PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Mr Wong,

I suspect you don't brush your teeth. Else you would have glanced down at your tooth paste carton. Please find good dentist. Really! Mexico & Hungary, those Hi-Tech paradises! That is the best you can do.

Panda thinks that injection molding technology is a moon landing. :rotfl: India does not have the widget market yet. The reason is, we don't have the enormous capital machine to pre-emptively built $Billion widget factory @ 0% interest rate and no repayment grants. We will build them when our people have the money to buy a billion widgets. That is how our auto industry grew and our cellphone industry grew as well. We build for the domestic market and send the 30% surplus for exports.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

wong wrote:Once a month, I take my kids to McD's and do the Happy Meal test.
If you take your kids to McDs every month, they'll grow up into fine customers of Indian made medicines - each of which they'll have to consume daily and cost more than the plastic toy they're getting once a month now - when the accumulated effects of that junk hit their bodies as adults :)
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gakakkad »

good going wong.. Patrons like you have ensured , that us cardiologists drive Porches generation after generation...Hail McDonald.. where would I be without you...
Advait
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 01 Apr 2011 09:59

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Advait »

Guys, making jokes about Wong's kids getting sick is not going to change the fact that China is ahead of us. :(

India has 90% of China's population but only 10% of auto sales. There are many more such consumption statistics which show that the average Chinese is doing better than the average Indian. :cry:

I am not going trying to put our country down, put progress can happen only when we acknowledge the facts instead of making snide remarks and keep patting ourselves on the back.

We, the aam-adami, have to start demanding more of our government, and mock the notion being peddled by our intellectuals (using that term very loosely here) that we can just build some IT-Vity, medical tourism, softpower economy and everything will turn out well.

One of these days, I am going to post my POV/rant/ manifesto here to clarify what I meant here and on other posts. Till then, peace out 8)
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gakakkad »

^^ advait get your stats right..India sold 4 million autos last year..
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12270
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Pratyush »

I just finished Capitalism with Chinese characteristics. The book seems to be a good and well researched work. I say this in absene of having read any thing else of PRC economy.

Having said so, the author is not very impressed with Shanghai model till 2008. Don't know what will be his assessment be now.

while reading I felt sorry for the destruction of the Private TVEs. Post Tienanmen. Had the PRC not cracked down on them. Their economy in my estimate would have easily be a trillion more in real $ terms as compared to today.

I am great-full for the self inflected wound on the PRC economy.
Advait
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 01 Apr 2011 09:59

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Advait »

gakakkad wrote:^^ advait get your stats right..India sold 4 million autos last year..
The figure you are talking about is total production of automobiles which includes trucks & buses as well as exports.

I meant the domestic passenger vehicle sales category, which according to SIAM was 2.5 million in 2010-11.

Another report from CNBC on the top ten auto markets says India's 2011 figure was 2.9 million and China's was 17.7 i.e. Indian market was 16% of China's.

Also, as far as I know, there is no Tata Nano or RE60 in China neither is there a rush among the automakers there to produce ever cheaper models. An important indicator of how many people are truly middle class.

Btw, the car ownership rate for India is 12/1000 and for China is 128/1000.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

Advait, please stop derailing the thread. There's no need to bring in relative moralities. Regardless of whether the PRC is ahead or behind us, this thread is about critically analyzing them.
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gakakkad »


Another report from CNBC on the top ten auto markets says India's 2011 figure was 2.9 million and China's was 17.7 i.e. Indian market was 16% of China's.
you are comparing Indian CAR MANUFACTURING with Chinese TOTAL AUTO MANUFACTURING (which includes trucks and CVs)..

Here are the latest stats from the AUTHORITY IN the AUTO SEGMENT...Indian AURO MANUFACTURING GREW AT 10% last year even though last year was bad due to srikes...CHINESE AUTO INDUSTRY Has not be growing in volume for a few years now..WILL START DECLINING SOON...

http://oica.net/category/production-statistics/

Also, as far as I know, there is no Tata Nano or RE60 in China neither is there a rush among the automakers there to produce ever cheaper models. An important indicator of how many people are truly middle class.

Ever heard of geely ?


Advait , your post is just a random rant and googled stats...

Btw, the car ownership rate for India is 12/1000 and for China is 128/1000.
Chinese AUTO INDUSTRY is HIGHLY subsidized ... they have been giving 1500-3000rmb subsidies to car manufacturers ...

INDIAN auto INDUSTRY has been growing at 10-25% rate by volume for several years and will continue to do so.. NO growth in volumes in the CHINESE industry for years..see the OICA data...
Advait
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 01 Apr 2011 09:59

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Advait »

Suraj wrote:Advait, please stop derailing the thread. There's no need to bring in relative moralities. Regardless of whether the PRC is ahead or behind us, this thread is about critically analyzing them.
I am writing in facts and figures while others are making snide remarks, but that is not derailment. :roll:

You said "this thread is about critically analyzing them", but seems like what you want everybody to do is just criticize them.

Ok, I get it: All countries are wrong/in deep trouble, onlee we are great. :mrgreen:

Jai Ho.
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gakakkad »


I am writing in facts and figures while others are making snide remarks, but that is not derailment.
First you mentioned outdated figures of AUTO manufacturing... I corrected you.. Than you try and tell me that I stated cars+ trucks+ cv figures (in case you did not notice auto = cars+ trucks + cvs) .. Than you compare Indian car manufacturing figures with chinese total automobile production (Cars + trucks + cv figure)...I post a page from OICA showing you the correct stats .. Than you start trolling..

You say that China does not have a low cost project..Than I correct you that geely is attempting to copy Tata Nano ..(like they copied Bajaj pulsar) ...

Your initial hypothesis is that passenger Car manufacturing is reflective of the middle class.. My question to you is that since India produces almost as many passenger cars as US does , so is Indian middle class as big as that of US ?. In 2009 Indian car production exceeded that of US.. So as per your theory in 2009 Indian middle class would be bigger than unkil ..

