Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 24 Nov 2012 10:08

Nice Video of AAD Launch , the AAD interceptor is indeed very fast and the intercept took place post burn out when it was coasting.
Congratulations to DRDO on this sucessful event.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 24 Nov 2012 10:55

Interceptor's success - Real and Simulated - TS Subramanian in The Hindu
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dyna ... 78135g.jpg
In a demonstration of its growing missile strength, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on Friday shot down an electronically simulated “enemy” missile and a real attacker missile with an actual interceptor. While the electronically simulated missile, coming from a distance of 1,500 km was “electronically hit” at an altitude of 120 km, an Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile shot out from Wheeler Island, off the Odisha coast, and pulverised a modified Prithvi attacker missile, coming from Chandipur, at a height of 15 km. The four missiles were in the sky simultaneously and the two interceptions took place almost simultaneously.

The import of this mission’s success implies India’s ability to launch multiple interceptors to destroy several missiles coming in different directions from adversarial countries. The latest success, the seventh out of eight interceptor missions since 2006, signals that India is ready to deploy its ballistic missile defence (BMD) shield to protect its strategic and commercial assets.

A delighted V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister and DRDO Director-General, said from the Wheeler Island: “This kind of mission has been done only by the U.S. and Russia. We are probably the third country who can launch multiple interceptor missiles to handle various attackers. This is an important development in our BMD shield deployment.”

Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO Avinash Chander also asserted: “Simultaneously taking care of multiple missiles coming from various directions is part of any BMD system. We are happy that our confidence in our capability to do this has been demonstrated by this trial.

“Memorable day”

Associate Director, Research Centre, Imarat (RCI), Hyderabad G. Satheesh Reddy called it “a memorable day for the country’s defence scientists. It was fantastic to see on the monitors two interceptors attacking two targets with different ranges.” The on-board computers, the seeker and the control systems developed by the RCI performed smoothly, he said.

The mission took place like this: an electronic target, simulating an enemy missile coming from a place 1,500 km away, was launched. Radars picked it up, tracked it and launched an electronic interceptor missile which destroyed the digital attacker at an altitude of 120 km in what is called exo-atmosphere.

A real target (attacker) missile also blasted off from the Launch Complex III, Chandipur, Odisha, mimicking the trajectory of an enemy ballistic missile. This modified Prithvi had a range of 600 km to 1,000 km. Two radars detected it from its take-off and kept a tab on it. A guidance computer kept estimating its trajectory. When it was classified as a foe, an AAD interceptor took off from Wheeler Island. Armed with a novel warhead, it raced into the sky at a supersonic speed of 4.5 Mach. It pounced on the attacker at 12.52 p.m. at an altitude of 15 km in the endo-atmosphere. The interceptor’s proximity fuse sizzled into life, exploded the warhead and thereby the attacker became a charred wreckage in “a direct hit.” The interceptor had a radio-frequency seeker and its on-board computer guided it towards the target.


Dr. Saraswat said: “The mission’s precision shows that we have a robust system of interceptors, communication network, directional warhead, a potent radio proximity fuse and the seeker. All the major systems performed exceedingly well.” He added, “With this launch, phase 1 of the BMD shield is ready for deployment in 2013 or 2014. Phase 1 will protect strategic assets, political assets [political leaders’ residences] and commercial assets like Mumbai. Anywhere the country decides, we can deploy the interceptors and engage multiple attackers.”

Dr. Saraswat said long-range radars and more powerful interceptors were under development for the deployment of phase 2. The target missiles could come from a place 2,000 km away and India would be able to engage them in the exo-atmosphere at an altitude of 150 km.

“Major step”

Mr. Chander called the mission “a major step” towards the deployment of India’s BMD shield. “We are very close to taking it to deployment.” There were only the U.S., Russia, France, China and Israel who had the BMD system and India was the sixth country to have this capability.

Programme Director Adalat Ali called it “a multiple target, multiple interceptor scenario [taking place] in two layers – in the exo and endo-atmosphere.” The interceptors were in the air simultaneously and the interceptions too took place almost simultaneously, Mr. Ali said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 24 Nov 2012 11:03



kmkraoind
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 24 Nov 2012 13:17

In the second video. What is the image capturing method employed, and its very damn steady and focused. Is it IRST or some sort of indigenous tracking method developed by DRDO.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 24 Nov 2012 13:41

Why didnt they use 2 actual hostile missiles ???

