Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Kanson]

With regard to the K series, whats the rationale behind development of K-5 when K-4 itself can have all the tech absorption of A4 and A5?

Also is the A6 slated to have the ogival nose-cone, making it a pure MIRV? Again why officially limit it to 6K range when we have already proofed that range with the latest success?

First we need to understand few things on ranges mentioned for Ballistic or any other missile.

1. Potential range:

This is deduced by observation or through theoretical calculations.

2. Realizable range:

Due to excellence in Engineering and Design or its shortcomings, the range realizable could be more or less than theoretically calculated range. Addition of Aero Spike to Trident increased its range several fold compared to contemporary missiles.

3. Working range:

Again this is results in the shortcomings in Engineering and Design. Though it can realize a higher range, some of its vital parameters may not be satisfactory at that range. Ex., Uncontrollable vibration at higher speeds. So its range is reduced to such where it enjoys higher confidence level.

4. Declared range:

This is the official stated position. Obviously it is less than Working range as from Security point of view it is not desirable to reveal exact details of your strategic weapon. But if the missile system is marketed, in many cases, declared range is the Realizable range. Actual performance is poorer than the declared range.

--------------

2 & 3, Only insiders know. 1 is what many analysts from foreign media or local think it range could be. 4 Is the official known position repeated by everyone.

If any, it is only officially limited to whatever range due to political consideration of not unnecessarily provocative where by such declaration we loose more than we gain, politically. So whatever be the official line, it doesn't dent our preparedness.

[mody]

In today's TOI, chinese experts are quoted as warning that the range for A-V given by india is incorrect and that the missile would have a range of atleast 8,000 Kms.
The inference is that it can hit most of Europe as well and hence the US and Russia should not sell guidance related products to India.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 752380.cms

[vasu_ray]

Based on what the retired Admiral said immediately after the test, the SLBM track and the Agni track will need to merge, most likely there will be a larger dia missile common for both land and sub-launch?

beyond that rather than a manifested ICBM, we should improve the throw weight, a solid fueled SLV placing more weight in space while catching up with the PSLV and the Launch on Demand constraint placed on it

Hopefully one would see the Agni derived SLV variant sea launched from the refurbed Viraat in the next few years

The way AAD can be mass produced by the way of assigning newer roles such as Prahaar, would it be feasible to create Agni based SLV variants? for one that variant should be less costly than a PSLV and the turn around time would be very low

ISRO should move on to GSLV by that time

[koti]

^@mody
That is only to stir up some concern in the minds of the European nations regarding A5...
I smell something is burning due to the world communities biased response towards A5...

[Kanson]

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2012/04/ma ... t-all.html

We want to develop intelligent missiles with highly-accurate warheads for future. Missiles that could counter an incoming missile, by predicting its trajectory is the key,” Avinash said.

Pls allow me to share an echo to Avinash statement on intelligent missiles that we planning to develop.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1179495

You must have heard that Brahmos missile has its own ECCM gear. What is not much publicized is that every missile(* conditions apply) whether Ballistic or Cruise in our arsenal has its own Situational awareness and EW gear. It selects its path in such a way to give least possible RCS. In short, technically, we should call our Ballistic/Cruise missile as Exceptionally Ultra Long Range SAM. Because it behaves like one.

[mody]

It also shows that now the Chinese are worried about the Agni V. Even the Agni 3 and Agni 4 under reported their ranges. It is obvious that A-III would have a range of about 5,000 Kms. However, the chinese did not find it worthwhile to say what was obvious to atleast the experts.

But this time around, they have explicitly stated that Indians are under reporting the range. It is also a way to berate the Western powers for not censuring India for the missile launch. Hence by putting out such reports they are giving ammunition to non-proliferation lobby in the western media to put pressure on their governments to not go on with business as usual with India and put some curbs about trade in High Technology items.

