Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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vasu raya
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 15 Dec 2012 23:30

From the news article on BMD

"Avinash Chander asserted: “This missile [AAD interceptor] broadly covers all the missiles deployed by Pakistan on the west, and a large number of missiles deployed in the north-east and in the immediate neighbourhood. In Phase II, we will be able to cover up to 5,000 km and it can handle all the missiles that are being deployed around us. We will be able to take care of all of them in numbers too.”

Many new technologies, too, were tested in the mission. The most critical one was the directional warhead which destroyed the target missile. The target missile was speeding towards India at a velocity of 3 to 4 km per second. The interceptor was going towards it at 1.5 to 2 km per second. The relative speeds were 4 to 5 km per second, where there was less than one-thousandth of a second for the interceptor’s directional warhead to explode.

“The timing and accuracy of the warhead should be within that kind of time frame. The time for the warhead to explode in the kill zone is effectively less than 1/100th of a second. This is one of the key technologies demonstrated and established in this test,” Avinash Chander said."


This is good news and probably is where the fiber-optic gyroscope on the AAD makes its mark due to its lagless integration. I was hoping for this on A2G missiles like Prahaar against Hardened aircraft shelters (HAS) with a lighter directional warhead exploding at the entrances and not brute force itself through the concrete. Even entrances of mountain-side tunnels used for storing TELs could be targeted.

From the recent Agni test,

"After a majestic lift-off, the missile followed the trajectory perfectly and splashed down near the intended target point in the Bay of Bengal with an accuracy of a few meters following a 10-minute flight. It was guided by on-board computers and navigated by the inertial navigation system."

With the stress on accuracy assuming its used for counter-force with conventional warheads.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Dec 2012 05:48

vivek_ahuja wrote:Hmm. Is there any way to confirm the information from this article via other sources?


None coz even the western sources have reprinted Izvestia .....no one is sure what kind of guidance does Kh-555/101 uses there are no official confirmation , suffice to say for brahmos INS and GLONASS is more than enough to give it exceptional accuracy under 300 km and above that Terminal Homing with ARH .....Dr Pillai is on record stating that GLONASS performance has been very good with Brahmos test

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Dec 2012 06:14

Some details on Brahmos ARH seeker from its OEM Granit ( use translator )
http://www.oborona.ru/includes/periodic ... tail.shtml

In the 80's of last century, concern began to create GOS fourth generation, to be used in a universal missile system "Onyx", having surface and submarine launched and implemented the principle of "shot - I forget." In this GSN number of new technical solutions. Use as a probe signal pulse phase-shift keyed to the restructuring of the carrier frequency of the sensing probe to a wide frequency range, the most effective in terms of anti-jamming, organically combined with the rest of the digital control system. This can significantly increase the detection range with designated antenna device dimensions and the same average power of the radiation and the simple pulse signals in the prior art. Detection range of class "cruiser" is not less than 50-70 km at extremely harsh weather conditions.

Board computer enables the processing of signals from the GOS, GOS mode control, the task of target selection in the concept, borrowed from the set of GSN "Granite", based on game theory, and issue commands to the missile control signals from the GOS with the level of enemy opposition. Regime introduced programmable height homing in the terminal phase of flight.

The export version of the GOS used in cruise missile "Yakhont" in Russian-Indian missile BRAHMOS, taken into service Indian Navy and Army.

Currently, concerns have developed GSN fifth generation, which significantly (several times) is superior in performance GOS fourth generation.

This seeker has two versions antenna device: power-driven and as a phased array (PAR). Comparative characteristics of GOS 5th generation GOS 4th generation:

- Reducing the amount of equipment in 2 times;

- Reduction of energy consumption by 2-3 times;

- Increasing range of the 2-fold;

- Increasing secrecy of 3 times;

- Expansion of the operating frequency range of 4-5;

- Increase the resolution of 8.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 16 Dec 2012 08:57

Avarachan wrote:India has uprated its BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles by installing the advanced satellite navigation systems from Russia's Kh-555 and Kh-101 strategic long-range cruise missiles, adding GPS-GLONASS technology to the existing doppler-inertial platform, Izvestia reported . . .

