Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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member_20317
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_20317 »

^ something like a moving target with BAE Adaptiv tiles could create difficulties.

Unless I missed out something.
Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

SaiK wrote:lock on (infrared) before launch sounds very interesting.. it would be really interesting to find infra jammers for 7km range walas. is there one?
In this case it has to be an Imaging Infra red jammer.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

they should test out of a few of these nags at night during new moon days.

nags out during new moon midnight sounds scary enough
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

There are no countermeasures to Imaging Infra Red seekers. They are immune to any kind of jamming.
hnair
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by hnair »

^^^ DIRCM
tsarkar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

^^ DIRCM uses arc lamp or lasers to flash a high intensity beam and dazzle conventional IR seeker. It doesnt work against IIR that gets a heat image like this http://www.ausairpower.net/000-AIM-9X-F ... -300-S.jpg It analyses the target image, and rejects any dazzling.

This is why IIR is unbeatable today.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Karan M »

High powered, laser based DIRCM is being evolved further to handle IIR seekers as well.

Page 16, USN S&T Development plan

IIR seekers: A laser based DIRCM and kinematic flares to defeat I2R (IIR) seekers for FY13.

http://www.paxpartnership.org/Knowledge ... tation.pdf

The ex Soviet Union used to be a leader in laser tech. It will be interesting to see what DIRCM the FGFA/PAKFA has & the threats it can handle.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

Last edited by Gerard on 15 Apr 2012 04:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed inlining
Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Indranil »

The answer to that is yes. look closely.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZRiSC9hp1gE/T ... 770494.JPG
Last edited by Gerard on 15 Apr 2012 04:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed inlining
dinesha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by dinesha »

Crucial tests of three Agni missiles soon
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/crucial-test ... 0-117.html
Preparations are on at the Wheelers Island off the Odisha coast for a series of tests of three Agni missiles, including the maiden test of India’s longest-range ballistic missile Agni-5. They will be held shortly. Prior to the first development trial of 5,000-km range Agni-5, the DRDO has planned to conduct two user trials of 700-km range Agni-1 and 2,000-km range Agni-2 missile.
As India is attempting its first intercontinental missile test, scientists are leaving no stone unturned for a successful mission. A defence official said the three missiles would require three separate range configurations.
Hence, they would be test-fired on three occasions between April 18 and April 25.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by RoyG »

FIRST GLIMPSE OF AGNI V ON LAUNCHPAD IN THE LINK BELOW: (NO VENTED INTERSTAGE) :twisted:
TRIBUNE EXCLUSIVE
India’s most potent missile Agni V all set for launch
By Raj Chengappa

SNEAK PEAK: Agni V being readied for launch at Wheeler Island

In the remote Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast, the countdown has begun for the first test of India's most sophisticated and powerful ballistic missile ever built, Agni V.

If all goes well, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) which built the missile, is expected to launch Agni V on Wednesday, April 18, from the Island.

With a planned range of 5,000 km, the Agni V will traverse 2,000 km more than any Indian missile has ever done. Wednesday's launch will see the missile first power its way to a vertical height of 500 km in the atmosphere before following a ballistic trajectory that will see it splash down in the Indian Ocean way beyond Indonesia.

A commercial jetliner would take over six hours to traverse such a distance. But Agni V, travelling at 24 times the speed of sound and 30 times faster than a commercial jet, will traverse that distance in just 18 to 20 minutes. In doing so, it will become not just the longest range ballistic missile in India's strategic armoury but also its fastest. Most importantly, Agni V would put most of China's major cities, including Beijing and Shanghai, within Indian missile range.

Speaking exclusively to The Tribune, Vijay Kumar Saraswat, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to the Union Defence Minister, said, "In terms of performance, Agni V is the ultimate step for India in terms of ballistic missile technology. It is pushing at the outer limits of the Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) class."

What Saraswat is unwilling to explicitly state, is that a successful test of Agni V would give India the capability of building long-range Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, ICBMs or missiles that can reach targets of 8,000 km or more. (Meaning its probably got a range of 8,000 km depending on the payload)

With a warhead weight of 1,500 kg (1.5 tonne) Agni V will ultimately be capable of carrying multiple nuclear warheads giving it deadly strike capability. :twisted:

Agni V would be a significant step up from the range of Agni missiles that India currently has in its armoury. Agni I goes to 700 km and Agni II, 2000 km. Both these are primarily meant to target Pakistan, giving India a capability to strike its neighbour from any part of the country.

Agni III and Agni IV are missiles in the 3,000 km class meant for China and other regional neighbours. The distance though is a limitation as these classes of missiles would be unable to strike many of China's strategic cities or locations. So the need for Agni V.

Speaking exclusively to The Tribune from the Wheeler Island, where final tests are being done for Agni V, Avinash Chander, DRDO's Chief Controller R&D (Missiles and Strategic Systems), said, "There are many firsts we are incorporating in Agni V, these include two all new composite motors that would propel the missile to distances bordering ICBM capabilities."

