Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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svinayak
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 20 Apr 2012 02:46

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16211653

British people again.

"So that's what our foreign aid gets spent on, a missile that can carry a nuclear warhead that can reach the UK, NICE 1.
What a bunch of idiots we have running our country!!"

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Apr 2012 02:47

sudhan wrote:Becky Anderson (CNN), go on babbling about the US and world double standards on the A5, test [grrr..]

"Why should anyone test a nuclear capable rocket now?" :shock:

"Why do they have to show off that you have the capability?" :eek: :shock:

What a retard!! :evil:

Poor MMS congratulating the scientific community was made to look as if he was boasting like NoKo... :shock:

Even the khans keep testing, and so is Russia. so ignore that stupidity.. khan media persons are inherent born liers., and do not stand for truth. khans had to show off their missile defence, so that just showing off is enough deterrent for the adversary.. example: china has already thinking hard on their strategies towards aiding pakis. pakis are trying to negotiate and withdraw from siachin..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sudhan » 20 Apr 2012 02:48

Shaashtanga wrote:
ramana wrote:abhijitm, A star is born and we need to recongize that. On BRF, MKI is called Rambha and Raffy is called Katrina.

Lets name A5 the Tessy.

Suraj, Here is google link to all the ~ 1250 stories and counting about the A5 test and reactions!

Google News on A5 Test reactions


Ramana sir, pardon my ignorance but who does "Tessy" refer to ?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessy_Thomas

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby keshavchandra » 20 Apr 2012 02:51

I have a question for all gurus here...
As we see at the launch site, they carried the A5 on rail. But what other options do we have for transport and launch flexibility. (Or we would use again the Tatra for A5 also)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Fidel Guevara » 20 Apr 2012 02:54

Altair wrote:I actually love to have missiles aimed at Pakistan to have Female names.
For Chinese I would like to call A-5 "The Lama".
Just for kicks :lol:
Tessy for Pakistan specific missiles would wreck havoc in Pindi.


How about Genghis? Sure will wake up the pandas! All the connotations of merciless destruction, and total impotence of the Great Wall...!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Fidel Guevara » 20 Apr 2012 03:04

Though Western govts are happily selling the 5,000km range, not everyone is buying it. I saw a journo on CBC mention that this could potentially be 7000km +, which would include most of Western Europe and Australia. Comment on the Globe & Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... /comments/

Too heavy by far. 50 tons, for 5,500 km range, in 2012? The Soviet Union had the SS-20 missile with a similar range, that weighed in at 37 tons...BACK IN 1976.

The US Minuteman missile weighs 36 tons, and can launch warheads up to 13,000 km away...granted, the total warhead weight is much less than this Indian missile.

Methinks something is fishy here...either the Indians are WAY backward when it comes to rocket design (in spite of having the Russians as their best friends), or they actually have a (MUCH) longer range than they are letting on. :D

Probably to prevent Western concern about "Indian Nukes are targeting us", if they revealed that the true range was, say, 7000-8000 km, and that Western Europe was also within the strike envelope.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shaashtanga » 20 Apr 2012 03:09

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessy_Thomas[/quote]

Thanks Sudhanji. I shall go and drown myself in chullu bhar pani.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2012 03:14

Hindu reports on the blockhouse atmosphere after the test


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 332940.ece

I think both T. S. Subramanian &
Y. Mallikarjun
need special recognition for the outstanding accurate reports.



Blockhouse Atmosphere.

T. S. Subramanian
Y. Mallikarjun

The atmosphere in the Block House on Wheeler Island turned electric with celebrations on Thursday when it became clear that the Agni-V mission was a resounding success.

Bursts of applause and shouts of ‘DRDO Zindabad, Hip Hip Hooray' filled the air, as young scientists lifted up V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister; Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems) DRDO; and V.G. Sekaran, Director, Advanced Systems Laboratory and chaired them around.

The mission was so perfect that the missile's re-entry vehicle hit the waters of the Indian Ocean in the targeted area with an accuracy of a few metres.{Note not tens of meters but meters!} Dr. Saraswat said the entire mission was monitored by three ships stationed down range, telemetry and radars along the coast. The data indicated that the mission objectives were fully met. The fireball created by the explosion of the dummy payload was recorded by cameras onboard the ships.

{Fuze was functioned successfully, This is a real deal test with inert warhead but active components}

Agni-V is such a versatile missile, incorporating as it does several new technologies, that Dr. Saraswat called it “a technological marvel.” “This missile belongs to the 21st century not only in timeframe but in technological capability.” In terms of deterrence, the missile would be “a game changer,” said Dr. Saraswat, himself a missile technologist.

Mr. Avinash Chander stressed that the three-stage missile had several new technologies that contributed to the mission's success. These included rocket motor casings made up of carbon composites, the motors contoured to suit the missile's shape, high-performance navigation, guidance and control systems and rail/road mobile launcher. All the sub-systems fabricated by the DRDO were fully validated.

“This gives us the confidence to go in for larger number [of missiles] and longer ranges. But a longer range is not the issue. Our main focus is on induction [of the missile into the armed forces],” Mr. Chander stressed.

{So they used production quality components and not lab made or groomed. Its a quasi-production evaluation test also.}

Mr. Chander, who also acted as Programme Director, Agni-V, said: “With Agni-V, we can reach all targets of interest from deep inside India. The same system allows you to reach the farthest corners where you want to exert your influence while providing sufficient protection for yourself.” Since it could be launched from a road mobile launcher and a canister, it was difficult to intercept the missile and defeat it while being launched.

