Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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yantra
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby yantra » 21 Nov 2012 21:22

Singha wrote:a pumpjet propulsor might need more power. someone has got to force this water into the funnel


It funnels water through a lampshade causing an increase in pressure at the locations where the blades slices through the fluid media. This increase in pressure delays the onset of cavitation. Cavitation happens when vaccuum "bubbles" form at the trailing edges of the blades when they travel through the liquid faster than the water can rush back in to fill the void they leave as they pass. As pressures increase, the propeller at which the onset of cavitation occurs also increases. This is why subs are "silent" up to a higher speeds as they dive deeper.

The lamp shade also shields the sound made by the propeller in most of the lateral directions. This makes the sub quieter laterally but may increase their sound signature longtidually -- especially dead astern.

The Ohios are very quiet with or without a pumpjet propulsor. They are quiet enough that the soviets are said to have never tracked one after it dives in deep water. One of the features of the submarine is that at slow speeds (low reactor output) the coolants are circulated through the core through natural convection without any pumps being used. The Ohios spent most their time at very slow speeds while on patrol. At 3~5 knots, it is doubtful if a pumpjet makes a difference.


Is it very difficult to get a thermal signature of the sub in such a case (discharging warm/hot water, used as coolant, into the sea)?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Nov 2012 21:37

the coolant in any reactor will be a sealed system I think because the water is flowing over the rods and is radioactive. the steam will pass in sealed pipes through another vessel where non-radioactive water outside is heated to steam and this 2nd stage steam drives the turbine , gets cooled somewhere and fed back again.

I am sure they arrange for cooling any hot water discharge to ambient sea temp. there are even strict procedures about disposing off kitchen waste per my reading...they are not allowed to float up and leave a trail.

cost is not an issue - ohio subs have a gym for employees with all eqpt like treadmill isolated from floor on hydraulic jacks.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 22 Nov 2012 01:20

the higher the efficiency of heat exchanger, the better is the power generation. sodium cooled fast reactors could have direct contact from liquid metal to water is an advanced choice, perhaps.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 22 Nov 2012 02:01

As discussed above there will be an interphase liquid which will cool the reactor coolant.
This interphase liquid, usually treated fresh water will then be cooled with sea water. The copious amounts of sea water that are used to cool the intermediate coolant, ensure that the difference in seawater temperature, in and out,of the heat exchanger is 2-5 deg c, if this is discharged 20-30 meters below sea surface it will be very difficult to detect by airborne sensors. Especially in the tropics where there is a large difference in temp between the surface and 20 mtrs below it. There is a possibility of the steam condensate cooling system and this system being linked making it quite a complicated system.

Sorry for being OT this shoud not have been in the missile thread.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby yantra » 22 Nov 2012 03:08

Eric Leiderman wrote:... The copious amounts of sea water that are used to cool the intermediate coolant, ensure that the difference in seawater temperature, in and out,of the heat exchanger is 2-5 deg c, if this is discharged 20-30 meters below sea surface it will be very difficult to detect by airborne sensors.


Thanks Eric and others. I should have clarified in my post - I was talking about the last stage coolant. Your explanation helps. Sorry for the OT question!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 22 Nov 2012 12:39

Real-time Trial of Interceptor and Simulated Missiles on Nov. 23 - T.S.Subramanian in The Hindu
The interceptor missile launch scheduled for November 23 from the Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast will be a novel mission. It will feature an electronically simulated attacker missile coming from a distance of 2,000 km and also a real missile launched from Chandipur in Odisha.

While no interceptor will be fired against the imaginary attacker everything will be simulated up to T minus zero second as if commands were given to bring it down. A real interceptor will take off from the Wheeler Island to bring down the actual missile launched from Chandipur. This interceptor will pounce on the real attacker at a height of 15 km to 16 km in what is called the endo-atomosphere. “This is the first time we will be testing a scenario in real time where everything will be done as if we are launching a missile against an electronic target missile and launch in parallel an actual missile against a real target missile,” said Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The simulated and the real scenarios would be running in parallel. Since no distance of 2,000 km was available in the country from where a real missile, simulating the trajectory of an enemy missile, could be launched, it would be a simulated missile, he added. Two radars will process the simulated and real missiles and assign the launchers to take care of them.

“The Mission Control Centre will process the two missiles and identify in real time which launcher is best suited to fire its missile against which target. Since one of the two attackers is an imaginary [electronically simulated] missile, we will not be firing a missile against that. But we will be going to the point of firing up to T-0,” Mr. Chander said.

The missile trial on November 23 aimed at “a deployable configuration” to intercept multiple adversarial missiles raining down on India. “We are not able to launch live targets simultaneously because of the limitations of range and geometry. That is, since distances are not available, we are not able to fire two target missiles simultaneously,” he explained.

