Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Apr 2012 23:09

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/tod ... ef=archive

big boss in 2008 said 2 out of 3 stages will be composite in A5 for a start. so 1st stage will be metal now. but the same article says they have a goal to make all composite in 6-7 yrs...

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 02 Apr 2012 02:12

Singha ji, I think we would need the all-composite version for SLBM use. I'd think the weight savings would be invaluable.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Apr 2012 03:38

BrahMos Considers All-New AShM For MiG-29K & MMRCA

...
BrahMos Corp. is looking to develop a new anti-ship missile with a smaller diameter and lighter weight than the present BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. The proposal, tentatively called BrahMos-3, is aimed at putting together a potent anti-ship/anti-surface missile for the Indian Navy's MiG-29K and IAF MMRCA.
...

IMO, in order for Rafale and MiG-29K to be able to carry it in multiples (2 to 4 missiles), BrahMos-3 would need to be the following:

4.5m/5m -> about 50% to 60% the length of BrahMos-1
800kg/1,000kg -> about 30% to 40% the weight of BrahMos-1
150kg/80kg (ASM/ARM) -> about 1/2 the warhead weight (or less for ARM variant) of BrahMos-1
100-150km -> about 1/2 the range (or less) of BrahMos-1

Variants & Quantities (IAF/IN):

AShM -> 500
ASM -> 2000+
ARM -> 2000+

Brahmos-3 has the potential to become the standard ASM for the IAF and IN if the length/weight are kept to the above limits.

For future, it would be wise for the DRDO to R&D a ASM that fits in the internal bays of FGFA and AMCA. These more compact ASMs would be able to be used by Medium-sized ASW helicopters and the LCA as well. Take a look at NSM - Joint Strike Missile as an example with a length of 3.70m, range of 277km, and weight of 407 Kg (including warhead weight of 120kg).

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Apr 2012 08:20

X Post Nuclear submarine INS Arihant in advanced stage of integration : DRDO Chief

K-15 near successful tests, near induction,

Agni 5 in mid April.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2012 09:29

eggcellent - the micro-brahmos has been a demand for a long time among the nuts here. it will make a potent ARM also.

also instead of 1 full sized brahmos-A, the MKI would be able to carry 4 of these if the mission dictates.
likewise the P8I would be able to carry, as well as naval helicopters.

it could even replace the Uran in our ships.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 02 Apr 2012 09:43

Would it be a good stand-in for the AASM that the french seem to ask an arm and a leg for?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2012 09:52

No I think AASM is a much smaller, less ranged and surely cheaper weapon - compare AASM vs SLAM-ER.

longest known hit with a AASM is 55km in libya, 5km outside its design limit.

SLAM-ER types range out to 250km and pack a bigger warhead, no doubt also fly faster, have waypoints and pack ECCM/EW to evade defences...

that being said, personally I think we'd be better of skipping AASM and going for SLAM/micro-brahmos at higher end and wing range extention kits / SDB from Khan at the low end - would be cheaper than AASM probably. we will need to armtwist the french, because apparently they have pinned hopes on selling rafale at rock bottom price but charging us heavily for the weapons, whose fat profits will be cross subsidized back to dassault by the french govt at the back end.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 02 Apr 2012 09:58

Singha wrote:eggcellent - the micro-brahmos has been a demand for a long time among the nuts here. it will make a potent ARM also.

Fundamentally, there does not seem to be any advantage that ramjet or scramjet enjoys over conventional missiles with modern solid propellants. Compare for example the size, weight, payload and speed of Brahmos and Prahaar. The latter technology seems to give better performance.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2012 10:03

I was thinking liquid fuel in ramjet permits a more compact airframe for the same range and speed vs solid fuel rocket? missiles like SLAM or JASSM that fly >= brahmos range tend to fly at 3X slower speed.

the akash and meteor being solid fuel ramjet I dont understand how it works - maybe there is no 'oxidizer grain' and oxygen provides the oxidizer?

