Indian Army: News & Discussion

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ShauryaT
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Feb 2012 06:58

Ankit, Thanks for the link. The RAW one probably cannot be public.

SBajwa
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 22 Feb 2012 07:18

by Surya
err when RAW itself is politicised - what faith does one have in a politcally motivated check??


Why is RAW politicised? please explain!!!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 22 Feb 2012 07:20

SBajwa wrote:For me Martial is my grandfather telling me when I was 15 years old that there are only TWO jobs worth a Man!

1. Be a Soldier.
2. Be a Farmer.

everything else is garbage!!


What did you choose :)

Prem
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Prem » 22 Feb 2012 07:35

Uttam Kheti, Madh Byopar
Nakhid kare Chakri
Sukhi rahe Sansar.

This was for old times when High tech/Industrialized societies did not exist.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 22 Feb 2012 07:42

Why is RAW politicised? please explain!!!



Read the way the chiefs have been appointed

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 22 Feb 2012 07:43

Since Sundarji was onlee a General

what happens when a so called martial race General is a flop??

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kunalverma » 22 Feb 2012 14:35

I have just received the following mail from Lt General VK Tubby Nayar (2 Para), former Western Army Commander and also the Governor of Nagaland and Manipur:

Dear kunal,
I will be grateful if u can release the attached open letter to the Hon Prime Minister to the press and other media. These are my honest feelings and I do not wish to say any thing more to any one. Thanks
for the trouble.
Best Wishes.
Tubby Nayar.

Respected Prime Minister,
Most people, including myself, believe that old soldiers should just fade away. Ever since retiring from the Indian Army as the Western Army Commander and subsequently having served as the Governor of Manipur and Nagaland, I firmly held that we have had our innings and matters were best left to those who followed us. However, after giving it considerable thought, I take the liberty in all due respect of writing this 'open letter' to my Prime Minister for like hundreds and thousands of my brother officers - both retired and serving - I am deeply concerned about what today is talked about as the 'Age Controversy'!
In my book, leadership, be it in matters military or otherwise, is based on three simple principles - righteousness, decisiveness and fairness! All three of these seem to have been vitiated in this particular case. There is no doubt that all records, both in the MS and AGs branch, until 2006 clearly reflected 1951 as the Chiefs date of birth. Based on an erroneous entry in the Army List, after the officer had already been cleared for the rank of Lieutenant General, first the MS branch records and then the AGs records were tampered with. To my mind and understanding, this is the simple crux of the issue and I fail to understand what sort of message has been given to the rank and file of the Indian Army by your Government’s inability to resolve this issue.
To hide behind the legal system – the retraction of the Government’s rejection of the Statutory Complaint frankly left the Chief’s lawyers with no choice but to withdraw their petition – and for the media and your Government to project this as a defeat for General VK Singh is indulging in theatrical politics. Like many of my brother officers, after the media blitz that reported on the Supreme Court’s deliberations, I too felt that the Chief should immediately resign in protest. However, once the Order of the Honourable Court came out five days later – without any TV channel or newspaper reporting it – the shoe seems to be on the other foot. By not resigning and continuing with his job despite what was widely projected as a ‘public humiliation’, VK Singh has shown a degree of personal courage that makes me proud of the man and by extension, the Indian Army. Had he resigned, it would have been a petulant act. We must not forget that there is a lot more to the office of the COAS than just the age issue.
Today, Mr Prime Minister, many would like to burry this issue and may accuse me of flogging a dead horse. However, it is my duty as an elder who has served my country to the best of my ability, to point out to you that once the smoke settles, you will be asked why you let this happen. In a system that is reeling from endless corruption charges, where many have learnt to bend with the wind, one man stood up for what he considered wrong. The ‘system’ may have closed in around him and in the short term, defeated him by denying him justice. But you, Mr Prime Minister, are today being seen as the person who is not only shielding the perpetuators of this original crime, but also protecting the beneficiary of this blatant manipulation.
I have had the honour of interacting with you when you were the Finance Minister of our country. I have always found you to be a man who could quickly grasp the larger picture and resolutely follow your convictions. Since Independence, the civil-military equation in this country has evolved in its own unique way, perhaps creating certain imbalances which need to be looked at for like the ‘age issue’, these too cannot be wished away. In a fractured and fragmented country that came together in 1947 as the Union of India, I can say with great pride that the Indian Army managed to retain its secular and non-communal outlook. This has to be protected at all costs! In your watch, if all the lions were to get up and go, the wind will say, I told you so!
Lt General VK Nayar, PVSM,SM(retd)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kunalverma » 22 Feb 2012 15:21