Avarachan, I am not sure if Brahmos incorporates precision satnav kits from Russian cruise missiles. But, in December 2011, The Hindu reported that Russia had at last agreed to part with precision codes from Glonass for a cost consideration and this deal was signed a day before Man Mohan Singh's visit to Russia. This was an initiative by the NSA, Shiv Shankar Menon, the report said. Another report said that "During their bilateral talks, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Medvedev appreciated the progress being made in India’s utilisation of GLONASS."

There was another news item, in September this year, of VK. Saraswat receiving a GAGAN-GLONASS integrated satnav system from a Bengaluru-based company.

The Brahmos story appeared in October this year.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 16 Dec 2012 09:47

both the new RLG-INS and MINGS are capable of receiving tri constellation updates to remove accumulated errors.


The Russians it seems might want to turn GLONASS into a joint resource.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby svinayak » 16 Dec 2012 11:13

D Roy wrote:both the new RLG-INS and MINGS are capable of receiving tri constellation updates to remove accumulated errors.


The Russians it seems might want to turn GLONASS into a joint resource.

Russians want to outsource the cost of ownership to outside country just like they reduced their cost of development of SU35. Good strategy for long run but India has to own the IP and future version of its own

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby D Roy » 16 Dec 2012 11:21

Absolutely,

IRNSS will be rolled out soon as well. IRNSS-I is scheduled for launch in 2013 itself.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Dec 2012 02:39

Do we know which launcher will launch IRNSS? Since its a heavy satellite in Geo orbit, can PSLV do the trick?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Dec 2012 02:44

If Glonass precision codes are indeed available (as seems indicated by the mini-kit developed by the B'lore company), I hope we will see a Sudarshan like initiative to build standoff weapons by adding a Glonass + glide kit to the dumb bombs

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Dec 2012 04:37

+1 - it must be a national mission like Agni series to produce tens of 1000s of these desi JDAMs and wing range extention kits. greatly increases lethality and improves pilot safety. mating the Nag IIR seeker and its algorithm to id vehicles or anything else defined, gives us a SDB/ AASM like capability on the cheap.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 20 Dec 2012 10:35

Prithvi missile fired Thursday morning at 921 IST, in salvo mode. Does this mean that more than one was fired simultaneously? Not able to copy and paste link for some reason. ( From the Hindu newspaper)


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Dec 2012 12:09

Here is the same new from Chindu
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/nuclear-capable-prithviii-testfired-successfully/article4220913.ece
What is this Salvo Mode? did they fire one REAL missile and fired multiple electronic missiles?
almost every news outlet mentions a "Twine" engine? could it be a spelling mistake or is there really an engine category called "TWINE"?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 20 Dec 2012 12:34

Balasore, Orissa: Two Prithvi-II nuclear-capable ballistic missiles with a strike range of 350 km were successfully test-fired in an hour's gap on Wednesday as part of user trials by the Army from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur off Orissa coast.

"Two indigenously developed surface-to-surface Prithvi-II missiles were test-fired from the ITR and both the trials were fully successful," ITR Director S P Dash said.

The missiles, mounted on mobile launchers and aimed at different targets, were test-fired from launch complex-3 in the ITR at around 0815 and 0915 hrs, defence sources said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 20 Dec 2012 12:37

Thats hardly a "solvo" ... but what can you expect from DDM

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 20 Dec 2012 12:46

krishnan wrote:Thats hardly a "solvo" ... but what can you expect from DDM


Well, I'm sure SFC will not fire 10-12 missiles to test the Salvo mode...firing two missiles in the required gap and simulating the SOP for salvo launch should suffice from training perspective...after all, a Salvo mode or Mode X is likely to be much more than simply firing multiple missiles...IMO, it is likely to be sum-total of lot of things coming together to allow a Salvo being fired.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Will » 20 Dec 2012 17:46

vasu raya wrote:From the news article on BMD

"Avinash Chander asserted: “This missile [AAD interceptor] broadly covers all the missiles deployed by Pakistan on the west, and a large number of missiles deployed in the north-east and in the immediate neighbourhood. In Phase II, we will be able to cover up to 5,000 km and it can handle all the missiles that are being deployed around us. We will be able to take care of all of them in numbers too.”

