Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Don
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Don »

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... -arms-race

India will need more than a missile

Analysis: Why India's missile launch won't spur an arms race or change the dynamics of power in Asia.
D Roy
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by D Roy »

But of course Farticles must be posted in full by Chicom drones.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

D Roy wrote:But of course Farticles must be posted in full by Chicom drones.
:rotfl:
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by krishnan »

All this even before A-V is canisterized , MIRVed ......


what will happen when we launch the SLBM....the whole asia is gonna stink because someone has soiled their pants
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

krishnan wrote:All this even before A-V is canisterized , MIRVed ......


what will happen when we launch the SLBM....the whole asia is gonna stink because someone has soiled their pants
The East is Yellow :mrgreen:

ok, time for my le-education.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

the nearest major river to Beijing , the Huang he is also known as the Yellow river. and it falls through Bo Hai bay into the Yellow sea.
SaiK
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

I would like to transform this morale booster to other key projects.. especially canceling Kaveri-Snecma deal, and doing it all by ourselves. We have do just re-charter our team dynamics, and enforce reorginization of GTRE.

--

BTW, canisterized not necessarily means mated., but remains possible mated condition. maal can be reconfigured, and all depends on the design for plug and play.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Sid »

If people knows about "Five stages of grief", then that could explain physiological state of Chinese propaganda machine.

It's called Kübler-Ross model, or The Five Stages of Grief. It has following stages.

1 - Denial
2 - Anger
3 - Bargaining
4 - Depression
5 - Acceptance


As far as I can see they are looping in stage 1 and 2.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by uddu »

Its good that they say that India is still far behind China etc etc.
So we need to go for the Agni-VI right?
Any news about that. Is the fully MIRVed A-V with all composite stages called the A-VI? Hope the range increases to 6000 KMs. :D
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by svinayak »

New theories are coming up from our friends

http://paktribune.com/articles/Indian-S ... 42900.html

Indian Strategic Move - Agni Missile –V Test
23 April, 2012

By Zaheerul Hassan
In short, Indian quest for 'Arms purchasing' and development of weapons of Mass destruction is directly threatening regional peace and security of the countries like China, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Nepal. The Indian mindset believes in Maha Bharat concept. Thus she prepared her military doctrine basing on her strategy of becoming initially regional and ultimately a global power. Nuclear era added another dimension to this already bitter saga which pitched Indian against China. United States ticked India as an ally against China. United States role in South Asia always remained questionable because of its ever changing national interests. She did not even feel like condemning India on Agni-V Missile Test since US knows that Maha Bharat concept though covers area of some of western countries but ofcourse does not touch American boundaries. Indian aggressive posture is a real danger to the global peace since all her preparations are apparently connecting to another nuclear war.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Asit P »

'Maha Bharat' concept :rotfl: I guess he was talking about the Akhand Bharat concept.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Asit P »

By the way, there is no dearth of champions in our own country. Read this:
Perhaps India should build on the Agni V test to make longer-range missiles, as DRDO director V K Saraswat promised to do last week, but this has big financial, diplomatic and strategic implications - and is therefore a matter for political leaders. A national security strategy and nuclear posture review - like those we see in other nuclear weapons states - would be a good start.

The second danger is that we begin to see all technological advances as desirable. To be sure, anything that makes India's missiles more survivable - for example, increasing their mobility on the ground - is unambiguously a good thing. But other improvements mentioned by Saraswat, like MIRV technology that puts multiple warheads on a single missile, presents trade-offs: the missiles will pack a greater punch, but could generate fears that India is abandoning credible minimum deterrence.

As India's former army chief, General K Sundarji, once obser-ved, "In war-fighting, whether conventional or nuclear, whilst calculating relative strengths, more is always better. But for deterrence, more is not better if less is adequate". As India rightly celebrates the improvement of its national deterrent, this is sound advice.

Joshi is a research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute and a doctoral candidate at Harvard Univer-sity. O'Donnell is a doctoral candidate at King's College, London.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 825780.cms

Sigh!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

IMHO, in deterrence a measure of less capability is inadequate. So, how does it differ in terms of war-fighting. Furthermore, one would fight with one has in hands. So, it is important to know deterrence values are higher than war-fighting needs.

Especially, when you have nothing to predict future, you have to have good deterrence measures. War-fighting cannot be out of scope of deterrence values, but within.