At 17 metres in height, Agni V is almost 5 stories tall and has a diameter of two meters - similar to that of the giant main sewage pipelines that are laid in most Indian cities. Agni V is short and squat as compared to India's space rockets.

Almost three years in the making, Agni V is a three-stage rocket that, Chander says, has one of the most highly developed guidance systems that the DRDO has ever built to enable it to strike targets at great distance with stunning accuracy.
:mrgreen:

While the first stage motor is similar to the one used in Agni III, the second and third stage motors are brand new and built of light composite materials that are being flight tested for the first time. "It reduces weight and gives the missile greater punch,'' says Chander.

Though the first launch would be from a static harness at the Island, Agni V would have tremendous road mobility once it is fully developed. These include a canister launch which means that it gives India "stop and launch" capability from any part of the country. 8) "Once we successfully test Agni V we would have broken the barrier of long range ballistic missile systems,'' says Saraswat.



Missile Muscle

n With a range of 5,000 km, Agni V will traverse 2,000 km more than any other Indian missile

n Travelling at 24 times the speed of sound, Agni V will traverse 5,000 km in just 20 minutes

n If successful, it will give India the capability of striking all major Chinese cities, including Shanghai

n The technology being used in Agni V will ultimately give India the capability to build Inter-Continental Ballisitic Missiles (ICBMs)
Image

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120416/main2.htm
Last edited by RoyG on 16 Apr 2012 06:48, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

RoyG, Some quick points:
- There are interstages between the first an second and second and third stages. Its just below the band where the TEL holds the vehicle.
- No truss structure between the F/S and S/S. Means they have mastered the timing issue between separation and SS motor ignition i.e the bottle type igniter is being use for reliability. So no need for the vented structure.
-Most likely the separation is by shaped charge and not MDF type cutting charge.
- Third stage is a frustrum of a cone!
- The payload is a unitary one like in AIII and not a bus with MIRVs yet.

I haven't seen conical motors except on the Sprint ABM which made it go hypersonic in just a few secs. The conical motor has static stability and needs much less control margin.

So the T/S and RV section are traveling at very high speed but still in atmosphere.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by RoyG »

Ramana,

Thanks for pointing out the error. I meant vented interstage. WRT the conical motor, is it possible that the unitary warhead could be a hypersonic skipper to evade ABM defenses? It def has the range to pull it off. I'm thinking it could be a derivative of the agni IV warhead.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

Mach24 is good - matches the best out there.
I was hoping for a cansister launch from day1, it is a must for true road mobility.
could be a while before we get to FOC with cansister - perhaps around 5 yrs.

for MIRV, the conical motor will need to be cylindrical again to support the ogival nosecone. indicates it will be A5-mk2 later. I was hoping that would go that route from day1.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Agni-5 looks good , no interstage , nice clean missile perfect for wooden round.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

No Vented interstage.

You need an interstage to connect the motors.

No other way.

Look up "Design of Missile Structures" E. Bruhn. dated book but still very essential.
The materials have changed from Al based alloys to composites with their own issues.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

ramana wrote:No Vented interstage.

You need an interstage to connect the motors.

No other way.
Yes i mean Vented Interstage , they would probably use some kind of rocket motors to prevent interia during stage separation hitting each other , while vented inter-stage may not be of great use for ground launched missile , this approach will be very useful when they design bigger slbm to be fitted on confined spaces of future ATV with its own premium on space.
The materials have changed from Al based alloys to composites with their own issues.
That being true but the benefit of getting payload vs range advantage is best served using composite stage , all stage composite motor has been in use for long time with Soviet first deploying all 3 stage composite motor with SS-25 in early 80's
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Sid »

Looking at the TEL size both Agni 3 and Agni 5 seems to have same height!

"If" that is true then scientists were able to increase range within same dimensions or Agni 3 had "similar" range as Agni 5 from the beginning?

ImageImage
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

There is something called range partials. ie delta range for delta weight increase. The most range partials is for the upper stages. IOW the lighter the upper stages the higher is the range gain. What this means is one can use Al interstage between the SS and FS as that would be quite economical.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

the vented interstage length has been used for the conical section keeping length about same.
also to me, the blue cone looks smaller relative to black cone in both length and width-at-base.

Austin, unfortunately it looks like Russia is not willing to txfer their composite casing tech for the 1st stage...thats the biggest challenge.

the fat 1st and 2nd stage with tapering cone shape from there gives it the look more of a ABM interceptor than a ICBM.
http://www.aipac.org/NearEastReport/ima ... -Med-2.jpg
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

GD, There is a taper from the top to bottom. The SS will be slightly smaller in dia than FS and so and so forth.