Many new technologies, too, were tested in the mission. The most critical one was the directional warhead which destroyed the target missile. The target missile was speeding towards India at a velocity of 3 to 4 km per second. The interceptor was going towards it at 1.5 to 2 km per second. The relative speeds were 4 to 5 km per second, where there was less than one-thousandth of a second for the interceptor’s directional warhead to explode.

“The timing and accuracy of the warhead should be within that kind of time frame. The time for the warhead to explode in the kill zone is effectively less than 1/100th of a second. This is one of the key technologies demonstrated and established in this test,” Avinash Chander said."


This is good news and probably is where the fiber-optic gyroscope on the AAD makes its mark due to its lagless integration. I was hoping for this on A2G missiles like Prahaar against Hardened aircraft shelters (HAS) with a lighter directional warhead exploding at the entrances and not brute force itself through the concrete. Even entrances of mountain-side tunnels used for storing TELs could be targeted.

From the recent Agni test,

"After a majestic lift-off, the missile followed the trajectory perfectly and splashed down near the intended target point in the Bay of Bengal with an accuracy of a few meters following a 10-minute flight. It was guided by on-board computers and navigated by the inertial navigation system."

With the stress on accuracy assuming its used for counter-force with conventional warheads.


Well that takes care of the Hit to Kill debate :(

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 20 Dec 2012 21:25

^^^

Gurus can comment, maybe its to do with the need for X-band AESA radars. Isn't a directional warhead more reliable than a Hit-to-Kill one and carries only a small weight penalty.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Dec 2012 21:29

rohitvats wrote:
krishnan wrote:Thats hardly a "solvo" ... but what can you expect from DDM
Well, I'm sure SFC will not fire 10-12 missiles to test the Salvo mode...firing two missiles in the required gap and simulating the SOP for salvo launch should suffice from training perspective...after all, a Salvo mode or Mode X is likely to be much more than simply firing multiple missiles...IMO, it is likely to be sum-total of lot of things coming together to allow a Salvo being fired.

Well said Rohit... the ability of SFC to respond to the request to launch multiple targets, program it into the targetting system and firing two missiles within the stipulated time is the key... for all you know they might have prepped 15 missiles/launchers but then fired away only TWO...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Dec 2012 21:32

Shrinivasan wrote:almost every news outlet mentions a "Twine" engine? could it be a spelling mistake or is there really an engine category called "TWINE"?

What is this Twine engine? most reports carried this immediately after the test but seemed to have dropped it as the day progressed. BTB, isn't Prithvi (P-II) a single staged missile? I thought only Dhanush (P-III) is a dual stage one... gurulog please indulge my pooch...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 20 Dec 2012 21:36

Is Prithvi really 1M in diameter? some sources have listed it precisely as 110cm.. Methinks it should be more 1M circumference rather than diameter... which would make it a brick (9m length by 1m diameter is not exactly a very streamlined body)... in all the pictures published, the missile doesn't look stubby (refer DefExpo or RD parade pics where we have SDRE SFC/Arty jawans standing ramrod straight next to the missile)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2012 02:40

I am more thinking on prithvi++ being a platform for tech demonstrations.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby rajanb » 21 Dec 2012 10:20

krishnan wrote:Thats hardly a "solvo" ... but what can you expect from DDM


Simulation software would have been used. Fire the first Prithvi, then ripple fire a few and follow it up with a second Prithvi and then a few more simulated ones. Somewhat similiar to when they did the simulation of a BDM.

That would give them a fair idea if in real time they could fire a salvo of larger numbers.