-

PS: Of course this deterrence theory will go fut! if one deters like pakis.. all of chinese capabilities are theirs to keep.. so they can boost of DF-31 capabilities as their own deterrence.
Last edited by SaiK on 23 Apr 2012 22:06, edited 2 times in total.
harbans
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by harbans »

I think it is a good idea to keep testing missiles in a 1000 km increment..A6-6k; A7-7k and so on..just keep the delivery payload high and trajectory depressed..they'll get fed up.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_20317 »

Asit P wrote:By the way, there is no dearth of champions in our own country. Read this:
As India's former army chief, General K Sundarji, once obser-ved, "In war-fighting, whether conventional or nuclear, whilst calculating relative strengths, more is always better. But for deterrence, more is not better if less is adequate".
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 825780.cms
Gen Sunderji apparently is read and quoted by the NPAs and Sundry Experts. Some years back armscontroljhand.com had something on him. Then there was a Canadian Nodong who found him fascinating. I think I will have to read him too. What the hell made them love Gen Sunderji so much. How did he made these guys feel so secure.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Sunderji also said credible minimum deterrent is one that deters the maximum. And thus will depend on the challenger. PRC might need more than others at this time.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shyamd »

ramana wrote:Shyamd, Thats where NFU comes in for India. The challengers cant launch on warning for they know incoming is not a nuke unless they are cretins.

Also Shourya is declared nuke carrier. Prahaar is battle field conventional weapon.

As for Tomahawk its used against non-nuke powers and there should be no mistake for them nor retaliation! Besides US and Russia have the INF treaty which changed out the payloads and is under treaty verification.


I don't know what that expert is talking counter force and counter value stuff. India's NFU means that deterrence has broken so what counter force application? Its all counter value MAD. If they hit India no one gets up.

The accuracy with the yield and modern concrete urban jungles mean its all Shiva Tandava.
So what DRDO expert is that who wants to blunt the weapon that DRDO has created like Vishwakarma?
Thanks ramana ji. BTW DRDO signalled that Prahaar can carry the warhead too. So will commanders want to use it in the event it is seen as escalatory by enemy?

Agreed about NFU.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

My question is this.. when the challenger is not specified in the doctrine (NFU), what is the measure for "minimum" then?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Agni V: What is its Strategic Significance? - Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies (IPCS)
Agni-V can reach any part of China and of course, Pakistan; hence India does not need to proceed further if its objectives are only to strengthen its deterrent. However, great power seekers would urge that India must have ICBMs to join the Nuclear Club; it could never be a de jure member, unless the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) is amended - the chances of this happening are zero. A seminal decision cannot be evaded now on the strategic logic for extending or not extending the range of the Agni-V. India cannot proceed serendipitously forever.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

I think, we will have plethora of strategists asking for constraints in various forms.. we know how we can shoot ourselves in the foot. We have to be extremely careful in allowing statements coming out of experts.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shyamd »

NFU doesn't count for much in an actual war. Enemy will just see it as a piece of paper. But I guess most national security decisions are risky. Perhaps there is some sort of an informal cooperation on this subject during wars with nuclear powers.

Has prithvi ever been used in its conventional role?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

Agni V Launches India into the ‘Strat’-o-sphere - IDSA COMMENT
In practical terms, however, India’s latest strategic missile covers an almost equal expanse to that of a “legit ICBM”. Indian scientists claim that, with suitable modifications, its range could even be increased to cover sites half-way across the world. They are understandably thrilled over the Agni-V’s successful launch, claiming that it makes India "a major missile power". Soon after the launch, a visibly pleased Dr. V. K. Saraswat, the DRDO Director General, dubbed the Agni V as a “game-changer” and suggested a two year time frame for its eventual induction.
The US, Britain, France and Australia, which support India’s rise and see it as a potential counter-weight to China, now seem to openly acknowledge that when it comes to strategic missile tests, some countries are more equal than the others. This is exactly what appears to have riled Chinese strategists.
Interestingly, whilst the political class in India appeared keen to downplay the strategic implications of the Agni V’s test, the Indian scientists seem to have adopted a more strident tone, thus lending credence to the belief that India not only regards the missile launch as a national achievement, but is also intent on sending out a strong message to its supposed adversaries. India, it would appear, is happy to join the “elite ICBM club” and will do everything in its power to press home the advantage. But New Delhi will, doubtless, be aware of the perils of overstating the potency or significance of the Agni V, lest it is misinterpreted by anyone, especially India’s Himalayan neighbor, as a strategic signal.

China’s reactions to the event, on the other hand, provide evidence that strategic missile capability remains a crucial determinant of strategic equations between powerful nations. Strategic weapons, in a sense, continue to mediate the hierarchy of power and geo-strategic clout among the top global players. India’s rapid economic growth and military rise has catapulted it onto the international centre-stage. But even as New Delhi urges the other occupants of the high table to take a balanced view of the Agni V test, many will interpret it as an act of ”strategic messaging”.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by arun »

pandyan wrote:
sum wrote:I am guessing it is a variant TATA carrier displayed at Defexpo?
There was a picture/report that Tata 12x12 is the carrier for A-V
Unlikely.

