Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[kit]

Probable that the new declaration of capability means an assurance that India is not going to deploy it in the 8000 km range (but hidden meaning is that it is for another country specifically)

[SaiK]

I don't think we have any hidden meaning.. we may have hidden projects, but all of them all well defined... as our tentacles spread, we could slowly rename missiles to match the range. As of now, it is important that we focus on getting A5 variants per NFU doctrine plan.

[koti]

Guys, Agni V is China Specific according to several sources. 8000KM missile will be an overshoot for China.
BM's generally wont have such a vast spectrum of range(3000KM in case of A5(60%))
Agni-II can't(?) hit a target at 1200KM.

Unless Payload is played with of course.

[member_20317]

The standard size of a shipping container is 40 feet or approx 12 meter and can technically carry 40~50 tonnes.
With some adjustments can we actually fit Agni 6 inside similar containers and make them road mobile across our country?
mango indians may not know what is inside, what looks like a standard 40 feet container but is actually transporting a missile which can hit anywhere on the planet.
It forms one hell of a deterrence for us to have such mobility and invisibility.
They are difficult to target since no one really knows where they can be!

OK! I might have had one peg too much

Why go so complex.

Have you seen the trucks that haul cars from the manufacturers. They are even bigger. Now instead of going so radical you can simply cover up the real thing in a way that the real thing begins to closely resemble these car hauling trucks moving around on highways. Considering that you are only aiming to confuse the Desis, hardly any of whom knows choli ke peeche kya hai.

Do they have train mobile missiles made to look like real dibbas?

[karan_mc]

ok List seems to be updated now

Akash : 30 Km - medium range surface-to-air missile defense system - Inducted

Akash MK2 : 45 -50 KM surface-to-air missile , more of a improved variant then a new missile – In development

Nag : 4km – 3rd Gen Anti-tank missiles – In Process of Induction

Nag 2 : 7 km – 4th Gen Anti-tank missiles - In development

So Nag 2 is in pipeline ?? range seems to be same as Helina , so is it land based version of Helina ?

Long-Range Cruise Missile (LRCM) (Supersonic) : 1000 km - In development

Last time DRDO slides had a cad picture of it with Mig-25 style air intakes any news on that front ??

http://idrw.org/?p=11663#more-11663

[Indranil]

Do they have train mobile missiles made to look like real dibbas?

Yes.

Also we can't make trawlers work as TELs ... there is much more to a TEL than what meets the eye ... a TEL for a 40T missile is typically 120 Ton in weight itself and is powerful enough to be highly road mobile in that configuration.

[adityadange]

what will india do with 8k range missile? it will most likely fall in pacific if we aim it to east and in atlantic in the west. to south it will threaten the kangaroos and penguins. The only use i see is to aim musharraf's house in london towards north-west.
if we want a dittarance against uncle we definitely need 10k+

[Sriman]

what will india do with 8k range missile? it will most likely fall in pacific if we aim it to east and in atlantic in the west. to south it will threaten the kangaroos and penguins. The only use i see is to aim musharraf's house in london towards north-west.
if we want a dittarance against uncle we definitely need 10k+

It gives more options for your SSBNs to operate from. With a higher range, they can disappear into the Indian Ocean and still pose a potent threat.

[dinesha]

Equipped to build longest range missile: DRDO
Express News Service
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/equipped-to- ... 0-119.html

BANGALORE:Basking in the glory of their recent success in missile launches, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has claimed that it have all the necessary elements to build the longest range missile, but that would be determined by “threat”.
Speaking after the launch of the “Identification of Friend or Foe” (IFF) System to be integrated into the Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft, DRDO Chief V K Saraswat said: “Today we have all the building blocks to make the longest range missile in the world. But this will be based upon the threat.”
He said preventive action they had demonstrated was to show that they had the technology.
Portraying their capabilities, he said Agni V missile could also double up as a satellite launcher.“We can put in space light weight satellites, meant for lower orbits and their endurance limits small,” he said

[koti]

If a sat can be put into orbit, can't it maneuver to drop at any place on earth?
Available payload is debatable though.

[Singha]

that fractional orbit bombardment concept was 'outlawed' by some ussr-usa treaty I think (though nobody else ever signed on) as also permanent basing of n-weapons in space by another treaty.

I wonder if serious work has been done to make our TELs efficient and lighter, like for example using titanium and light alloys and composites instead of steel. sure will be expensive, but with only few 100 TELs to make its worth it.