If you want to talk about facts and figures ensure that you get them right ...And if you want to theorise something , ensure that it is not based on lahori logic...
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by harbans »

Sales in China are seen rising to 19.21 million vehicles this year, enough to pull past Europe's combined sales of 18.15 million, the Denver-based firm says.

Sales in India are projected to rise to 4.88 million vehicles by 2016 from 2.91 million last year. Sales are forecast at 6.73 million in 2020.
Kakkad ji, i am not seeing the point you are making. Whatever the subsidy, China does indeed sell more cars than India domestically. Lets leave it at that. Advait ji is right in his statement Chinese sales are way beyond our present levels.

http://in.finance.yahoo.com/news/china- ... 34757.html
My question to you is that since India produces almost as many passenger cars as US does , so is Indian middle class as big as that of US ?
Just want to know, does it? I didn't know that. That is a surprise if it's true.
sha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 61
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by sha »

India passenger car sales in 2010/2011
Image

India and China auto sales in 2010/2011
Image
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gakakkad »


Just want to know, does it? I didn't know that. That is a surprise if it's true.
2011 stats from OICA.. “Organisation Internationale des Constructeurs d’Automobiles”..These are the most accurate stats ..


http://oica.net/category/production-statistics/

PASSENGER CARS
2011

INDIA 3,053,871
CHINA 14,485,326
USA 2,966,133

^ By Advaits argument ,does the absolute number of families in the middle class are more in number in India than US ?


Moreover lets compare the growth in automative Industry of China and India over the years. Figures from the same site..

2011*
India 10%
China 0.8%

2010
India 34.8%
China 32.8%

*The 2011 growth in India slowed down because of political factors like strike ,(the maruti strike lasted several months) , supply side bottlenecks in steel and power and reduction in demand due to high interest rate..

While in China growth nearly stopped because they were having an over capacity in any case..They have been producing more cars than US since 2004 iirc....

Let me try and explain something about the Chinese economy..

Lets take steel production for instance .

China produces 3.5 times more steel than the next three producers (Japan + US + India) combined ...Its per capita steel consumption has been several times higher than US .. The results can be seen in the empty cities ...But most Chinese are dirt poor.. Even when the per capita income Sub 1000 they produced more steel than Japan+ US + India...

http://www.worldsteel.org/statistics/st ... ction.html

How were these massive manufacturing figures achieved in spite of the relative poverty of their population ? Being the worlds factory gave them massive amounts of foreign reserve.. Being a dictatorship they were able to mobilise resources with relative ease.. That can be a problem in India (Posco for instance) ... There growth depended upon steel + car + other things production ...Since it depended upon production and they were able to sit of piles of US dollars , it did not matter what they did with their produce.

As long as they has enough exports to give them US $s to fund their production , they might as well dump their production in Gobi dessert. Something which they have quite literally done in case of their empty cities..

But this is not something which can go on forever. Eventually they ll have a negative BOP as domestic consumption rises ...They cannot indefinitely achieve production side growth rates as you have seen in the auto industry which negligibly grew last year and things don't look good this year too..

The gini index is 47+ (was 46.8 in 2004,inequality has grown PRC since then ) in comparison to Indias 36-37.. I have not yet bothered doing it myself ,but you can try plotting a graph /generating a data table of Income distribution in India/China using the GINI Index..(far-mullah can be googled , data generation can be done in Python/mathematica etc..

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_g ... gini-index

You ll find that PRC has a far greater below poverty line population... A fact that Vina al harvardi pointed out before using other data points....

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_g ... gini-index

One might argue that everything will be hunky dory if they are able to transfer the production wealth to the people . Like the empty cities being occupied etc...But the problem is that once the wealth is transferred to people , consumption would increase massively.. So massively that they ll have a negative BOP...And then things will get interesting...

Hence the talk of hard-landing..

In India , growth in various segments corresponds to population getting wealthier , the saving and the investment rates...While the Chinese model defies all established laws of economics..

From here onwards the rate limiting factor in India will be the supply side and regulatory bottlenecks that the guber-mint imposes on it ..While for PRC the challenge will be greater.. How to keep growing in spite of massive over capacity.. How to transfer wealth to people before the wealth perishes ? how to manage there dollar reserves on which there economy is dependant on when domestic consumption rises to the point that they ll have to import more than they can export ? (ergo a negative BOP)...
abhischekcc
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4277
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: If I can’t move the gods, I’ll stir up hell
Contact:

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by abhischekcc »

If China is to encourage domestic consumption without generating negative BOP, it will have to make the yuan acceptable internationally. That way it can pay for imported raw materials with domestic currency.
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by harbans »

Thanks GK' ji. I was not aware that India car production has exceeded the US. Quite a fall from the days of Detroits stardom. Was aware though that India exports more cars than China last couple of years. However as of now China still consumes much more. 2015 -2020 i think the figures may seem more comparable in this department.
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gakakkad »

abhischekcc wrote:If China is to encourage domestic consumption without generating negative BOP, it will have to make the yuan acceptable internationally. That way it can pay for imported raw materials with domestic currency.
Very difficult to achieve ... Presently even the Mexican Peso is traded more than Yuan..The foreign trade of Panda is as much as US..But still Yuan is not a highly traded currency...

Here is the explanation ..For China to import resources in Yuan from a particular country , they must export equivalent quantity of goods to the country in question...Majority of the present Chinese exports are western company products assembled in China...Not there own intellectual property ...So for Panda to get get X billion dollars worth of Oil from KSA , they must export something of equivalent value to the KSA ..At present , it is the apple I-POD / Sony PS/Samsung LCD etc...Why you Apple want to trade in Yuan to KSA ?
So at present the exports are helping them amass there massive forex reserves...But they are not making Yuan any more traded...

What would happen if China tries selling apple I-PODS to Venezuela in Yuan ? It gets too expensive for Apple to get there I-PODS assembled in China .. So they quit China..Hence unless Panda is able to sell its own stuff to other countries in sufficient quantity , it can't do business in Yuan internationally...
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by pankajs »

China buyers defer raw material cargos
Chinese consumers of thermal coal and iron ore are asking traders to defer cargos and – in some cases – defaulting on their contracts, in the clearest sign yet of the impact of the country’s economic slowdown on the global raw materials markets.