First PC Katoch (1 Para) and now Tubby Nair (2 Para)....
Sure proves one thing, the Maroon Berets are certainly a Martial Race.
Last edited by kunalverma on 22 Feb 2012 23:04, edited 1 time in total.

Austin
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Feb 2012 15:57

shyamd wrote:For those who were claiming conspiracy at Gen Bikram Singh's appointment. PMO asked Raw to investigate the in-law. Raw didnt find anything. AKA asked IB to conduct an investigation as well now.


So what do they expect to find ? Even the post Gen BS is holding is a critical position and they did not find any thing serious in the Pakistani connection to hold his current post .....such vetting by IB/RAW are just routine affair for top post.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SinghSardar » 22 Feb 2012 18:05

shiv wrote:
SinghSardar wrote:Why is so difficult for some people to call a spade a spade? The above mentioned "Martial Races" are what they are today largely due to the region of India where they come from.


This is why they easily defeated the Sri Lankan Tamils who could not withstand their martial ferocity during the IPKFs tenure. We really must call a martial race a martial race based on it history and record. This spade-shade business confuses me. Spade is for digging - like digging ones grave. Must be some American expression.


The IPKF was under strict orders to not harm civilians - which most Tamils in Sri Lanka were dressed up as. This limitation put on the IPKF was the reason why it sustained losses. A soldier cannot fight with one hand tied behind his back, so to speak. BTW - as any person with knowledge of English knows, calling a spade a spade means calling a fact a fact. Go Google it. I sincerely hope that this clears your confusion. We all learn something new everyday.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 22 Feb 2012 18:08

The IPKF was under strict orders to not harm civilians - which most Tamils in Sri Lanka were dressed up as. This limitation put on the IPKF was the reason why it sustained losses. A soldier cannot fight with one hand tied behind his back, so to speak. BTW - as any person with knowledge of English knows, calling a spade a spade means calling a fact a fact. Go Google it. I sincerely hope that this clears your confusion. We all learn something new everyday.



But then that applies to martial andnon martial

Shouldn't the martial races be able to fight with one hand tied behind and blindfolded!!!!

years of martial race evolution should allow for that!!!

else what difference for normal rice eating SDREs???

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 22 Feb 2012 18:50

that reminds me

kunal

need to contact you.

let me know

regards

surya

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SinghSardar » 22 Feb 2012 18:54

ks_sachin wrote:Oh dear...oh dear...


SinghSardar

SO you are saying we should disband the Marathas, Madras, Mahar, 16th Cavalry, Meg & Centre, BEG, Bengal Eng Group etc etc as they have the non-martial races.

Well done well done...

PS - disect your post and try and gain an understanding of how contingents are chosen for RD Parades, field postings etc etc. There are a number of parameters to come up with who ends up where but in the where clause there is no field for region = '.....' (sql speak)...

BTW - was speaking to a former DGMT from the Gurkhas and asked him rather innocently which were the best troops he had served with----the answer was 'Madras' - so there you have it...



