PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

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Liu
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

gashish wrote:I dont care as a customer. Average chinese customer chooses any american/european brand over Chinese brand...hence the killing made by american/european companies in last decade. Thats the original point raised by chola.

you can assume chinese d$*k is bigger than every other d$*k, if it satisfies you, but sorry there are no takers for chinese d$*k. thats the point.
1.hehe, aveage Chinese customers is not always choose any american/european brand over CHinese brand....

for example
most household durables(TV sets,AC,washing machine,refrigerators,PC) are dominated by CHinese local brand such as Haier,Gree,Leveno..etc ,where Japanese/S.Korea brands are being asskicked and America/European brand has disppeared.

as some more areas such as smart cellphones, Xiaomi,Huawei and so on are challenging Samgsung and Apple.


3.American/european/Japanese/S.korea brands are successful in just limited areas such as autos,planes.however, even in those traditional nono-Chinese sphere,with CHinese industry climbing up along value-chain,foriegn brand superiority will not last too long ..

For example, only 4-5 years ago, high-speed railway/trains were still dominated by Japan/German/France.
However, now China is the dominator of the high-speed trains,asskicking Japan/German/France.

China is now investing heavily on its own airjet industry. I am sure that Chinese own airjet will challenge Boeing and Airbus soon,just like CHinese highspeed train did.
Liu
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

besides,
you guys seem not to realize that any successful brand is based on consolidated supply-chains.
so, indian guys here always put too much focus on brand,but ignore the upgrade of supply-chains ,behind brands.

for example.

you guys always mocks how foreign brand autos is asskciking Chinese local brands.
but you guys never study how Chinese local brand autos have beeing upgrading their supply-chains,from transmissions to engines,from robots to steel.


I do not mean that Chinese auto industry will surely succeed as Chinese high-speed train industry.
but I do think that indian people here shoud widen your sight,when you study one industry sector.
Last edited by Liu on 25 Jun 2014 19:24, edited 1 time in total.
gashish
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gashish »

Liu wrote: 1.hehe, aveage Chinese customers is not always choose any american/european brand over CHinese brand....

for example
most household durables(TV sets,AC,washing machine,refrigerators,PC) are dominated by CHinese local brand such as Haier,Gree,Leveno..etc ,where Japanese/S.Korea brands are being asskicked and America/European brand has disppeared.
Not true.Even here Philips, Bosch-Siemens, Whirlpool, Sharp, Panasonic are making a killing. Haier/Gree/midea are 2nd tier brands dominant in low margin segments. low margin are the operative words- the segments where foreign brands dont even play.
as some more areas such as smart cellphones, Xiaomi,Huawei and so on are challenging Samgsung and Apple.
challenging is a big word. they exist, Samsung/Apple are still big dogs.
3.American/european/Japanese/S.korea brands are successful in just limited areas such as autos,planes.however, even in those traditional nono-Chinese sphere,with CHinese industry climbing up along value-chain,foriegn brand superiority will not last too long ..
may be...but they are still not there. The have to first win their own domestic market, before the venture out overseas.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

gashish wrote:
Liu wrote: 1.hehe, aveage Chinese customers is not always choose any american/european brand over CHinese brand....

for example
most household durables(TV sets,AC,washing machine,refrigerators,PC) are dominated by CHinese local brand such as Haier,Gree,Leveno..etc ,where Japanese/S.Korea brands are being asskicked and America/European brand has disppeared.
Not true.Even here Philips, Bosch-Siemens, Whirlpool, Sharp, Panasonic are making a killing. Haier/Gree/midea are 2nd tier brands dominant in low margin segments. low margin are the operative words- the segments where foreign brands dont even play.
hehe, I really don't know how you difinit "dominate" and "making a killing".
At least, most people around me tend to buy local brand household duarbles,due to better costperformance.

Philips, Bosch-Siemens, Whirlpool, Sharp, Panasonic are not mainstream according to my personal experience. only those guys who do not care cost-performance will be interested in them.
your idea is really not consistent with my personal experience.
For example,
In my house, TV set is Konka 44inch LCD, referigator is Xinfei, 3 AC are all Gree,Washing Maching is Haier, desk PC is Levono..all they are local brands.
the TV set in my mother-in-law's house is one hisense 44 inch LCD ,which is also a local brand.
the TV set in my parent house is a TCL 42 inch LCD , AC is Gree ,referigerator is Rongsong,which are all local brands..
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Rishirishi »

My impression is that the rich and well to do avoid Chinese brands altogether. It is a symbol of low quality, and lower middle class. They will typically purchase WV, Seiko, Panasonic, Apple, etc. But all aspire to own BMW, RR, Porche, LV, Rolex etc.
No middle class frined of mine would want to be caught dead with a Chinese smartphone.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Rishirishi wrote:My impression is that the rich and well to do avoid Chinese brands altogether. It is a symbol of low quality, and lower middle class. They will typically purchase WV, Seiko, Panasonic, Apple, etc. But all aspire to own BMW, RR, Porche, LV, Rolex etc.
No middle class frined of mine would want to be caught dead with a Chinese smartphone.
case is more complex than you think

for example:

in CHina, Apples IPhone5 are most popular among two completely different classes in CHina: high-income class and low-income young guys.
Chinese high-income class think the price of iphone is just peanut and needn't care costperformance at all .so Chinese high-income class tend to buy iphone5.