[Prem]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17781281
The 'missile woman' behind India's new ICBM

The media loves calling her Missile Woman - and with good reason.
Tessy Thomas, a scientist from India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), is a rare woman who has played a key role in the making of its most potent long-range nuclear-capable ballistic missile, the Agni-V, which was successfully tested on Thursday.She is thought to be one of the very few women working on strategic nuclear ballistic missiles in the world.In the male-dominated world of the country's highly secretive missile development programme, Ms Thomas, 49, has stood out ever since she joined the DRDO in 1988.But the charismatic scientist says she has never faced any anti-female bias at her workplace."There is no gender discrimination in technology. If your work is good it automatically stands out. I have never faced any discrimination ever in my workplace," she says.Ms Thomas, a Roman Catholic, was born to a small-businessman father and a homemaker mother in Alleppey in southern Kerala state.She grew up near a rocket launching station and says her fascination with rockets and missiles began then.After finishing school and college in Kerala, she left the state for the first time at the age of 20 to pursue a masters degree in guided missiles in the western Indian city of Pune. It was there she met her future husband, Saroj Kumar, now a commodore in the Indian navy.Ms Thomas says she was named after Mother Teresa, the late Nobel laureate who worked with the poor in Calcutta.'Weapons of peace'
So how does she feel about about working on some of the most powerful weapons of mass destruction?
Ms Thomas says she is developing "what are really weapons of peace".What has been infinitely more difficult, she says, is juggling work and family.At times, she says, she is torn between her loyalties to the missile programme and her family responsibilities.It has helped immensely, she believes, that she has had immense support from her husband and son, Tejas, an engineering student who shares his name with India's indigenously developed light combat aircraft, also made by the DRDO.In a glowing tribute in 2008, The Indian Woman Scientists Association did not forget to mention that "like most women she also does a tight-rope walk between home and career, between being a mother and a scientist who is dedicated to her job.

[pankajs]

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2012/04/ma ... t-all.html

We want to develop intelligent missiles with highly-accurate warheads for future. Missiles that could counter an incoming missile, by predicting its trajectory is the key,” Avinash said.

Pls allow me to share an echo to Avinash statement on intelligent missiles that we planning to develop.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1179495

You must have heard that Brahmos missile has its own ECCM gear. What is not much publicized is that every missile(* conditions apply) whether Ballistic or Cruise in our arsenal has its own Situational awareness and EW gear. It selects its path in such a way to give least possible RCS. In short, technically, we should call our Ballistic/Cruise missile as Exceptionally Ultra Long Range SAM. Because it behaves like one.

So future would look a lot like the scenes from old Ramayana(DD) arrows neutralized each other near their apogee.

[ramana]

Kanson, I really don't know what your point is? Why this obtuseness? Please state what you want. And will be glad to know and learn.

My point is that A5 third stage requires a new guidance and control which was not there earlier. Yes the modules or code could be similar to earlier stages but till its simulated and flight proofed its always touch and go even for advanced nations. And hence this one is an achievement.

[pankajs]

Wouldn't there be one guidance and control package for all the 3 stages? MaRV may have a seperate one perhaps.

Also, the time between A4 and A5 shot appears to be small for a new package development. I think it is the one proofed on A4. My opinion only for whatever it is worth.

[svinayak]

The Cabinet sanction for Agni V was accorded in December 2008. The government set a time frame of four years for the missile. The first flight happened within that time frame.


This is clearly after 2008 Nov Mumbai attack. PRC must have moved its troops to the border and tried some blackmail to keep Indian military occupied during that period. Also news report talks about Chinese media making fun of India being attacked and Indians being killed.

Looks like Indian govt to make sure that this will never happen , have ordered in 2008 the ICBM called as China Killer to be developed .

[member_22906]

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/04/n ... ramme.html

Addressing a press conference in New Delhi, Saraswat said, “Our development needs are based upon today’s threats, and also evolving threats…. So there is no question of capping any programme…. Today, in a short time, we have gone from Agni-4 (launched in Nov 11) to Agni-5, Obviously we have a threat profile which is evolving and I am not sure it will ever remain static. So we are going to continue to develop missiles to meet our future threats.”


The first big enhancement to the successful Agni-5 will involve creating the capability of hitting several different enemy targets with multiple warheads on a single missile. This technology, called multiple, independently targetable, re-entry vehicles (MIRVs) is already being developed by the DRDO.

