indian forces facing China since the aftermath of the 1962 war. However, if you call this dhoti shivering, then, I have no comments.


My 2 paise, it is not by choice but just as a consequence of the increasing size of our economy. As a % of GDP, our defence spending is still very modest and how much of that money is returned to govt due to non-utilization and ends up helping the govt on fiscal deficit is another matter. The slow rate of acquisition is again another point to consider.
Last edited by Yogi_G on 21 Feb 2012 21:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 21 Feb 2012 21:11

rajrang wrote:
MMS has supervised the biggest re-armament of Indian forces facing China since the aftermath of the 1962 war. However, if you call this dhoti shivering, then, I have no comments.
Can you please quantify the statement in terms of budget numbers asked for by the military and provided for by MMS in context of percentages of GDP, over the past 7-8 years? The numbers will prove, if the testimony stands scrutiny. Also, just to be fair, you can compare and contrast with similar numbers in China over the same period to factor in threat and capability levels. To make it more fair, please make a list of procedural reforms of the the MMS govt in decision making of MoD that has resulting in a faster process for acquisitions etc.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajrang » 21 Feb 2012 21:36

ShauryaT wrote:
rajrang wrote:
MMS has supervised the biggest re-armament of Indian forces facing China since the aftermath of the 1962 war. However, if you call this dhoti shivering, then, I have no comments.
Can you please quantify the statement in terms of budget numbers asked for by the military and provided for by MMS in context of percentages of GDP, over the past 7-8 years? The numbers will prove, if the testimony stands scrutiny. Also, just to be fair, you can compare and contrast with similar numbers in China over the same period to factor in threat and capability levels. To make it more fair, please make a list of procedural reforms of the the MMS govt in decision making of MoD that has resulting in a faster process for acquisitions etc.



In the aftermath of 1962, IA raised 10 mountain divisions. As you are aware of (under MMS) within a few years this figure should be around 15 divisions.

As a percent of GDP most nation's defense expenditures have been going down.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 21 Feb 2012 21:52

Oh great, another Chankian member. :roll:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 21 Feb 2012 22:45

MMS can sanction 40 divisions - for all I care

cannon fodder without the 155 mm arty in numbers towed,truck and SP

Let him get that in the next 2 yrs and i will cut him slack

most nations do not have China and Pukeland ont heir borders Plus BD

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 21 Feb 2012 22:57

Good to see that martial race theory as propagated by British convincingly debunked by wise BRFites.

But there is another thing which is known as a warrior mindset.And as per my opinion every Indian should try to cultivate this mindset.It is definitely not a genetic attribute as the british implied(with malice ofcourse).This mindset consists of attributes like courage,resourcefulness,critical thinking skills,mental and physical toughness,self discipline,integrity and above all a love for freedom.

When you look at these qualities , it is clear that you do not have to belong to a certain community or race to achieve them.Any human being with a functioning mind and body could do that.So why not move towards this goal(achieving a warrior mindset) as Indians and not as some caste or community.Trust me, in less than one generation the whole nation can be militarized and develop a warrior culture provided we set our sights on it(as Tamils in Sri Lanka showed us in 1980's and 1990's.Even the Sikhs themselves did the same in 17th century).And indeed we should do it.

It is true that in past warrior culture was more developed in some communities than others.The most important reason that I could think of is the existence of caste hierarchy where certain castes were supposed to do all the fighting and protect others.The other reason I could think of is that certain communities were settled on common invasion routes and hence were more inclined to see and take part in constant conflict.There were other reasons as well.

But today we exist as one country continuously moving beyond the paradigms of caste and race.Hence this old template is neither needed nor it is going to work in future.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 21 Feb 2012 23:12

rajrang wrote:
chaanakya wrote:If you see MMS your idea of a Martial man should vaporize instantaneously unless I understood you wrongly as to what you mean by Martial qualities.


MMS has supervised the biggest re-armament of Indian forces facing China since the aftermath of the 1962 war. However, if you call this dhoti shivering, then, I have no comments.


Did I say Dhoti Shivering, though Aman Ka Tamasha is nothing but ..