Sachin, I am not suggesting disbanding any regiment or group at all - read my post again - carefully.
As for your comment about Madras Regt being the best troops goes, without any disrespect to anyone and keeping political correctness in mind, I would suggest that you take a look at the Battle honours and medals awarded to the various IA regiments - "martial" or otherwise.
BTW, BEG and Bengal Engineer Group is the same thing, located in Kirkee in Maharashtra. I spent a few years of my childhood there as my father was posted in Kirkee.
Just to clariify further, BEG, MEG and all armoured regiments (pre-independence such as 7th Cavalry, Skinnner's Horse, Central India Horse etc and many post independence newly raised ones) are "mixed race". So is the Artillery, ASC, Signals etc.

This "martial race" discussion seems to have really touched off a raw nerve among a large number of BR Fites. Do I sense a form of "resentment" against North Indians here as it seems to me that a large majority of people on this forum are South Indian? Correct me if I am wrong. I hope I am. Such sentiments, if true, do not bode well for India's secularism. India is a collection of many states, each with it's unique history, culture and traditions, which must be recognized and respected by all Indians. We all have our strengths, but not always in the same areas. India is a unique and only such country in the world. Even Belgium, a very small country in Europe, with EU headquarters in Brussels, wants to split along ethnic lines.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SinghSardar » 22 Feb 2012 18:59

pandyan wrote:
SinghSardar wrote:The IPKF was under strict orders to not harm civilians - which most Tamils in Sri Lanka were dressed up as. This limitation put on the IPKF was the reason why it sustained losses. A soldier cannot fight with one hand tied behind his back, so to speak. BTW - as any person with knowledge of English knows, calling a spade a spade means calling a fact a fact. Go Google it. I sincerely hope that this clears your confusion. We all learn something new everyday.


Tamils?? Did IPKF go there to fight tamils? They went there to protect the people and enforce peace between SL and LTTE ..spade a spade.

If you want a free hand to do whatever you want, you dont need trained soldiers. National Bird of the pure flying at 40Kfeet with sufficient droppings would do.


The IPKF was sent to Sri Lanka to enforce peace between SL and the LTTE, but ended up fighting against the LTTE! It was a politically disastrous adventure for India. Go read your history.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SinghSardar » 22 Feb 2012 19:08

Surya wrote:
The IPKF was under strict orders to not harm civilians - which most Tamils in Sri Lanka were dressed up as. This limitation put on the IPKF was the reason why it sustained losses. A soldier cannot fight with one hand tied behind his back, so to speak. BTW - as any person with knowledge of English knows, calling a spade a spade means calling a fact a fact. Go Google it. I sincerely hope that this clears your confusion. We all learn something new everyday.



But then that applies to martial andnon martial

Shouldn't the martial races be able to fight with one hand tied behind and blindfolded!!!!

years of martial race evolution should allow for that!!!

else what difference for normal rice eating SDREs???


WOW! Your emotions are really getting the better of you now!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SinghSardar » 22 Feb 2012 19:20

pandyan wrote:spade-o-spade - then what the fck was the comment about IPKF was sent to fight the tamils. to fight tamils, all you need is to go to Tamil Nadu (a state in Southern India). You dont know the difference between SL army, ltte and civilians? Spend some time educating yourself before sending out byproducts of beans.

Thanks for your "valuable" posts so far...you have completely messed up this forum and the core issue that was under debate General VK Singhs DOB issue.


Speak with respect and be civil - OK!
I know where Tamil Nadu is and that Tamils live there. I also know that Tamils in Northern SL wanted their own autonomous region and were suppressed by the SL (Sinhalese) govt. This gave birth to the LTTE (all Tamils) which took up an armed struggle to achieve what they had not been able to by peaceful means. If someone disagrees with you, then they mess up this forum? Other forum members can read our posts and decide who, if anyone, "messed up" this forum.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Feb 2012 19:25

SinghSardar wrote:
pandyan wrote:spade-o-spade - then what the fck was the comment about IPKF was sent to fight the tamils. to fight tamils, all you need is to go to Tamil Nadu (a state in Southern India). You dont know the difference between SL army, ltte and civilians? Spend some time educating yourself before sending out byproducts of beans.

