Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby keshavchandra » 12 Oct 2012 22:56

BrahMos to test submarine-based launch by year-end
BrahMos, the Russian-Indian supersonic cruise missile joint venture, is to test-fire its anti-ship version from a submarine platform by year-end, the venture’s Russian partner NPO Mashinostroyenie said Friday.

“We need a test-launch by the end of the year,” said the company’s deputy general director Alexander Dergachev.

“A decision will be made on whether the weapon can be accepted for service with the Indian Navy, dependent on the outcome,” he added.

The test will be a single demonstration firing from a submerged raft, he said.

“When an operational carrier has been chosen, then further trials will continue,” he said.

BrahMos, set up in 1998, produces three variants of the cruise missile, based on the NPO Mashinostroyenie 3M55 Yakhont (NATO SS-N-26) supersonic cruise missile already in service with Russia’s Armed Forces.

The Indian Army has already taken delivery of the land-launched variant. The navy already has the ship-launched missiles on ten vessels, Dergachev said.

The Indian Air Force will also use the weapon from an upgraded batch of 42 Sukhoi Su-30MKI strike fighters it is expected to order later this year, Russia’s Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said earlier this week in Delhi.

The missile has a range of 300 km, and will be vertically-launched by a gas generator in its launch container, which will eject the weapon by gas pressure, after which it will reach Mach-2 :?: ,” he said.

BrahMos can fly as low as 10 metres or attack its target from a high angle, combined with supersonic speed and evasive maneuvering. BrahMos can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg.

Earlier this week, Russian daily Izvestia quoted defence industry sources as saying India has uprated its BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles by installing the advanced satellite navigation systems from Russia’s Kh-555 and Kh-101 strategic long-range cruise missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 13 Oct 2012 16:37

Trolling through the net I came across the NLOS Spike and its associated launcher platform. Looking at the vehicle, I feel that a similar vehicle carrying 4 Nags can be done quite cheaply when compared to the NAMICA. Which in turn will increase the number of launch platforms and give IA sufficient numbers of 3rd Gen ATGMs for service.

Google Image Gallery NLOS Spike

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Oct 2012 18:05

yes, modular trailer mounted "universal" missiles of the spike/hellfire variety are definitely the future over the old generation of namica type systems.
more rounds can be carried, easier to reload, safer to shoot from just simple 4x4 stallion type trucks, hence easy to embed with any unit.

http://defense-update.com/20091014_nlos.html

with a airborne GMTI system/mast mounted radar or optronics providing advance warning and cueing the shooters, a "troop" of say 8 stallion trucks, each with 12 VL-Nag could devastate the entire area by unleashing 96 missiles within say 10 min on the enemy armour waves from behind cover and then scoot away to reload somewhere...this the divisional commander could direct. the effect would be like unleashing a couple dozen CBU105 type units over the formation. the next salvo could be from Pinaka and then Prahaar units under Corps HQ adding their quota of submunitions over the survivors and retreating units. and then unleash Longbows and LCH as the night falls for mopping up the remnants :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rsingh » 13 Oct 2012 21:36

As per Economist, guided mizziles are going to be dirt cheap in near future.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 13 Oct 2012 21:40

These missile require total situational awareness. I think we are still some way away from the likes of US & Israel to have that kind of ability with our enemies. IA prefers to use armored vehicles for missiles like Nag since air superiority might not be guaranteed. With more network specific hardware being inducted, it would allow us to use these missiles in the future.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 13 Oct 2012 22:07

My fav would be to standardize on VLS in shipping containers to be carried by the Trucks, Heavy lift Choppers, precision air drop chutes, ensure a mix of Nag & Prahaar as the rounds

Have the Kamov kind of radar plate under the Mi-17's fuselage, its function would be that of an airborne WLR useful in the mountainous terrain, to counter the preponderance of Chinese tube artillery by cueing Prahaars in the discreetly parked containers against their long range artillery