However, Martial Race is stereotyping of existence of martial qualities in few races, that is how I read the debate going on here. But if you mean supervision of biggest re-armament exercise as Martial qualities than Gen K Sundarji should be called Martial-est of them all, shan t he? He planned most of the modernisation of Indian Army.


Well what do we think of FM Kariappa or FM Sam Manecksaw, are they dhoti shivering types. They dont belong to martial Races and have give India 1948 and 1971.

Oh I forgot about Major Somnath Sharma, Is he Martial enough.

You see , propagating Martial race theory would land you in trouble.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Feb 2012 23:34

air marshall subroto mukherjee? i guess he was too dhoti shivering rosso-golla eating to qualify?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajrang » 21 Feb 2012 23:35

Surya wrote:MMS can sanction 40 divisions - for all I care

cannon fodder without the 155 mm arty in numbers towed,truck and SP

Let him get that in the next 2 yrs and i will cut him slack

most nations do not have China and Pukeland ont heir borders Plus BD



Agree 100%

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajrang » 21 Feb 2012 23:36

darshhan wrote:Good to see that martial race theory as propagated by British convincingly debunked by wise BRFites.

But there is another thing which is known as a warrior mindset.And as per my opinion every Indian should try to cultivate this mindset.It is definitely not a genetic attribute as the british implied(with malice ofcourse).This mindset consists of attributes like courage,resourcefulness,critical thinking skills,mental and physical toughness,self discipline,integrity and above all a love for freedom.

When you look at these qualities , it is clear that you do not have to belong to a certain community or race to achieve them.Any human being with a functioning mind and body could do that.So why not move towards this goal(achieving a warrior mindset) as Indians and not as some caste or community.Trust me, in less than one generation the whole nation can be militarized and develop a warrior culture provided we set our sights on it(as Tamils in Sri Lanka showed us in 1980's and 1990's.Even the Sikhs themselves did the same in 17th century).And indeed we should do it.

It is true that in past warrior culture was more developed in some communities than others.The most important reason that I could think of is the existence of caste hierarchy where certain castes were supposed to do all the fighting and protect others.The other reason I could think of is that certain communities were settled on common invasion routes and hence were more inclined to see and take part in constant conflict.There were other reasons as well.

But today we exist as one country continuously moving beyond the paradigms of caste and race.Hence this old template is neither needed nor it is going to work in future.


Another good argument! Thank you

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 21 Feb 2012 23:37

chaanakya wrote:
Well what do we think of FM Kariappa or FM Sam Manecksaw, are they dhoti shivering types. They dont belong to martial Races and have give India 1948 and 1971.



Chaanakya ji, a small nitpick.FM Cariappa was a Kodava which was a warrior class historically.And even the British supposedly qualified them as martial race.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajrang » 21 Feb 2012 23:38

chaanakya wrote:
rajrang wrote:
[quote="chaanakya"
If you see MMS your idea of a Martial man should vaporize instantaneously unless I understood you wrongly as to what you mean by Martial qualities.
/quote]

MMS has supervised the biggest re-armament of Indian forces facing China since the aftermath of the 1962 war. However, if you call this dhoti shivering, then, I have no comments.[/quote]

Did I say Dhoti Shivering, though Aman Ka Tamasha is nothing but ..

However, Martial Race is stereotyping of existence of martial qualities in few races, that is how I read the debate going on here. But if you mean supervision of biggest re-armament exercise as Martial qualities than Gen K Sundarji should be called Martial-est of them all, shan t he? He planned most of the modernisation of Indian Army.


Well what do we think of FM Kariappa or FM Sam Manecksaw, are they dhoti shivering types. They dont belong to martial Races and have give India 1948 and 1971.

Oh I forgot about Major Somnath Sharma, Is he Martial enough.

You see , propagating Martial race theory would land you in trouble.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]


Agree in principle - good points - thanks

But then Gen Sundarji did not win a war for India. It is easy to show martial qualities with intellectual ideas sitting in an office. Would he have put himself in the shoes of Bana Singh and fought on top of Siachen glacier? We do not know for sure.

However Maneckshaw won a war for India and your point is correct.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 21 Feb 2012 23:53

The briturds did a real number on us didn't they? Even after 65 years the crap that they filled our heads with still lives on..

