Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Boudhayan
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Boudhayan » 09 May 2012 20:28

Question to Gurus, does this :

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=18380

mean that the issue was with the integration of the Missile with the tracking devices with no problems with the missile/launch mechanism itself ? If that is the case, then there is noting to worry.

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 May 2012 20:39

GD, I addressed these issues in 1999 in a BRM article "What Next?"
Please look up the archives!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 May 2012 21:19

John, you are right.. tomohawkish brahmos is good enough too. subsonic or near mach 1 is difficult to intercept at low heights.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 09 May 2012 21:43

Well, ASMP-A's final approach is at low altitude. Naturally range varies depending on the flight profile. Maximum range for the ASMP-A is 500 km.

But its ramjet does rather well getting up to mach 3.

France and Britain at one time had looked at a longer ranged ASLP. Range would have been up to 1200 km.

And SaiK,

The Mach 3/ 3000 km kind of specs have been achieved only by 3M 25 Meteorit which was essentially carried by the Tu-95 in air launched tests. Although it was meant to be later carried by the Tu-160.

And the Meteorit flew at 70000 feet.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 May 2012 22:03

Anything faster than kh-55 similar specs?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 10 May 2012 02:19

Only the Meteorit. And it had the Marabou plasma stealth system to retain comparable low observability.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Narad » 10 May 2012 12:21

Boudhayan wrote:Question to Gurus, does this :

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=18380

mean that the issue was with the integration of the Missile with the tracking devices with no problems with the missile/launch mechanism itself ? If that is the case, then there is noting to worry.


Or apparently they might have known in advance that poak suars have also planed a tit for tat missle launch. Hence by postponing A1 launch, the == moment of joy for pakis and paki-pasand foreign media is effectively denied.

Pakistan tests nuclear-capable short range missile
http://Yawn.com/2012/05/10/pakistan-tes ... e-missile/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 May 2012 17:36

SaiK wrote:Anything faster than kh-55 similar specs?


Actually there are lot of cruise missile that are faster then Kh-55 , like Kh-22 and then the newer Kh-32 that cruises at Mach 3 + at 44 km altitude and can hit ships and radio contrast targets ...the entire range of supersonic naval missile like Shipwreck , P-1000 etc can hit radio contrast target and fly faster than Mach 3 ....Metiorite used ramjet propulsion and had strategic range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby geeth » 10 May 2012 19:17

It was noted in the article that @ 6 km/s the RV became the fastest traveling object made by India.


Often,satelllites are injjected into orbit @round 10 KM/Sec or so..These numbers have lesser meaning than the control & Accuracy of the missile warheads

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 10 May 2012 19:55

interesting.. considering a missile system, i think satellite payload is more or less higher.. at injection, working against gravity, 10km/sec beats the RV at 6km/sec that is aided by gravity. lot of questions now.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby merlin » 11 May 2012 12:24

geeth wrote:
It was noted in the article that @ 6 km/s the RV became the fastest traveling object made by India.


Often,satelllites are injjected into orbit @round 10 KM/Sec or so..These numbers have lesser meaning than the control & Accuracy of the missile warheads


Not to mention how fast the satellites made by India travel (the ones in PSSO).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby koti » 11 May 2012 13:40

koti wrote:Not necessarily. It depends on the alt at which the third stage burns out. The Atmospheric drag can be both greater or lesser (opposite in direction)then the Inertia of the RV+Final stage.
The claim of 600 KM Apogee made me think this way.
Inertia is a virtue many a time.

? Is this assumption correct?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gerard » 11 May 2012 17:28

Not to mention Chandrayaan 1

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 May 2012 06:13

Next momentous event will be when the DRDO tests the ABM against targets equivalent to the Dong Feng series.

The true shattering event will be when they take out AV class RV.

Truly a Tripurantaka moment.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 12 May 2012 06:23

ramana wrote:Next momentous event will be when the DRDO tests the ABM against targets equivalent to the Dong Feng series.

The true shattering event will be when they take out AV class RV.

Truly a Tripurantaka moment.