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 24 Nov 2012 13:50

kmkraoind wrote:In the second video. What is the image capturing method employed, and its very damn steady and focused. Is it IRST or some sort of indigenous tracking method developed by DRDO.


Its Infra-Red tracking with Black-Hot coloration. Useful when you are looking at a daylight sky background.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 24 Nov 2012 13:51

krishnan wrote:Why didnt they use 2 actual hostile missiles ???


Check the previous pages. They had some information on this. Something about lack of suitable ranges IIRC.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 24 Nov 2012 13:57

Yes ...but they could have checked it from short range

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 24 Nov 2012 13:58

I agree. I wasn't fully convinced by the lack of range argument myself. But I don't have any additional data to allow me to speculate...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 24 Nov 2012 14:01

krishnan wrote:Yes ...but they could have checked it from short range


How can you make a BM travel 2000 Km. from a short range ???

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 24 Nov 2012 14:09

Sagar G wrote:
krishnan wrote:Yes ...but they could have checked it from short range


How can you make a BM travel 2000 Km. from a short range ???


I never said that

This modified Prithvi had a range of 600 km to 1,000 km.

make it Two modified Prithvi having a range of 600 km to 1,000 km.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 24 Nov 2012 14:17

They simulate the reentry velocity of a IRBM class missile with a range of 2000 km ( i.e 2.5 - 3 km/sec ) .....so modified Prithvi end up mimicking a Gauhri/Shaheen-2 class BM with similar reentry velocity

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 24 Nov 2012 14:36

krishnan wrote:
krishnan wrote:Yes ...but they could have checked it from short range


I never said that

This modified Prithvi had a range of 600 km to 1,000 km.

make it Two modified Prithvi having a range of 600 km to 1,000 km.


Answer to your query partially appears in the pic, http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dyna ... 78135g.jpg

Image

Here, if you notice, the apogee of modified Prithvi Target missile is lesser than 120 km. In BMD, 120 km is an important altitude for detection and interception. Highest apogee so far reached by Prithvi as Target missile is ~130 km. But that doesn't help much for understanding/executing interception closer to real scenario at 120 km altitude. Hope it answers your query.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 24 Nov 2012 14:48

Austin wrote:Nice Video of AAD Launch , the AAD interceptor is indeed very fast and the intercept took place post burn out when it was coasting.
Congratulations to DRDO on this sucessful event.


Glad to see that you can visually identify the difference. It appears much faster and faster than PAC-3 seen from clippings so far. Hope there is no Video tricks. :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 24 Nov 2012 14:54

Kudos for a successful interception. I hope DRDO can develop the AAD to handle missile saturation.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 24 Nov 2012 15:00

Kanson could be the video too , AFAIK PAC-3 does a maximum Mach 5+ and AAD does a max M 4.5

Sagar G
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 24 Nov 2012 15:01

krishnan wrote:I never said that

This modified Prithvi had a range of 600 km to 1,000 km.

make it Two modified Prithvi having a range of 600 km to 1,000 km.


Correct me if I am wrong but the modified prithvi mimics the final stages of an enemy ballistic missile. Prithvi missile emulating an enemy ballistic missile has always been detected right after it's launch as it has always been comfortably within the detection range of the radars, in a real scenario the tracking system wouldn't have this comfort, so to check at what point our radars pick up a BM coming from 2000 Km. away we would have to launch a BM from that distance. To do this I think the Dhanush has to be modified to be able to launch an Agni 2.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Nov 2012 17:16

they should be able to simulate that if they can mount the Agni1 launcher inplace of Dhanush imo.
fire it from southern bay of bengal and let it splash down near orissa where the tracking radar would attempt to see it coming over the horizon. if the tracking radar(s) can also be ship mounted, this can be done safer over the sea...probably what DRDO is asking for now

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nash » 24 Nov 2012 19:08

Singha wrote:they should be able to simulate that if they can mount the Agni1 launcher inplace of Dhanush imo.
fire it from southern bay of bengal and let it splash down near orissa where the tracking radar would attempt to see it coming over the horizon. if the tracking radar(s) can also be ship mounted, this can be done safer over the sea...probably what DRDO is asking for now


It will be good thing for us because this can lead us to to a sea based ABM system like AEGIS.And the warship we use for this system might be P-15B destroyer, which going to carry ERSAM of range 100+ and the speculative range of AAD is definitely 100+.