I think going the solid fuel ramjet route like meteor could be on the plan vs kerosene in brahmos

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Apr 2012 10:28

Liquid fuel Ramjet offer higher isp over solid fuel ramjet making liquid fuel ramjet more energetic.

Do not forget the payload a missile carries over that range that affects the over all dimension of the missile to carry the payload to a given range , Brahmos carry 300 kg warhead ,versus Akash 55 kg and Meteor much less , plus the trajectory that Brahmos goes through which burns more fuel

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Apr 2012 10:31

If they need a small supersonic missile that can be carried by aircraft like Rafale or Tejas , they are better of integrating a modernised variant of Kh-31 i.e. Kh-31AD , it offers decent range with payload.

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/512/564/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Apr 2012 10:59

DRDO gears up for modern warfare

From the first test of Agni-V in a fortnight, an operational submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) by 2013 and a missile shield for Delhi by 2014 to combat drones, quick-launch micro satellites and Star Wars-like laser weapons in the coming years, DRDO promises to deliver on all fronts.

Concurrently, said Saraswat, "The K-15 SLBM is now getting ready for the final phase of induction after its two recent tests were successful." The 750-km-range K-15 will arm India's homegrown nuclear submarines.

As for the two-tier ballistic missile defence system, designed to track and destroy incoming hostile missiles , Saraswat said its Phase-I would be completed by 2013 and Phase-II by 2016. DRDO is now also focusing on "space security'', with special emphasis on protecting the country's space assets from electronic, or physical destruction by "direct-ascent" missiles, in the backdrop of China developing advanced ASAT (anti-satellite) capabilities.

Work is also in progress to develop several directed energy weapons , including a 25-kilowatt laser system to destroy incoming missiles in their terminal stage and a 100-kilowatt solid-state laser system to take out missiles in their boost phase itself.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2012 11:16

rather than just adopt KH31P airframe, we can generate more work and knowledge internally by downsizing the brahmos and shifting it to a solid or gel based ramjet. might take 1-2 yrs more but well worth it - as it will be a standard airframe for lots of things.

the KH family in general has no attention to RCS reduction unlike the western systems that came after it .... we can address that aspect also.
the KH59 for instance has the engine hanging out at the bottom. even to talk to it need a dedicated pylon mounted datalink pod on launch aircraft. these are weapons from a earlier era.

mody · Post by **mody** » 02 Apr 2012 11:47

Currently which Anti-Ship missile is the MiG-29K and the NLCA supposed to carry?
The P-8I will be armed with the Harpoon Block-II. Is the Harpoon Block-II also carried by the Jaguar-IMs?
Also what about the Seakings? They used to carry the Sea Eagle AShM. Now with the retirement of the Sea Eagle, do they carry any other missiles or are we just waiting for a new Medium weight ASW heli to come in.

Do the Tu-142 or the Il-38s carry any AShMs?

Thanks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2012 13:39

Tu142 & IL38 carries the sea eagle or uran as needed - pix below

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... e.jpg.html
http://vayu-sena.indianmilitaryhistory. ... 5_Uran.jpg
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_431.shtml

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Apr 2012 14:00

and a 100-kilowatt solid-state laser system to take out missiles in their boost phase itself.

Except for maybe Porkistan launched missiles, this has got to be a Space based device. Is it proper to be publicly talking about this?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 02 Apr 2012 14:06

Solar cells of a typical size do not produce that much power. Even a 100 KW laser must be sustained for some time for an effective boost phase intercept, so capacitor banks won't do the trick.

This will surely be land based.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2012 15:13

can such a kit be fitted onto a couple of 40ft container trucks? what are the main components?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Apr 2012 05:30

Wasn't the great khan working on a 747 mounted airborne laser ABM sytem? Don't know if that system got cancelled.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 03 Apr 2012 08:30

nachiket wrote:Wasn't the great khan working on a 747 mounted airborne laser ABM sytem? Don't know if that system got cancelled.