The deferrals and defaults have only emerged in the last few days, traders said, and have contributed to a drop in iron ore and coal prices.

“We have some clients in China asking us this week to defer volumes,” said a senior executive with a global commodities trading house, who warned that consumers were cautious. “China is hand to mouth at the moment.”

A senior executive at another large trading house also confirmed there had been defaults and deferrals in both thermal coal and iron ore.

China’s economy grew 8.1 per cent in the first quarter from the same period of 2011, the weakest rise in nearly three years but still pointing to a so-called soft landing.

Other key economic indicators followed by Chinese policy makers, including electricity consumption, rail cargo volumes and disbursement of bank loans, point to a sharper slowdown, suggesting the risk of a hard landing.

Soft commodities such as soyabeans and cotton have also seen Chinese customers default in the past two weeks, a trader at a third global trading house said.

Highlighting a “worrying” weakness in consumer spending inside China, Kim Youngha, the head of Samsung’s China operations, said he expected the domestic market for technology goods to grow 7 per cent this year in China, down from 10 per cent last year.

Yu Song, analyst at Goldman Sachs, told clients last week that Chinese economic activity was “exceedingly weak”. In response to recent dismal data, the Chinese central bank has cut the portion of deposits that banks must hold as reserves to encourage the flow of credit.

As the world’s main engine of commodities consumption, the Chinese business cycle is key for raw materials markets. The country is particularly important for bulk commodities such as iron ore, used in steelmaking, and thermal coal, used to fire power plants.

It is the world’s largest importer of iron ore, accounting for roughly 60 per cent of the seaborne market, while it ranks as the second top importer of coal, behind Japan and with a market share of 20 per cent of global trade.

Because of slowing economic growth and the high domestic stockpiles of many raw materials, China’s commodities imports in April, the latest month for which data are available, were unexpectedly weak, with iron ore imports hitting a six-month low and copper imports at an eight-month low.

Iron ore and thermal coal are critical to the profitability of blue-chip miners such as BHP Billiton, Vale of Brazil, Rio Tinto, Xstrata and Anglo American. The miners, under pressure from investors, have announced they will reduce investment in the next few years due to cooling commodities markets.

The price of the benchmark iron ore with 62 per cent iron content in Singapore fell on Friday to $135.25 a tonne, down nearly 9 per cent from the end April.

Colin Hamilton, commodities analysts at Macquarie, said sentiment in the iron ore market was “pretty weak”.

“People are worried about China and China is worried about Europe,” he said. “Everyone is worried about growth. You cannot decouple Europe from China.”

Thermal coal prices in the Australian port of Newcastle, the benchmark for Asia, fell on Friday to $97.5 a tonne after breaking below the $100 level earlier this month for the first time in 18 months.

The slump in thermal coal prices is also due to higher exports by US miners, which face lower domestic demand because of the lowest natural gas prices in a decade.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

Advait wrote:
Suraj wrote:Advait, please stop derailing the thread. There's no need to bring in relative moralities. Regardless of whether the PRC is ahead or behind us, this thread is about critically analyzing them.
I am writing in facts and figures while others are making snide remarks, but that is not derailment. :roll:
You said "this thread is about critically analyzing them", but seems like what you want everybody to do is just criticize them.
Ok, I get it: All countries are wrong/in deep trouble, onlee we are great. :mrgreen:
Jai Ho.
I referred to your first post, not the second one about automobile stats.

It is not upto you to provide gratuitous advice like:
I am not going trying to put our country down, put progress can happen only when we acknowledge the facts instead of making snide remarks and keep patting ourselves on the back. We, the aam-adami, have to start demanding more of our government, and mock the notion being peddled by our intellectuals (using that term very loosely here) that we can just build some IT-Vity, medical tourism, softpower economy and everything will turn out well.
Please desist. This is the PRC thread. The auto stats topic just embellishes what is otherwise a posted whinefest about Indian polity. Analyzing what enables China to produce as many automobiles as it does - as gakkakad does - is fine. Your thinly veiled diatribe about Indian political economy is not. The next attempt to troll in response to this advice will earn you a warning.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by amit »

harbans wrote:Thanks GK' ji. I was not aware that India car production has exceeded the US. Quite a fall from the days of Detroits stardom. Was aware though that India exports more cars than China last couple of years. However as of now China still consumes much more. 2015 -2020 i think the figures may seem more comparable in this department.
If I may, GK's post is informative. However, as far as the car statistics goes, there's a big caveat here IMO. The numbers point to the number of cars produced and not to the number of cars consumed domestically. For this reason you'll see, for example that the numbers in the link show that Japan and Germany have more than thrice and twice respectively the numbers for the US. Even South Korea has almost twice the number than the US.

The numbers are just a reflection of poor exports (of cars) from the US and not domestic consumption numbers. The US is just behind the Chinese in consumption numbers - despite having less than one-fourth its population. In their excitement with numbers the Chinese drones often forget that in many respects they are still decades behind the US.

The numbers posted by GK also show that the Indian auto industry is growing in a very healthy manner and India has become an export powerhouse. What many folks often miss is that after Japan and S Korea India is the third biggest automobile exporter in Asia - not China or the over-hyped Thailand.

Moreover as the other numbers also show that the Indian industry, even though from a lower base, is growing exponentially when compared to the Chinese auto industry growth. Give a few years and you'll see the difference. Remember the time when Chinese mobile phone sales were in the hundreds of millions and India's was less than 50 million? How many years did it take to catch up? In autos it will take a bit longer due to the nature of the beast but catch we will - as a bonus we'll have a vibrant export industry.