It prevents missile bow. Eg like a flying banana.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Singha wrote:also to me, the blue cone looks smaller relative to black cone in both length and width-at-base.
The size and resolution of picture when comparing might play a trick there
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

mach24 is true ICBM territory....the topols and tridentD5 of the world. whatever fig leaf of this being a meek IRBM++ gets blown off by that statement alone.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Also nice to see Raj Chengappa's name beside the article. Haven't seen much of him since his acclaimed "Weapons of peace". A real bright spot, together with T.S Subramaniam of Frontline, on Indian defense reporting. Very uplifting and richly detailed, so different from the sour, negative stuff from the pens of Sawhney, Thapar, Bedi et al.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by D Roy »

mach24 is true ICBM territory....the topols and tridentD5 of the world. whatever fig leaf of this being a meek IRBM++ gets blown off by that statement alone.

Quite. but how does that sit with the 500 km apogee. :twisted:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

I guess some of the US satellites and dedicated assets like Cobra Ball would monitor the test and try to suck in as much as telemetry data as possible and that of RV.

There was a report in AW&ST some time back that was detailing some history of cobra ball , it mentioned every time india tested its BM ,cobra ball would find its way in bay of bengal.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

ramana wrote:The payload is a unitary one like in AIII and not a bus with MIRVs yet.
Can you explain this saab.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

D Roy wrote:
mach24 is true ICBM territory....the topols and tridentD5 of the world. whatever fig leaf of this being a meek IRBM++ gets blown off by that statement alone.
Quite. but how does that sit with the 500 km apogee. :twisted:
To add, how does it compare with the 900 km apogee achieved by a 3000 to 3500 km ranged Agni-IV?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Bus is similar to the multi satellite launch during civilian sat launch

Each unit will be launched in a serial manner once the desired space location is reached
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Folks is there any news on Nirbhay launch, supposed to be tested in the middle of this month?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by negi »

Wow sounds like it was launched in a depressed trajectory.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Sanku »

negi wrote:Wow sounds like it was launched in a depressed trajectory.
Launched? Was it launched already?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by koti »

Acharya wrote:Bus is similar to the multi satellite launch during civilian sat launch

Each unit will be launched in a serial manner once the desired space location is reached
Ok.
But how can u recognize that from the outside? Will the nozzle/Payload cone be more blunt having more volume?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Agni-V missile test likely this Wednesday Source:PTI

The usual details about the preparation except this reference to Agni-IV
Scientists associated with Agni-V project are quite optimistic about its performances, as the first trial of Agni-IV on November 15 last year was highly satisfactory in terms of its 'control and guidance' system.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

A4(A2-AT) has the most sophisticated guidance system till date of any indian BM. so its likely the A5 system is a derivative of that technology base...the further range you have the guidance system needs to be much better to give the same CEP @ 2000km as at 7000km
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by D Roy »

Methinks the depressed trajectory is being done ( assuming the tribune article doesn't contain a typo, in the sense that apogee is actually 1500 and not 500) because this is the first test launch of the Agni V.

It could also be that the missile is a wee bit slower than the Minuteman III et al and the shorter flight time is being achieved via the depressed trajectory.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

but would that make it impossible to reach mach24?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by D Roy »

Well, the RV isn't gonna reach Mach 24. the overall time taken is however less because of the depressed trajectory. But the RV itself is gonna be slower.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

some data points. Minuteman3 has a 4th stage motor, that presumably stretches its max range. very low thrust liquid engine but as it only needs to push the MIRV section at light gravity, it does the job. this is likely the HAM (high alt motor) that Arun_S used to talk of.

irst Stage 210,000 lb (933,000 KN) thrust Thiokol M-55e solid fuel motor
Second Stage 60,300 lb (268,000 KN) thrust Aerojet General solid fuel motor
Third Stage 34,400 lb (153,000 KN) thrust Thiokol 73-AJ-1 solid fuel motor
Post-Boost Stage 315 lb (1400 KN) thrust Rocketdyne RS-14 restartable liquid fuel motor, fueled with monomethylhydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide (1:1.6 ratio)

Wiki:
Flight phases

The following flight phases can be distinguished:
boost phase: 3 to 5 minutes (shorter for a solid rocket than for a liquid-propellant rocket); altitude at the end of this phase is typically 150 to 400 km depending on the trajectory chosen, typical burnout speed is 7 km/s.

midcourse phase: approx. 25 minutes—sub-orbital spaceflight in an elliptic flightpath; the flightpath is part of an ellipse with a vertical major axis; the apogee (halfway through the midcourse phase) is at an altitude of approximately 1,200 km; the semi-major axis is between 3,186 km and 6,372 km; the projection of the flightpath on the Earth's surface is close to a great circle, slightly displaced due to earth rotation during the time of flight; the missile may release several independent warheads, and penetration aids such as metallic-coated balloons, aluminum chaff, and full-scale warhead decoys.

reentry phase (starting at an altitude of 100 km): 2 minutes—impact is at a speed of up to 4 km/s (for early ICBMs less than 1 km/s);

----
its news to me that the RV speed is NOT the max ever speed of the missile. 4 km/s maps to Mach14 onlee.
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