It will be very interesting to see how they simulate the incoming test missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pankajs » 12 May 2012 10:38

Nothing new except
Agni-V may be equipped with multiple warheads: DRDO chief
Talking about the ongoing efforts to develop an array of tactical missiles, Saraswat said, "Work is going on a number of tactical missiles such as the long and medium-range surface-to-air missiles. The Mark-I version of Astra Long Range Air-to-Air Missile will be ready by 2015."

He said that the long-range surface-to-air missile would be ready by 2014 while its medium-range version will take a year more. Astra Mark-I will be an 80-km range missile.

Saraswat refused to divulge the range of the Mark-II version of Astra missile.

On development of 150 to 180-km range Prahaar missile for the Army, the DRDO Chief said the project has now matured and demonstrations were given to the force.

"We have demonstrated it (Prahaar missile) to the Army. It is a fully developed missile including its launcher and cannister. It is ready and, if the Army makes a choice then we can take it from the present demonstration stage to the production stage," Saraswat said.
This essentially is a PTI report but the info is fully confusing. e.g. Astra is called an A2A and also a S2A missile.

Rearranging the bits....what i can gather...
Mark I: Range : 80 km Due : 2014
Mark II: Range : withheld Due : 2015

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nrshah » 12 May 2012 16:50

^^^
No I think you got it Astra (AAM) with LRSAM (Navy) and MRSAM(AF) developed with Israel...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 13 May 2012 00:59

http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Div ... /index.htm
need arun s kind of analyzer to check out the data here.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 13 May 2012 02:22

I'm really excited about Prahaar reaching the Arty Divisions of the IA; together with Brahmos, they'll offer the Army and Corps Commanders great deal of flexibility in dealing with high value targets in their area(s).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 13 May 2012 03:20

so, who is providing us the Nirbhay engine?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby NRao » 13 May 2012 05:13

Hope this was not posted earlier:

After Agni V, Nirbhay on test bed

The air-launched version of Nirbhay for Su-30MKI aircraft of the Indian Air Force, would further accentuate the range and strike capability. Specifically designed for Su-30 MKI, this cruise missile is equipped with ‘loitering’ capabilities and is going to enhance the Indian/Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile by covering more distance. Except for its engine, Nirbhay has been developed indigenously.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 13 May 2012 09:24

^^^ Complete article

After the successful launch of Agni-V, the nation can look forward to the first flight test of the indigenously developed subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay.

Avinash Chander, chief controller (missiles and strategic systems), Defence Research and Development Organisation, while speaking to this newspaper, said that although the exact date for the first flight test of Nirbhay is yet to be decided, it would definitely be sometime later this year.

Officials at the Defence Research and Development Organisation disclosed that Nirbhay has a range of 750 km to 1,000 km and its first flight test will be launched from the Integrated Test Range at Balasore in Odisha.

Nirbhay is capable of carrying nearly two dozen different warheads as per the requirements in the field and can be launched from multiple platforms including air, land and sea. It is a two stage missile being developed by Aeronautical Development Establishment of Defence Research and Development Organisation
.

Nirbhay uses an inertial navigation system for guidance and is capable of choosing one particular target amongst multiple targets. So far only Su-30 MKI has been equipped with Brahmos supersonic cruise missile and Astra medium-range air-to-air missile. Sources said that this subsonic cruise missile will be inducted into all the three defence forces: the Army, Navy and Air Force.

The air-launched version of Nirbhay for Su-30MKI aircraft of the Indian Air Force, would further accentuate the range and strike capability. Specifically designed for Su-30 MKI, this cruise missile is equipped with ‘loitering’ capabilities and is going to enhance the Indian/Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile by covering more distance.