Extend this to the LCMs carried with the Jalashwa, the container can be put on the LCM itself suitably armed based on the mission

--------------------

The recent Brahmos test with masking of launch point implies the sub launch is coming up and I believe they would do both torpedo tube and VLS tests at some point. And if Nirbhay's can be launched from subs the risk the sub getting detected by targeting an MPA with a torpedo tube launched long range SAM (Novator 100) isn't high either.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby AbhiJ » 15 Oct 2012 23:37

Lots of Picklets for today. :evil:

India and Russia sign Deal for Hypersonic Brahmos

India and Russia will sign an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) to ensure that the Brahmos hypersonic cruise missile programme can move fast. It was decided at the 12th meeting of the India-Russia Inter-governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) in New Delhi that Russia would cooperate in the programme formally by signing an IGA, after which the flow of funds, technology and other work-share will be streamlined. As of now, both sides, DRDO-BrahMos of India and NPO-Mash of Russia, are working independently on the design of this highly advanced missile. Defence Minister A.K. Antony and his counterpart A.E. Serdyukov met for an annual meeting this week.

The missile is expected to have its first test in 2017, a decade after its first laboratory test in 2007. The Russian Defence Minister has also said on the BrahMos missile joint venture, that both nations were working on the "new generation" missiles that have already been inducted in the Indian Army and Navy, and that the Russians were looking at 1,000 pieces of the missile.

BrahMos Aerospace Centre had made a demonstrator vehicle, last year, to conduct an actual flight of the hypersonic missile, which has a speed between seven and eight mach. A successful test of the technology of the missile has been carried out in a laboratory, at a speed of 6.5 mach.

The hypersonic cruise missile, a more advanced version of the BrahMos, would be ready for its first actual flight in 2017.

DRDO and NPO-Mash are working on a sustained flight scramjet, which will be the core element in the hypersonic version. The mach 8 version of the missile, named as Brahmos-2, will be the first hypersonic cruise missile and is part of the India-Russia 10-year programme on military-technical cooperation, which currently comprises about 13 research-development and production projects.

The around 8 metres long missile system with a scramjet propulsion will have a range of less than 300 km. Scramjet propulsion implies that the combustion of the solid fuel booster will be supersonic to attain a hypersonic speed. A supersonic speed is between one and four mach, while sonic speed is one mach. Subsonic speed is less than one mach. The speed of sound is one mach, which is 330 metres per second. So far, BrahMos has only had ramjet propulsion, which is subsonic combustion to achieve a supersonic speed.

The high supersonic cruise missile can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or land. The propulsion of the missile is based on the Russian Yakhont missile, and guidance has been developed by Brahmos Corp. At the above speeds, which is about three times faster than the American subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile. The missile has three propulsion systems. A gas generator, a solid fuel booster to speed it up to Mach 2, and then an air-breathing liquid fuel ramjet which takes over to propel it to its target.

India's Defence Research and Development Organisation and Russia's Federal State Unitary Enterprise NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM) are the joint venture partners of the company.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2012 02:08

What we are seeing is the development of hypersonic, near space attack vehicles to counter BMD assets.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23785 » 16 Oct 2012 03:01

Nakul wrote:
John wrote:If somehow if such a system is developed missile has to decelerate rapidly, the scramjet cannot operate at the reentry speed so essentially slowing down to Mach 4-5 which missile defense system can shoot down (as mentioned above there are few ABM that can intercept RV). Why not just add another solid propellant rocket?