[narayana]

Telugu Daily eenadu reports of Successful Test of Akash missile from chandipur ITR

[Patni]

Surface-to-air Akash missile test fired successfully

Balasore: Boosting its air defence shield and re-validating operational efficacy, India today test fired successfully its indigenously-developed surface-to- air 'Akash' missile from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur, about 15 km from Balasore.

The missile, which has a strike range of 25 km with a warhead of 60 kgs, was test fired from a mobile launcher from launch complex-III of the ITR at about 1108 hours, defence sources said.

"During the trial, the missile was aimed at intercepting a floating object supported by a pilotless target aircraft, flown from launch complex-II, at a definite altitude over the sea," the sources said.

Akash, an anti-aircraft defence system, can simultaneously engage several targets with 'Rajendra' radar developed by the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), a DRDO laboratory in Bangalore.

Rajendra does the surveillance, tracks the target, acquires it and guides the missile towards it.

[Varoon Shekhar]

"Akash : 30 Km - medium range surface-to-air missile defense system - Inducted"

There was a note posted on BR about some production problems with Akash. Have those been overcome? Production was said to be less than desired.

[Kersi D]

The standard size of a shipping container is 40 feet or approx 12 meter and can technically carry 40~50 tonnes.
With some adjustments can we actually fit Agni 6 inside similar containers and make them road mobile across our country?
mango indians may not know what is inside, what looks like a standard 40 feet container but is actually transporting a missile which can hit anywhere on the planet.
It forms one hell of a deterrence for us to have such mobility and invisibility.
They are difficult to target since no one really knows where they can be!

OK! I might have had one peg too much

Why go so complex.

Have you seen the trucks that haul cars from the manufacturers. They are even bigger. Now instead of going so radical you can simply cover up the real thing in a way that the real thing begins to closely resemble these car hauling trucks moving around on highways. Considering that you are only aiming to confuse the Desis, hardly any of whom knows choli ke peeche kya hai.

Do they have train mobile missiles made to look like real dibbas?

[Kersi D]

that fractional orbit bombardment concept was 'outlawed' by some ussr-usa treaty I think (though nobody else ever signed on) as also permanent basing of n-weapons in space by another treaty.

I wonder if serious work has been done to make our TELs efficient and lighter, like for example using titanium and light alloys and composites instead of steel. sure will be expensive, but with only few 100 TELs to make its worth it.

Did USA ever had / developed / was developing any FOBS systems ? I think USSR was working on such a system using their SS 13 / SS 11 ICBMs.

K

[Kersi D]

that fractional orbit bombardment concept was 'outlawed' by some ussr-usa treaty I think (though nobody else ever signed on) as also permanent basing of n-weapons in space by another treaty.

I wonder if serious work has been done to make our TELs efficient and lighter, like for example using titanium and light alloys and composites instead of steel. sure will be expensive, but with only few 100 TELs to make its worth it.

Can the TELs be reused ? If not then they should be as cheap as possible. Also we need a number of empty TELs to act as decoys.
K

[AbhiJ]

LRSAM (Barak-8) : 70 Km – Surface to Air Missiles under Joint Development with Israel and India , first test likely soon (Navy)
MRSAM: 70 km - Surface to Air Missiles under Joint Development with Israel and India , Modified variant of LRSAM for Air force

I think LRSAM is 120 Km.

[kit]

OT but why use missiles to destroy satellites ? There are both soft kill and a different hard kill measures to do it.Say for example smart space mines.Sending a rocket all the way to blast a satellite in orbit to smithereens is rather crude. These space mines can supposedly be activated when required and have their own propulsion and sensors. They do not necessarily 'blow' up the satellite but will make it quite 'dysfunctional' . Environment friendly chap btw.

[dinesha]

Ms Missile Scientist: Tessy Thomas, missile project director
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/fea ... l_features

There were just 12 days left for the critical Agni-V missile launch, but that was not why Tessy Thomas was uneasy in the stomach. The doughty ‘Agni putri', as the missile project director is fondly nicknamed, was simply having a bad tummy from the constant travel her work entailed.

During a chance meeting over lunch at the Advanced Systems Laboratory in Hyderabad she appeared rather anxious about what she ate. But regarding the country's most ambitious ballistic missile launch — the 5,000-km range Agni-V — Tessy exuded nothing but confidence.