Mr. Chander said: “In a real scenario, multiple ballistic missiles may be coming towards India which need to be handled. Our radars can track more than 200 missiles simultaneously. When multiple launchers are deployed, they can handle multiple missiles fired at us. We should be able to track them, process the signals, identify which is a threat and assign the specific launcher-missile that is best suited to intercept them. So far all our interceptor flight-trials have been one missile against one target … So the forthcoming interceptor mission would give the DRDO team a lot of confidence to simultaneously handle multiple targets.” The DRDO was trying to get a floating test range [ship], and radars and launchers would be based on that vessel, he said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vipul » 22 Nov 2012 19:40

The future planned simultaneous Endo/Exo test (was scheduled for Dec 2011) would cause browning material to appear in the Endo-Exo zone of a lot of pants in Shitistan.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Nov 2012 23:01

“We are not able to launch live targets simultaneously because of the limitations of range and geometry. That is, since distances are not available, we are not able to fire two target missiles simultaneously,” he explained.
Could we not place interceptor batteries in A&N and launch targets from the mainland?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Brando » 23 Nov 2012 03:07

Should the DRDO be able to integrate this BMD system Endo/Exo interceptors and the Barak - 8 SAM with the required radars on a destroyer, it would offer the IN a formidable theater Air defense capability ala Aegis that could be part of a future IN CVBG/CSG. However, it is hard to say how good this BMD system would be against a hypersonic maneuvering kill vehicles like the DF-21's warhead at this stage.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 23 Nov 2012 07:47

Iron Dome for Desh?

Interesting it is seen as a counter for Nasr as well

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 23 Nov 2012 07:48

Akash should be enough for Nasr. what they need it good early detection capability

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 23 Nov 2012 07:56

^^^

Akash is better utilized for maneuvering targets, and Nasr is a short range ballistic rocket

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhik » 23 Nov 2012 09:21

vasu raya wrote:Iron Dome for Desh?

Interesting it is seen as a counter for Nasr as well

Looks more like a advertisement. The LeT launching home made rockets at us should hardly be a worry when we have the conventional Pakistani army launching proper artillery projectiles even during a so called "ceasefire".

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby keshavchandra » 23 Nov 2012 09:42

Eagerly waiting for today's BMD test results.:)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Nov 2012 12:43

if it has hasn't happenned till now, it will probably not happen today

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Arav » 23 Nov 2012 13:14

News Flash: India test fires supersonic interceptor missile

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Arav » 23 Nov 2012 13:40

India successfully test fires supersonic interceptor missile: India today successfully test-fired an indigenously developed supersonic interceptor missile, capable of destroying a hostile ballistic missile, from a test range off the Odisha coast.

"At around 12.52 hours, the interceptor hit the target missile successfully at an altitude of about 15 kilometres," DRDO spokesman Ravi Kumar Gupta said.

India is working towards development of a multi-layer Ballistic Missile Defence system. The test was conducted to validate various parameters of the interceptor in flight mode, said a defence source.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby anmol » 23 Nov 2012 13:45

:D :D :D

WHERE IS MY LUNGI..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 23 Nov 2012 13:56

India on Friday test-fired a ballistic missile interceptor from a defence base in Odisha. The indigenous Advanced Air Defence (AAD) endo-atmospheric interceptor missile was fired from Wheeler Island off the coast near Dhamra in Bhadrak district and killed an incoming ballistic missile that was launched from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea in Balasore.

It is a developmental trial, a defence scientist involved in the exercise had said earlier. India is developing the interceptors which have been successfully tested several times in the past, to provide air-shield to important Indian cities against hostile attacks.Senior defence scientists, including VK Saraswat, the chief of Defence Research and Development Organisation and the scientific advisor to Defence Minister AK Antony, oversaw the launch.
During the exercise, a modified surface-to-surface Prithvi missile acted as a hostile target and lifted off from ITR at Chandipur-on-sea, about 230 km from here.


Link :D :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Chinmayanand » 23 Nov 2012 14:17

The Ghauri's and Ghajnavi's will be intercepted by Prithvi ( Raj Chauhan) yet again. History repeats itself.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Nov 2012 14:20

I am awaiting the first test of the big sticks AD1 and AD2 - capable of taking on DF21x class missiles.
probably swing role ASAT weapons against LEO & MEO sats as well :twisted:

it is time...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Arav » 23 Nov 2012 14:43

Interceptor missile scores a direct again

Signalling India’s readiness to deploy the home-grown Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system in the near future, an advanced interceptor missile destroyed an incoming target missile in a direct hit at an altitude of 15 km over the Bay of Bengal on Friday.