The payload of the TATA 12x12 is 33 tons (Clicky). The Agni V weighs a lot more than that.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

IMHO, when we speak of deterrence, we speak of possession of the capability in the forces. When we say prithvi has been tested for certain role - perhaps user testing, it has been accepted in certain role and is a capable of being deployed. The user can test it any time, and the same shall be considered as been used in that role. Of course, no sane person will use a missile without a war.

NFU dosen't count for war .. yes for conventional wars, you are right. but not other wise. jmt
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_20317 »

Shyamd ji, all 60 times it was used in a conventional role. :)

On a more serious note, its really strange how people ask for mortgage of a 3.5 lac rupee car for financing a vehicle loan or argue over a credit card charge, but an NFU is bought and sold at face value.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

tejas wrote:A tiny 250-350 kt TN warhead needs to be tested to go into that dwarf Agni V missile. The arrogance of these SOBs is amazing.
Perhaps I misunderstand tejas, but who are the "SOBs" you are referring to? Please clarify as quickly as you can.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by nachiket »

JE Menon wrote:
tejas wrote:A tiny 250-350 kt TN warhead needs to be tested to go into that dwarf Agni V missile. The arrogance of these SOBs is amazing.
Perhaps I misunderstand tejas, but who are the "SOBs" you are referring to? Please clarify as quickly as you can.
Think he means the Chinese who labelled the Agni V a "dwarf" missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

shyamd wrote:
ramana wrote:Shyamd, Thats where NFU comes in for India. The challengers cant launch on warning for they know incoming is not a nuke unless they are cretins.

Also Shourya is declared nuke carrier. Prahaar is battle field conventional weapon.

As for Tomahawk its used against non-nuke powers and there should be no mistake for them nor retaliation! Besides US and Russia have the INF treaty which changed out the payloads and is under treaty verification.


I don't know what that expert is talking counter force and counter value stuff. India's NFU means that deterrence has broken so what counter force application? Its all counter value MAD. If they hit India no one gets up.

The accuracy with the yield and modern concrete urban jungles mean its all Shiva Tandava.
So what DRDO expert is that who wants to blunt the weapon that DRDO has created like Vishwakarma?
Thanks ramana ji. BTW DRDO signalled that Prahaar can carry the warhead too. So will commanders want to use it in the event it is seen as escalatory by enemy?

Agreed about NFU.
I thought Shourya is the land version and K15 the SLBM. So has Shourya's payload been declared to be nuclear or conventional or either or not sure? The general understanding is K15 shall carry a nuclear payload only?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pankajs »

India Blows Past China's Smokescreen - WSJ
Smart people and smart nations judge governments more on what they do than on what they say. India's successful test of an Agni-V long-range, nuclear-capable missile shows the shrewdness of the world's largest democracy. Delhi has looked past smokescreens from Beijing and Washington to judge hard realities.

In response to India's improved ability to deter China's own nuclear arsenal, a Foreign Ministry spokesman in Beijing said "India and China are not rivals but cooperative partners. We believe the two countries should cherish the hard-won momentum of sound bilateral relations."

But Delhi increasingly knows from Beijing's conduct that this is not so. China cooperates in Kashmir with Pakistan, which uses terrorists as instruments of statecraft against India. Many Indians are knowledgeable about the nature of China's government, having heard about it from some 150,000 Tibetans who have fled oppression to arrive in India, and who no longer have a country of their own.

Elsewhere, Beijing's conduct is hardly more comforting. Earlier this month, a Chinese general said the Philippines was facing its "final chance" to resolve territorial disputes in the South China Sea—presumably on terms favorable to China. Beijing then initiated a standoff with the Philippine Navy, which had tried to evict Chinese fishing boats operating illegally in Manila's exclusive economic zone (EEZ). Last May, Chinese patrol boats damaged a Vietnamese oil survey ship in Hanoi's EEZ. Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan have also recently been in the crosshairs of Beijing's diplomats and warriors.

Prudence dictates that Delhi be prepared for similar Chinese treatment of India's interests. Ordinarily, a strong U.S. counterforce in the Pacific and Indian Oceans would allay some Indian concerns about Beijing. That has been a key to relative peace in the postwar era. But India's missile launch is another sign Delhi perceives this could be changing.

Indeed, Delhi can judge President Obama's claim of a strategic "pivot to Asia" to be mendacious. True, Mr. Obama announced the new intermittent stationing of up to 2,500 U.S. Marines in northern Australia as part of the "pivot." They augment U.S. troops in Japan and South Korea. But deterring Chinese aggression and altering Beijing's behavior depend on friendly naval, aviation and nuclear assets—and increasingly on missile defense and cyber capabilities. Both Beijing and Delhi can see the U.S. Navy and Air Force steadily shrinking, and now set to be frog-marched off a cliff through imminent budget cuts and mismanaged procurement.