Thanks for your "valuable" posts so far...you have completely messed up this forum and the core issue that was under debate General VK Singhs DOB issue.


Speak with respect and be civil - OK!
I know where Tamil Nadu is and that Tamils live there. I also know that Tamils in Northern SL wanted their own autonomous region and were suppressed by the SL (Sinhalese) govt. This gave birth to the LTTE (all Tamils) which took up an armed struggle to achieve what they had not been able to by peaceful means. If someone disagrees with you, then they mess up this forum? Other forum members can read our posts and decide who, if anyone, "messed up" this forum.


SinghSardar, what Pandyian is alluding too is your assumption all Tamils support LTTE, even within SL tamils, LTTE represented a minority and never the Kandy Tamils or the Colombo Tamils.

The Sinhalese Right wing did a lot of wrong and 1983 riots 3000 tamils were killed in rioting trigerring off the Ealam war.

Indian Tamils like 99% of Indian society are very sad 1650 soldiers died in SL and that Rajiv Ghandi for Political reasons spared the life of Prabhakaran who was with great difficulty captured twice by Indian soldiers.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 22 Feb 2012 19:28

Self - Deleted : This discussion is pointless.
Last edited by ParGha on 23 Feb 2012 01:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 22 Feb 2012 19:34

What did you choose


Back in 1980s I tried and failed and opted out to be an engineer. Which is just a Chakri i.e. "working for somebody". I am a garbage is what my grandfather will say as I am neither soldier nor farmer.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 22 Feb 2012 19:43

WOW! Your emotions are really getting the better of you now!



Its actually sarcasm.

but probably got weeded out in the martial races!!! :mrgreen:


Many South Indian posters here do seem to be rallying around such a flag too, but that is equally pathetic as well.


Not me - i am bombayite only and my track record on IPKF is known -
Last edited by Surya on 22 Feb 2012 19:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 22 Feb 2012 19:51

Without delving in to the subject, certain facts only...

BEG & Centre Kirkee = Bombay Engineer Group & Centre Kirkee, Mah
Typically troops are Sikhs and others from Raj, Gujarat, Maharashtra, MP, N Karnataka

is not the same as

BEG & Centre Roorkee = Bengal Engineer Group & Centre Roorkee, Uttarakhand
Typically troops are Sikhs and others from Haryana, NCR, Garhwal, Kumaon, Raj, HP, MP, UP, Bihar, WB, Assam & other NE states.

The hinterlands are not watertight compartments and there are overlaps.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Pranav » 22 Feb 2012 19:58

ParGha wrote:Let me tell you a brutal fact of life: This is 21st Century and an enemy A-100 battery can wipe out an infantry battalion just as quickly (approx 2 minutes from a 70km range), whether it was made up exclusively of the so-called "martial races" or "unmartial races". A cluster-charge will blow your brains out just as well, whether you are a "SinghSardar" or a "ChooahGhulam". Stop wanking off at the "achievements" of history -- not one of them will ever rise from their graves (or pyres) to save you.


Why the takleef at a perfectly innocuous statement that some groups have military traditions.

Sure technology changes ... but it is some of those "achievements of history" that have saved the civilization in the past. And even today you need folks willing to go into harm's way.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 22 Feb 2012 20:24

Dear SinghSardar ji

You are getting into more hot water here and I am attributing this to inexperience.

In the end if you need to corrected with warnings then you will not last long here, and will come out 'You guys are biased against me' experience, but please keep some of your beans in the bag.

Again I am not saying out political correctness. You have some way to go. So keep thinking, but make a bundle of this martial race theory and thow it across to the neighbour in the west.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 22 Feb 2012 20:34

SinghSardar wrote:
shiv wrote:
This is why they easily defeated the Sri Lankan Tamils who could not withstand their martial ferocity during the IPKFs tenure. We really must call a martial race a martial race based on it history and record. This spade-shade busingess confuses me. Spade is for digging - like digging ones grave. Must be some American expression.