:-)

PS: One thing I notice is the quantum improvement in fit and finish of Indian made cars, that's a huge plus. Indian designed cars have almost caught up with worldclass and they have definitely caught up and in some cases surpassed the stuff that QQ and other companies with interesting names produce in Panda land. Most importantly they are not rip offs of international brands and designs. Folks here might remember that many moons ago I had posted a pictorial comparison of phamous Chinese cars and their international analogues.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by amit »

Advait wrote:
Suraj wrote:Advait, please stop derailing the thread. There's no need to bring in relative moralities. Regardless of whether the PRC is ahead or behind us, this thread is about critically analyzing them.
I am writing in facts and figures while others are making snide remarks, but that is not derailment. :roll:

You said "this thread is about critically analyzing them", but seems like what you want everybody to do is just criticize them.

Ok, I get it: All countries are wrong/in deep trouble, onlee we are great. :mrgreen:

Jai Ho.
Advait,

Suraj has already commented on your posts. However, I'd like to point out the reason why folks here are a bit put off by your (well intentioned) remarks.

But before I do that let me show that your "facts and figures" are not as factual as you think they are. Please see this chart:

Image

You'd note that the number of cars per 100 people is not as different in India and China as you think they are.
You can see from this chart from Main First Bank that China and Thai­land have rel­a­tively sim­i­lar lev­els of GDP per capita, but the rate of vehi­cle own­er­ship in China is sig­nif­i­cantly lower. If China were to catch up with the trend of other coun­tries, the ratio would roughly be 10 vehi­cles for every 100 peo­ple. The same can be said for other coun­tries where incomes are ris­ing such as Turkey and India.
From here

However the point remains that more cars (in fact more than twice) the number of cars are sold in China than in India. And this is true for just about every consumer good you can think about. In fact the more expensive the item the factors go up as much - for e.g. the Chinese buy LV bags several fold more than Indians do - the same with Gucci and expensive watches, including "authentic fakes".

Now instead of chest beating and lamenting how wretched we and our government are, please try to understand the co-relation between per capita income and consumption. If you really want to know and understand there are hazaar scholarly works on this which Uncle Gogal can point you to. I probably could have done the same (as could have many posters here), however, time is a constraint.

As a compensation let me point just to this link. It's a news article but still had some useful nuggets of information.

In particular:
"The $1,000-income is the start of the take-off of a nation," says Janmejaya Sinha, chairman, Asia Pacific, of consulting firm BCG. "It is around this number that a nation gets out of subsistence spending and moves more and more into higher quality branded product," adds Chetan Ahya, MD, Research, Morgan Stanley.

China reached this threshold in 2003, and has since unleashed a consumption boom that the world is in awe of. Today, its per capita income is at $3,400.

What's so significant about the statistics of $1,000? After all, even countries like Ghana and Afghanistan too are close to achieving this figure. The figure is significant if it is accompanied by a few other things: an economy of the size of at least $500 billion, a healthy and sustainable growth rate in GDP and a large population. India has all the three pieces of this equation, and has them in plenty.
Along with all this I would also ask you to consider two other data points. One is that China started its reforms process a full decade before us. And the second is, being a dictatorship it has been able to ram through often unpleasant changes that are required to fast track economic growth. Contrast that with our government fumbling on some thing as elementary as increasing rail passenger fares after almost a decade.

However, despite all the hurdles our per capita has crossed the magic $1000 mark and our GDP is pushing $2 trillion. Aab ayga maza. In the context of automobiles, just compare the yearly growth rates between India and China. After several years of scorching growth the Chinese demand is plateauing as it's bound to. On the other hand, the Indian growth is just gathering momentum and from a higher base than when China also experienced similar momentum (that's because we first built a thriving auto export industry before domestic consumption surged).

Bottomline, before being so pessimistic and blaming everybody for what you perceive as the dhoti clad SDRE's shortcomings, try to think it through. There's a lot that can be made better but they may not be as many as you think they are. We also get a lot of things right despite our tendency to quake in our dhotis at the drop of a hat or Han.

JMT
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gakakkad »

Nice posts Amit..
However, despite all the hurdles our per capita has crossed the magic $1000 mark and our GDP is pushing $2 trillion. Aab ayga maza. In the context of automobiles, just compare the yearly growth rates between India and China. After several years of scorching growth the Chinese demand is plateauing as it's bound to

I have tried to explain this to people often. But people fail to understand the exponential curve of compound interest...

In late 1990s when I was in high school , cell phones were a luxury item in India..20% of my classmates had parents owning cellphones . There was only one kid in my class who had his own cell phone ..His uncle is now a forbes billionaire .. the guy was a typical rich family spoilt brat type and would show off his cell phone ..I told him then , that in a decades time even a gardener would have the cell phone ...he laughed then ... i merely grinned...

I bumped into the guy in boston 2 years ago .. "Mobile revolution" had taken place in India . He remembered my statement ...He still has not figured out how it all happened...I am not sure his uncle would find the brat very useful for his company... Needless to say that the Guy was not in Boston for studying in MIT/Harvard, but for attending some party...
On the other hand, the Indian growth is just gathering momentum and from a higher base than when China also experienced similar momentum (that's because we first built a thriving auto export industry before domestic consumption surged).
true... On top of that ,we still have plenty of legislations pending to remove supply side bottlenecks ... And our growth has been in spite of the bottlenecks ..Imagine what will happen once those bottlenecks are addressed ..
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by amit »

Thanks Gakakkad. Unfortunately very few people understand the exponential curve. And far too many folks are like your spoilt rich friend - folks who think it's hip, "progressive" and fashionable to be critical of India and Indian policy without thinking things through and doing their own research. Like I've said many times, there's a lot that's bad and needs fixing but these are not nearly as much as most folks think they are.

Going back to the India-China automobile sales comparison and its correlation to per capita income, let me present another interesting statistics. But before that remember that China crossed the $1000 per capita barrier in 2003 and India did so in 2011. As the article I linked in my previous post says, $1000 is the barrier at which folks think of four wheelers instead of two wheelers. This move becomes a torrent when the per capita get to $2000 and so on.