Yes, the preparation was long, involving a lot of meticulous checks. But once the mission parameters are completed, the actual blast-off and launch will take just under half an hour. It's unlike Space launches, which have an elaborate countdown, she had explained.

Alongside Tessy, the missile programme's top team comprising Avinash Chander, V.G. Sekharan and Ravi Gupta, as also DRDO Chief Dr V.K. Saraswat were a confident lot from the beginning. The success of Agni-III had boosted their morale considerably. Agni-V was a virtual extension in terms of distance. The other big test was re-entry at a much higher temperature differential.

Nevertheless, as they were encountering conditions in hitherto uncharted areas of Space, the suspense was intense.

All the hard work was finally rewarded with success when the missile travelled with precision and achieved its distance and target. The team was overjoyed. “The happiness cannot be expressed. It was the fruitful outcome of three years of hard work by a large team. In a span of 20 minutes, as the missile soared and completed its task, our tensions were wiped out and a new confidence dawned,” she recounts.

“In the coming years we will work on guidance systems for the MIRVs (Multiple Independently targetable Re-entry Vehicles),” she says.

AN AMBITIOUS START

From the day she joined the Defence Research and Development Organisation in 1988, Tessy has been involved with the country's ambitious missile programme.

“Right from the beginning I have been involved in developing inertial navigation systems. During the first Agni launch in 1989, I was also involved in solid propulsion. Our team has developed this crucial technology along with onboard guidance and they have been well established. The challenge ahead is to extend them to multiple stages,” she says.

In the steadily growing missile community, Tessy has been the most visible female face for years. Along the way she's had many firsts. She worked her way up to become the first woman to lead a missile project with Agni III. The mission's success brought her greater responsibilities with Agni IV and, now, Agni V.

“I was very fortunate to have worked under the guidance of stalwarts like former President Mr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, Dr R.N. Agarwal and now Dr Avinash Chander, who have led the programme in its near three-decade journey. Dr Kalam, who steered the first Agni launch, has been a role model for me. I am a student of Avinash Chander and, over the years, learnt a lot from them, both in terms of technology and management.”

Over the years, this postgraduate in engineering from the Institute of Armament Technology, Pune, has strengthened her managerial skills with an MBA from IGNOU, as also a couple of short courses in project management from IIM-Ahmedabad.

Originally from Thrissur in Kerala, the scientist has made Hyderabad her home for the past 25 years. Her husband, Saroj Kumar Patel, is a naval officer who is currently based in Mumbai. He is equally clued into missiles thanks to a stint at the quality assurance directorate of DRDO.

With its focus on completely indigenous development, work on the Agni programme has been intensive and time-consuming. Tessy has had to dextrously juggle family and work. “The last four years have been very taxing with the series of Agni launches. I could hardly get time to pursue my other interests — reading and badminton,” she says. Her son, Tejas, is in the final year of his engineering course in Vellore. She is quick to clarify that her son's name is in no way connected to the famous defence aircraft. “I named him in 1990, a clear couple of years before the LCA (light combat aircraft) was named Tejas,” she says.

YOUNG, ENTHUSIASTIC LAB

The Advanced Systems Laboratory she works at currently is among the youngest of DRDO's labs; it was set up in 2000. Women constitute about 10 per cent of the predominantly young scientific community here. Rohini Devi, an expert in composite technology, is another top woman scientist at ASL, in the position of Associate Director.

The young lab is vested with the tough task of strengthening the country's strategic deterrence through the Agni programme. There is a new determination and high level of commitment among the younger generation of scientists,” says Tessy.

Equally important has been the ability to learn from the failures. “When it comes to failures and setbacks, we are definitely disheartened, as happened with the Agni IV flop in the first trial. But, over the years, we have put in place a sound failure analysis system to find out the root cause and rectify it,” says Tessy, adding that this has crucially contributed to the Agni programme's growing success rates.

[NRao]

Surface-to-air Akash missile test fired successfully

the Akash is capable of neutralising aerial targets such as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), fighter jets, cruise missiles and air-to-surface missiles.

I wonder:

1) What size of UAV does this cover, and
2) Is there anything called an anti-air-to-air missile? Google did not show anything.

[Aditya_V]

Surface-to-air Akash missile test fired successfully

the Akash is capable of neutralising aerial targets such as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), fighter jets, cruise missiles and air-to-surface missiles.

I wonder:

1) What size of UAV does this cover, and
2) Is there anything called an anti-air-to-air missile? Google did not show anything.