In 2010, they had doen a salvo of two Prithvis. This would have been an improvement on that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 21 Dec 2012 16:59

astra test fired

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/299 ... astra.html

Prasad said it was a development trial of the missile and the target was an unmanned aerial vehicle which was flown from the same base few minutes before the launch of the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Dec 2012 17:02

Good news at last, wonder when it will be tested from an aircraft.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2012 17:04

soon we may hear they hit a supersonic target.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 21 Dec 2012 17:04

Interesting take, seriously this is heights of pessimism, the test are conducted for the reason to fine tune the readiness

http://newindianexpress.com/states/odis ... 388550.ece

So far, Prithvi class of missiles has been test launched at least 57 times from this test range and in the last three years it has failed to give desired results four times.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Dec 2012 18:24

From the above link, what he describes is failure, but we have have disclosed our failures in the past, so I doubt we will be covering this up.

“Though the target was set for the missile to cover its full operational range of 350 km, the missile managed to cover only 278 km. It failed to attain the desired height and had a deviation in its trajectory. The vehicle too did not adhere to the preordained flight path,” the source claimed.



Prithvi-II not all that successful

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Chinmayanand » 21 Dec 2012 18:40

Nitesh wrote:
So far, Prithvi class of missiles has been test launched at least 57 times from this test range and in the last three years it has failed to give desired results four times.


4 failures out of 57 launches means 53 successful tests out of 57.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 21 Dec 2012 18:46

^ It says 57 launches from the test range not 57 launches in 3 years. It goes on to say 4 launches in 3 years failed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 21 Dec 2012 19:13

^^ This Rout person seems to have some real big sources at ITR.

He always seems to have the inside info on most tests( esp the failed ones) which only days later trickle out to the rest.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nrshah » 21 Dec 2012 19:34

sum wrote:^^ This Rout person seems to have some real big sources at ITR.

He always seems to have the inside info on most tests( esp the failed ones) which only days later trickle out to the rest.


Tried posting a comment on the article asking details about sources and no of missiles fired in last 3 years to correct understand success ratio of missile, but some how every time it shows error. Perhaps not wanting to take comment on BS

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 21 Dec 2012 20:35

at last some news about astra ........................:)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Will » 21 Dec 2012 21:04

So many tests going on. Makes you wonder what they are really testing :P

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2012 22:20

quoting the failure is fine, but what is the point of discussion?

without failure, there is nothing to learn. if everything is successful, then it is too good to be true.

the problem with all these aam reporting is pain for BR.. we expect more tech details.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nash » 21 Dec 2012 22:43

may be krishnan ji can put more light on this test of astra , timing of this test is very much in timeline of his article:

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12/bv ... p-for.html

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 22 Dec 2012 00:32

Meanwhile,

ADE has put out a tender to NAL for "Modification of 1:7 scale wind tunnel model of Unmanned Cruise Vehicle as per the Specifications given in Appendix-A".

So you guys can have a look at what the modified Nirbhay is going to look like in Appendix-A. :wink: It is "Unmanned Cruise Vehicle with protrusions and modifications to the earlier configuration".

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 22 Dec 2012 00:44

indranilroy wrote:Meanwhile,

ADE has put out a tender to NAL for "Modification of 1:7 scale wind tunnel model of Unmanned Cruise Vehicle as per the Specifications given in Appendix-A".

So you guys can have a look at what the modified Nirbhay is going to look like in Appendix-A. :wink: It is "Unmanned Cruise Vehicle with protrusions and modifications to the earlier configuration".


Great find! Probably a BR scoop.

But what does it mean when wind tunnel modification tenders are only coming out now? Does it mean they're that far away from a live trial?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 22 Dec 2012 00:48

That can be the case. But most probably, they will test some with the earlier configuration :-)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Dec 2012 01:28

indranilroy wrote:That can be the case. But most probably, they will test some with the earlier configuration :-)


It simply suggests the iterative process is advancing. That's all.

But yeah, this in no way suggests how close or far they are from the final testing prototype. For all we know, this might be the final design variation.

I like how the engine inlet has been recessed back into the tube of the missile. Will reduce frontal radar cross-section as well as drag. Similar in design to the Block IV Tomahawk.

On a separate note: why are our secret projects being released in such an "innocent" manner. I wonder if this is one the typical DRDO re-herrings designed to send us looking in one direction while the actual vehicle goes in another...

But whatever it is, it ain't stopping me! 8)

Here ya go: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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