The Air-Borne Laser has been mothballed

http://www.airteamimages.com/pics/145/145031_800.jpg

However, we might be developing something more along the lines of the solid-state, terrestrial, JHPSSL. According to this link, a 100 KW laser could require a 1 MW power supply.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 03 Apr 2012 08:37

^^^ LASERS are very inefficient

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Apr 2012 08:38

PratikDas wrote: The Air-Borne Laser has been mothballed

<snip>

However, we might be developing something more along the lines of the solid-state, terrestrial, JHPSSL. According to this link, a 100 KW laser could require a 1 MW power supply.

We?

Chuck Yeager we?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 03 Apr 2012 09:45

Shiv ji, I was referring to Austin's quote of the DRDO article above. So yes, we are developing a solid state laser.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-02/india/31275075_1_agni-v-ballistic-missile-missile-defence-system

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 04 Apr 2012 20:27

good BDL video. hope this was not posted before.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 04 Apr 2012 22:34

deleted by moderator

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 05 Apr 2012 01:22

Is that supposed to be funny, Dharma? You took Boeing press release content and changed it to suit your sense of humour. If this is piskology then congratulations.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Apr 2012 06:45

Solid State Laser Developments at LASTEC Old article.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 08 Apr 2012 07:25

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 291547.ece

Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, described Agni-V's technology as a “game-changer” for strategic options. Except the U.S., Russia, France and China, no other country had designed and developed this range of systems, he said.

Note how UQ was correctly left off that list

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 08 Apr 2012 11:01

^^^ Thanks tejas for the post. From the above Hindu link, some important things :

Agni-V is 17 metres tall and weighs 50 tonnes. Its diameter is two metres. All its three stages are powered by solid propellants. It can carry a nuclear warhead weighing 1.1 tonne and a dummy payload. The entire flight will last more than 1,000 seconds.

Dr. Sekaran, who is the Chief Designer of Agni-V, said “the foot-print of this missile is Agni-III.” The size, the shape and the height of the two missiles were the same. “The only thing is we have made changes in the configuration and brought it to this level [with a range of 5,000 km].” Agni-III has a range of 3,500 km. With the addition of the third upper stage and changes in the configuration, the two-stage Agni-III has metamorphosed into the awesome Agni-V.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 08 Apr 2012 12:50

^^ from above post

Agni-V is 17 metres tall and weighs 50 tonnes. Its diameter is two metres. All its three stages are powered by solid propellants. It can carry a nuclear warhead weighing 1.1 tonne and a dummy payload. The entire flight will last more than 1,000 seconds.

It's one or the other, can't be both unless the yindoos have goofed up! Of course, we are immensely capable of doing so

Dr. Sekaran, who is the Chief Designer of Agni-V, said “the foot-print of this missile is Agni-III.” The size, the shape and the height of the two missiles were the same. “The only thing is we have made changes in the configuration and brought it to this level [with a range of 5,000 km].” Agni-III has a range of 3,500 km. With the addition of the third upper stage and changes in the configuration, the two-stage Agni-III has metamorphosed into the awesome Agni-V.

[/quote]

So anyone snooping on us won't know if it's A3 or A5 till about midway of boost phase when the ballistic trajectory will become apparent? What if we launch the A5 with a trajectory similar to A3 with some extra flowers & mithai to our near and dear ones?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2012 14:39

the dummy payload is meant as a penetration aid. will deploy one or more rcs inducing things to mimic real warheads and confuse interceptor missiles. it will need a certain weight and volume allowance which is there.

the A5 trajectory will obviously need to be higher than A3 to reach the range. so beyond the point where the A3 reaches its highest point it will become apparent. in either case , A3 or A5 launch means a full scale nuclear war is on....so its not as if anyone will be holding back just because we mislead it as "only" a A3.

the advantages will be in common parts and logistical chain, plus common training and mixed units if A5 is also put on rails.

the Topol-M which is BRFs previously favourite ICBM is 22.7m x 1.9m x 47.2 tons...its payload of warhead + decoys is said as 1.2tons. it is 3 stage and solid fuel.