“The primary modules of MIRV are in an advanced stage of development. Realization and integration of them into a weapon is just a question of threat perceptions and the need as it arises,” said Chander.


Saraswat laid down a two-year time line for the Agni-5 to enter operational service. We will do two more validation tests, which should take about 1½ years. After that, we will begin production (of the Agni-5) and we will start handing it over to the military. Once they have it, they will do some launches for their training as well. This will take about two years.”

[jamwal]

Official launch video of Agni 2 as released by DRDO, posting again after fixing audio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGIHketiB7M
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGIHketiB7M[/youtube]

[pankajs]

Looks like Indian govt to make sure that this will never happen , have ordered in 2008 the ICBM called as China Killer to be developed .

Saar I think we should not call it the 'China killer' on BRF. We have warm and cordial relation with China and in recognition of this relationship A5/6/7 should be called the flower mail or something similar.

We have much to learn from China and from its 'Peaceful Rise'.

[Don]

China Laughs at India's 'Dwarf' Missile

http://news.yahoo.com/china-laughs-indi ... 45437.html

In China, Size Matters

This week, China's regional foe India successfully launched a missile capable of striking deep within China's territory. China's media couldn't let India bask in its rocket glory so its state-run newspapers began bashing the Agni-V missile, calling it a "dwarf" when compared to China's own missiles. "India should not overestimate its strength," read an editorial in the state-run English language newspaper Global Times. "For the foreseeable future, India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with China." An April 20 editorial in the state-run Huanqiu Shibao newspaper mocked India's "backwardness" and said its missile program was merely in "early childhood." Then there's the Communist Party organ Renmin Wang, which said the country's "very serious" social problems were preventing the country from attaining its "cherished... dream of becoming a major power." The Middling Kingdom doth protest too much!

[ramana]

The Chinese are truly turning Paki. Thats what victimhood syndrome does. They have to promote fear of the other.

[pankajs]

China Laughs at India's 'Dwarf' Missile

I do not know whether to laugh or cry at this!

One one hand China laughs at our 'dwarf' missile and on the other hand it tries to scare the Europeans, who are much further away, talking about the very same 'dwarf' missile.

It can happen only in China & Pakistan! (Added Pakistan after being reminded by Ramana Saar)

[pankajs]

The Chinese are truly turning Paki. Thats what victimhood syndrome does. They have to promote fear of the other.

Well said! Like a true paki they are speaking from both ends.

[lakshmikanth]

^^^^ I think we have spoken to them in the only language they understand. I hope there will be much more of such talk from us.

[Gus]

we should come up with a 5 stages of grief for China..disbelief/skeptical , malicious lying to influence 3rd parties, superciliousness, derision...and finally silence?

[koti]

China Laughs at India's 'Dwarf' Missile

http://news.yahoo.com/china-laughs-indi ... 45437.html

In China, Size Matters

This week, China's regional foe India successfully launched a missile capable of striking deep within China's territory. China's media couldn't let India bask in its rocket glory so its state-run newspapers began bashing the Agni-V missile, calling it a "dwarf" when compared to China's own missiles. ".......

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”..Mahatma Gandhi

[ramana]

Gus, It could lead to troubles between the PLA faction that pushes proliferation and the other segments in PRC that might want to rise peacefully.

It was the PLA faction that pushed for 1962 perfidy, the transfer of nukes and missiles to TSP. Now the PRC is facing a real and credible threat from India.

With a slew of missiles, India can act and not just think twice as earlier.

Surya there are other synonyms for Sun!

[anishns]

China Laughs at India's 'Dwarf' Missile

In your hurry to post this article you didn't even notice that the article is actually mocking you
Read the last line "The Middling Kingdom doth protest too much! "

From the same link:

Communist Newspaper Is a Capitalist Success

The People's Daily has been the Chinese Communist Party's newspaper since 1948. It's so pinko commie the calligraphic title is a copy of Mao Zedong's original handwriting. That's why last week, we tipped you off that it was going public and now, it turns out, it's a total capitalist success story. "The listed company will have an initial market capitalization of $872 million, not far behind the $954 million value of the New York Times Co.," reports Bloomberg BusinessWeek's Dexter Roberts. The communist publication apparently went public so it could raise capital for investments in its technology including its mobile platform. As BusinessWeek's Roberts puts it: "Mao Zedong may be tossing in his mausoleum."