India and China also know that the dispatch of a tiny contingent of Marines 3,700 miles from Beijing is nearly irrelevant. It is arguably worse than doing nothing. The force and its location are suspiciously configured not to upset Beijing. It reinforces the perception that Washington is unable to confront Beijing seriously or coherently. President Obama's decision last year not to sell Taiwan new F-16s—three levels of quality below America's top fighter jet—confirms Washington's inability to identify and treat accordingly those who are its friends, and those who are not its friends. Both groups have in common the realization that Mr. Obama's "pivot" is more about rhetorical cover for American withdrawal from the Middle East and Central Asia than deterring China.

Delhi presumably sees little help on the horizon. A second Obama term would likely resemble his first. Mr. Obama's all-but-certain opponent in the November presidential election, Mitt Romney, has used tougher language on China and called for a larger U.S. Navy and Air Force. But he declares on his website: "Our objective is not to build an anti-China coalition." He furthermore has reserved most of his ire at Beijing for its trade and currency policies. These are telltale signs of politicians who are willing to shadowbox Beijing when it is useful with voters, but who are unwilling to push back seriously against Beijing's security offenses.

An improved military is not the only tool Indians are using to grapple with China. While remaining open to expanded investment and commerce, Indians have been treating China's officials to a degree of candor seldom heard from senior Obama administration officials. Narendra Modi, the popular center-right chief minister of the prosperous Indian state Gujarat, was blunt on a trade-focused mission he undertook to China last November. Despite India's "look east" economic policy, Mr. Modi nonetheless condemned Chinese military cooperation with Pakistan, claims Beijing makes on Indian territory and Chinese detention of Indians from his state without trial—allegedly for running a ring to smuggle diamonds from Hong Kong.

Indians will increasingly judge Beijing by its actions rather than its words. They hold Washington to the same standard. Delhi has the means and motivation for a stronger diplomatic and military posture to deal with China. Other governments should too.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

A5 Tessy is not like 3 mangoes in one shot, but more like a giant elephant finally shook all the mangoes to fall, and still maintained the tree to survive. This was a true SDRE missile!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Prem »

pankajs wrote: Indians will increasingly judge Beijing by its actions rather than its words. They hold Washington to the same standard. Delhi has the means and motivation for a stronger diplomatic and military posture to deal with China. Other governments should too.
Pretty much the same as the collective wisdom of BRF for the last few years. Lets say that Chuhineese and and Khans have been unable to read complex Indian mind .
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by paramu »

Now India has to declare that if Pakistan attacks India with nuclear weapon, China will also be held responsible for that, and retaliation will happen to both Pakistan and China.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

^What logic is that?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramdas »

Shyamd,

what is PRC hinting at ? how can they prevent a decision we intend taking on some nuclear related matters ? direct military action against our strategic program itself or calibrated action at the border ?

direct action against start. program should be equated to nuke attack ... this red line should be made clear..
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by tejas »

WOW. i have never seen such an anti-China and pro-India write up in a paper as prestigious as the WSJ before. No mention of anti-Muslim riots when talking about NaMo (as if any one in the US actually likes or gives a rats ass about Mohammadeans). I really think the time is ripe to take the plunge and confirm the newly designed TN bomb works. I think India is finally being looked at differently and as country deserving respect.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Did anybody notice that US announced the results of the hypersonic test.
http://www.latimes.com/business/money/l ... 4567.story

It is connected to A 5 test.
Successful A5 test may have resulted in that kind of article
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

maasans like healthy competition. Without USSR, they would not have had the oomph to be what they are now. Similarly we need china, and the new found NATO aware and respect for India.

It is all left to our political leadership how they can take us from here.
It is all left to our aam people, what kind of leadership we want us to head us where we want to go.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

all the avatars of Vishnu are like India - peaceful, and uses minimal force only in extreme circumstances when all of negotiation and well meant advice are exhausted. he sheds blood only when other means of showing people to amend their ways are not there - as in Narasimha tearing apart Hiranyakshapu.

in Nepal, they worship a avatar of Shiva called Kala Bhairab...it is a pure form of Shiva associated with annihilation....I feel it will be a apt concept for the next phase of our evolution....

http://religiongods.blogspot.com/2007/1 ... shiva.html

people should be careful
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

Singha wrote: in Nepal, they worship a avatar of Shiva called Kala Bhairab...it is a pure form of Shiva associated with annihilation....I feel it will be a apt concept for the next phase of our evolution....
Why only Nepal?
Lord Kala Bhairava is the Boss of Kashi.
Gautam
PS: Listen to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE0n7ko_fYU
This prayer helps in time management, for people like me who are forever late.
Last edited by g.sarkar on 24 Apr 2012 10:17, edited 2 times in total.
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