The Russians have always claimed the R-73 can take incoming Aim-54 Pheonix and earlier generation Sparrows.

[member_22872]

Not Indian missile tech related, but didn't know where else to post. Inflatable reentry vehicles posted by SaiK garu had posted in Agni V thread, from NASA website:
http://www.nasa.gov/offices/oct/home/fe ... _116053638

[D Roy]

The Russians have always claimed the R-73 can take incoming Aim-54 Pheonix and earlier generation Sparrows.

Tsung missile.

[A Sharma]

Surface-to-air Akash missile test-fired again

BALASORE, ODISHA: Two days after its successful trial, India on Saturday again test-fired the indigenously developed surface-to-air Akash missile from the test range at Chandipur near here.
"The user specific trial, which formed part of the country's routine air defence exercises, was conducted from the ITR," said a Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) official associated with the Akash missile project.

To revalidate the technology and operational efficacy of the anti-aircraft missile, defence forces conducted the trial with logistic support provided by the ITR.

They had test-fired Akash successfully from the same test range on May 24.

The missile, which has a strike range of 25 km with warhead of 60 kgs, was test fired from a mobile launcher from launch complex-III of the ITR at about 1110 hours, Defence sources said.

"During the trial, the missile sought to intercept a floating object supported by a pilot less target aircraft (PTA), flown from launch complex-II, at a definite altitude over the sea," they said.

Akash, an anti-aircraft defence system, can simultaneously engage several targets with Rajendra radar developed by Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), a DRDO laboratory situated at Bangalore. Rajendra does the surveillance, tracks the target, acquires it and guides the missile towards it.

The development of Akash missile took place during 1990s under country's integrated guided missile development programme (IGMDP). After many trials, was inducted into armed forces in 2008. An air-force version of Akash missile has also been developed by DRDO.

[kit]

the Akash is capable of neutralising aerial targets such as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), fighter jets, cruise missiles and air-to-surface missiles.
I wonder:
1) What size of UAV does this cover, and
2) Is there anything called an anti-air-to-air missile? Google did not show anything.
The Russians have always claimed the R-73 can take incoming Aim-54 Pheonix and earlier generation Sparrows.

The concept of anti air to air missile does exist.The only Air to air missile with AESA radar right now is a Japanese one., and this capability is proven.I don't know whether this was a proven capability with the Russian missile, but the Japanese have been quite coy about advertising the full capability of their Mitsubishi missile .

the links i could find
http://defense-update.com/20120314_japa ... ethal.html
http://blogs.defensenews.com/farnboroug ... sa-radars/

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

^^^ Suggest doing some Googling.......

Mitsubishi XAAM-4 GEC-Marconi

[NRao]

Aditya_V,

Thanks, will check it out. Certainly interesting if it can do that.

Kit/RK,

Both of you seem to be talking about AAMs. I am looking for an Anti-AAM. A missile that can intercept an AAM. Is there one out there? TIA.

[Rahul M]

the R-73 claims to be able to able to hit AMRAAM like missiles targeted at the host a/c.

[kit]

Aditya_V,

Thanks, will check it out. Certainly interesting if it can do that.

Kit/RK,

Both of you seem to be talking about AAMs. I am looking for an Anti-AAM. A missile that can intercept an AAM. Is there one out there? TIA.

Rao ji., i was talking about the anti AAM capability of the mitsubishi missile., i will post the original link if i can find it. The seeker for this missile does seem to have remarkable capabilities, i remember thinking about it.They were talking about the hard kill capabilities of newer AAM missiles vs other AAMs.. guess this is bleeding edge tech, even Raytheon with its vast experience in AESA hasnt produced a working model according to public info.

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

...

Kit/RK,

Both of you seem to be talking about AAMs. I am looking for an Anti-AAM. A missile that can intercept an AAM. Is there one out there? TIA.

By definition, an anti-AAM is itself an AAM.
No other kind of missile will likely ever be close enough to intercept an AAM during air combat.

[NRao]

By definition, an anti-AAM is itself an AAM.
No other kind of missile will likely ever be close enough to intercept an AAM during air combat.

Has that definition been put into practice? Do you know of an "AAM" that can intercept an AAM? Looking for a country + company + missile_name. TIA.

(Aside: India, in the 70's and 80's, produced the most amount of research papers in the world. Very, very few of them had practical value.)