Low-income young guys think Iphone5 is fashion and cool ,thus they even would rather spend 2 or 3 month salaries on one Iphones5.

however, mid-class like me,always think it is stupid to even spend half an month salary on one smartphone. So, we usually care more about costperformance and tend to buy samsumg or local brand like Xiaomi or Huawei.
In fact, since I was 28 years old,I have never spend more than 1/4 of my one month salary on any cellphone.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Rishirishi »

Liu wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:My impression is that the rich and well to do avoid Chinese brands altogether. It is a symbol of low quality, and lower middle class. They will typically purchase WV, Seiko, Panasonic, Apple, etc. But all aspire to own BMW, RR, Porche, LV, Rolex etc.
No middle class frined of mine would want to be caught dead with a Chinese smartphone.
case is more complex than you think

for example:

in CHina, Apples IPhone5 are most popular among two completely different classes in CHina: high-income class and low-income young guys.
Chinese high-income class think the price of iphone is just peanut and needn't care costperformance at all .so Chinese high-income class tend to buy iphone5.

Low-income young guys think Iphone5 is fashion and cool ,thus they even would rather spend 2 or 3 month salaries on one Iphones5.

however, mid-class like me,always think it is stupid to even spend half an month salary on one smartphone. So, we usually care more about costperformance and tend to buy samsumg or local brand like Xiaomi or Huawei.
In fact, since I was 28 years old,I have never spend more than 1/4 of my one month salary on any cellphone.
Well, once you have a family, the priorities change. As you point out Chinease company probably offer good value for money. But there is no doubt, Haier, GREE, TCL etc are generally of lower quality. Haier, TCL and other Chinease companies could probably have manufactured products of higher quality, but at the similar price as the other international brands.
Liu
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Rishirishi wrote:
Liu wrote:
case is more complex than you think

for example:

in CHina, Apples IPhone5 are most popular among two completely different classes in CHina: high-income class and low-income young guys.
Chinese high-income class think the price of iphone is just peanut and needn't care costperformance at all .so Chinese high-income class tend to buy iphone5.

Low-income young guys think Iphone5 is fashion and cool ,thus they even would rather spend 2 or 3 month salaries on one Iphones5.

however, mid-class like me,always think it is stupid to even spend half an month salary on one smartphone. So, we usually care more about costperformance and tend to buy samsumg or local brand like Xiaomi or Huawei.
In fact, since I was 28 years old,I have never spend more than 1/4 of my one month salary on any cellphone.
Well, once you have a family, the priorities change. As you point out Chinease company probably offer good value for money. But there is no doubt, Haier, GREE, TCL etc are generally of lower quality. Haier, TCL and other Chinease companies could probably have manufactured products of higher quality, but at the similar price as the other international brands.
you are wrong.

1.What "made-in-China" is lack of is not "quality",but "reputation".

reputation is based on the glory history quitely. it just prove that reputated "brand" products,like Apple or Erisson were better
so many people take it granted think they now are better and even will be better.

However, most of "made in China" are newbie and latecomers. they have no repulation like Apple or Errison,so they have sell their product a lower price ,even when their quality can match apple or Erisson, such as Huawei and Xiaomi.

however, when people accept that the quality of mad in China can match west rival, then the west rivals always will be asskicked.

that is why Huawei,levono have risen and Nortel banrupted

that will also be the way how Xiaomi will do with Apple and Sangsumg.



2..
frankly speaking, my one-month salary is enough to buy 4 ipone5 or 10 Xiaomi2 cellphone,but I still chose Xiaomi3 cellphone
it is not because I could not afford apple cellphone, Panasonic Tv, Simens refrigerator and dell PC that I bought Xiaomi cellphone, Gree AC ,Konka TV and Xinfei refrigerator
it is because I would not pay thousands of dollars more ,just for the hollow "repuation" of apple cellphone, Panasonic Tv, Simens refrigerator and dell PC while their quality is not obvious edge on Chinese local brands.