The martial race theory has been the subject of so many jokes on the pakis on BRF. Never thought I'd se it being actualy debated.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Feb 2012 00:02

even in the colonial times, it was the SDRE bengal and madras armies that defeated the martial races before the martial races were recruited to defeat the SDRE revolters...

nachiket is spot on... needless debate about nonsense

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 22 Feb 2012 00:11

But then Gen Sundarji did not win a war for India. It is easy to show martial qualities with intellectual ideas sitting in an office. Would he have put himself in the shoes of Bana Singh and fought on top of Siachen glacier? We do not know for sure.


Sir 
Would it be too much to ask to check the wiki page (imperfect as they are) for Gen K Sunderji.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 22 Feb 2012 00:16

nachiket wrote:The briturds did a real number on us didn't they? Even after 65 years the crap that they filled our heads with still lives on..

The martial race theory has been the subject of so many jokes on the pakis on BRF. Never thought I'd se it being actualy debated.


Nachiket ji , You could not have been more right.And unfortunately it is still true.Just visit wikipedia pages of some of these martial castes and their forums.They take so much pride in parroting the certifications given by British that it is almost comical and definitely slavish.

Another thing to be noted.Even between the castes occupying the same terrain the British used this Martial race theory to divide people.For eg. in and around current day NCR(Delhi) , Gujjars took the lead role in opposing British during the First war of Independence during 1857 while Jats were mostly neutral.Gujjars were classified as a criminal tribe(this actually happened) while Jats were deemed to be martial.The british have since left but the divide still remains.

Yayavar
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 22 Feb 2012 00:33

Exactly. This old policy has generated a sense of entitlement that makes one state - oh! there were 50% of 'x' in IA and now they are less. I tried to gently state that the opportunity has opened for all and so will result in equitable percentages through the example that there were 100% men, but now there are women joining so % of men is less. That is not a conspiracy against men but that the opportunity is now open to women too. Recruitment in Independent India's army is open to all across all regions and other divisions. Martial race is all of independent India :) :http://www.kashmir-information.com/Heroes/

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Multatuli » 22 Feb 2012 02:04

rohitvats wrote (page 85):

General K Sundarji, PVSM, ADC

Army Headquarters, New Delhi-110 001

1 Feb 86

Dear Brother Officer,

........

13. Let us all resolve that we will :-

(a) Shed the dead weight of mediocrity and strive for excellence, each one in his own sphere.

(b) Hold fast to all that is best in our traditions and the finest in values, while doing away with the useless and meaningless.

(c) Avoid ostentation.

(d) Not sell our souls for a good ACR and promotion.

(e) Constantly enhance and update our professional competence.

(f) Sensibly decentralise authority and responsibility.

(g) Permit maximum initiative to our subordinates, and accept a fair quota of honest mistakes as necessary payment for their professional growth and maturity.

(h) Encourage dissent and new ideas at the policy formulation and discussion stage and insist on implicit obedience in the right spirit, post-decision, at the execution stage.

(j) Cultivate a justifiable pride in ourselves, our units, formations, the Army and the Country.

(k) And finally, live up to the motto:

"The safety, honour and welfare of your Country come first, always and everytime. The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next. Your own ease, comfort and safety come last always and everytime".

14. Before I close, a word to our professional cynics! I can almost hear some say, "Well, we have known all this for quite a while but what’s been done? I’ll believe that something is going to be done when I see something happening on the ground"! As a people, thus far, we have generally been waiting for initiatives from on top; for neatly gift-wrapped solutions from ‘authority’; we have waited for the ‘Sarkar’ or ‘Bhup Singh’ or whoever, to do it. I put it to you, that YOU have to do something about it too. We have everything -- the brains, the bravery, the technology, the skills, the ability -- all we have to do is to get YOU moving and ‘Get our Act together’ and there is no stopping us!

God Speed!

Yours sincerely,

General K Sundarji



All those points, a to k, are perfectly in line with Vedic teachings.
Although some may think that it's only because of "our British heritage" that we Indians are aware of such an ethos and have such ambitions.

The point Gen. Sundarji makes about US (every one of us) being responsible for the state of affairs is equally applicable to civilians/civilian life. It doesn't matter what your position, status, etc. is, we all have the power to change things.