so how on earth is its range 11,000km while A5 is quoted as only 5500km with the same dimensions and payload

. Rus cant be using a super duper solid fuel powder.

or does the 2.7m extra length if used in the 3rd stage have a huge impact on the range?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2012 14:46

some clues as to why topol-M pulls ahead. looks like all its 3 stages are composites and its 1st stage has some uber powerful 3xrockets.
--
Body of the rocket is made by winding carbon fiber.
The first stage has three rocket motors developed by the Soyuz Federal Center for Dual-Use Technologies. This gives the missile a much higher acceleration than other ICBM types. It enables the missile to accelerate to the speed of 7,320 m/s and to travel a flatter trajectory to distances of up to 10,000 km
--
at present only the 3rd stage of A5 is composite. no doubt they will attempt to make it all-composite by 2020 while just talking of making it lighter and faster and not speaking of the enhanced range.

BrijeshB · Post by **BrijeshB** » 08 Apr 2012 18:20

Singha wrote:the dummy payload is meant as a penetration aid. will deploy one or more rcs inducing things to mimic real warheads and confuse interceptor missiles. it will need a certain weight and volume allowance which is there.

the A5 trajectory will obviously need to be higher than A3 to reach the range. so beyond the point where the A3 reaches its highest point it will become apparent. in either case , A3 or A5 launch means a full scale nuclear war is on....so its not as if anyone will be holding back just because we mislead it as "only" a A3.

the advantages will be in common parts and logistical chain, plus common training and mixed units if A5 is also put on rails.

the Topol-M which is BRFs previously favourite ICBM is 22.7m x 1.9m x 47.2 tons...its payload of warhead + decoys is said as 1.2tons. it is 3 stage and solid fuel.

so how on earth is its range 11,000km while A5 is quoted as only 5500km with the same dimensions and payload . Rus cant be using a super duper solid fuel powder.

or does the 2.7m extra length if used in the 3rd stage have a huge impact on the range?

Singhaji, would it be only 2.7m difference for the 3rd stage(22.7-17=5.7)..

?
Correct me if I'm wrong

http://www.missilethreat.com/missilesof ... detail.asp

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2012 19:52

indeed the agni3 is listed as 17m not 20m in other parts of the web.

in that I wonder why they did not solve the problem in one stroke by making 3rd stage couple meters longer so that range in current config could increase to say 6500km and when all stages are composite even farther.

perhaps the risk reduction in not tinkering too much with A3 and the size of vehicle/roads in india dictated that choice. for sure the beastly Topol-M TELAR would get stuck on many indian roads, apart from leaving 1000s of people gaping open mouthed at its sheer size and presence.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Apr 2012 20:50

GD, India has more emphasis on accuracy due to its payloads. To get there they need the payload section to correct for that. Hence same specs give lesser range. But more accurate.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2012 21:14

well the topol is certainly 6m longer if the web reports are true. thats a lot of difference esp if its in the 3rd stage size.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 08 Apr 2012 21:14

^^^
sirji,

A3 with 17m X2m at range 3500km can throw a total payload of 2500kg( with warhead+countermeasures)

When A5 borrowed pretty-much everything from A3 + extra stage to increase the range to 6000km onleee still retains the original throw weight capability of A3

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2012 21:17

2500kg payload only makes sense with a 4 X MIRV deployment. else 550kg single warhead is all we can throw. this might increase the range upto 13,000km

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 08 Apr 2012 21:43

Singha wrote:2500kg payload only makes sense with a 4 X MIRV deployment. else 550kg single warhead is all we can throw. this might increase the range upto 13,000km

Just curious, I know that range is a function of payload, but do we test such cases during the missile testing? For example, will A-5 be tested with a single MIRV payload and tested to its full range (10k +) in such cases?

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 08 Apr 2012 21:44

It seems A5 though canisterised is still rail launched. What would be the challenges of making it road mobile?
Dont see anything near the size of the Topol telar coming out of desh. Guess the better option would be to get some Russia telars.