In my eyes, "reputation" of west brand prove west brand once were better ,it can not assure that they are now better and will be better.

when xiaomi has almost all features of sansumg,it is stupid to spend 2 times more money buying one sansumg cellphone,in my eyes.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gashish »

that is why Huawei,levono have risen and Nortel banrupted
How is so-called "rise" of Huawei or lenovo linked to bankruptcy of Nortel? Please enlighten.
frankly speaking, my one-month salary is enough to buy 4 ipone5 or 10 Xiaomi2 cellphone,but I still chose Xiaomi3 cellphone
it is not because I could not afford apple cellphone, Panasonic Tv, Simens refrigerator and dell PC that I bought Xiaomi cellphone, Gree AC ,Konka TV and Xinfei refrigerator
it is because I would not pay thousands of dollars more ,just for the hollow "repuation" of apple cellphone, Panasonic Tv, Simens refrigerator and dell PC while their quality is not obvious edge on Chinese local brands.
It is not about you and choices you make. It is about overall market preferences.
Foreign brands dominate (market leadership, profitability) Chinese brands in most segments (if not all) they play in. This is the simple point. There is no need to bring all kinds of strawmen (huawei vs nortel, xiaomi2 etc) to muddy the discussion.

However above is not true in Indian market. Some Indian brands (in auto as well as white goods sector) command same brand premium as foreign brands do.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Rishirishi »

What "made-in-China" is lack of is not "quality",but "reputation".

reputation is based on the glory history quitely. it just prove that reputated "brand" products,like Apple or Erisson were better
so many people take it granted think they now are better and even will be better.

However, most of "made in China" are newbie and latecomers. they have no repulation like Apple or Errison,so they have sell their product a lower price ,even when their quality can match apple or Erisson, such as Huawei and Xiaomi.

however, when people accept that the quality of mad in China can match west rival, then the west rivals always will be asskicked.

that is why Huawei,levono have risen and Nortel banrupted

that will also be the way how Xiaomi will do with Apple and Sangsumg.



2..
frankly speaking, my one-month salary is enough to buy 4 ipone5 or 10 Xiaomi2 cellphone,but I still chose Xiaomi3 cellphone
it is not because I could not afford apple cellphone, Panasonic Tv, Simens refrigerator and dell PC that I bought Xiaomi cellphone, Gree AC ,Konka TV and Xinfei refrigerator
it is because I would not pay thousands of dollars more ,just for the hollow "repuation" of apple cellphone, Panasonic Tv, Simens refrigerator and dell PC while their quality is not obvious edge on Chinese local brands.

In my eyes, "reputation" of west brand prove west brand once were better ,it can not assure that they are now better and will be better.

when xiaomi has almost all features of sansumg,it is stupid to spend 2 times more money buying one sansumg cellphone,in my eyes.

I have been involved with imports and and confirm that most Chinese brands deliberately aim for the lower end of the market and produce cheaper products by using lower cost components. In the long run, I am sure some of these brands will be able to get a better reputation and command a better price. But for now it is not like that.

China is no longer a cheap country any more. One requires at least RMb 20K per month to lead a decent middle class life. Very different from arround year 2000, when 3-5K RMb would be sufficient. Hence Chinese companies have to move up the value chain. They can,t rely on the "simmilar quality, lower price" concept. Hence companies in China will be forced to innovate and create products that command better prices. I think the private sector will manage this fine, but public sector industry will definately have a hard time.
Last edited by Rishirishi on 27 Jun 2014 17:39, edited 1 time in total.
Liu
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

gashish wrote:
that is why Huawei,levono have risen and Nortel banrupted
How is so-called "rise" of Huawei or lenovo linked to bankruptcy of Nortel? Please enlighten.
frankly speaking, my one-month salary is enough to buy 4 ipone5 or 10 Xiaomi2 cellphone,but I still chose Xiaomi3 cellphone
it is not because I could not afford apple cellphone, Panasonic Tv, Simens refrigerator and dell PC that I bought Xiaomi cellphone, Gree AC ,Konka TV and Xinfei refrigerator
it is because I would not pay thousands of dollars more ,just for the hollow "repuation" of apple cellphone, Panasonic Tv, Simens refrigerator and dell PC while their quality is not obvious edge on Chinese local brands.
It is not about you and choices you make. It is about overall market preferences.
Foreign brands dominate (market leadership, profitability) Chinese brands in most segments (if not all) they play in. This is the simple point. There is no need to bring all kinds of strawmen (huawei vs nortel, xiaomi2 etc) to muddy the discussion.

However above is not true in Indian market. Some Indian brands (in auto as well as white goods sector) command same brand premium as foreign brands do.
well, here is a recently released monthly sale rank of CHina mobile,Chinese largest telecom operator.
1.Xiaomi 1.754M;2.Coopad,1.443M;3.Vivo 1.373M
4.Lenovo,1.364M;5.Sansumg,1.269M;6.Huawei,1.182M;
....11.Apple,0.297M;..




http://bbs.tianya.cn/post-333-500310-1.shtml
1.小米175.4万部;
  2.酷派144.3万部;
  3.VIVO 137.3万部;
  4.联想136.4万部;
  5.三星126.9万部;
  6.华为118.2万部;
  7.OPPO 117.2万部;
 8.金立45.2万部;
  9.天语42.4万部;
  10.中兴31.4万部;
  11.苹果29.7万部;
  12.HTC 5.9万部。
, of the top 10 brand ranked by sale, only Sansumg is foreign brand and Apple is not even among top 10.