Now look at this link.
China is the world's fastest growing auto market. According Chinese government statistics, over two million cars were sold in the country in 2003, a nearly 80 percent increase over 2002.
So in 2003 when China passed the $1k mark its car sales zoomed up 80 per cent to 2 million cars.

Now look at this WSJ article about Indian car sales in 2011:
Sales increased to 1.95 million cars in the past calendar year from 1.87 million cars, according to SIAM.
The WSJ adds that 2011 was a pretty bad year due the problems in the economy:
NEW DELHI – The Indian automobile market faced a bumpy ride in 2011 and the future looks grim as well, although there are a few signs that the fog may be clearing a little.

Sales growth in 2011 slowed to just 4.3%, compared with a stellar 31% in the previous 12 months, according to data issued Tuesday by the Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers, or SIAM.
If it wasn't for the unexpected 4.3% growth instead of the normal high double digit growth the figure would have crossed 2 million.

But even then:

The year China passed the $1k per capita mark its auto sales were 2 million.

The year India passed the $1k per capita mark its auto sales were 1.95 million.

I hope Advait reads these numbers and realises that these "fact and figures" are as relevant as the "facts and figures" he quoted. I would stick my neck out and say that these numbers are more relevant than random figures of cars per 100 taken out of context and used as a dhoti-shaking excuse.

I would also like to stick my neck out and make another prediction. Nine years have passed since 2003 and China has become the world's biggest auto market - a creditable achievement I must add and I'm happy for the Chinese. However, I would predict that by 2020 India would be the second biggest or biggest auto market and would join China right up there in the auto industry - as it will in many other fields.

It all boils down to the one decade head start China has in its liberalisation drive. And note the time lines hold despite the lack of proper governance in India.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

Excellent posts, amit and gakakkad.
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by vina »

Oh well, it looks like our "Tarrel than Mountain and Deepel than Ocean" Friend is in trouble.

Chinese Manufacturing May Shrink for 7th month in a row!

And with that predictably come the exhortations of
China will increase the intensity of policy “fine-tuning” amid rising “downside risks” facing the economy, the State Council, or Cabinet, said yesterday.


This surely has to be a joke of some sort. Quick, can someone pull out the statistics of what was China's consumption as a % of GDP in 2009 to 2012 ? I wouldn't be surprised if the share of consumption to GDP has actually decreased, when all common sense said that the stimulus should have gone towards increasing consumption and not the already high investement.

We talked about it here on how there will be waste on a massive massive scale and pointed out the high speed railways and how it was a total dud (but Chinese posters claimed the opposite and 100% occupancy and what have you and see how that has whimpered down now) and you saw monstrosities like Ordos and of course , ranks upon ranks of huge highrises , with empty apartments and malls with zero occupancy!

And here we have another round of similar spending going to happen, now with probably "affordable housing" and whatever being the target! Makes sense to mail a check to every chinese household of proportionate ratio of stimulus per head and tell them to spend as they please. That will make for far more efficient plan than a govt (mis) directed spree.

Well, all in all, the core and the tamper are getting crunched layer by layer for a future gigantic ka-boom.
wong
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 27 May 2011 19:21

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by wong »

amit wrote:What many folks often miss is that after Japan and S Korea India is the third biggest automobile exporter in Asia - not China or the over-hyped Thailand.
A little fact checking says the bold part doesn't hold water. China had $10.6 Billion in automobile exports last year vs. $6 Billion for India.

From FT:
"India currently ranks 26th among auto exporting countries, earning $5.5bn a year with less than 1 per cent of the world auto exports market."

Also, at this stage in India's auto development, there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume all the Indian Hyundais and Suzukis domestically assembled. Hyundai shouldn't be exporting its Indian cars. China's auto exports have traditionally been limited by an inability to satisfy domestic car demand. Honda tried exporting the Accord from China, but they found out they could make much more money just selling it locally. What's this about a lack of Chinese consumption??
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by vina »

Ouch.. very very ouch! China is a black box of misinformation
China Is a Black Box of Misinformation
By Junheng Li - May 23, 2012

To this day, many Chinese people believe that Mao Zedong didn’t know millions of people were starving in the Great Leap Forward. :eek: :eek: (the sheer power of the drone Panda propaganda)

The agricultural production statistics were all rosy, a testament to the success of his new economic policy, while hordes of hungry masses migrated from province to province, chasing false reports of bumper crops. Thirty million or so people starved, in no small part because of the manipulation of economic data.

Half a century later, China has the second-largest economy in the world, and the country has lifted about 400 million people out of poverty. The magnitude and speed of urbanization are unprecedented in the history of human civilization.

I am proud of what China has done for its people since the introduction of state capitalism in the 1980s. Gross domestic product has quadrupled in the past decade, from $1.2 trillion in 2000 to almost $6 trillion in 2011. But as a China native and a U.S.-trained investor, I struggle with the country’s governance, openness and, therefore, the reliability of its data. Behind the scenes of an economic miracle, China has remained a gigantic black box to insiders and outsiders.
Cooking the Books

In the 1980s and 1990s, during China’s opening-up stage, both my parents left employment in the state-owned sector to jump into the newly opened private sector. As they toiled through the “wild west,” I learned the most important lesson about doing business in China: Numbers don’t mean much. Most companies have three books: a real one for internal use, one for the tax bureau and one for the CEO’s wife (and, in some cases, a fourth for his mistress) :lol: :lol: .

More than a decade later the practice hasn’t changed much, as has been highlighted by the recent allegations of fraudulent accounting associated with a slew of China-based U.S.-listed companies. China as a whole is a giant black box -- no one really knows what is in it. Chinese bureaucrats don’t have any interest in reporting anything that doesn’t paint a good picture, and, even if they did, the statistics bureau remains woefully inadequate.

At the same time, gross domestic product forecasts issued by major investment banks are equally unreliable. Just as with equity research analysts and stockbrokers who package IPOs and sell them to investors, major banks’ economists try to curry favor with Chinese bureaucrats. As such their forecasts are essentially a point-for-point rehash of what fiscal and monetary policies the bureaucrats say are coming down the pipe. The information is repackaged and sold as euphoria to support banks’ profit-generating activities, such as IPOs and securities trading.