{So due to mobility, it is challenging to intercept it in boost phase.}

V.G. Sekaran, Director of Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), Hyderabad, said: “A great advantage in the configuration of Agni-V is that we can further enhance and expand its range. We could upscale Agni-III with a range of 3,500 km to Agni-V in a short time. On similar lines, we can go beyond Agni-V. That is the beauty of Agni-V's configuration. Its up-scaling and mobility is high.

{So its a flexible and scalable design. Hence all those variants they were talking about:ASAT, longer range, MIRV etc}


The ASL designed and developed Agni-V.

Dr. Sekaran, the chief designer of the missile, stressed that the rocket motor casings made up of carbon composites gave the missile a better performance.

G. Satheesh Reddy, Associate Director, Research Centre Imarat, said the missile's two navigation systems, on-board computers, control actuator systems and mission interface units used the latest technology. During the mission, the on-board computer estimated the trajectory every few milliseconds and made the missile system follow that path. Besides the propulsion, Mr. Reddy said, both the navigation systems worked perfectly, giving accuracy of a few metres.

The most important technology of inertial navigation, guidance and control systems, which went into the missile, was the brainchild of Research Centre Imarat (RCI), its Director S.K. Chaudhuri said. It was redundantly configured with state-of-the-art systems. All the systems were validated by advanced simulation at the RCI.

Tessy Thomas, Project Director, Agni-V Mission, said: “We had an excellent mission, meeting all objectives from the lift-off to the impact. Three stages of guidance, which were new, could meet the mission objectives fully.”

{She means that third stage guidance is a new module as opposed to earlier vehicles had two stages only}

R.K. Gupta was the Project Director for Agni-V.



Fidel, Any mention of the satellite weights they want to fly on A5? That would indicate that type of payload anywhere in the world right now.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 20 Apr 2012 03:17

Fidel, the reaction on Canadian message boards generally follows the parochial "Why condemn North Korea but not India", "They have so many starving people, why don't they do something about that instead" and "India will start a new arms race". Rarely will you see a non-ethnic Indian attempt to empathise with India about its mostly regional concerns, or its *history*. Gosh, imagine a Canadian doing that. One poster on the cbc.ca forum did say something about India countering China and its pit bull North Korea- would be surprised if that fellow is Indian. But that is a rare expression of support. There is also someone called "TheVarun" (LOL) doing his little bit to refute the India=North Korea, India= only starving people idiocy, and clear the air about this test.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2012 03:26

Confirmation of the MARV mode of deployment and the reason/need for the conical motor!!!!

Canister Storage gives A5 flexibility


Rajat Pandit in TOI

NEW DELHI: After the mischief played by weather gods a day earlier, the god of fire or ''Agni'' came into his own on Thursday morning to hurl a potent fireball more than halfway across the expanse of the Indian Ocean at over 20 times the speed of sound.

India heralded a new era in its "credible" strategic deterrence capability by testing its most ambitious nuclear missile - the over 5,000-km range Agni-V - that brings all of China and much more within its strike envelope.

With the launch of the 50-tonne missile from the Wheeler Island off Odisha coast at 8.07 am, and its 20-minute flight to an ''impact point towards western Australia'', India also yanked open the door to the super-exclusive ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) club that counts only the US, Russia, China, France and the UK as its members.

India can, however, can sit at this high table only when the 17.5-metre tall Agni-V, which just about meets the 5,500-km ICBM benchmark, becomes fully operational after ''four to five repeatable tests'' and user-trials. It will be around 2015 that the three-stage, solid-fuelled missile will be ready for deployment by the tri-Service Strategic Forces Command.

That didn't dampen the celebrations though. ''It's a game-changer...a super hit. India is a major missile power now. I don't think it will take more than two years for Agni-V to be ready for induction,'' an elated DRDO chief, V K Saraswat, told TOI soon after the test.

Chief controller (missiles and strategic systems) Avinash Chander said, ''We have met all the mission objectives...All the three stages of propulsion, with indigenously developed composite rocket motors, worked perfectly.''

The maiden test of Agni-V, designed to carry a 1.5-tonne nuclear warhead, expectedly generated waves around the globe. The missile, after all can deliver multiple warheads and cover the whole of Asia, 70% of Europe, eastern Africa and other regions, leaving only continental America beyond its deadly reach.

Even as PM Manmohan Singh, defence minister A K Antony congratulated the scientists for ''doing the country proud'', the US took note of India's ''solid non-proliferation record''.

China, however, made its displeasure clear despite its own huge nuclear and missile arsenals that completely dwarf the Indian capacity. Beijing, for instance, has well over four times the nuclear warheads that New Delhi possesses.

Moreover, the People's Liberation Army has missiles like the 11,200-km Dong Feng-31A that can hit any Indian city, and even unnerves the US. It also has nuclear missile bases in Qinghai province, which house the DF-21 missiles that unmistakably target India.

India, with a declared ''no first-use'' nuclear doctrine, could have gone in for a much higher range ICBM, say top officials. But Agni-V, with its ''very short reaction time as well as very high mobility for requisite operational flexibility'', takes care of India's ''current threat perceptions and primary area of concern''.

The test itself was a huge technological and logistical challenge. After lifting-off from the mobile launcher at the test range, the missile being propelled by the first stage that burnt out and separated in 90 seconds tore into the sky.

After heading into space during its parabolic trajectory, reaching an altitude of 600-km, the missile then re-entered the atmosphere powered by the third stage.

{MARV phase begins with powered re-entry}

The missile reached hypersonic velocities of around 7,000-metre per second in the terminal stage before splashing down in the southern Indian Ocean, all along being monitored by shore and warship-based tracking systems.