BTW,in fact ,so is most of household durable....
from AC, TV to washing machine refrigeraor, CHinese local brands are dominator in CHinese domestic market....foregn brands are just still just popular among some freak newrich guys who don't care costperformance at all and have splurging and wasting money as hoppy. they are ready to pay more for "repulation" and face.

We usually call those freak new-rich "Tuhao"(土豪).
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Rishirishi wrote:
I have been involved with imports and and confirm that most Chinese brands deliberately aim for the lower end of the market and produce cheaper products by using lower cost components. In the long run, I am sure some of these brands will be able to get a better reputation and command a better price. But for now it is not like that.
the reason why made in CHina is cheaper is quite complicated.
it is wrong of you to simplify it with "using lower cost components".
In fact, the performance of Xiaomi or Huawei cellphone is even better than Sansumg,but their price is only 1/2 of 2/3 of Sansumg.
Huawei's telecom facility is also as good as Errison,but it price is also much lower than Eerrison.
China's highspeed trains is as good as Japan/france/German,if not better,but it is still cheaper than Japan/France/German highspeed trains.

many factors are combined and eventually make CHina product-cost much lower than developed countries and other developing countries,such as competely industry chains( it means low stock cost and low import cost), world-class infrastructures(it means low freight cost),pro- business administration( less business cost), disiplined and literaed workers( good productivity).

For example:

when Foxcon decided to relocate its million-jobs industry zone to ZHengzhou, a inland CHina city, the local pro-business government made land and all procedures ready in one months, and the huge new industry zone was finished from scrach in only 6 months which decreased the business cost;

years before it, thousands of expressways had been built in the province ,it made the city had world-class infrastructure,it decreased the feight cost;

after the industry zone was finished, thousands of components supplier also moved into the city with Foxcon, it decreased the stock cost;

the labour cost in the city is till lower than moderate developed economies like Taiwan,and worker here are more literated, disciplined and productitive than that in other developing countries, it decreased productive cost;





China is no longer a cheap country any more. One requires at least RMb 20K per month to lead a decent middle class life. Very different from arround year 2000, when 3-5K RMb would be sufficient. Hence Chinese companies have to move up the value chain. They can,t rely on the "simmilar quality, lower price" concept. Hence companies in China will be forced to innovate and create products that command better prices. I think the private sector will manage this fine, but public sector industry will definately have a hard time.
1. the difference between CHina in 2000 and China in 2014 is quite huge. it is even more huge than that between USA in 2014 and USA in 1934, I think.
in 2000, the house price of Beijing was just 2000-4000 RMB/per square meter
now, it is 40000RMB/square meter now ;
in 2000, the house price of countytowns here was 500-800RMB/per square meter,
now, it is 4000-6000RMB/square meter;
in 2000, the monthly salary of most CHinese was 500-1000 RMB;
now, it is 2000-5000RMB

2. in fact ,in 2000,3-5K RMB/month was enough to make one guy live a luxery life ,with dedicated nurse and housekeeper.

after all , the average month wage of CHinese was only 600RMB or so,maybe.


3. 10 years ago, many Taiwanese veterans had mainland CHina as retirement paradise , because their monthly penson was 30-70K RMB(400-800USD) and was enough to make they live a luxery retired life they could not imagined in Taiwan.

But now, even Chinese peasant workers can earn more than those Taiwanese veterans, so those Taiwanese verterans' real life quality made a dive down. many of them had to go back to Taiwan.
Last edited by Liu on 27 Jun 2014 18:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gashish »

First of all look at the yearly data or even multiple years data (As monthly data can be skewed by various factors including recent launch of new model, promotions etc). Apple will be up there in the top 10.

http://venturebeat.com/2013/08/06/apple ... -with-4-8/

Secondly, you need to understand the difference between "premium" segment vs "mass" segment. Apple pricing is to skim the market and target only the premium consumers, it has no aspiration to compete in the mass segment and be volume leader (though it looks like it will be bring its prices down further in next releases in china as it is slipping in market share. Its mainly because "innovation" level is not same anymore)

For every product category there will be 100s of Chinese vendors. I tell this from experience. I manage portfolio of products/brands for a MNC both in China and India (and globally). The biggest threat in China I see is fake/copied products. Chinese competitors (which number in 100s!!) don't even figure in our calculus. I cant say same about India.

As of today Chinese brands are 2nd tier in China market. However, I am not saying all Chinese brands will remain there forever. Some are gaining ground, mostly in white goods sector (hisense, midea), besides well-known brands in internet sector(Tencent, Baidu). I, particularly, fancy Li Ning as well.