So far, these forecasts have worked relatively well, as one would imagine. China’s hybrid economy depends more heavily on government policy than most, and can count on the cushion of intervention from on high.

Once a growth target is set by the top, the central government then allocates GDP growth from the top down. The state gives provinces a target, each province mandates to the regions, regions to departments, and departments to corporations, including state-owned enterprises and private companies. Despite the admirable economic growth that China has delivered, at its core the reward and punishment system hasn’t changed in stride. Those who comply are rewarded and those who raise uncomfortable subjects are punished; a cut in pay or acork in one’s career advancement are to be expected if one can’t provide the euphoria package.
Everybody’s Happy

There is a Chinese saying usually applied to the legal system: While the top has its policies, the bottom has its counterpolicies. In economics, if the bottom can’t meet the mandate, they cook the books and send the data back up the ranks. Everyone’s happy -- for a while.

It’s as if Mao’s proposed farming methods could actually produce the amount of crops that were being reported -- if the powers that be must be pleased, so be it. As long as the upper levels of governance maintain their authority and lower levels of governance don’t take any heat for a missed target, then everyone can be happy.

Many unbiased economists would argue that it is statistically improbable for any economy to have produced a real GDP data stream as smooth as China’s since 1980. During its early years of modern growth, China was still overwhelmingly agricultural, so it should have been subjected to Mother Nature’s unpredictability in the form of bad harvests or bumper crops. As manufacturing and industrial productions have grown as a percentage of GDP, business cycles driven by demand and productivity fluctuations should have generated far more significant swings in the economy than what the reported data have indicated.

Moreover, in the span of the past 32 years, the structures of the Chinese and world economies have changed rapidly and unpredictably. China opened up to international trade and foreign direct investment, and therefore subjected itself to more external economic shocks. Yet in this same period Chinese official statistics show aggregate GDP advancing like an Audi at a high but steady speed on an empty highway. :rotfl: :rotfl:

GDP-ism has become the Chinese government’s strongest ideology, and as such might not be an accurate indicator of reality. In the political and economic matrix of China, rosy statistics are the strongest self-justification mechanism for authority.

But, as history has shown, statistics and ideology don’t always work in a harmonious relationship; one has a habit of eclipsing the other until the lie that has been said a thousand times becomes the truth. Data manipulation, however, is a nontruth that can only fool for so long. Let us hope that when it is exposed, it won’t result in China’s next Great Leap Backward. :roll: :roll:

(Junheng Li is the founder and senior equity analyst of JL Warren Capital LLC, an independent equity research firm in New York. The opinions expressed are her own. Hannah Lincoln, a master’s candidate at Johns Hopkins University-Nanjing University Center for Chinese and American Studies, contributed research to this article.)

Read more opinion online from Bloomberg View. Subscribe to receive a daily e-mail highlighting new View columns, editorials and op-ed articles.

Today’s highlights: the View editors on how Germany gained from the euro and the problems with the Facebook IPO; Clive Crook on Europe at the brink; Jonathan Alter on political substance and slander; Ezra Klein on the fight over Bain; Caroline Baum on overregulating banks; Tobias Moskowitz on data-driven policy; Panagis Vourloumis on Greek shock therapy.

To contact the writer of this article: Junheng Li at junh@jlwarrencapital.com.

To contact the editor responsible for this article: Katy Roberts at kroberts29@bloomberg.net.
member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by member_20317 »

amit wrote:It all boils down to the one decade head start China has in its liberalisation drive. And note the time lines hold despite the lack of proper governance in India.

This is actually why I sometimes am afraid that we may be just too much like the people we claim we dont like. We could be loosing our inner Baniya.

Fortunately we have a democracy and we get an opportunity to throw away the junk in any given block of 5 years. Lets hope we can excercise this right responsibly.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by amit »

wong wrote:A little fact checking says the bold part doesn't hold water. China had $10.6 Billion in automobile exports last year vs. $6 Billion for India.
Aha Wong ji, fact checking indeed. I hope the facts are not from the bureau that produces the impeccable Shanghai statistics. :-).

Well here's an "less reliable" - that is less reliable than Shanghai statistics - source, have a look at it.

Nation Master. Fortunately the website resides outside the Great Firewall of China.
From FT:
"India currently ranks 26th among auto exporting countries, earning $5.5bn a year with less than 1 per cent of the world auto exports market."
Credible posters give a link to any quote they put up but then credible posters do a lot of things... If you see the Nation Master chart, FT is right in pointing out that India is No26 among auto exporting countries. But the devil is in the details, as I always say. China is (drum rolls please...) No37 on the list!
Also, at this stage in India's auto development, there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume all the Indian Hyundais and Suzukis domestically assembled. Hyundai shouldn't be exporting its Indian cars. China's auto exports have traditionally been limited by an inability to satisfy domestic car demand.
I do believe that you don't realise how lame duck the above "anal-ysis" sounds. By that logic, for example, all the iPhone and iPad sold in the world are produced in China.

"At this stage of China's economic development (second biggest economy and all that jazz) there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume "almost" all of Foxconns domestically assembled iPhone and iPads. Apple via Foxconn shouldn't be exporting China made iPhones and iPads. The fact that Apple via Foxconn has not been limited by insatiable domestic demand for iPhones and iPads implies that most Chinese are not rich enough to buy iPhones and iPads. The party should move to give a boost to each Chinese so that they can buy iPhones and iPads."