In Friday’s mission, missile technologists from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for the first time tested the configuration for destroying an incoming actual missile and another electronically simulated missile.

According to top DRDO sources, the electronically simulated target which mimicked a missile coming from a distance of 1500 km, was electronically hit at an altitude of 120 km.

Within minutes of the launch of the real attacker missile, a modified surface-to-surface Prithvi from Chandipur, the actual interceptor , Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile took off from Wheeler Island and destroyed the ‘hostile’ missile at an altitude of 15 km in the endo-atmosphere at 12.52 p.m.

As soon as target missile was launched, the Long-Range Tracking Radars and the Multi-Functional Radars tracked it and passed on the data to the guidance computer to launch the AAD, which homed on to the target missile and pulverised it.

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister V.K. Saraswat, Chief Controller, (Missiles and Strategic Systems), Avinash Chander, Associate Director, Research Centre Imarat, Sateesh Reddy and Programme Director, (AD Mission) Adalat Ali were present.

Celebrations broke out at Wheeler Island following the success of the mission, which was the eighth ballistic interceptor missile test. So far seven missions have been successful and one of them, the first one was conducted in exo-atmopshere at an altitude of 48 km in November 2006.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 23 Nov 2012 16:04

was electronically hit at an altitude of 120 km


Before the first actual BMD test (exo-atm) was carried out in 2006, interception was done electronically as done today.



Asked what improvements were made in this interceptor mission, Dr. Saraswat said the modified Prithvi missile would have a higher velocity.

“We have improved the accuracy of the interception in the endo-atmosphere… The interceptor will be launched in a hit-to-kill mode,” he added.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nash » 23 Nov 2012 17:58

that sound awesome and it really need a lungi dance and lots of mithai..

may be january next year they test endo one in simulated mode and exo one in actual mode.

but IIRC, why there is only one test for exo-interceptor..., in this BMD system PAD(may be PDV) is the real mystery one.

Its range is another mystery,if the altitude is 120Km then its range would be ~200 KM.


ANY VIDEO OF THIS TEST.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 23 Nov 2012 18:32

India proves capability of missile defence system

India on Friday demonstrated its capability to intercept multiple missile attacks when an a real interceptor destroyed an incoming target missile in endo-atmosphere at a height of 15 km over the Bay of Bengal and another simulated 'hostile' missile was killed in exo-atmosphere at 120 km almost simultaneously.

This was the first time that missile technologists from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) conducted such an exercise to test the efficacy of the Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system in near deployable configuration against more than a single missile attack.

In less than five minutes of the launch of the real attacker missile, a modifiied Prithvi from Chandipur, the intercepetor, Advanced Air Defence (AAD), was fired from the Wheeler Island. Travelling at a supersonic speed of 4.5 Mach, the interceptor equipped with a unique directional warhead , homed on to the attacker missile and destroyed in a "hit-to-kill" mode at an altitude of 14.7 km in endo-atmosphere at 12.52 pm.The attacker Prihvi missile had a range of 600 km to 1,000 km.

As the AAD came close to the attacker missile, its warhead exploded and smashed the latter to smithereens.

Almost parallelly the radars tracked another incoming missile of range of 1,500 to 2,000 km, simulated eleteronically. It was intercepted too and destroyed electronically by another interceptor missile in the exo-atmosphere.

"We are now in a position to deploy the system"

An elated Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister V.K. Saraswat told The Hindu from Wheeler Island later that the mission showed the capability of the BMD system to engage multiple targets. He said the target missile was completely destroyed in an an outstanding achievement.

"We are now in a position to deploy the system", he said and added the first phase of the two-layered Ballistic Missile Defence system to intercept and destory incoming ememy missiles in endo and exo-atmosphere would be deployed by 2013-14. The first phase envisages to provide protection against enemy ballistic missiles of upto 2,000 km range.

He said the maturity of all the BMD technologies was demonstrated in today's mission, including the directional warhead, radio-frequency seeker as also various networks.

According to Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, two major technologies were used for the first time-- an indigenously-built fibre optic gyro-based INS system and a new class of warhead to provide a much higher velocity and better penetration and damage.

He said the next interceptor ballistic missile test for an exo-atmospheric interception of an incoming target missile would be conducted in January next.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony congratulated DRDO scientists on the success of the mission.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 23 Nov 2012 18:41


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 23 Nov 2012 19:22

Woooooow!!!! congrats DRDO!

gangnam ishtyle dance...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 23 Nov 2012 19:37

While at BMD System level all 4 missiles are different and tracked as such and interceptors guided separately at the test planning level, a single 1500km ranged target missile's trajectory is probably simulated by both the exo-atmospheric simulated target and the endo-atmospheric Prithvi missile so interception can be done at two levels, the near simultaneous interceptions suggests such sequence. (This could also be due to the launch of both AAD and the virtual PDV from the same launch group protecting a city). if the exo interceptor and its target were real then AAD might be left starving.