{Thats 7km/sec if someone is reading! That is clearly ICBM velocity!!!!}


''All three stages went off extremely well. The re-entry parameters were superb...all terminal events related to detonation of the warhead (it was a dummy payload for the test) happened in textbook style. As missile scientists, we could not have expected anything better,'' Saraswat told TOI.

The armed forces have already inducted Agni-I (700-km) and Agni-II (2,500-km), which are both basically meant to account for a threat from Pakistan. The 3,000-km Agni-III (under induction), 3,500-km Agni-IV (tested for the first time last November) and Agni-V have been designed with China in their scheme of things.

Unlike the earlier largely rail-mobile missiles, Agni-V can be easily stored in hermitically sealed canisters and swiftly transported atop launcher trucks by road. This will give the armed forces the required operational flexibility to pick and choose from where to launch the missiles.

Agni-V has a ''highly accurate'' inertial navigation system and will get an even more potent punch with MIRV (multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles) warheads. An MIRV payload carries several nuclear warheads on a single missile that can be programmed to hit different targets.

A flurry of MIRV missiles can hence completely overwhelm an adversary's ballistic missile defences. DRDO has also worked to reduce the radar and other ''signatures'' of missiles like Agni-IV and Agni-V to make them ''much more immune to counter-measures''.

''Indigenous content'' in India's strategic missiles has ''gone up to such a level'', with ring-laser gyros, composite rocket motors, micro-navigation systems and the like, that ''no technology control regime'' can derail them any longer, added the DRDO chief.



So here it is folks. A5 was an ICBM, no doubt about it. Its a first of its kind.

A heavy MARV ICBM.

The DRDO broke the sixth country jinx* that Kalam laments in "Wings of Fire".


* Every technological achievement is prefaced or modified with Indian is the sixth country to do this or that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 20 Apr 2012 03:28

http://www.irna.ir/News/General/Maiden- ... l/80086456
Islamic Republic News Agency/IRNA NewsCode: 80086456



Confucius comments, man with hard rocket make wife very happy.

Regarding the issue though, I find it hard to believe the Indians had the gall to do this so close to the widely condemned North Korean missile test. It would be very hypocritical if this doesn't go unaswered by the international community as a whole.

China would say that if Indian, U.S., Israel & co. could launch ICBM, but they forbid North Korea or Iran to launch their ICBM, that could only show the barbaric characteristic of Westen Regimes against the world's civilization.
Last edited by svinayak on 20 Apr 2012 03:34, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2012 03:32

A5 game changer

Hindu Business Line

M Somashekar

India does not need foreign assistance for surface-to-surface missiles of the Agni variety.

The successful launch of Agni-V, the ballistic missile with a reach of 5,000 km, and capability to deliver 1.5 tonne payload, including nuclear, could well signal the arrival of India as a missile power. This, will be a fitting addition to its status as a nuclear and space power and will enhance the much needed strategic deterrence required amidst a hostile neighbourhood.

Agni V will be a game changer for India in several ways. It will propel India, into the very exclusive club of nations with the capability to launch an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM). This includes, the US, Russia, France and China.

The success marks the validation of a host of key technologies that one cannot get for money or friendship. It demonstrates, the high quality and standardisation of components, sub-systems and systems made by the Indian industry. More than 20 national labs and 200 industry are associated with the mega-Agni programme.

The major milestone moment for the country also proves that the entire weapons system is validated in the maiden trial itself. :mrgreen:

In addition to several technologies like navigation, re-entry, solid propellants, launch from rail mobile platform, onboard computation, the test also gives a boost to the strategic command system and the readiness to use the system as well as delivery to the user — Army, say defence scientists.

The Indian missile programme can step into a new era building on the confidence derived from the Agni project. It will give an impetus to the future missile programme of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). This includes development of multiple warhead delivering capabilities, MARVs (Manouevring re-entry Vehicles), create an anti-satellite interception capability, all of high precision, speed and capability.

The outflow or spin-offs of proving a complex system as Agni V will give a big boost to the tactical and short range missiles that the DRDO is developing.

The entire monitoring, tracking and data collection and transmission system will also be strengthened. The Interim Test Range (ITR), Balasore is also being beefed up. A new test range is being proposed at Port Blair along with the expansion of facilities along the coast to collect data in realtime, as well as naval ships.

The fire power that the five systems of Agni pack will give a new dimension to the country's defence. For the scientists involved it is a major milestone and a dream come true, as echoed by Dr Avinash Chander, the Chief Controller (missiles and strategic systems), who was directing the launch today and has been associated with the Agni missile development right through.

The Agni Story

The journey of Agni, which began around 25 years ago can be divided into two phases. The first phase or technology demonstrator under Dr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam and followed by Dr R.N. Agarwal was undertaken in the late 1980s.

The second phase is from 1999-2012. During this phase the DRDO scientists achieved big strides, demonstrating Agni I to Agni V missile systems.

After an initial technical problem, the first technology demonstrator of Agni was proved in May 1989, when Dr Kalam, as the Director of Defence Research and Development Laboratory and Project leader of Agni, announced its success to the world, from Hyderabad. During 1989-94, three flight trials were carried out with different fuels — solid, liquid and ranges of 700 to 1000 km.

Having established initial capabilities, the programme was taken to the more challenging weaponisation phase in 1995.

The Congress Government led by Mr P.V. Narasimha Rao gave the green signal for the ambitious programme
.

The DRDO, with its growing missile complex in Hyderabad, undertook the first test with the weapon system for a range of 700 km in 1999 with success.

This ushered in the present dream run of 13 years, wherein the missile scientists have demonstrated the capability to develop and prove the Agni and Prithvi (300 km) missiles from 700 km to long range of 5,000 km, with full weapon systems.