Btw, if we are to use volume yardstick, do you know which is the largest selling beer in the world? Snow, a brand very few outside china would have heard of...:)
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

gashish wrote:First of all look at the yearly data or even multiple years data (As monthly data can be skewed by various factors including recent launch of new model, promotions etc). Apple will be up there in the top 10.

http://venturebeat.com/2013/08/06/apple ... -with-4-8/

Secondly, you need to understand the difference between "premium" segment vs "mass" segment. Apple pricing is to skim the market and target only the premium consumers, it has no aspiration to compete in the mass segment and be volume leader (though it looks like it will be bring its prices down further in next releases in china as it is slipping in market share. Its mainly because "innovation" level is not same anymore)

For every product category there will be 100s of Chinese vendors. I tell this from experience. I manage portfolio of products/brands for a MNC both in China and India (and globally). The biggest threat in China I see is fake/copied products. Chinese competitors (which number in 100s!!) don't even figure in our calculus. I cant say same about India.

As of today Chinese brands are 2nd tier in China market. However, I am not saying all Chinese brands will remain there forever. Some are gaining ground, mostly in white goods sector (hisense, midea). I particular fancy Li Ning as well.

Btw, if we are to use volume yardstick, do you know which is the largest selling beer in the world? Snow, a brand very few outside china would have heard of...:)
well, here is a share of AC sale in China market;
the top 3 leader are all local brand: Gree,Haier and Hisense . they occupied 71.1% of all AC sale.
of top 10, only 2 are foreign brand(panasonic and mitsubishi. their total share is less 5%
the poll is qutely consistent with my personal experience. after all, all 3AC in my house and 3 AC in my parents house are all Gree.
the AC in my mother in law is Haier.

Image

in fact, so is in TV set market, local brands, such as TCL,hisense and Konka is obvously the leaders.
Last edited by Liu on 27 Jun 2014 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Rishirishi »

Liu wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:
I have been involved with imports and and confirm that most Chinese brands deliberately aim for the lower end of the market and produce cheaper products by using lower cost components. In the long run, I am sure some of these brands will be able to get a better reputation and command a better price. But for now it is not like that.
the reason why made in CHina is cheaper is quite complicated.
it is wrong of you to simplify it with "using lower cost components".
In fact, the performance of Xiaomi or Huawei cellphone is even better than Sansumg,but their price is only 1/2 of 2/3 of Sansumg.
Huawei's telecom facility is also as good as Errison,but it price is also much lower than Eerrison.
China's highspeed trains is as good as Japan/france/German,if not better,but it is still cheaper than Japan/France/German highspeed trains.

many factors are combined and eventually make CHina product-cost much lower than developed countries and other developing countries,such as competely industry chains( it means low stock cost and low import cost), world-class infrastructures(it means low freight cost),pro- business administration( less business cost), disiplined and literaed workers( good productivity).

For example:

when Foxcon decided to relocate its million-jobs industry zone to ZHengzhou, a inland CHina city, the local pro-business government made land and all procedures ready in one months, and the huge new industry zone was finished from scrach in only 6 months which decreased the business cost;

years before it, thousands of expressways had been built in the province ,it made the city had world-class infrastructure,it decreased the feight cost;

after the industry zone was finished, thousands of components supplier also moved into the city with Foxcon, it decreased the stock cost;

the labour cost in the city is till lower than moderate developed economies like Taiwan,and worker here are more literated, disciplined and productitive than that in other developing countries, it decreased productive cost;





China is no longer a cheap country any more. One requires at least RMb 20K per month to lead a decent middle class life. Very different from arround year 2000, when 3-5K RMb would be sufficient. Hence Chinese companies have to move up the value chain. They can,t rely on the "simmilar quality, lower price" concept. Hence companies in China will be forced to innovate and create products that command better prices. I think the private sector will manage this fine, but public sector industry will definately have a hard time.
1. the difference between CHina in 2000 and China in 2014 is quite huge. it is even more huge than that between USA in 2014 and USA in 1934, I think.
in 2000, the house price of Beijing was just 2000-4000 RMB/per square meter
now, it is 40000RMB/square meter now ;
in 2000, the house price of countytowns here was 500-800RMB/per square meter,
now, it is 4000-6000RMB/square meter;
in 2000, the monthly salary of most CHinese was 500-1000 RMB;
now, it is 2000-5000RMB

2. in fact ,in 2000,3-5K RMB/month was enough to make one guy live a luxery life ,with dedicated nurse and housekeeper.

after all , the average month wage of CHinese was only 600RMB or so,maybe.


3. 10 years ago, many Taiwanese veterans had mainland CHina as retirement paradise , because their monthly penson was 30-70K RMB(400-800USD) and was enough to make they live a luxery retired life they could not imagined in Taiwan.