The IPKF was under strict orders to not harm civilians - which most Tamils in Sri Lanka were dressed up as. This limitation put on the IPKF was the reason why it sustained losses. A soldier cannot fight with one hand tied behind his back, so to speak. BTW - as any person with knowledge of English knows, calling a spade a spade means calling a fact a fact. Go Google it. I sincerely hope that this clears your confusion. We all learn something new everyday.


Have you actually asked some soldiers in firefights as to what they faced when their hands were not tied. Ability to fight has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. Looks like you have zero idea of Indian history. Recall that the martial races were the first to be overrun by the Mussalman. The South held out for the longest. Now which martial races do you find in Tamil Nadu and Andhra? You are basically bullshitting SinghSardar and I am calling you out on it.

Shut your racist gob right now.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 22 Feb 2012 20:40

SinghSardar wrote:This "martial race" discussion seems to have really touched off a raw nerve among a large number of BR Fites. Do I sense a form of "resentment" against North Indians here as it seems to me that a large majority of people on this forum are South Indian? Correct me if I am wrong. I hope I am. Such sentiments, if true, do not bode well for India's secularism. India is a collection of many states, each with it's unique history, culture and traditions, which must be recognized and respected by all Indians. We all have our strengths, but not always in the same areas. India is a unique and only such country in the world. Even Belgium, a very small country in Europe, with EU headquarters in Brussels, wants to split along ethnic lines.


You mean that you can talk bullshit but others should say things that you want to hear? Cut the crap. I doubt if you are a sardar. You may be a Paki for all we know - so who the hell do you think you are lecturing people about martial races, north and south India and secularism?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 22 Feb 2012 21:23

SBajwa wrote:
What did you choose


Back in 1980s I tried and failed and opted out to be an engineer. Which is just a Chakri i.e. "working for somebody". I am a garbage is what my grandfather will say as I am neither soldier nor farmer.


Was only pulling your leg SBajwa.
I got selected and still chose 'chakri', so in the same boat as probably are most on this forum :).

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kunalverma » 22 Feb 2012 23:02

Surya wrote:that reminds me

kunal

need to contact you.

let me know

regards

surya


Anytime! Kapil's given you my details I believe.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 22 Feb 2012 23:16

SinghSardar, can you please take this martial race crap to the Off topic thread? Or better still, anywhere besides BRF?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby anjan » 22 Feb 2012 23:27

Pranav wrote:Why the takleef at a perfectly innocuous statement that some groups have military traditions.

Sure technology changes ... but it is some of those "achievements of history" that have saved the civilization in the past. And even today you need folks willing to go into harm's way.
Not speaking for ParGha. My own takleef is when some imaginary exclusive achievements are used to make a case that they alone serve the nation and others primarily march at parades. If you just wanted to spend time alone with your achievements I suspect no one would mind.

There was a question asked earlier about just who was in the Bengal and Madras armies that defeated said "martial races". I guess it's not sunk in yet.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 22 Feb 2012 23:44

Lt Gen Nayar, Katoch, IAS MG Devasahayam, and many others have pointed out the deliberate mangling of records to get the chosen 'line of succession'. They have all pointed out to the letter from MS branch, available to public, stating that the DoB used for promotion of Gen VK Singh was 1951 until 2006, and this included the promotion to Lt Gen. But to what avail? The deliberate action is taking its course and Bikram Singh will be the next General it seems.
Martial race concepts of an upright soldier are all far away from the sordid episode.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 22 Feb 2012 23:59

rajrang wrote: ....

But then Gen Sundarji did not win a war for India. It is easy to show martial qualities with intellectual ideas sitting in an office. Would he have put himself in the shoes of Bana Singh and fought on top of Siachen glacier? We do not know for sure.
...