Also the time line for P-15B destroyer is in line with the Phase II of ABM, so starting with AAD it can be gradually upgraded to AD-1 or 2, which can intercept at high altitude.

This is just a speculation now but it can be good road map for BMD system to our country.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Will » 24 Nov 2012 19:18

Self deleted.
Last edited by Will on 24 Nov 2012 19:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 24 Nov 2012 19:21

The count down gives space to identify incoming is indeed a threat

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Vipul » 24 Nov 2012 20:15

DRDO developing missile launch site in Machilipatnam.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation is setting up a new missile launch site in Machilipatnam in Andhra Pradesh at an estimated investment of Rs 1,000 crore.

The defence organisation currently has launch facilities at the Chandipur and Wheeler Island locations in Balasore in Odisha, from where the long-range Agni series of missiles as well as the Prithvi and other shorter range missiles are test-fired.

“We have asked the Government of Andhra Pradesh to give us 260 acres of land to develop the facility. It will take a maximum of three years to be operationalised,” said V.K. Saraswat, Director-General of the defence organisation and Scientific Adviser to the Raksha Mantri.

He told newspersons here today that the Machilipatnam facility would complement the test range in Balasore. It would help in longer range missile launches as well as in carrying out tests for the Ballistic Missile Defence Shied wherein multiple missiles need to be launched for trials, the scientific adviser explained.

Asked about the energy and security issues raised by the Ministry of Petroleum on oil and gas exploration activity in areas neighbouring Machilipatnam on the East Coast, Saraswat said “they have been amicably sorted out”. “We are working with the State Government to firm up land acquisition,” he added.
Last edited by Vipul on 24 Nov 2012 20:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 24 Nov 2012 20:15

Singha wrote:they should be able to simulate that if they can mount the Agni1 launcher inplace of Dhanush imo.


IIRC Dhanush is the name of the stabilizing platform for the naval prithvi, they would have to tweak it so that it can stabilize the heavier Agni missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Nov 2012 21:00

two bigger missiles code named AD1 and AD2 above the PAD range are being worked on. one of them will be peer of the Thaad and tackle long range IRBMs, while the AD2 wishlist states ability to take down full blown ICBMs...a tall order, but AD1 is definitely doable.

what I'd like to see is a swing role cansisterized missile that be based on warhead type
- ASAT weapon
- ABM weapon
- ballistic missile with BGRV porpoising along the edge of space
- hypersonic edge of space cruise missile
- low flying medium range 3ton warhead terror missile using sensor fused bomblets

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shyamd » 24 Nov 2012 21:40

Congrats to all involved in the interception exercise.
-------------------------
vasu raya wrote:Iron Dome for Desh?

Old news: This news was released in 2010!
Despite all the propaganda that Iron dome is US funded, the truth is that the singaporeans paid and are the owners of the tech

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 24 Nov 2012 21:45

shyamd wrote:Despite all the propaganda that Iron dome is US funded, the truth is that the singaporeans paid and are the owners of the tech


How come ???

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 24 Nov 2012 22:08

If that news is old, then DRDO seems to have taken the initiative for local development presumably for cost reasons, my Q is if an interceptor can be launched by this quick reaction system, what are the possible reasons it can't be morphed into homing onto the artillery gun or MBRL firing them? it can still retain its primary role for Nasr kind of threats.

The image from Kanson's post shows different tracks for the two target missiles suggesting different engagement profiles for AAD & PDV but together likely form a system with a high probability of intercept.

Would like to see an air-launched ABM modded for boost phase intercept on the technology roadmap

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 25 Nov 2012 03:44

centre to come up in coastal Andhra Pradesh
Hyderabad: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) plans to set up a missile launch site in the coastal town of Machilipatnam in Andhra Pradesh with an investment of Rs. 1,000 crore.

DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat, who is also the scientific advisor to the defence minister, told reporters in Hyderabad on Friday that they had asked the state government to allot 260 acres of land to set up the long-range missile testing centre.

"As soon as the government clearance comes for land, we will start creating infrastructure. It will take three years to set up the centre," he said.

The DRDO currently has launch facilities at the Chandipur-on-Sea and Wheeler Island at Balasore in Odisha and they are used to test fire the long-range Agni series, Prithvi and other shorter range missiles.

Saraswat said the proposed facility at Machilipatnam would complement the test range in Balasore.

It would be used for launching long-range missiles and also in carrying out tests for the Ballistic Missile Defence Shield wherein multiple missiles need to be launched for trials.

As the proposed site in Rajhamundry falls under the Krishna-Godavari basin, the ministry of petroleum had raised energy and security issues in view of oil and gas exploration activity in the area.

The scientific advisor, however, said the DRDO had resolved issues with the petroleum ministry. "We have amicably sorted out the issue with them," he said.


DRDO developing missile launch site in Machilipatnam

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 25 Nov 2012 06:33

Main advantage of Iron Dome is not that it can intercept rockets, but each missile is very cheap. Supposedly even less than 40k there are reports that Israel can build Tamir for less than 10k as production is ramped up.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 25 Nov 2012 06:45

Israel's main population centers are located close enough to hamas / hezbollah zones for even crude bm21++ rockets to be a threat.

in our case, barring a few places like gurdaspur and amritsar in punjab , a few towns in J & K, the ranges are longer and so rockets will be more powerful. can Iron dome intercept such projectiles too?

focus of our limited funds appears to be protecting major metros for now. protecting tactical army formations is perhaps best done by smashing the sources of these rockets using WLRs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 25 Nov 2012 07:00

Not sure but based on reports Fajr-5 are 250 mm rockets (Pinaka is 214 mm and Smerch is 300 mm fyi) and they were intercepted successfully.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 25 Nov 2012 07:48

would be good if we had something integrated into the maitri/spyder/Akash2 framework rather than another system needing its own C3I, TELARs and crew.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Nov 2012 08:04

sure, India has a bit more design changes to be done for Arrow 3 range and speed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pentaiah » 25 Nov 2012 09:15

Initially even patriot system was much hyped during Gulf war I
Later the kill ratio was down graded

Always make locally and sell globally , that's the way Israel makes money so does PRC

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 25 Nov 2012 10:25

Only sub-saharan africa and beggars like pakis buy chinese weapons. Not really an competition to to Israel or any standard India should try to emulate.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby navneeet » 25 Nov 2012 12:08

Prithwiraj wrote:



courtesy: http://livefist.blogspot.com/



The second video is interesting. Especially if viewed frame by frame on 0:23 seconds. The actual interception. the point to note is that two dots approach from top (presumably the target), a slower dot (presumably the interceptor) explodes, and two dots identical to the top ones exit following the same trajectory at the bottom.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shyamd » 25 Nov 2012 13:36

Sagar G wrote:
shyamd wrote:Despite all the propaganda that Iron dome is US funded, the truth is that the singaporeans paid and are the owners of the tech


How come ???

Think about the size of Singapore

-------------------
Indian requirement is having PAD -> AAD -> LRSAM -> Akash -> other SRSAM

Layering. The iron dome was successful in blocking most of the rockets but some did get through and also I think they only used the system for population centres, not Israeli military bases.

Also when we were negotiating there were big doubts on its capabilities (whether it works) which is why India said we wanted it tested properly

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 25 Nov 2012 15:07

shyamd wrote:Think about the size of Singapore


You said that Singaporeans paid and are owner of the technology in Iron Dome, nowhere could I find any news about the involvement of Singapore in development of the system so how come you are saying that they are owner of the tech ???

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby NRao » 25 Nov 2012 15:15

Sagar G wrote:
shyamd wrote:Think about the size of Singapore


You said that Singaporeans paid and are owner of the technology in Iron Dome, nowhere could I find any news about the involvement of Singapore in development of the system so how come you are saying that they are owner of the tech ???


Even paid is speculative: MArch, 2010 :: Was Iron Dome defense system actually built for Singapore?

There are more recent articles that suggest that Singapore has already deployed some ID batteries. But i seems like a likely scenario.


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