But, you are always welcome here 50 cent comrade

The 50 Cent Party

The 50 Cent Party are Internet commentators (网络评论员) hired by the government of the People's Republic of China (both local and central) or the Communist Party to post comments favorable towards party policies in an attempt to shape and sway public opinion on various Internet message boards.[1][2] The commentators are said to be paid for every post that either steers a discussion away from anti-party or sensitive content on domestic websites, bulletin board systems, and chatrooms,[3] or that advances the Communist party line.

[nawabs]

On a par with China, India didn't inform neighbour about launch

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ch/472152/

India did not formally inform China about the launch of its intermediate-range ballistic missile Agni-5 from the Odisha coast yesterday, although it did notify all the other big powers about the event. According to government officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, China was the only permanent member of the UN Security Council that Delhi did not speak to about the launch.

In fact, in the wake of the highly successful test that makes India the only developing country on a par with other missile powers like the US, China, Russia and France, and brings most of China under its radar, the ministry of external affairs continues to deliberately down-play the event. The Agni-V launch finds no mention at all on its website.

The officials pointed out that a general notice to marine traffic (NOTAM) had been issued and certainly with the Indian media widely talking about it, “there was nothing secret about the launch of the Agni-5.”


Delhi’s refusal to beat its chest is part of its recent pragmatic approach to foreign and security affairs, borrowed from the Deng Xiaoping school of thought, that it should keep its head down while pursuing a goal of making India a country to be reckoned with, which includes the maintenance of high economic growth.

According to Srikanth Kondapalli, professor of Chinese studies at the Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi, “Even if you have hundreds of Agni-5 missiles, the fact is that a nuclear weapon is a political weapon, it is a deterrent, it is never going to be used. However, the successful launch of the missile demonstrates to the Chinese that if you cross the red lines, India will have to think twice.”

That is why, government officials said, Delhi would continue to engage with the Chinese government as if it were business as usual. “The Chinese respect strength. We are not here to poke each other in the eye, but to continue to engage as equals,” one official said.

The officials, who said they were happy that missile man and Defence Research and Development Organisation chief V K Saraswat had been much more restrained in his reactions this time, noted he had said the Agni-5 needed a couple of more validation tests.

Over the next three months, Indian and Chinese officials and experts will meet on three occasions to talk about diverse issues, from a conversation on trans-border rivers and consular matters, as well as a maritime dialogue in which everything from deep sea mining to keeping the Indian Ocean lanes secure and free for trade traffic.

The decision to keep the Chinese engaged flows from the highest echelons, from none other than National Security Adviser Shivshanker Menon, former foreign secretary and China hand. At the same time, Delhi has decided to ramp up its engagement with the US and Japan, both powers keenly interested in the rise of the East Asian power.

Only a few days ago, US pointperson on China Kurt Campbell concluded a dialogue on East Asia with his Indian counterpart in the MEA, Gautam Bambawale. Both sides discussed a range of issues from Myanmar to the failed North Korean missile test to the transition of power in Beijing this year.

The US, of course, describes its interest in Asia as a “strategic pivot,” while India, much more reticent, prefers the ‘Look East’ umbrella designation.

Besides the East Asia dialogue, now in its fifth round and having lasted more than two years, and in which officials from the ministry of defence, as well as the National Security Council Secretariat participate, the deepening India-US engagement can be seen in the upcoming trialogue with Japan, slated for next week in Tokyo.

No wonder US State Department spokesperson Mark Toner said he wasn’t surprised by India’s Agni-5 test launch, admitting the US had known beforehand. India has a solid non-proliferation record, Toner added, and engages with the international community on non-proliferation issues, in what amounted to a thinly-veiled endorsement of India’s missile test.