“This is a remarkable achievement, and unparalleled given the challenges the country had to face,” says Dr Avinash Chander.

COMPLETELY INDIGENOUS

The other big stride achieved in this period is the shortening of the development cycles. This in turn cuts down on the costs. For example, the design to delivery of the missile system is around 5-7 years. With the Agni missile being fully home-grown and technology 100 per cent indigenous, the cost of producing an Agni missile will be less than a third of similar systems, say DRDO scientists.

If Agni-II took nearly 10 years, the recent Agni-III and IV will take less than 5 years for induction. Even Agni-V is expected to be inducted into the armed forces by 2015, according to Dr V.K. Saraswat, Chief of DRDO and Scientific Advisor to the Raksha Mantri. India does not need any foreign assistance for the surface-to-surface missiles of the Agni class, he declared recently.

At another end, the trial also shows the synergy between DRDO labs and industry. The maturity attained by Indian industry in fabricating critical components, systems, assembly and necessary hardware is another gain in the process. With a large number of small and medium enterprises and even large corporates participating in the programmes, the creation of industrial infrastructure will be a big differentiator in the future for defence production.

With the country setting aside huge budgets on defence, the mega projects and the defence offsets that they carry point to big opportunities to the domestic industry.

Public sector companies such as Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL), Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), have created infrastructure and facilities to manufacture missiles and critical electronics systems to the demands of the defence forces.

As they say, there is no greater draw than success. The super performance of Agni V today could open the doors for both Indian industry and draw people to take up challenging tasks in research and development in strategic sectors.

(This article was published on April 19, 2012)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Apr 2012 03:38

Care must be taken on changing games. As dr. saraswat says, we should focus on detterence mantra [mission-vision-strategy].

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2012 03:44

The Hindu is on a roll.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 332948.ece

A giant leap for India
Y. Mallikarjun
T. S. Subramanian


From a single-stage, liquid-propelled, surface-to-surface Prithvi missile with a 150-km range, which was first launched in 1988, to a three-stage Agni-V that can take out targets 5,000 km away, it has been a “giant leap” for India in less than 25 years.

Agni-V, with all its three stages powered by solid propellants, is a “game-changer” for India in its missile technology capability.

Prithvi was the first of the missiles developed under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP), which was initiated in 1983 and wound up in 2007 after most of its objectives were met. However, the path to indigenous development from Prithvi to Agni-V was not smooth, as India had to overcome technology-denial regimes.

After the successful launch of Prithvi-1 in February 1988 and Agni in May 1989, the United States and other developed countries imposed technology embargoes on India under the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), adversely affecting the availability of electronic devices such as computer processor chips, radio frequency devices, electro-hydraulic components, maraging steel and composite materials such as carbon fibre.

V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, had earlier told The Hindu/Frontline: “This is a very short list. The list runs into hundreds of components and materials.”

Undeterred, the DRDO embarked on a massive programme to overcome denial of scores of items. Adopting a consortium approach by roping in many of its laboratories, private industries and universities, the DRDO developed critical components such as phase shifters for phased array radars for the Akash missile; magnesium alloys for Prithvi; and servo-valves, resins and carbon fibres for re-entry systems of Agni.

From the first generation anti-tank missiles in the 1960s to Prithvi, Agni, Akash, Trishul and Nag, the DRDO has designed and developed a variety of missiles that could be launched from different platforms, including a canister. The missiles that have been inducted into the armed forces include Prithvi-1, Prithvi-II, anti-ship Dhanush, surface-to-air Akash and surface-to-surface Agni-1 (700 km), Agni-II (2,500 km) and Agni-III (3,500 km).

Among the strategic systems, the Agni missiles form the bulwark of India's nuclear deterrence strategy, which is based on the no-first-use of nuclear weapons policy.

India also realised the need for a Ballistic Missile Defence system in the late 1990s after Pakistan tested the Ghauri missile with a range of more than 900 km with a capability to carry a nuclear warhead weighing one tonne. To protect vital assets in the shortest possible time, a two-layered air defence system was conceived. The very first interceptor missile test was an unalloyed success: an incoming ballistic missile, mimicking the trajectory of an enemy missile, was intercepted and destroyed in exo-atmosphere at an altitude of 48 km in November 2006. The second interceptor test in endo-atmosphere at an altitude of 15 km in December 2007 was also a grand success, validating India's BMD capability.

With supersonic cruise missile BrahMos already inducted into the Army and the Navy, the Akash in the service of the IAF, the nuclear-powered submarine Arihant boasting of K-15 underwater-launched missile, a DRDO missile technologist said: “We have a complete range of missiles to take care of various threats from different quarters.”

The focus of the new generation of missiles is on weight reduction and improvement in velocities with high payload fractions, DRDO sources said.




A5 propels India into ICBM club

Wrong words but chalega.

Today, we have made history. We're a major missile power: V.K. Saraswat

India on Thursday propelled itself into an elite club of nations with Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) technology by successfully test-firing nuclear-capable Agni-V, which covered a range of more than 5,000 km.

The significance of the success lies in the fact that Agni-V is the most formidable missile in India's arsenal, with the longest range. With this grand success, India joins the U.S., Russia, France and China, which have ICBM capability. With India's policy of no-first-use of nuclear weapons, Agni-V will provide the country with depth in deterrence.

India’s key to elite nuclear club (PDF)

In a flawless mission, Agni-V, painted in white and black with an orange ribbon across, lifted off majestically from a rail mobile launcher at 8.04 a.m. from the Wheeler Island, off the Odisha coast. After a 20-minute flight, the missile's nose-cone carrying a dummy payload impacted near the pre-designated target area with an accuracy of few metres between Australia and Madagascar in the Indian Ocean.