But now, even Chinese peasant workers can earn more than those Taiwanese veterans, so those Taiwanese verterans' real life quality made a dive down. many of them had to go back to Taiwan.
I think you are overstating the advantages of free land and cheap infrastructure. It is NOT. There are some tax advantages, but most countries would offer that. Chinas manufacturing revolution was a product of low wages. As a matter of fact a lot of the lower end of the manufacturing has already started to relocate to places like Vietnam.

Have you got any proof that Chinese High speed trains are better then the western counterparts. Also your argument of "more littrate, organized and hard working" smells of Han Chauvnism. In India chinese powerplants, trains and buses have proven to be of very low standard. As a matter of fact a lot of private manufacturars demand that Chinese supplied parts are not used. To even suggest that Chinese products surpass German and Japanese products is outright stupid.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Rishirishi wrote: I think you are overstating the advantages of free land and cheap infrastructure. It is NOT. There are some tax advantages, but most countries would offer that. Chinas manufacturing revolution was a product of low wages. As a matter of fact a lot of the lower end of the manufacturing has already started to relocate to places like Vietnam.

Have you got any proof that Chinese High speed trains are better then the western counterparts. Also your argument of "more littrate, organized and hard working" smells of Han Chauvnism. In India chinese powerplants, trains and buses have proven to be of very low standard. As a matter of fact a lot of private manufacturars demand that Chinese supplied parts are not used. To even suggest that Chinese products surpass German and Japanese products is outright stupid.
1. free land is meaningless itself......
in fact, if necesary, black africa can provide much more "free land" than anyone else..

case is that CHina can upgrade "free meanlingless land" to "well-planned valuable land" while African can not.

well, in the hands of black Africans, lots of land might means lots of meanlingless forest, but if the same land were in the hands of Chinese, Chinese might set up many modernized cities over it.
that is difference.

2. vietnam can not prouduce upstream material,maching tool and other necessory facilities...
it can not become a complete-industry-chain suppliers like CHina.
The more Vietnam exports, the more material and upstream components it has to import.
That is why Vietnam now has huge trade deficit.
however,CHina has huge trade surplus.

3. frankly speaking, many "made-in-China" exported to developing coutries are "designed" speically according to the order...
and those orders usually ask the producer to lower the quality for lower the price.
that is why the quality of "made in China" in China and developed market is usually much better than that in many developing countries.

any kind of demand always creates the corespondent supply.
some developing countries need those "low quality" goods, so CHina supplys such "low quality" to them..
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by jamwal »

As an average Joe who has worked with Chinese equipment in past, I an say this. Most of Chinese electronic equipment brands including Huawei, ZTE, Anda etc were cheap copies of Cisco, Nortel etc. The prices were 10-15% of MNC brands but performance and build quality was atrocious. I've been out of this field for some time now, so don't know how they are faring now. But for a legitimate business in for long term, buying a $ 1000 Cisco switch is more beneficial than buying any Chinese brand worth $ 200.
Chinese brands gained market in past due to some cut throat offerings and soft loans kind of shady business practices which are unsustainable in a normal economy.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

jamwal wrote:As an average Joe who has worked with Chinese equipment in past, I an say this. Most of Chinese electronic equipment brands including Huawei, ZTE, Anda etc were cheap copies of Cisco, Nortel etc. The prices were 10-15% of MNC brands but performance and build quality was atrocious. I've been out of this field for some time now, so don't know how they are faring now. But for a legitimate business in for long term, buying a $ 1000 Cisco switch is more beneficial than buying any Chinese brand worth $ 200.
Chinese brands gained market in past due to some cut throat offerings and soft loans kind of shady business practices which are unsustainable in a normal economy.
Nortel now has bankrupted and Cisco could hardly survive even in North America,without the protection of Usa government. besides,Huawei' revenue is almost equal to errison,but its yearly profit is 3 times more
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by jamwal »

Liu wrote: Nortel now has bankrupted and Cisco could hardly survive even in North America,without the protection of Usa government. besides,Huawei' revenue is almost equal to errison,but its yearly profit is 3 times more

Chinese companies couldn't have offered those cut throat prices even for that trash without Chinese govt bankrolling them.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by gashish »

Liu wrote: Nortel now has bankrupted and Cisco could hardly survive even in North America,without the protection of Usa government. besides,Huawei' revenue is almost equal to errison,but its yearly profit is 3 times more
:rotfl: pot calling the kettle black. there is probably not a single major enterprise in china which doesn't have govt. investment or patronage or protection.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

gashish wrote:
Liu wrote: Nortel now has bankrupted and Cisco could hardly survive even in North America,without the protection of Usa government. besides,Huawei' revenue is almost equal to errison,but its yearly profit is 3 times more
:rotfl: pot calling the kettle black. there is probably not a single major enterprise in china which doesn't have govt. investment or patronage or protection.
1.telecome infrastructures is closely connected with national security,so if one country has their own telecom infrastructure producers, its national sencurity would be in great trouble.

so,it is quite nature for CHina or USA to protect their own telecom infrasturcture producers like Huawei and Cisco .
However, it is quite obvious that Cisco now is in the defensive position while Huawei is quite aggressive.