Well, he was young enough not to be a General at the time, but he did fight 1965 and 1971 war. And then Sumdorong Chu in 1986 ( Wiki) so that statement of yours would be wrong , sir.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 23 Feb 2012 00:05

shyamd wrote:For those who were claiming conspiracy at Gen Bikram Singh's appointment. PMO asked Raw to investigate the in-law. Raw didnt find anything. AKA asked IB to conduct an investigation as well now.

And When did Raa find anything useful that we know? They did not even know that Rabinder was about to jump.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 23 Feb 2012 00:51

Pranav wrote:Why the takleef at a perfectly innocuous statement that some groups have military traditions. Sure technology changes ... but it is some of those "achievements of history" that have saved the civilization in the past. And even today you need folks willing to go into harm's way.


You are wrong. By some definitions of a "good officer", it is sufficient to have folks move from 100% harm's way to <100% harm's way.
Last edited by ParGha on 23 Feb 2012 01:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 23 Feb 2012 01:21

:( :(

Brake on VK blueprint

SUJAN DUTTA
New Delhi, Feb. 21: The Centre has mothballed army chief Gen. V.K. Singh’s ambitious programme to reform and restructure the military from the headquarters downwards.

Gen. Singh calls the reform programme to make the army leaner and faster “transformation”. The ideas were borne out of a two-year study when he was the Eastern Army commander before taking over as the chief. The study was conducted along with Lt Gen. A.K. Singh, currently the Southern Army commander.

The programme essentially has three pillars:

Bring the Corps of Electronics and Mechanical Engineers (EME), the Army Service Corps (ASC) and the Army Ordnance Corps (AOC) under a single “logistics branch”

Integrate officers of the rank of major general with the air force and the navy — and likewise accommodate air vice-marshals and rear admirals in the army (cross-posting) — to make joint operations simpler to execute

Raise two mountain corps (each of about 30,000 troops) to be deployed along the disputed border with China.

The proposals were sent by the army headquarters to the government after the “Sudarshan Shakti” exercise by the 21 (strike) Corps in Rajasthan in December that Lt Gen. Singh had described as the “testbed for transformation”.

The ministry has now asked the army headquarters to “review and re-analyse” the idea of “transformation”. It has questioned whether the mergers of the EME, ASC and AOC were feasible and desirable. On the proposal to cross-post major general-equivalent officers in each of the three armed forces, the ministry wants the concurrence of the navy and the air force.

The raising of two mountain corps — which would mean expanding the infantry — has essentially run into objections from financial advisers and the finance ministry. Two new mountain divisions (totalling about 25,000 troops) are already being raised in the Northeast.

In the army headquarters, an officer associated with the programme said “there seems to be a reluctance in the government to understand modern military concepts”.

The architects of the reform programme believe that the duties of the ASC and the AOC often overlap and bureaucratise military deployment. The ASC is responsible for transporting and distributing supplies to keep the 1.3-million-strong army going. A third of the army is actively deployed on border and counter-insurgency duties.

The ordnance corps is tasked to ensure that stores are available to all units — fuel, fodder, needles, tanks, uniforms, helmets, guns, vehicles, night vision devices, bullets, bombs — the whole paraphernalia of war.

The Corps of EME is tasked to keep weapons, radars, sensors and equipment fighting-fit in the hinterland as well as in forward locations.

The EME, the ASC and the AOC are non-combat arms but are forward-deployed. Without their services, the battalions, brigades, divisions and corps — the field formations — would not operate.

Gen. Singh apparently wanted the three logistics branches to be broken down into smaller contingents that would be integrated into the combat units (teeth) of the army and shorten the supply line (tail) so that deployment could be faster.

In military jargon, he was proposing to reduce the “teeth-to-tail” ratio.

In 2001, for example, it took about a month for the army to be fully deployed along the border with Pakistan under “Operation Parakram” after the attack on Parliament. At a news conference leading to Army Day (January 15) last month, Gen. Singh had claimed after “Exercise Sudarshan Shakti” that deployment time was now down to about 15 days on the western front.