After the lift-off, it cut a ballistic path across the sky reaching a height of 600 km, before rapidly descending. The mission was so smooth that the missile's three stages ignited on time and decoupled with clockwork precision before the re-entry vehicle was injected into the atmosphere at an altitude of 100 km with a velocity of 6,000 metres per second. The re-entry vehicle withstood scorching temperatures of about 3,000 degree Celsius as it sliced into the atmosphere at a remarkably accurate angle.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has designed and developed Agni-V. Although DRDO officials claim that Agni-V “is not any country-specific,” the fact remains that the missile can reach most parts of China. The three-stage, 17-metre tall Agni-V, weighing 50 tonnes, is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead of 1.1 tonnes.

During the final, pre-launch moments, there was an air of anxiety and expectation in the Mission Control Room as V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, and other missile technologists sat in front of computer consoles.

Moments after the mission's success, Dr. Saraswat told The Hindu: “Today, we have made history. We are a major missile power.” India was among the select group of countries to have the capability to design, develop, build and manufacture a long-range missile of this class and technological complexity. “The versatile capability of this missile will enable India to leapfrog into areas of Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicles (MIRVs), anti-satellite weapons and the capability to launch satellites on demand. This will usher in a new era of missile development in India,” he asserted.

“Fantastic mission”

Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, and Programme Director, Agni-V, called it a “fantastic mission, which has achieved a range of more than 5,000 km.” The success gave India the confidence to go ahead with a larger number of missiles and longer ranges, he added.

V.G. Sekaran, Director, Advanced Systems Laboratory, Hyderabad, described the success as “overwhelming.”



TSR and YM say its 6km/sec re-entry velocity but at 100km height. Usually its at 150km (~450k feet). So Rajat Pandit is also right claiming that its 7km/sec at re-entry which is 50km higher.

Again confirms ICBM velocities were achieved with the 1.1 tonne payload. The remarkable angle means that its high beta body which did not deviate during re-entry and the accuracy of few meters means that the guidance package was very accurate for that range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 20 Apr 2012 03:56

Indian media reporting on Agni-V test provocative: China
Published: Thursday, Apr 19, 2012, 15:07 IST
By KJM Varma | Place: Beijing, New Delhi | Agency: PTI


Reacting cautiously to India's test of Agni-V missile, China on Thursday said the two countries are not rivals and enjoy "sound" relations though the sources in the Chinese establishment feel that the launch can give rise to another round of arms race in the region.

"China has taken note of reports on India's missile launch. The two countries have sound relationship.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2012 04:03

Acharya wrote:
Indian media reporting on Agni-V test provocative: ChinaPublished: Thursday, Apr 19, 2012, 15:07 IST
By KJM Varma | Place: Beijing, New Delhi | Agency: PTI


Reacting cautiously to India's test of Agni-V missile, China on Thursday said the two countries are not rivals and enjoy "sound" relations though the sources in the Chinese establishment feel that the launch can give rise to another round of arms race in the region.

"China has taken note of reports on India's missile launch. The two countries have sound relationship.



I too did say this that it was Indian media reporting that was uncalled for. Uday Bhaskar ji too said the same.
I also say A5 makes the countries continue to have a sound relationship.

And once people realize what TSR &YM in Hindu and RP in TOI have reported about the terminal velocity will make other countries too join in the sound relationship.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 20 Apr 2012 04:13

It has taken India much longer than China to develop weapons of this capability. It however is an achievement non the less. Also it is unlikely that India managed to steal U.S nuclear secrets like the PLA so the delay is understandable. Hopefully will mean MAD will be in effect.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2012 04:27

For that to take effect needs change in govt.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 20 Apr 2012 04:37

The missile is no threat to any country, its a technological demostration. when China tested dong Feng, none from India raised any voice.
On the other hand, its one benfit that can and will definitely come for India is-- a bit more domination in the border talks...nowadays, everyhting is used to pressurise.. whether trade, diplomacy..etc. therefore, the missile will not attack anyone (no country can afford to fight in today's so fragile economic scenario as the world is conencted) but yes, it is for sure that it will give an edge to India to talk at par with China on many fronts.
China is India's biggest trading partner and our business is growing day by day (running into billions now). the recent BRICS summit has already given jerks to US, as India, China and Russia are coming together and have decided to trade in their currencies only.

On the other hand, to increase faith, China must end up the childish Pakistan pampering games as it will not give them anything except losing the faith and confidence of a normal Indian. Pakistan is a failed state and need some big hand, to survive. Anyone, who decides to go with a sinking ship will also sink. India& China have a wonderful future ahead and both nations are prospering day by day. We should work in more harmony and closest ever cooperation and defeat the ugly designs of US, who really wish that both countries may fight again... thereby destroying their immense growth which they have made.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 20 Apr 2012 04:37

ramana wrote:For that to take effect needs change in govt.

Change means testing? :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23229 » 20 Apr 2012 04:42

How come every ignorant fool posting on that sky website thinks that India runs on UK aid? I guess it doesnt hurt us when a lot of underestimation is continuing about our skills and capabilities.
The day when our ARIHANT shows up on British coast with Sagarikas loaded, may be then their bubble will burst. 8) 8) 8)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Suraj » 20 Apr 2012 04:44

Some thoughts: The A-V didn't have the vented interstage between first and second stages, that A-III had. In fact, eyeballing the pics on the railway carriage TEL makes the A-V look slightler shorter than A-III . Prior to the first pics, theoretical art suggested A-V would have vented interstages between 1-2 and 2-3 stages, which looked clumsy, compared to the actual thing, which was much more compact. A-V therefore proofed more stage-separation technologies that they didn't deal with in A-III, and the A-III may therefore be an intermediate step, with actual operationalization restricted to multiple variants of A-I, A-IV and variants of A-V - this single MARV version, a MIRV one and the K-4 SLBM.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 20 Apr 2012 04:48

A great achievement indeed. Beijing is left to declare "Indian media" as "provocative". They did not expect this test to be successful.