BTW,
Nortel ,Nokia and Motorola have bankrupted. Simens also has quit.
the only remarkable producers of telecom infrastructure in the world are Cisco,Errisson,Huawei and ZTE.
It also means that except USA(cisco),EU(Errison) and CHina(huawei and ZTE), no countries can protect their cyberspace and information safety.

2. as for governmental support, GM is not more innocent than FAW
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by jamwal »

One more example of quality of Chinese stuff. Brand new metro trains brought from China for Mumbai leaking water.

Image
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by satya »

What's with the chinese and babymilk hoarding?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by jamwal »

Most expatriates don't trust Chinese baby formulas and get it imported. Hoarding happens due to high demand.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Rishirishi »

Liu wrote:
Rishirishi wrote: I think you are overstating the advantages of free land and cheap infrastructure. It is NOT. There are some tax advantages, but most countries would offer that. Chinas manufacturing revolution was a product of low wages. As a matter of fact a lot of the lower end of the manufacturing has already started to relocate to places like Vietnam.

Have you got any proof that Chinese High speed trains are better then the western counterparts. Also your argument of "more littrate, organized and hard working" smells of Han Chauvnism. In India chinese powerplants, trains and buses have proven to be of very low standard. As a matter of fact a lot of private manufacturars demand that Chinese supplied parts are not used. To even suggest that Chinese products surpass German and Japanese products is outright stupid.
1. free land is meaningless itself......
in fact, if necesary, black africa can provide much more "free land" than anyone else..

case is that CHina can upgrade "free meanlingless land" to "well-planned valuable land" while African can not.

well, in the hands of black Africans, lots of land might means lots of meanlingless forest, but if the same land were in the hands of Chinese, Chinese might set up many modernized cities over it.
that is difference.

2. vietnam can not prouduce upstream material,maching tool and other necessory facilities...
it can not become a complete-industry-chain suppliers like CHina.
The more Vietnam exports, the more material and upstream components it has to import.
That is why Vietnam now has huge trade deficit.
however,CHina has huge trade surplus.

3. frankly speaking, many "made-in-China" exported to developing coutries are "designed" speically according to the order...
and those orders usually ask the producer to lower the quality for lower the price.
that is why the quality of "made in China" in China and developed market is usually much better than that in many developing countries.

any kind of demand always creates the corespondent supply.
some developing countries need those "low quality" goods, so CHina supplys such "low quality" to them..


I think you have bought the CCP propoganda. China is suffering from an overspending and corruption on a monumental scale.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

jamwal wrote:One more example of quality of Chinese stuff. Brand new metro trains brought from China for Mumbai leaking water.

Image
well, in CHinese BBS, some engineers discussed it.

They said that it seemed that the Maintenance workers forgot turning off the waterproof outlets of AC in the metro trains.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

jamwal wrote:Most expatriates don't trust Chinese baby formulas and get it imported. Hoarding happens due to high demand.
in fact, I also feed my 17-month-old son with imported Friso baby fomulas.
the imported baby fomulus is damn expensive here.
Every monthly I have to spend almost 160USD on buying baby fomulus.
Since some scandals happened to local brand baby fomula (Sanlu Scandal) , many Chinese youth couples have lost their confidence on local brand baby fomulas .

Because most Chinese young parents have only one baby, they would try their best to provide best food and education for their sole kid as possible as they can. SO would my wife and I.
So, though imported baby fomulus is always 2-3 times more expensive than local brand, CHiense young parents like my wife and me would always buy imported one as long as they can afford.

it will be a long way for Chinese local brand baby formulas to restore their repulation among CHinese market.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

Rishirishi wrote:
Liu wrote:1. free land is meaningless itself......
in fact, if necesary, black africa can provide much more "free land" than anyone else..

case is that CHina can upgrade "free meanlingless land" to "well-planned valuable land" while African can not.

well, in the hands of black Africans, lots of land might means lots of meanlingless forest, but if the same land were in the hands of Chinese, Chinese might set up many modernized cities over it.
that is difference.

2. vietnam can not prouduce upstream material,maching tool and other necessory facilities...
it can not become a complete-industry-chain suppliers like CHina.
The more Vietnam exports, the more material and upstream components it has to import.
That is why Vietnam now has huge trade deficit.
however,CHina has huge trade surplus.

3. frankly speaking, many "made-in-China" exported to developing coutries are "designed" speically according to the order...
and those orders usually ask the producer to lower the quality for lower the price.
that is why the quality of "made in China" in China and developed market is usually much better than that in many developing countries.

any kind of demand always creates the corespondent supply.
some developing countries need those "low quality" goods, so CHina supplys such "low quality" to them..