And yes, Gen. Sundarji was a giant.

Rony
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rony » 22 Feb 2012 03:19

Lalmohan wrote:even in the colonial times, it was the SDRE bengal and madras armies that defeated the martial races before the martial races were recruited to defeat the SDRE revolters...


Spot on Lalmohan ! There goes all the martial wartial bs !

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 22 Feb 2012 05:46

For those who were claiming conspiracy at Gen Bikram Singh's appointment. PMO asked Raw to investigate the in-law. Raw didnt find anything. AKA asked IB to conduct an investigation as well now.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Feb 2012 05:50

shyamd wrote:For those who were claiming conspiracy at Gen Bikram Singh's appointment. PMO asked Raw to investigate the in-law. Raw didnt find anything. AKA asked IB to conduct an investigation as well now.
And this information is not public!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 22 Feb 2012 06:12

But if you mean supervision of biggest re-armament exercise as Martial qualities than Gen K Sundarji should be called Martial-est of them all, shan t he? He planned most of the modernisation of Indian Army.


Modernization of the armed forces and being a martial are totally two separate things. Gen K. Sundarji was a great general who understood that modernizing the armed forces is the basic key to survival. Just like Ranjit singh (who got French Tactics and guns against British) and Babar who used modern artillery to win India and Ghori who used fast moving cavalry against slow moving elephants. They were great generals (some were defenders others were foreigners trying to loot India).

Now Raja Dahir (Brahmin too) was a good king of Sindh but he neither kept his armed forces to be modern nor he actively led the armed forces into battle (always defensive)


Well what do we think of FM Kariappa or FM Sam Manecksaw, are they dhoti shivering types. They dont belong to martial Races and have give India 1948 and 1971.


Again!! see the general comment above!!! Generals are only as good as its soldiers, their shrewness and their intellect!!

Oh I forgot about Major Somnath Sharma, Is he Martial enough.


Off course He is the Martialist of them all!! He fulfilled his Karma and his Dharma protecting his land!! That is what decide who is Martial and who not!!

You see , propagating Martial race theory would land you in trouble.


You are reading too much into British theory of Martial races. In my opinion only people who got benifit from this theory were Pakjabis (good for nothing people who lost all the wars they fought and were declared MARTIAL by British probably to setup Pakistan later!! just like USA is playing India against China and Pakistan at this very moment)

Once again!! Declaring people "MARTIAL" is a mindset!! A prize! A Medal!! A proud epithet!! and nothing else!!

SDRE or TFTA in the modern world anybody who is fit enough (mentally and physically) to fight is a good soldier! and declaring his/her people as "MARTIAL" will only help!! All you need is mental ability to

1. Be a Leader to have a vision for strategic goals (at all levels starting from Havaldar to COAS)
2. Be a soldier to follow the orders for tactical strikes for the above strategic goals. (All Soldiers)
3. Have a physical ability to do the above. (All soldiers)

Bottom line for soldiers is the Indic concept of KARMA and DHARAM!!!!!

SBajwa
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 22 Feb 2012 06:18

For me Martial is my grandfather telling me when I was 15 years old that there are only TWO jobs worth a Man!

1. Be a Soldier.
2. Be a Farmer.

everything else is garbage!!

Ankit Desai
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Ankit Desai » 22 Feb 2012 06:21

ShauryaT wrote:
shyamd wrote:......
And this information is not public!


Well it is. IB report to clear decks for chief-in-waiting

Defence Ministry has sought a report from the Intelligence Bureau on Lt General Bikram Singh’s daughter-in-law, who has Pakistani origins, but is now a US citizen.


According to them, Prime Minister’s office had also recently sought a report from RAW on Singh’s daughter-in- law’s Pakistani origin issue. The RAW had found nothing objectionable, sources said.

Apart from this issue, other controversies like a fake encounter in Srinagar and allegations against UN Peace Keeping Force in Congo under him have also surfaced against Bikram Singh. Singh’s camp feels this is an exercise by ‘ frustrated’ elements , who want to scuttle his appointment.


-Ankit

Surya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 22 Feb 2012 06:57

err when RAW itself is politicised - what faith does one have in a politcally motivated check??


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