On another note, I worry we (I am talking media not BRF) are publicizing individuals. I realize these individuals deserve kudos but it is bad security policy. Who knows the name of one US scientist at Livermore, or at Boeing? Name one person in China, France or the UK at the level of the DRDO people whose names are bandied about on NDTV.

Anyone old enough to remember Homi Bhabha?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2012 04:53

Suraj, The key enabler was the A4(aka AIIS) where the non-vented stage separation was proofed. BTW did you get the drift about inducting in one years after two more tests. This means that production quality components were used and all these are flight qualified now.

Cosmo_R, India needs new tech heroes after all the scams etc.
In Bhabha days, IB was sleeping orgnaization so no security. Its now different.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Suraj » 20 Apr 2012 05:00

Thanks ramana. Yes, I read that part. The Hindu articles also explained why - there's a level of synergy between the lab (DRDO) and production facilities (everything from DMRL to final fabrication at BEL and BDL) that has created a true military industrial complex . For years, the refrain used to be that such an effective military design to production system did not exist in India. Now there is one. I hope the same level of professionalism and project management abilities extends to other military projects as well as PSUs (*cough* OFB)...

Cosmo: I disagree. These people are our pioneers. Everyone from Korolev to Von Braun to Qian Xuesen got publicity. Further, reports indicate that this wasn't created out of the strength of one personality. Once the novelty wears out, there will be no further 'tabloid' press on the topic.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2012 05:01

Folks, 1.1 tonne RV means 1100kg. The book "Lightning Bolts" says maal to vehicle weight ratio is 1/3. Assuming that the technology has remained constant, a conservative weight estimate for Indian maal is ~350kg.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 20 Apr 2012 05:20

How does this compare

http://vimeo.com/34139416
http://vimeo.com/34048202
http://vimeo.com/34055402

DARPA's Falcon HTV-2 can be anywhere in the world in less than 60 minutes.

In this 5th and Final Stage of flight with the Falcon HTV-2 (Part 5 OF 5) the hyper sonic craft will self-terminate it's flight by diving into the ocean.



DARPA’s Falcon HTV-2 Launch Animation RE-ENTRY PHASE
VEHICLE/BOOSTER Separation Re-entry
greginsd.wordpress.com/2011/08/21/test-flight-2-a-success-for-darpas-falcon-htv-2/

Reentry Orientation (VEHICLE/BOOSTER SEPERATION
The HTV-2 separates from the Minotaur Rocket Booster and uses the Reaction Control System (RCS) to orient itself for reentry

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sivab » 20 Apr 2012 05:40

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-9- ... /229830?hp

At 16:08 Dr. Saraswat says it reached MACH 25+

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby lakshmikanth » 20 Apr 2012 05:46

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Fidel, the reaction on Canadian message boards generally follows the parochial "Why condemn North Korea but not India", "They have so many starving people, why don't they do something about that instead" and "India will start a new arms race". Rarely will you see a non-ethnic Indian attempt to empathise with India about its mostly regional concerns, or its *history*. Gosh, imagine a Canadian doing that. One poster on the cbc.ca forum did say something about India countering China and its pit bull North Korea- would be surprised if that fellow is Indian. But that is a rare expression of support. There is also someone called "TheVarun" (LOL) doing his little bit to refute the India=North Korea, India= only starving people idiocy, and clear the air about this test.


Ganapathi Deva wrote:How come every ignorant fool posting on that sky website thinks that India runs on UK aid? I guess it doesnt hurt us when a lot of underestimation is continuing about our skills and capabilities.
The day when our ARIHANT shows up on British coast with Sagarikas loaded, may be then their bubble will burst. 8) 8) 8)


Folks,

I think this was expected. For the tribal western mind which is closed, there is only two modes: Us and Not-Us. All the Not-Us are the same, be it NoKo, SDRE Indians, eye-ran etc. The Us have no empathy for the Not-Us. It is a result of lack of intellectual honesty or intellectual laziness.

That is the reason why when we test and when NoKo test, they treat is as a threat to them. The Not-Us are threatening Us. How dare the Not-Us do that? We i.e. Us ruled over them, they take our aid and develop ICBMs, while the "US" here are made to look like binge drinking bloody idiots?

There is nothing you can do to cure this, its human nature.

If the Bakis have taught me anything its this: People who have no empathy for others, can only respond to fear*! The reason for that is they empathize only for themselves, and so we can only make them understand our point of view by making them afraid of consequences TO THEM. In that respect, the Bakis and the West are in the same boat, probably China as well and was definitely true of Hitler and the Bretards back in the day. Gandhigiri wont work with them. A 500kT A-V would work :)

Don't get angered by what the west thinks. Don't get too happy with what the west thinks too. You are being set up for being an western-approval-seeking missile, like many of our DIE-WKK idiots are. Ignore the west, hold your head high and work hard, and make THEM come to you for your approval :)

** EDIT: People who have no empathy to you can also respond to praise and bootlicking. It tells them that you (from the Not-Us tribe) have accepted them as superior, and therefore you will be rewarded greatly, like Thapar (of the Romilla and Karan kinds), Ramachandra Gooo(k)ha, Sagarika Goose, the Fai associates other DIE and WKK clowns.