Except for its engine, Nirbhay has been developed indigenously. Sources also disclosed that the Tatas are building the carrier or launch vehicle for Nirbhay.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby gnair » 13 May 2012 09:51

A derivative of this engine could be a possibility for the Nirbhay.
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... ation.html

Description
Previously known as the TV-50, this small turbofan was designed to power the RKV-15B strategic cruise missile (NATO name "AS-15 Kent"). It has now been developed for a range of applications as a missile booster engine, and as the sole propulsion for small manned and unmanned aircraft. A design objective was minimal fuel consumption. No applications reported by 2011.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 May 2012 11:18

we have licensed either the 36MT turbofan from saturn (same engine on KH59) or the R95-300 engine (KH55 engine) from Motor-sich ukraine for Nirbhay, perhaps with a initial order of hundreds ready engines. in the mid 90s the chinese via the Ukraine which was trying to market the KH55 as a "Korshun" also obtained access to this engine or a earlier model and used that.....I would not be surprised if the chinese family of turbofan CMs have this history, while Babur might have a chinese made turbojet given its lesser range.
http://npo-saturn.ru/dload.php?fid=3&slang=1

I would lean towards we licensing it from russia than ukraine ...probably the KH101 engine and dont forget the KH101 had a second config that Russia did not pursue of contra rotating props in the tail for a massive range...we might be developing another version of nirbhay for the "loitering strike" role...like say wander for hours along divisional and corps MSRs looking for convoys to beat up...passively feeding on radio or satcom updates from UAVs, manned recon aircraft or satellite based assets .... once a good target is located, a "shoal" of these random loiterers hiding below the ridgelines in valleys without any serious threats (using passive RWR to decide on that) would like a pack of sharks converge on the scene from all directions and launch the attack!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby gnair » 13 May 2012 17:15

" Loitering strike" looks pretty exotic at this time, but if it can be pulled off, that'll be a generational qualitative difference between the Baburs and what ever post soviet knock-off's exist in the PLA inventory. A lot of user input from the PTA-Lakshya project, for various flight profiles could be migrated to the Nirbhay program.
I have a question though: Why the range limitation to 750-1,000 km for Nirbhay? Deterioriation of target accuracy beyond this number or closed loop navigation limitations such as INS and lack of space based NAV assets or Specific Fuel consumption limitation in the existing air frame.
540NM (1,000 km) with 4,000> lbs ordnance, without mid-air fuel feed is the average manned aircraft mission profile these days.
So from an Air launched mode, it looks ok but surface launched range should be improved upon as the program matures. As a comparison, the new S.Korean cruise-mis has 1,500km, when all they need is 600km max to penetrate north of the DMZ. But then it shows the amount of launch flexibility that is pre-built in, when really needed. I hope this is just the starting point, for shots within theater of ops.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 May 2012 17:30

nirbhay1 is likely sized to be dropped off MKI and MRCA, fired from 21" submarine TT and from ships inclined boxes and UVLS atleast . the big KH55 are manageable only by bombers. it can surely be upsized with a bigger fuel tank and made prahaar sized for land based truck launcher.

tomahawk SLCM is 20ft long and goes around 2000km...nirbhay1 is likely only around 15ft long.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhik » 13 May 2012 17:50

Livefist had this(clickey) story on a "mini gas turbine" being developed(?) by the GTRE a couple years ago.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby akimalik » 13 May 2012 19:05

Has anyone heard of this company:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladon_Jets

They manufacture Micro-Jets which Jaguar planned to use in their cars.
What are the chances that TATAs would get this tech?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby NRao » 13 May 2012 19:14

akimalik wrote:Has anyone heard of this company:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladon_Jets

They manufacture Micro-Jets which Jaguar planned to use in their cars.
What are the chances that TATAs would get this tech?


Jet Power: Bladon's microjets enable Jaguar turbine hybrid

Do you know if they have a section for military applications?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby suryag » 15 May 2012 21:17

Every sentence worth a read

Quality our concern' - Interview with Avinash Chander

TS: China has reacted in a big way. It says that Agni-V actually has a range of 8,000 km and that India has underplayed it
Is it true?

AS: No comments.