The scramjet will be much lighter as it will use atmospheric oxygen thereby allowing it to cruise for a greater distance compared to its solid counterpart. That additional distance could be covered at low altitudes making detection more difficult. This will also reduce the need for decoys allowing more warheads per missile. A properly executed flight profile could totally eliminate exo atmospheric interceptors giving only the endo atmospheric ones a chance to intercept. More info at http://warfare.ru/db/catid/242/linkid/2559/


Most Ballistic missiles especially ICBMs (being bigger and requiring relatively greater time to achieve thrust) are most vulnerable in the launch and boost phase and most of the BMDs attempt to destroy the missile in this stage. However, once the missile is re-entering atmosphere at phenomenal speeds up to Mach 24 it will be very difficult to target any warheads and decoys. Manoeuvrability of the decoys and warhead can be easily achieved by using reliable rocket motors. I personally think all the advancement of TOPOL and BULAVA are mainly in terms of shortening the boost phase to as small as possible. The above test could have been to just test a hypersonic vehicle like waverider technology and it could have been coupled with the regular missile launches. It might cost much more to have a dedicated launch by a B-52 like platform at an altitude of 15 odd kms so it makes sense if such a test can be done with a missile test.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20296 » 16 Oct 2012 07:02

I have a crazy idea no body has ever tried it, but there is no reason why we should not try it, we can eliminate or augment the boost phase by throwing ICBMs with EM slings at very high speeds and then igniting first phase, it will allow missile to have grater boost phase speed and increase its survivability. This way ICBMs can be made more compact and can be lighter too, one day some GORA will do it and then we will think what a smart idea....

Why should we try this methods only after GORAs have done.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gurneesh » 16 Oct 2012 07:06

^^^ Just think about the size of electromagnets/ power source required to propel a giant missile to any meaningful velocities.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pravula » 16 Oct 2012 07:34

and a target for first strike.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Oct 2012 07:47

or just a hit on the captive power station needed to operate it.

the hypersonic missiles tend to have a wedge-pyramid or cone type shape...it wont be the current long cylinder for sure. packaging such a bulky shape efficiently may be a challenge for VLS or inclined tube launch systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20296 » 16 Oct 2012 07:57

Yes I accept all these points they all are true :-) but every path breaking step starts with a not feasible looking crazy idea :-)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20296 » 16 Oct 2012 08:04

just for my information gurus can you tell me what could be a full laden wait of an F-18 Super Hornet ?? and what speed it can get to when it leaves the deck ? similarly we can assist the boost phase :-) (sorry for pestering)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Oct 2012 10:17

RajS wrote:However, once the missile is re-entering atmosphere at phenomenal speeds up to Mach 24 it will be very difficult to target any warheads and decoys


A pure ballistic path is easier is intercept by ABM irrespective of speed , a BGRV that manouveres tends to loose energy rapidly as it does not have propulsion of its own to sustain manouvering

Using Solid Propulsion for RV is not feseable post reentry because it tends to add up to throw up weight and solid fuel cannot be controlled in flight to the extent you can do with liquid/scramjet propulsion

Using Scramjet propulsion is ideal option as it is low volume/weight and can suck up oxygen from air to provide energy lasting much longer than any BGRV or Solid Fuel RV , sustaining energy is key during higher speed manouvering plus getting the right materials to compensate as these are very high G at those speed.

It is almost impossible to defeat such RV whose path is not predictable can manouver sustaining energy which is the Achilles-heels for all current ABM system.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Oct 2012 12:25

since any RV can be made to suck up air as it enters atmosphere with a small inlet, and the upper atmosphere is -50C, can it feed a X shaped cold gas thruster with raw material to make unpredictable moves in the plane perperdicular to direction of RV?

in short, no need for ignition, just suck up prodigious amts of air, store and compress it momentarily using shaped chambers with no moving parts (reliable) and then fart wildly in all directions :lol:
Last edited by Singha on 16 Oct 2012 12:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 16 Oct 2012 12:32

^^^

Do you mean something like this?

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Oct 2012 12:40

yes....but continuously within the atmosphere and fed using a scoop inlet not a stored bottle of gas....what is this?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 16 Oct 2012 13:00

That is an artistic impression of the Agni 5. The whole video can be watched here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAJf8_L-Oqc

The motor seen in the pic is a course correction mechanism (HAM?). The ability of it to be used outside the atmosphere indicates that it is not using air. However, this will not be an adequate ABM countermeasure. That would require a larger motor used in conjunction with BGRV for maximum evasion.