*** EDIT LATER: However if you indicate that you do not consider them superior or consider them as equal:-- the punishment can be assured to be swift and merciless. What India and Indians should do is to increase the cost of imposing punishment on us so high, that they get wet undies, brown shalwars on just imagining the end result. A-V achieves that, to a degree. Of course we have a long long way to go.
Last edited by lakshmikanth on 20 Apr 2012 06:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kasthuri » 20 Apr 2012 05:54

sivab wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-9-oclock-news/agni-v-launch-a-strategic-milestone/229830?hp

At 16:08 Dr. Saraswat says it reached MACH 25+


From Wiki: Mach number

For comparison: the required speed for low Earth orbit is approximately 7.5 km/s = Mach 25.4 in air at high altitudes.


Given that A5 is designed to shoot satellites, M25 looks realistic.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Arav » 20 Apr 2012 06:25

After the fireworks, time for some diplomacy

Post-Agni V, it is important to ensure that the mistrust between New Delhi and Beijing does not deteriorate into strategic rivalry.

The successful test launch of the Agni V intercontinental ballistic missile takes India a step closer to mutual nuclear deterrence with China. But only diplomacy can make that relationship a stable one.

New Delhi's missile development is understandable, given its strategic situation. But the timing of the launch — hot on the heels of the North Korea rocket failure — has put India's friends in an awkward spot. The United States, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), Australia and others who generally wish India well in its strategic rise are being compelled openly to acknowledge that some countries' strategic missile tests are much more acceptable than others.

The fact is a stable deterrent relationship between India and China is in the interest of most nations.

The problem is, much needs to be done to ensure that the current state of competitive coexistence between the two rising Asian giants does not deteriorate into one of strategic rivalry.

On the surface at least, India-China relations have seen a turn for the better in the past few months. The two countries have not only declared their intention to build a stronger bilateral relationship, but have also backed up their words with initiatives, including a dialogue on maritime security.

Disquiet persists

But deeper mistrust lingers. The enduring border dispute and the legacy of the 1962 war constitute one driver of this. But each country has also built stronger security relations with the other's primary potential adversary.

India's relations with the U.S. worry Beijing, if not quite as fundamentally as China's history of military, missile and nuclear assistance to Pakistan troubles New Delhi. India fears what it sees as the encircling potential of China's growing role and interest in the Indian Ocean, while China remains anxious about the way Indian policy and Tibetan activism might interact on the border issue.

This volatile mix is compounded by military modernisation in both countries, competition for resources and influence in third countries, and competition within multilateral institutions. And sensationalised media reporting both stokes and reflects unfriendly public opinion across the Himalayan border.

Solutions are essential

Solutions to these tensions demand difficult political and strategic concessions that neither country appears willing to make at this point. But the two countries will need to find a solution to avoid dangerous and unpredictable crises in the future, sparked by, for example, an incident at sea or miscalculations over Tibet.

This is not to suggest that nuclear-tinged confrontation is likely between Asia's two mega-states any time soon. The imperatives in New Delhi and Beijing to maintain a stable external environment for economic development are strong. But neither power's strategic establishment believes in peace at all costs.

India presently sees a much greater threat from China than vice-versa. China's military capabilities are designed in large part to expand Beijing's options against the U.S., even though they clearly have a mission to deter New Delhi as well.

India, on the other hand, is increasingly updating its forces with China specifically in mind, as the Agni V test demonstrates. India has at times openly described China's nuclear arsenal as a threat, and proposed confidence-building steps such as a bilateral No First Use pact. But China refuses to talk to India about its nuclear weapons in any dimension other than the question of their status under the Non-Proliferation Treaty. This position is neither sustainable nor conducive to stable nuclear relations.

Just as the U.S. and China need to build a strategic stability dialogue that recognises a degree of mutual vulnerability, so too will China and India need to develop a stabilising nuclear dialogue of their own. The ranges of nuclear-tipped missiles deployed in China's western provinces are such that their only plausible targets are Indian cities. But the development of Indian missile and submarine capabilities has a way to go before it can credibly deter China.

Global impact

There are also wider questions about the global impact of an India-China nuclear competition. India-China dynamics could become entangled with the India-Pakistan and China-U.S. nuclear relationships, in a cascade of security dilemmas that is making the vision of global nuclear disarmament ever more distant.

In the end, only New Delhi and Beijing have the ability or the right to address their bilateral nuclear challenge. What is clear, though, is that a big part of the answer must lie in dialogue. The unofficial bilateral dialogues on nuclear issues that have sprung up in recent years are a step in the right direction, but an official nuclear dialogue is needed if real progress is to be made.

The leaders of both countries last year acknowledged a need to respect each nation's central interests. This could provide the grounding of mutual respect for a wide-ranging strategic stability dialogue to begin. Such talks might involve Indian acknowledgement of China's legitimate interest in secure sea lanes in the Indian Ocean, while China would need to finally face the inevitable and recognise the reality of India as a nuclear-armed state. India-China relations would also benefit from Beijing moving to treat good relations with India as being more important than those it has with Pakistan.

A China-India nuclear dialogue could aim to reassure China and India about each other's intentions, the nature and purpose of nuclear and missile defence programmes, and nuclear policies and doctrines. The two countries need to discuss conflict “red lines” and crisis management, as well as to set up operational communication mechanisms at multiple levels to prevent conflict or escalation. The much-touted leaders' hotline needs to be operationalised.

Denying the existence of a problem can become a big part of the problem. Now that New Delhi has underscored its indigenous technological capacity to build a workable deterrent against China, it is time for a show of diplomatic ingenuity too.

(Rory Medcalf is Director of the International Security Program at the Lowy Institute for International Policy, Sydney. Fiona Cunningham is a Research Associate at the Lowy Institute.)