Where is that lungi of mine

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 15 May 2012 23:38

I sold it to couple of chippandas at work! ;) .. cause they want do the shiver part of it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 17 May 2012 04:06

Singha wrote:nirbhay1 is likely sized to be dropped off MKI and MRCA, fired from 21" submarine TT and from ships inclined boxes and UVLS atleast . the big KH55 are manageable only by bombers. it can surely be upsized with a bigger fuel tank and made prahaar sized for land based truck launcher.

tomahawk SLCM is 20ft long and goes around 2000km...nirbhay1 is likely only around 15ft long.


Methinks Nirbhay = Tomahawk + Harop

Cruise Missile + UAV (main-in-the-loop target acquisition). If so, it will be something revolutionary

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 17 May 2012 04:18



Awesome! 8)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_22906 » 17 May 2012 15:01

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/05/could-this-be-indias-nirbhay-cruise.html

So far, it had been thought (and continues to be believed) that the Nirbhay is powered by an NPO Saturn 36MT or 37-01E small-size turbofan engine, though The Hindu report linked above talks, weirdly, of a turbo-prop engine


The DRDO chief has said on more than one occasion that the Nirbhay has a loitering capability. It is understood to sport a cruise speed of 0.7 Mach and a ceiling range of about 1,000-km. Reports suggest the Nirbhay is about 6-metres long and is a little over 50-cm in diameter. We also know that it is to be a multiplatform weapon, with land-launched, air-launched and sea-launched versions, and a capability to deliver 24 different warhead types

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nrshah » 17 May 2012 15:36

suryag wrote:Every sentence worth a read

Quality our concern' - Interview with Avinash Chander

TS: China has reacted in a big way. It says that Agni-V actually has a range of 8,000 km and that India has underplayed it
Is it true?

AS: No comments.


Where is that lungi of mine


Excellent article... More than anything, it is the confidence boost that is worth noting...The talk about MIRV/MARV (around 2 -3 years), cannisters (around a year), QC is giving goosebumps...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 17 May 2012 18:44

Shiv Aroor in the Nirbhay piece brings in the propfan speculation but of course fails to mention where it started from.

This was the piece from which the propfan speculation began.

http://m.ibnlive.com/blogs/sauravjha/29 ... ssile.html

It is often remarked that the only thing missing in India's missile portfolio is a subsonic cruise missile akin to the BGM-109G Tomahawk ground launched cruise missile (GLCM) deployed by the Americans in the eighties. Fortunately, 2012 seems to be the year when this is set to change with several reports of DRDO's Nirbhay being shortly unveiled. One report is particularly noteworthy - TS Subramanian's 'Nirbhay likely to be testfired in April' in this Wednesday's The Hindu.

The story talks about the Nirbhay being a two-stage missile with the second stage powered by a turboprop engine. While the first part is simple enough - the two stages are obviously a reference to the solid booster (which is the 'first stage') used by the Nirbhay when it is launched from the ground; it is the second 'salient feature' that bothered me, i.e the part about the Nirbhay being powered by a turboprop engine during the cruise phase.

Cruise missiles in their 80-year history (considering the WW2 Luftwaffe V-I flying bomb as the first true cruise missile) have been powered by pulsejets, ramjets, turbojets and turbofans with the last two being the propulsive configuration of choice for missiles in Nirbhay's category, but never really by turboprops, unless of course you consider the MQ-9 Reaper to be a cruise missile, during a one-way suicide mission!



Dated March 9, 2012.

And that set off the following discussion on BR itself.
Propfan discussion on BRF

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 May 2012 07:59

why is he behaving like a fanboy posting speculative drawings with no basis in confirmed facts?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 18 May 2012 08:11

Turbofan for powering CM is something we all know about , where is this reference to 'Propfan' coming from ? Aren't the two different things ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 May 2012 08:14

yes they are different. speculation is nirbhay is the name of a program not just one model and will be a family of missiles including propfan for loitering strike model which will sacrifice speed for endurance. see the old thread for what I had found wrt kh101 early day proposals.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tejas » 18 May 2012 08:20

why is he behaving like a fanboy posting speculative drawings with no basis in confirmed facts?


Not sure GD. But I am sure that is the ugliest effing monstrosity I've ever seen. Horrible RCS and how would you fit that in a sub launched tube? My eyes! My eyes!


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