The biggest challenge is to carry adequate fuel to have a long maneuvring phase without degradation in speed. The latter is more important which requires an engine that can work at those velocities. Stuff like scramjet, glide vehicle & efficient propulsion could be used.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Oct 2012 14:38

Most RV would use their HAM or other types of fuel ( fixed solid thrust sticks etc ) before it reenters , once it reenters the atmosphere its really a burning mass , it would need careful shaping of RV, aerodynamic control surfaces and a propulsion like scramjet to make sure it does not burn out and falls of or worse breaks off due to high thermal stress due to manouvering while its scramjet engine burns making sure it does not slows down while it manouvers. Again these would need decades of testing of specialised vehical to perfect all of the above and probably only one country has put in those kind of effort.

Even pure Ballistic Free fall tends to slow down quite a bit once its reenters due to atmospheric friction and one might have seen from the video of russian RV on a free fall ......my thinking is even if the RV reenters at Mach 21-22 it slows down to more than half of its reentry value once it starts its atmospheric journey.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 16 Oct 2012 16:02

Warfare.ru has a video at http://warfare.ru/db/catid/265/linkid/1 ... ideo/true/

Approximate technical specifications
Length: 7 - 8 m
Wingspan: 3 - 3.5 m
Weight: 3 - 4 ton
Speed: Mach 6 - 14

Its a single warhead with a large payload.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 17 Oct 2012 01:19

K15
Payload: Range
1000 kg: 700 km
450 kg: 1200 km
200 kg: 1900 km

K4
2500kg: 3000 km
1000 kg: 6500 km
700 kg: 9000 km

Distance of water bodies from Beijing
700 km: Yellow Sea
1200 km: East China Sea
1900 km: South China Sea, Sea of Japan, Philippine Sea
3000 km: Pacific Ocean, Sea of Okhotsk
6500 km: Indian & Arctic Oceans

For land based missiles, Arunachal border to Beijing is 2200 km.

Finally, the mystery of yindoo missile range is solved for this SDRE. We can easily lob 12 missiles at Beijing without endangering Arihant. Although I prefer the MIRVed K4 from the cool waters of the Pacific, I can't wait to see what the K5 (real) range is.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 18 Oct 2012 12:11

BrahMos chief laments brain drain

On the BrahMos-2 project for developing a hypersonic reusable cruise missile, Pillai said it would give a significant boost to the country's defence capabilities.

He had earlier in June said the missile would be ready for test flight in 2017.

"The BrahMos- 2 programme has started with its design and basic technology development is currently underway," he said. Pillai said the missile, with a speed of Mach- 7 would deliver the warhead, assess the destruction of the target and come back and get ready to go again.


So Bramos 2 is a reusable missile. Those Mach 7 engines must be really costly for one time use. Finally, we are getting reusable missiles. The extra fuel should make it larger than Brahmos 1.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 18 Oct 2012 12:34

so brahmos-2 is more of an UCAV

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 18 Oct 2012 13:24

<Speculation alert>
Zircon S & Brahmos 2 are similar in range. Zircon will be advertised as 1000 km. Brahmos 2 would be 500 km with the ability to return.
<Speculation off>

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ9YKsNfkQ8&fea ... ated#t=70s

A Perseus missile separating its payload. Add loitering capability & you have a missile which can deposit its payload and assess the damage before returning.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby aniket » 18 Oct 2012 20:00

I seriously doubt they are developing several different missiles, at least as far as propulsion and materials are concerned (which is 90% of the work).

As per usual, Indians are going to get gimped range and indigenous electronics, but in all important ways, I seriously doubt that these two missiles are from different R&D projects. That's just not economically efficient, especially since NPO Mash is given an opportunity to develop a missile on Indian dime.