The RLG on the target Prithvi suggests simulation of an accurate longer ranged missile

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 23 Nov 2012 19:39

Interesting top kill... I am sure, we would have more test from other angles.. one at least each quadrant in a 3d space.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kulhari » 23 Nov 2012 19:42

Mein kayaa Bale bale...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 23 Nov 2012 19:48

abhik wrote:
vasu raya wrote:Iron Dome for Desh?

Interesting it is seen as a counter for Nasr as well

Looks more like a advertisement. The LeT launching home made rockets at us should hardly be a worry when we have the conventional Pakistani army launching proper artillery projectiles even during a so called "ceasefire".


Iron Dome is able to trace the small rockets trajectory in real time and probably picks up the target's launch early enough to be able to intercept it, for an MBRL or a artillery gun after they fire, their location can be traced back and the interceptor rocket could be made to destroy it. This quick reaction system could replace the current method using fire finding radars to locate the firing positions and then responding with artillery of our own to silence or destroy them, after waiting for due permission Or we can convey at the flag meetings that automated systems are being put in place and ceasefire violations can cause them to be triggered.

The enemy's trigger happy nature will receive a negative feedback when their artillery itself is being knocked off. While the usual 40km ranged artillery gun is well within the range of a 70km Iron Dome rocket, the latter's expensive interceptor gives us value if the artillery gun is destroyed and not the individual rounds.

Given the long border, the number of Iron Dome batteries needed might be high, Rudra mounted interceptor rockets might be handy :P

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 23 Nov 2012 19:51

recent reports projects iron dome is only 80% max efficient/effective.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 23 Nov 2012 20:04

The moment I saw Iron dome intercepts Hamas GI pipe rockets

I thought our hyper active foreign agents ( of arms suppliers) will start a press campaign to buy it.

I even thought that Israel optimizes every situation into commercial success


When are we going to learn and export INSAS rifles to democratic republic of Congo civil war?
We can do barter for mining rights if they don't have cash

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 23 Nov 2012 20:10

Lets test them out in the field, instead of Pokhran it could be Samba and/or Akhnoor sectors etc, all ceasefire violations can validate the system and we will know for sure whether to pursue this development track in desi labs with Israeli exchange scientists or not

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kit » 23 Nov 2012 20:32

Was the test a Hit to Kill ? .. warhead seems to be a directional one...seems yes ..good :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23360 » 23 Nov 2012 21:36

Iron Dome is costly and not yet matured to be used on our border areas. ISR has to put whatever is available to protect its civilian areas.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 23 Nov 2012 23:46


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby suryag » 24 Nov 2012 02:49

The second video is scary :(
at some point of time i did work on the sw that predicts the incoming stuff and possible path to it never knew it was of such great importance

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 24 Nov 2012 03:08

one thing is the prediction, and the other thing is actuality - predictions helps only for a small period of time especially mid course game plan changes.. actual tracking, scanning and locking systems take the cake.

but heck, none other than maasa have complete systems in place to detect a launch. If we can deploy a system using satellites, large array ground setups, it would be awesome beginning.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 24 Nov 2012 09:56

Hearing this for the first time,

The third layer is planned to tackle low-flying cruise missiles, artillery projectiles and rockets in the line with the overall aim to achieve "near 100% kill or interception probability".

"Look what is happening in the Middle-East (Hamas firing rockets at Israeli cities before the recent ceasefire)...hence, protection against low-cost, very close range threats is also needed. We have begun some initial work on the third-tier. We will try to integrate it with the BMD system once it fructifies," said Saraswat.

At present, Phase-I of the BMD system, with interceptors flying at 4.5 Mach high-supersonic speeds to intercept enemy missiles, is meant to tackle hostile missiles with a 2,000-km strike range.

As per DRDO's plans, Phase-II will be geared for taking on 5,000-km range missiles, virtually in the class of ICBMs (intercontinental ballistic missiles), with interceptors at hypersonic speeds of 6-7 Mach.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-tests-missile-shield-DRDO-says-it-will-be-operational-by-2014/articleshow/17341069.cms

Hope to see a surface to surface version of this interceptor missile (ala Iron Dome's Tamir missile) as well similar to how Prahaar was derived from AAD

About BMD Phase-1 while dual layer improves on the interception probability, the assumption is each interceptor type i.e., both AAD and PDV when acting alone are capable of knocking off a 2000km target missile


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