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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Fidel Guevara » 20 Apr 2012 06:48

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Fidel, the reaction on Canadian message boards generally follows the parochial "Why condemn North Korea but not India", "They have so many starving people, why don't they do something about that instead" and "India will start a new arms race". Rarely will you see a non-ethnic Indian attempt to empathise with India about its mostly regional concerns, or its *history*. Gosh, imagine a Canadian doing that. One poster on the cbc.ca forum did say something about India countering China and its pit bull North Korea- would be surprised if that fellow is Indian. But that is a rare expression of support. There is also someone called "TheVarun" (LOL) doing his little bit to refute the India=North Korea, India= only starving people idiocy, and clear the air about this test.


There is also a very knowledgeable fellow called "varun xm" on the Globe & Mail. I'm certain he's a BRFite...hint hint.

Canada public opinion is limited to

1) "India = NoKo = EyeRan", nothing personal, just for lack of any knowledge to the contrary...need more Visit India advertising in Canada. Those who have visited India or know somebody who has visited, have a much more nuanced view.

2) "India stole CANDU secrets to make nukes", surprisingly this has reached into the mainstream consciousness of educated people...need to be approached one-on-one to correct this misconception.

3) "India has one zillion quintillion starving people"...CBC is not much better than BBC in showing the same face of India. Slowly changing though, through regular "letters to the editors" from like-minded people.

10 years ago, Canadians thought of India=China=huge 3rd world countries. Now, China has graduated (in mainstream consciousness), it is now China=Russia=scary threat. Given more such missile tests, in a few years India would also be up there. Though I would personally want to see India=Japan=powerful friendly Asian countries.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Apr 2012 07:08

Acharya wrote:It has taken India much longer than China to develop weapons of this capability. It however is an achievement non the less. Also it is unlikely that India managed to steal U.S nuclear secrets like the PLA so the delay is understandable. Hopefully will mean MAD will be in effect.

We can still keep it NFU-Erasure mode at deployment.. in the sense, when we detect a launch [that is the next big thing we need to expand on.. we should be able to detect any type of launch anywhere in the hemisphere.], we qualify for second strike, and while we engage our ABMs, MAD-RAIN take effect.

Yes, we need a new gov., and change in our policies. We need policy driven gov and democracy as well...can't depend on the aging buddas anymore.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Apr 2012 07:18

gratifying to know the Mach25 speed. being a marv/bgrv like the topol-M RV, it can likely do S-shaped moves in the horizontal and vertical plane or any combination thereof to complicate interception. spending a lot of time in depressed trajectory and then unleashing a marv/bgrv seems to be the hottest trend in ICBM design and its good we have jumped into it.

meantime Soko says it has tested and deployed a 1000km range Thawk looking cruise missile and pics also showed a iskander type tactical BM being launched from a box shaped cansister.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/stor ... 54411090/1
I think they were planning to deploy this CM off their KDX DDG as well.

so far the international media has not caught on to what the 500km apogee of a A5 size missile means and why its not the usual 1200km.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 20 Apr 2012 07:26

Fidel Guevara wrote:
Altair wrote:I actually love to have missiles aimed at Pakistan to have Female names.
For Chinese I would like to call A-5 "The Lama".
Just for kicks :lol:
Tessy for Pakistan specific missiles would wreck havoc in Pindi.


How about Genghis? Sure will wake up the pandas! All the connotations of merciless destruction, and total impotence of the Great Wall...!

Actally I was thinking 'Thomas the ICBM' to respect our science lady :). But I think Tessy sounds more connected. What do you say?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kartik » 20 Apr 2012 07:27

Fidel Guevara wrote:There is also a very knowledgeable fellow called "varun xm" on the Globe & Mail. I'm certain he's a BRFite...hint hint.

Canada public opinion is limited to

1) "India = NoKo = EyeRan", nothing personal, just for lack of any knowledge to the contrary...need more Visit India advertising in Canada. Those who have visited India or know somebody who has visited, have a much more nuanced view.

2) "India stole CANDU secrets to make nukes", surprisingly this has reached into the mainstream consciousness of educated people...need to be approached one-on-one to correct this misconception.

3) "India has one zillion quintillion starving people"...CBC is not much better than BBC in showing the same face of India. Slowly changing though, through regular "letters to the editors" from like-minded people.

10 years ago, Canadians thought of India=China=huge 3rd world countries. Now, China has graduated (in mainstream consciousness), it is now China=Russia=scary threat. Given more such missile tests, in a few years India would also be up there. Though I would personally want to see India=Japan=powerful friendly Asian countries.


Frankly speaking, who in India gives a flying rat's a** about what Canadians think about India? They're of no consequence to India in any form whatsoever except for their large Indian expat diaspora.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tejas » 20 Apr 2012 07:28

The barrage of comments in the Toronto paper disparaging India's poor and the Canadian "aid" India gets was nauseating. The thing that bothers me the most is essentially all of India's problems are man made. The market distorting idiocy of the Kangress economic policies along with gov't ownership of so many industries and the stagnation and mediocrity that go with it are debilitating. India's growth rate could easily be in the double digits without these handicaps. Power and labor policies are crippling industry.

How safe is any missile system in India if the chips in it are foreign? Relying on the GOI to manufacture chips is a joke. I hope to live long enough to see a true market economy in India as this will allow economic growth and sustainable development of a high tech MIC, something that will NEVER happen with gov't owned monopolies. Then, finally these condescending aholes can be told where to shove thetr comments. Sorry for the rant. I just read a Reuters article about how constant blackouts were hampering industrial growth in TN and I was furious.


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