Adding to what this guy said on military photos.net , I think they'll be quite similar .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 18 Oct 2012 20:04

^^^

Austin has clearly specified that DRDO & Russians are working on different types of propulsions. It is not clear which one is chosen.

Don't follow the stereotypes - Russians copy from West, Chinese steal, Indians pay & get gimped. We already know that Brahmos is not gimped in anyway. The 290 km was never the real thing. The Brahmos2 is solely Indian & Russian. It won't be exported to third countries.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby hnair » 18 Oct 2012 23:52

how will they recover this missile? parachute + airbags? wheel landing means a lot of lower-speed handling subsystems

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby dinesha » 21 Oct 2012 07:06

Indian BrahMos using Russian GPS system
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/India ... m_999.html

Izvestia said the unnamed defense sector sources claimed the integration of the Russian navigation systems will allow the BrahMos to hit targets more than 300 miles away, one-third farther than without the systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 21 Oct 2012 09:08

Brahmos never used US GPS system but has always been using Russian GPS i.e GLONASS , this was even confirmed by Dr Pillai who mentioned that test has shown the accuracy was very good.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23061 » 21 Oct 2012 09:51

Image

Isn't that the naval Prithvi aka Dhanush?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 21 Oct 2012 10:44

Can't see your pic. Did anyone catch the Dhanush pic on Colbert last thursday?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 21 Oct 2012 12:02

^^ IIRC, that is the same pic posted above.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 21 Oct 2012 12:21

Austin wrote:Brahmos never used US GPS system but has always been using Russian GPS i.e GLONASS , this was even confirmed by Dr Pillai who mentioned that test has shown the accuracy was very good.



The only Brahmos test failure occurred on the day Obama became POTUS and they blocked GPS signals, now I believe Brahmos uses a unique GPS navigation module capable of using both GPS and GLONASS.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23061 » 21 Oct 2012 12:22

Heh, it seems the smexyness of our Dhanush has American's coveting it for their nuclear arsenal :D

/rofl

[pic describes Mitt Romney taking control of the Nukes on the first day of his Presidency]

Anyway,

I wonder how the writers at the Report missed out the fact that its an Indian missile. You can even see the 'ush' part in the picture :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 21 Oct 2012 21:40

Watch the below two videos, first one is about Prithvi and the second one is an LCM which at 0.06 secs shows a truck, my question is can the Prithvi TEL be parked in an LCM to fire off the missile? Platform stability is an issue and that's where the Dhanush launch system comes in handy.





if a 'shipping container' is placed around the missile, the flames during launch are directed upwards just like in a VLS hot launch as shown in the below SM3 launch


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nakul » 21 Oct 2012 21:59

Russia has done something similar with the Klub cruise missile.



We already have the technology to launch from rail wagons & ships. Adopting such a system for ballistic missiles is not impossible.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 21 Oct 2012 22:09

Reusable missile is an oxymoron, it has to be a some kind of a UCAV for it to be re-usable unless we are talking about parachute recoverable booster component while the secondary vehicle including the payload will be expendable.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 21 Oct 2012 23:16

The Prithvi/Dhanush TELs on LCMs are useful in these scenarios,

1) Due to the LCMs low draft they can be put in India's northern rivers targeting them would be difficult due to constant change in position and small size, the ro-ro style loading on the LCMs makes logistics easier, a C-17 could land anywhere close to the river systems to let the TELs travel to the waiting LCMs. we will have the numbers advantage.

2) They could be play the role of Missile boats after the surface component of PN is wiped out, due to their fast nature torpedoing them wouldn't be easy, making this better would be when the LCMs evolve into catamarans yet be able to be carried by the future LPDs since Jalashwa is restricted to training roles anyways

3) With the Prithvi in the ABM role, they can be placed along the TSP coast to take out their BM's in boost phase, don't need to spend on large warships to serve similar purposes

4) The Dhanush stabilizer designed for a standard sized container will be useful for other missile type TELs as well


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