The ASC and the AOC — the inventory, supplies and transport corps of the army — are frequently plagued by corruption cases. A former chief of the ASC, headed by a lieutenant general, is waging a battle in Delhi High Court to stave off a court martial.

Rony
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rony » 23 Feb 2012 02:18

SinghSardar wrote:This "martial race" discussion seems to have really touched off a raw nerve among a large number of BR Fites. Do I sense a form of "resentment" against North Indians here as it seems to me that a large majority of people on this forum are South Indian? Correct me if I am wrong. I hope I am. Such sentiments, if true, do not bode well for India's secularism.


What does this debate has to do with Secularism, of all things ? You first equate "North Indians" with Sikhs and any opposition of martial race theory to anti-Sikhism and hence anti-secularism ? What kind of lahori logic is that ?

You are probably right that many posters here are "South Indian". But you are wrong in that assuming that they are calling out your immature and BS posts because they are "South Indian". This forum has more expereinced, intelligent and knowledgable people to simply keep quite and watch immature people with half knowledge talking BS. It has nothing to do with their regional or ethenic origins.

It looks like you subconcisouly assume that North Indians (i am assuming you are hinting at Sikhs) are "natural martial race" while South Indians (and Bengalis) are not. Martial or Non-Martial depends on context and time periods. No one are naturally martial or non-martial. If you look at Indian history, the South Indian dynasties lasted far longer periods of time than their northern counterparts. This was consistant through out history, before and during the Islamic invasions.

Look at the time periods of rise and fall of Andhra Satavahana Dynasty, Kannada Rashtrakuta dynasty,or Tamil Chola Dynasty or Andhra-Kannadiga Vijaya Nagar Empire.

The Andhra Satavahanas fought the Shaka Satraps from Central Asia for generations.The Indian national calender - Saka Calender has its origins in the Satavahana Emperor Gautamiputra Satakarni who initiated the Saka era to celebrate his victory over the Central Asian origin Shaka satraps. The Satavahana Empire was one of India's longest empires in terms of its reign. It survived for almost 450 years.

The Tamil Cholan dynasty was one of the very few Indian dynasties or empires who can truly be called as "imperial" in classic sense. They were the only ones to send naval expeditions to far flung territories to protect their trade routes and in support of local vassals.

The Kannada Rashtrakuta dynasty survived for close to 250 years and was one of India's dominant dynasty for centuries along with Bengal's Pala dynasty. Bengalis , i assume are also "non-martial" according to you, right ?

The Andhra/Kannadiga Vijaya nagar empire stood as the bulkwark against Islamic expansionism in the south for close to 330 years.

The South Indian dynasties closely resemble Chinese dynasties in terms of their survival and longevity.

Do you think all this is possible without South Indians being "martial" (what ever that means) ?

Even during British colonisation, it was essentially Madras and Bengal regiments which helped the British (a shameful point in our history) in colonising India.After 1857, Sikhs and other 'martial races' helped the British in maintaining that colonisation (another shameful point in our history). Who is martial and who is non-martial here ?

The fact remains that every region of India North, South, East and West had martial traditions in them and they have displayed it during various periods of Indian history.During some periods it was North, other periods South, some other periods East and some other periods west.So it is BS to divide the people of different regions as martial vs non-martial since historically people of all regions displayed martial and non-martial qualities in various periods of Indian history.