Honda tried exporting the Accord from China, but they found out they could make much more money just selling it locally. What's this about a lack of Chinese consumption??
I'm sorry to say but that sound like bullsh!t. None of the foreign companies have set up car manufacturing bases in China to export, unlike in India which has been identified as a global small car production hub. You see companies like Huyndai, Ford, Suzuki etc can set up 100 per cent owned factories in India and export their production. They also have no fear of IP being stolen. To boot there is a thriving world class auto component hubs in India and the required skilled workforce.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by amit »

Suraj wrote:Excellent posts, amit and gakakkad.
Thanks Suraj. Coming from you it means a lot. :)
wong
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 27 May 2011 19:21

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by wong »

amit wrote: Credible posters give a link to any quote they put up but then credible posters do a lot of things... If you see the Nation Master chart, FT is right in pointing out that India is No26 among auto exporting countries. But the devil is in the details, as I always say. China is (drum rolls please...) No37 on the list!
Also, at this stage in India's auto development, there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume all the Indian Hyundais and Suzukis domestically assembled. Hyundai shouldn't be exporting its Indian cars. China's auto exports have traditionally been limited by an inability to satisfy domestic car demand.
I do believe that you don't realise how lame duck the above "anal-ysis" sounds. By that logic, for example, all the iPhone and iPad sold in the world are produced in China.

"At this stage of China's economic development (second biggest economy and all that jazz) there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume "almost" all of Foxconns domestically assembled iPhone and iPads. Apple via Foxconn shouldn't be exporting China made iPhones and iPads. The fact that Apple via Foxconn has not been limited by insatiable domestic demand for iPhones and iPads implies that most Chinese are not rich enough to buy iPhones and iPads. The party should move to give a boost to each Chinese so that they can buy iPhones and iPads."

Honda tried exporting the Accord from China, but they found out they could make much more money just selling it locally. What's this about a lack of Chinese consumption??
I'm sorry to say but that sound like bullsh!t. None of the foreign companies have set up car manufacturing bases in China to export, unlike in India which has been identified as a global small car production hub. You see companies like Huyndai, Ford, Suzuki etc can set up 100 per cent owned factories in India and export their production. They also have no fear of IP being stolen. To boot there is a thriving world class auto component hubs in India and the required skilled workforce.

Here is the FT link that quoted $5.5 billion in Indian auto exports:
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2010/0 ... xport-hub/

Now, here's a few to support my $10.6+ billion in china auto exports on 844,000 to 1 million vehicles.
http://www.china.org.cn/business/2012-0 ... 587619.htm
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/01 ... 1-million/
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china ... 568274.htm

Never heard of Nation Master, but its numbers are way off for India and China.

Funny, your iPhone and iPad argument actually supports my case. Apple prioritizes US sales over Chinese sales of their products. Apple products sell for more in China than in the US, but Apple wants to satisfy demand in its home market first. This is either their corporate strategy or they never anticipated Chinese demand for Apple products would be so insatiably high. There is a thriving gray market for re-import of Apple products back to China. There are actually riots in China because their aren't enough iPads. Are there riots in India because there aren't enough Indian made Hyundais and Suzukis??? Didn't think so.
amit wrote:I'm sorry to say but that sound like bullsh!t. None of the foreign companies have set up car manufacturing bases in China to export, unlike in India which has been identified as a global small car production hub. You see companies like Huyndai, Ford, Suzuki etc can set up 100 per cent owned factories in India and export their production. They also have no fear of IP being stolen. To boot there is a thriving world class auto component hubs in India and the required skilled workforce.
That certainly is your spin, but the reality is it takes several year to setup a foreign automobile assembly plant. The overly optimistic, projected local demand in India didn't materialize, so it's export time. If your theory was remotely true, the automobiles being exported would be much higher quality than the lower end, made for India cars. After all why export Nissan's cheapest/lowest car from India, when it's way more profitable to export Nissan Maximas or Infinitis (if exports really were the original intention).

Chinese automobile exports have always been constrained by domestic demand consuming all the domestic production. This is a well known fact both inside and outside China, but it couldn't get through the Indian mental firewall. This export constraint is about to change and you can see that in the 50%+ yoy export growth numbers.
wong
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 27 May 2011 19:21

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by wong »

amit wrote:It all boils down to the one decade head start China has in its liberalisation drive. And note the time lines hold despite the lack of proper governance in India.
Actually, this statement isn't true either. For China, 1978 to 1990 was just undoing communism. Even the CIA's own economic analysis backs this up. Was India communist between 1978 to 1990, if not then China didn't have a decade head start over India. Real economic reform in China only started in 1992 (and only in the coastal areas), around the same time as India. The "iron rice bowl" and other remnants of communism lasted at least until 1998 with the beginning of massive state-owned company layoffs.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by amit »

wong wrote:Now, here's a few to support my $10.6+ billion in china auto exports on 844,000 to 1 million vehicles.
http://www.china.org.cn/business/2012-0 ... 587619.htm
Wong ji,

How ingenious you are!

Let's just take the link you provided above and have a look at it. It says:
China's auto exports hit 849,000 units last year, the highest level seen since the onset of the global financial crisis, the automobile branch of the China Chamber of Commerce for the Import & Export of Machinery & Electronic Products (CCCME AUTO) said on Wednesday.
The report is dated February 2012.

Now the SIAM, that is Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers, the industry body has this on its website:
During April-March 2012, the industry exported 2,910,055 automobiles registering a growth of 25.44 percent. Passenger Vehicles registered growth at 14.18 percent in this period.
Now I'm waiting to see what fresh spin you impart. And the fact you haven't heard of Nation Master gives interesting clues on where you actually reside in, methinks!
That certainly is your spin, but the reality is it takes several year to setup a foreign automobile assembly plant. The overly optimistic, projected local demand in India didn't materialize, so it's export time. If your theory was remotely true, the automobiles being exported would be much higher quality than the lower end, made for India cars. After all why export Nissan's cheapest/lowest car from India, when it's way more profitable to export Nissan Maximas or Infinitis (if exports really were the original intention).
Another piece of bullsh!t. India has been chosen as a global hub for small cars, which why much of the export goes to Europe. I'm not going to spend time educating you on this aspect of Indian auto industry, just go and google. And what makes you think that cars that are sold in India are less than worldclass? Just because Indian prefer compact cars, that makes these cars comparable to the quality that Geely and others churn out for the Chinese market?