Russia’s Pravda newspaper, once the official organ of the state but now privately owned, noted that India was now ‘capable of striking Beijing and Shanghai,’ while Germany’s Deutsche Welle news-site described the Indian military as making “strategic strides.”

[SagarAg]

Did anyone figured out this mysterious image from the tribune

Is it graphical image or real or dummy model for Republic parade purpose
Or is it A5-02

[koti]

I think it is of A3..
However the section under the payload seems to be cut from else where ant put in place.

[Austin]

Can show anti-satellite capability if govt gives nod: DRDO chief

“An anti-satellite system requires a good boost capability. Something like 800 km (into space). If you can reach that and have the guiding capabilities it can be done. The Agni V has demonstrated the boost capability,” Saraswat said, adding that a kill vehicle could be attached to the missile to target a satellite.

He elaborated that India has already demonstrated that it has the guidance capability required through its series of anti ballistic missile tests that have been carried out over the past few years.

[Austin]

Saraswat in an interview yesterday spoke about SLBM missile with 2.4 m diameter , that i suppose is the final SLBM with 8000 km plus range

[Kersi D]

In today's TOI, chinese experts are quoted as warning that the range for A-V given by india is incorrect and that the missile would have a range of atleast 8,000 Kms.
The inference is that it can hit most of Europe as well and hence the US and Russia should not sell guidance related products to India.

One inference is that CHNI has taken AV very seriously

Another inference is that Chini is trying to create a rift between India Urope

[Kersi D]

The Chinese are truly turning Paki. Thats what victimhood syndrome does. They have to promote fear of the other.

Well said! Like a true paki they are speaking from both ends.

They are making noise form BOTH ends

[SagarAg]

I have never seen China in the awe of any Indian missile test before Tessy. And this is only the beginning of Tessy's diverse capabilities which will be successfully tested in future.

[svinayak]

One inference is that CHNI has taken AV very seriously

Another inference is that Chini is trying to create a rift between India Urope

Also US took some time to comment on the ICBM test. This was read mostly by PRC that test and ICBM is being endrosed by US. PRC making appeal to Europe to take notice. But none of the other P5 are bothered showing that they will not stop India from gate crashing the P club!
This has disturbed PRC very much more than just the ICBM test.

[Amitabh]

Speculation that China is "worried" about Agni V is IMO overdone. The Chinese government is as able to read the Indian media, BR forum and ArunS as you or I and they have been fully aware that a 5,000-km range missile is on the anvil. Unless they are idiots, and there is no reason to believe that, they have been aware for decades that India's goal is to attain strategic parity by covering major Chinese cities with nuclear-tipped missiles.

Everything else is noise and/or signalling. Mostly aimed at a domestic audience in China I would think. NationalistBot countervalue exchanges are enjoyable (for the hyperventilating dozens involved) but are mostly besides the point.

[Philip]

Agony (China) and the Ecstasy (India)!

Chairman Mao used to say that a "loud fart was better than a long speech".The successful launch of A-V,was a "fart" that was heard truly all round the world,and nowhere has it caused so much of heartburn than in the Muddle Kingdom,which as the above post beautifully put it,it "purging" from both ends!

All these decades,ever since '62,the inescapable truth was that militarily,China had an overwhelming superiority in numbers of both men and material in conventional warfare as well as in nuclear capability.Our N-tests of P-1 and even P-2 did not alarm China too much as after P-2,the Chinese supposedly conducted a crash evaluation of the "Indian threat" and found it to be still quite inferior to the Chinese.We had still to perfect our delivery systems that could threaten China.The Chinese cleverly supplied Pak with short and medium ranged ballistic missiles which India was forced to counter and look primarily westwards instead of the greater threat from the east.A close fiend of mine,a former senior naval officer used to say whenever I spoke enthusiastically about the arrival of our N-subs,"all that is fine,ATV,Akula,whatever,but where is the arrow?"