[shiv]

Carlo Copp can be relied upon to write a different viewpoint well and with clarity
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html

read all of it at the original site if you like

Illustrative examples are the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-35 JSF, the latter armed in an air superiority configuration with two, the former with up to six AIM-120s [3]. Assuming the Flanker driver does not exploit his superior missile kinematic range and shoot first - an optimistic assumption - then the best case kill probability for the AIM-120 shooter firing two to four rounds is better than 90 percent. However, if we assume that hostile jamming and manoeuvre degrade the kill probability to around 50 percent - a reasonably optimistic statistical baseline here - then the total kill probability for a two round salvo is optimistically around 75 percent, and for a four round salvo over 90 percent. Arguably good odds for the four round salvo, only if the missile kill probability sits at 50 percent, but the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF will have expended all or most of its warload of AIM-120s and be unable to continue in BVR combat. In a "many versus many" engagement, the low speed of both types leaves them unable to disengage and will see both types subsequently killed by another Flanker.

This best case "many versus many" engagement scenario sees the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF being traded one for one with Su-30MK/Su-35BM Flankers in BVR combat, which is the general assumption made for WVR combat between like opponents, and representative of many historical attrition air campaign statistics. To achieve this best case "many versus many" outcome of trading F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF one for one, we have stacked a series of assumptions against the Flanker - dumb Flanker pilots not exploiting a missile kinematic range advantage, dumb Flanker pilots not exploiting a firepower advantage, Russian BVR missile seekers no better than the AIM-120, and Russian DRFM monopulse jammers achieving a less than 50 percent degradation of AIM-120 kill probability [4].

A competent Flanker driver gets the first shot with three or four round salvo of long burn R-27 variants, with mixed seekers, leaving one or two remaining salvoes of BVR missiles on his rails, and the same Flanker driver will have modern DRFM monopulse jammers capable of causing likely much more than a 50 percent degradation of AIM-120 kill probability. With a thrust vectoring engine capability (TVC), the Flanker driver has the option of making himself into a very difficult endgame target for the AIM-120 regardless of the capability of his jamming equipment. Since all of the AIM-120s fired are identical in kinematic performance and seeker jam resistance, any measure applied by the Flanker driver which is effective against one AIM-120 round in the salvo is apt to produce the same effect against all AIM-120 rounds - a problem the Flanker driver does not have due to diversity in seeker types and missile kinematics.

Currently classified capabilities such as the use of the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar as an X-band high power jammer against the Russian BARS or Irbis E radar are not a panacea, and may actually hasten the demise of the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF in a BVR shootout. This is for the simple reason that to jam the Russian radar, the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar must jam the frequencies being used by the Russian radar, and this then turns the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar into a wholly electronically predictable X-band high power beacon for an anti-radiation seeker equipped Russian BVR missile such as the R-27EP or R-77P. The act of jamming the Russian radar effectively surrenders the frequency hopping agility in the emissions of the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar, denying it the only defence it has against the anti-radiation missile. A smart Russian radar software designer will include a "seduction mode" to this effect, with narrowband emissions to make it very easy even for an early model 9B-1032 anti-radiation seeker.

[SaiK]

do we know what is the range for AAS-42 IRST pod?
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... tates.html

[koti]

Did we miss this?
Akash fails to hit target on Saturday Test

[Austin]

Hardly any reason to worry there , every SAM has a certain pk value for certain class of targets and even in those certain missile will fail for any number of reasons , wonder when did a sam failure during trials or even combat ever made news

[PratikDas]

An earlier report said the missile intercepted a floating object 'supported' by the Lakshya. So did the missile intercept the decoy instead of the desired target?
Thanks for the correction, koti ji.

Surface-to-air Akash missile test fired successfully

The missile, which has a strike range of 25 km with a warhead of 60 kgs, was test fired from a mobile launcher from launch complex-III of the ITR at about 1108 hours, defence sources said.

"During the trial, the missile was aimed at intercepting a floating object supported by a pilotless target aircraft, flown from launch complex-II, at a definite altitude over the sea," the sources said.

[koti]

That was the Thursday's trial saab.
It was successful.

[prabhug]

Looks like akash is now a 25Km missile and rajendra radar is 80Km .There was failure on satruday.what's cooking up.R v testing its role against cruise missile rigorously

[Singha]

even against fighters, multiple SAM shots to bring down to chase one away are par for course. there is no platinum bullet SAM with even a 80% PK in all conditions.