People espousing martial race theory always forget that the corollary of martial race theory even during British times was that those "races" are dumb, un-intelligent (and hence easily slavish) and barbarian in nature.North Indians, Sikhs in particular internalising British divide and rule era martial race theory and beleiving South Indians or Bengalis are not martial is as stupid and incorrect as some South Indians internalising in reverse and beleiving that North Indians in general and Sikhs in particular are uncivilized and inferior in terms of intelligence. Both of them are simple stereotypes which needs to be thrown in the dustbin.

negi
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 23 Feb 2012 03:24

There is no end to this nonsense had this been a local Punjabi forum then someone like our good paji would have been splitting hair if Jat Sikhs are more martial than Aroras and Khatris and if that was not enough some would have argued if Bajwas are more martial than the Dhillons. Wah ji Wah.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Roperia » 23 Feb 2012 03:39

Calling someone else's opinion as unintelligible, BS and dumb shows the level the above poster (Rony) has stooped to put forward his point. Let me clarify from the outset, that I'm a Haryanvi Jaat (Hindu) and I'll be focusing my remarks on Jaats and not indulging like the above poster in demeaning some one else's region.

Quoting 700 years old civilizations to prove the capabilities of one's own people, while dismissing with disdain even the modern history of northern India only exposes the selective use of history that taints the poster's argument. The dynasties that are being quoted here are before the time Muslims invaded India. In modern era, the Northern India has seen more warfare and blood shed than their southern counterparts because of their geographic location.

I recommend that you read about Maharaja Suraj Mal, Maharaja Ranjit Singh

Without going too much into the past, it is a fact that even in modern India a large number of Jaats serve in the Indian Army, including the Jat Regiment, Rajputana Rifles, Sikh Regiment and the Grenadiers. Jats even today prefer to go for either agriculture or soldiering as their profession. They have proved in pre and post independence periods that they are fearless soldiers (Refer The Brave People). As farmers, we value our physical strength and work industriously on our lands. These professions are labour intensive jobs and hence there is a degree of strength and perseverance that comes with being a Jat.

Quoting from TOI -
Haryana is India's pride in contact and combative games. With barely 2% of India's population, people from Haryana won around 40% of the gold medals in the recently concluded CWG 2010. The ones in which Haryana got medals stand for plain force and aggression like wrestling, boxing and shooting


And next time if you wish to chose such language while replying to a fellow Sikh (even if you genuinely disagree with him), expect to get in the same tone from me.

sudeepj
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 23 Feb 2012 04:24

An army of the same ethinicity was made to do a Chitter parade in 71 by the SDRE bangladeshis.. :-D
Then IPKF got mauled in the 80s by the Tamils..
The oh so tall and fair and handsome and lovely Americans got their rear end handed to them in Vietnam

Just goes to show, that so called "martial" giri does not stand a chance against better trained, better led, better motivated and better supplied body of troops. Enough already..

I am surprised that mods have allowed this nonsense to continue as long as it has.

FWIW, I am from the Northern parts of India.

sudeepj
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 23 Feb 2012 04:32

Its one thing to take pride in the accomplishments of one's own ethnic group, on and beyond the battlefield. Its entirely another thing to casually suggest and assume, that these qualities are unique to ones ethnic group and are part of that groups culture, genes and so on, while implying that others groups are lacking in these qualities. The latter way of thinking is basically racist and was thrown into the dustbin of history after WW II, when all the proponents of "my race on top" were smashed up.

Such type of thinking is best left to Pakistanis and the more pure people. Indians better learn to avoid this stupidity, or we will suffer the same fate as the Pakistanis.

Roperia
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Roperia » 23 Feb 2012 04:40

No doubt Bengalis won againt the Pak-jabis but IA's help was critical else that Genocide of SDREs by TFTA was going to continue for sometime atleast. The genocide in Balochistan and FATA continue to this day, nothing that the fierce tribals/pashtuns can do in front of better equipment and training.

Vietnam War - Stats from wiki
North Vietnam & NLF 1,176,000 dead
United States of America 58,220 dead
Republic of Vietnam 220,357 – 316,000 dead

The only conclusion I can try from here is that North Vietnamese lost every battle but indeed won the war.

My only point was some on this forum, deliberately took pot-shots at others ethnicity while somehow suggesting that they belong to the region of "viraat" hindus.
Last edited by Roperia on 23 Feb 2012 04:46, edited 1 time in total.


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