Do you know that Suzuki's design centre in India designs cutting edge cars which the Japanese company then manufactures for the global markets?
This export constraint is about to change and you can see that in the 50%+ yoy export growth numbers.
Living in la la land are you? Even your links don's support this particular piece of propaganda.

I get it now. With HSR becoming an embarrassment for even the most die hard drones, now its the great leap forward by the likes of Geely, Chery and others that will be new topic to crow about! :lol:
Last edited by amit on 25 May 2012 14:08, edited 1 time in total.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by amit »

wong wrote:Actually, this statement isn't true either. For China, 1978 to 1990 was just undoing communism. Even the CIA's own economic analysis backs this up. Was India communist between 1978 to 1990, if not then China didn't have a decade head start over India. Real economic reform in China only started in 1992 (and only in the coastal areas), around the same time as India. The "iron rice bowl" and other remnants of communism lasted at least until 1998 with the beginning of massive state-owned company layoffs.
Wow, wow!

So since 1992 the Peoples Republic of China has been a thriving democracy I see? I wonder why Tienanmen happened in that case? Please Wong cut this crap, the folks here are not going to swayed by this kindergarten stuff. There's a lot about China which you can write about which can lead to a serious discussion, don't stretch your already over extended credibility by sprouting such nonsense.
wong
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 27 May 2011 19:21

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by wong »

Amit, this is your link...

"The cumulative production data for April-March 2012 shows production growth of 13.83 percent over same period last year. In March 2012 as compared to March 2011, production grew at a single digit rate of 6.83 percent. In 2011-12, the industry produced 20,366,432 vehicles of which share of two wheelers, passenger vehicles, three wheelers and commercial vehicles were 76 percent, 15 percent, 4 percent and 4 percent respectively.
 
Domestic Sales
The growth rate for overall domestic sales for 2011-12 was 12.24 percent amounting to 17,376,624 vehicles. In the month of only March 2012, domestic sales grew at a rate of 10.11 percent as compared to March 2011."

That's where your 3 million number came from: motorcycles, tricycles, auto rickshaws, etc...

I thought we were talking about cars ????????

All my statements stand. India did not export 3 million cars nor did India consume 17.3 million cars domestically in 2012.
wong
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 27 May 2011 19:21

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by wong »

amit wrote:
wong wrote:Actually, this statement isn't true either. For China, 1978 to 1990 was just undoing communism. Even the CIA's own economic analysis backs this up. Was India communist between 1978 to 1990, if not then China didn't have a decade head start over India. Real economic reform in China only started in 1992 (and only in the coastal areas), around the same time as India. The "iron rice bowl" and other remnants of communism lasted at least until 1998 with the beginning of massive state-owned company layoffs.
Wow, wow!

So since 1992 the Peoples Republic of China has been a thriving democracy I see? I wonder why Tienanmen happened in that case? Please Wong cut this crap, the folks here are not going to swayed by this kindergarten stuff. There's a lot about China which you can write about which can lead to a serious discussion, don't stretch your already over extended credibility by sprouting such nonsense.
Capitalism is economics, not politics. Democracy vs. authoritarianism has nothing to do with capitalism vs. socialism vs. communism. Capitalism and a 1 party state are not mutually exclusive. I was merely correcting your decade behind in reform excuse, which is simply not true. China and India both started economic reform around the same time in the early 1990s.
DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 1048
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by DavidD »

amit wrote:
wong wrote:Actually, this statement isn't true either. For China, 1978 to 1990 was just undoing communism. Even the CIA's own economic analysis backs this up. Was India communist between 1978 to 1990, if not then China didn't have a decade head start over India. Real economic reform in China only started in 1992 (and only in the coastal areas), around the same time as India. The "iron rice bowl" and other remnants of communism lasted at least until 1998 with the beginning of massive state-owned company layoffs.
Wow, wow!

So since 1992 the Peoples Republic of China has been a thriving democracy I see? I wonder why Tienanmen happened in that case? Please Wong cut this crap, the folks here are not going to swayed by this kindergarten stuff. There's a lot about China which you can write about which can lead to a serious discussion, don't stretch your already over extended credibility by sprouting such nonsense.
Not that I'm agreeing with his assertions, but the Tiananmen square incident happened in 1989! Plus, communism is actually more of an economic philosophy, in contrast to capitalism, though that point is debatable as real-life applications of communism have really blurred the lines between economics and politics.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by amit »

Wong,

I see that you have major comprehension problems. Let me make it easy for you. The first para of the link I provided says this:
In 2011-12, the industry produced 20,366,432 vehicles of which share of two wheelers, passenger vehicles, three wheelers and commercial vehicles were 76 percent, 15 percent, 4 percent and 4 percent respectively.
I assume, being Chinese, you should be reasonably proficient in maths. Let me explain what the sentence above means. It says of the total vehicle production of 20,366,332, 15 per cent was passenger cars. Now do the math to find out how many passenger cars that means.

Now the para I quoted in my previous post was:
During April-March 2012, the industry exported 2,910,055 automobiles registering a growth of 25.44 percent.
In case you have difficulties in understanding, to most Indians (and to most English speaking people around the world) automobiles=passenger cars.

Now do you understand that motorocycles, auto rickshaws etc are not in the picture.

Geez Wong, I have to say this. I used to think you're a smart and savvy poster. I see I was totally off the mark.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by amit »

David,

Your right about the timeline, my bad. However, just a note to everyone, I'm not going to waste my time to discuss this stupid assertion that somehow China became a capitalist society after 1992. China was, is and will be for some time to come a dictatorship run by a single party which represents a small clique of people with political and economic power.

That's the way it is. Live with it.
wong
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 27 May 2011 19:21

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by wong »

Sure amit, I'll do the math.

Back of the envelope:

15% of a total production of 20 million vehicles is 3 million cars. That's total production, both domestic and exports. Now, unless Indians consumed zero cars domestically, your 3 million car exports are impossible. Something doesn't add up in your math.

Seriously, 2.9 million cars exported to be exact. So India only consumed ~100,000 cars domestically last year???
Locked