The truth was that we were inferior to the PRC in the key matter of delivery systems.The series of Prithvi and Agni missiles developed thus far did not give us full coverage of the PRC mainland.We lacked long range strategic bombers too.All that China had to do was to move its medium range BMs into Tibet and we had little answer.Even the launch of our ATV,our fledgling SSBM indicated that our reach was in comparison to the PRC's puny.We also seemed to be reluctant to develop true ICBM capability as we always seemed to have a weather eye out for the US of A,not wanting to offend it.China looked down upon us sneeringly with contempt and ridicule whenever an Indian achievement whether it was military or economic was mentioned.

However,on an early summer's morning in Orissa,in the space of just 15 minutes ,the equation changed dramatically.No longer could India's strategic deterrent be termed "inferior" anymore,there was no place anywhere in the territory of the PRC now for the boorish leadership of Zhongnanhai that they could feel safe and out of reach of the "Indian threat"! The leadership of the PRC have been jolted out of their comfy thrones as if by a massive earthquake.The "tsunami" of the full meaning of the success of A-V will inevitably follow,not immediately,but in the fullness of time.India's rise as an equal of China will now be globally acknowledged ,at least in strategic deterrent terms.The world has woken up to the fact the the Indian elephant has blown its trumpet at last in ample measure!

[Suraj]

Their concern is not with the missile. It's the attitude of the other powers that galls them. There's not a single country of any significance that has come out with a condemnatory statement of any kind. Even the Americans sounded about as positive about it as the Russians. The Europeans, through the NATO chief's statement, essentially stated that they don't care. Not a peep from MERCOSUR, ASEAN, Japan or Australia. In fact all the news outlets explicitly stated that the missile targets China.

The clearest statement of rising power is overt accommodation. With this test, we received that. To me, that is the single most important feature of this test. These are actions that we are now expected to do, not things that were 'beyond our standing' which outraged others and resulted in 'know your place' statements like in 1998. That era is over.

[harbans]

An analogy: China has been silently farting in the lift for quite some time. Compare the fart with silently proliferating nukes and missiles to NK/ Pak. It also partially succeeded in getting Pak to point to others in the lift that India was farting and responsible for the smell. Others in the lift were not too sure who was farting. But with the NK TEL saga and other proliferation scandals exposing China..they were becoming less sure if India was the source of the fart.After the A-V test China loudly and firmly pointed that India farted..But with the latest developments in perspective others quietly moved away from China in the lift to show that they now know who has been farting all along..that galls China no end for sure.

[svinayak]

Their concern is not with the missile. It's the attitude of the other powers that galls them. There's not a single country of any significance that has come out with a condemnatory statement of any kind.

My chinese friend called me today. All were trying to find what is in the mind of the people talking about it.
Noticed Chinese ladies outside Jamba Juice became aware of Indians around them.

[koti]

Speculation that China is "worried" about Agni V is IMO overdone. The Chinese government is as able to read the Indian media, BR forum and ArunS as you or I and they have been fully aware that a 5,000-km range missile is on the anvil. Unless they are idiots, and there is no reason to believe that, they have been aware for decades that India's goal is to attain strategic parity by covering major Chinese cities with nuclear-tipped missiles.

Of course they would have.
They would be more comfortable if the test would have failed, or if the accuracy was poorer.... or if the Payload was dumb etc..
The missile was enviable.... comparing and surpassing(some places) to the best of what they can field.
The world over nearly welcomed India into the ICBM club......

Seeing all this, how can the self claimed superior nation hold still when India inches closer and closer to its class?

[Sriman]

Their concern is not with the missile. It's the attitude of the other powers that galls them. There's not a single country of any significance that has come out with a condemnatory statement of any kind. Even the Americans sounded about as positive about it as the Russians. The Europeans, through the NATO chief's statement, essentially stated that they don't care. Not a peep from MERCOSUR, ASEAN, Japan or Australia. In fact all the news outlets explicitly stated that the missile targets China.

The clearest statement of rising power is overt accommodation. With this test, we received that. To me, that is the single most important feature of this test. These are actions that we are now expected to do, not things that were 'beyond our standing' which outraged others and resulted in 'know your place' statements like in 1998. That era is over.

Very astute, superb post.

[krishnan]

Forget all of them...even paki's are quiet...their taller than mountain .... deeper than ocean friend is not concerned about this...he is too busy asking india to vacate siachen