I think you have bought the CCP propoganda. China is suffering from an overspending and corruption on a monumental scale.
1. "corruption" has different definition in west countries and China.
many case is " illgel corruption" in CHIna, but is legal in west countries, such as openly lobby and accepting post-retire high-income position in commerce enterprises.
According to Chinese definition of "corruption" , most senators and former presidents in USA would have been put into prisons.

2. many indians guys and west guys thought that CHinese heavy investment on infrastructures such high-speed raiways is " overspending" ...
I hope that you are not among them.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by panduranghari »

China's "Giant Ponzi Scheme" Won't End Well: Jim Rickards

http://finance.yahoo.com/video/chinas-g ... 44992.html
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Hari Seldon »

panduranghari wrote:China's "Giant Ponzi Scheme" Won't End Well: Jim Rickards

http://finance.yahoo.com/video/chinas-g ... 44992.html
I've heard that once too often. Yawn and move on, only.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

I suggest modafinil, and move on.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech ... 850379.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech ... 863644.cms

Xiaomi, the Chinese device major known for selling high-end smartphones at budget prices, has finally arrived in India. The company has kicked off its Indian operations with the launch of Mi 3, its flagship device that features high-end hardware rivalling the likes of Nexus 5, but costs almost half the price. Is it the best smartphone you can buy in terms of value for money? We find out in our Xiaomi Mi 3 review...
Mi3 now has come to india ....it seems quite popular among indians ...

is any indian here to buy one?

I now use Mi3 too. it performances better than Sangsumng G4 my wife is using.
I bought it 3 month ago, it costed me 1800RMB( about 18000Rupees) at that time..
but now it costs only 1499RMB (about 15000Rupees),because MI4 is out and MI3 is almost outdated now.


my wife once wanted to buy one sansumg Galaxy 5 ,which costs 5000RMB ( almost 50000Rupees). but now She has changed his idea and is now also going to order one MI4.
and I am not going to buy one MI4 until the next year, after all, the mi3 I am using was bought just 3 months ago.
Last edited by Liu on 24 Jul 2014 14:14, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

repeate post,pls delete.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by panduranghari »

satya wrote:What's with the chinese and babymilk hoarding?
I am normally an ebay buyer. But sold huge quantities of Aptamil, Cow&Gate baby infant formula milk to chinese via ebay. I sold it for double UK price + postage. Made good profit. Supermarkets are now are selling max 2 boxes per transaction. With more people doing it, the profit margins are lower, so i don't do it any more. It was my wife who spotted the trend. CREDIT TO HER FOR HER ACUMEN.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by panduranghari »

Hari Seldon wrote:
panduranghari wrote:China's "Giant Ponzi Scheme" Won't End Well: Jim Rickards

http://finance.yahoo.com/video/chinas-g ... 44992.html
I've heard that once too often. Yawn and move on, only.
Jimbo is good at spotting trends. He rarely says things without being confident.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by milanforever »

http://www.globalinnovationindex.org/co ... a-analysis

The Global Innovation Index 2014 (GII) was released at the B20 Australia Summit held in Sydney on 18 July 2014.

The GII 2014 confirms the continued existence of global innovation divides even within income groups. All top 25 economies are in the high-income group. China and Malaysia are the only upper-middle income countries getting closer to these ranks. China ranks at 29, Malaysia at 33.

The BRICS economies show signs of divergence, with China improving at a significantly faster pace than its BRICS counterparts and India slipping back.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

Dhoom:3 takes China by storm, debuts in the top ten chart
Bollywood superhit Dhoom: 3, which reportedly opened on 2,000 screens in 400 Chinese cities, has entered the Chinese top ten chart.

After storming the Turkish box office and becoming the only Indian film to get to the Turkish Top 10, “Dhoom:3”, Yash Raj Films (YRF) offering, has now entered the Chinese Top 10 Charts at number 9, said a statement from the film's production house.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by member_22539 »

Ding wrote:The BRICS economies show signs of divergence, with China improving at a significantly faster pace than its BRICS counterparts and India slipping back.

Ya, keep telling yourself that. Things change and have changed big time in India.
India is set to be Asia's biggest turnaround story and the country's GDP growth is expected to rise to over 6 per cent in FY15 and over 7 per cent in FY16, Japanese brokerage Nomura has said in a report.According to Nomura, 2014 would mark an inflection point and 2016 will be a watershed year as Indian economy will start outpacing China.
http://profit.ndtv.com/news/economy/art ... y15-590904
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by KLP Dubey »

Ding wrote: All top 25 economies are in the high-income group. China and Malaysia are the only upper-middle income countries getting closer to these ranks. China ranks at 29, Malaysia at 33.
Malaysian innovation... :rotfl:
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Sri »

Dear Liu,

I have a colleague who bought one Mi3 recently. There were a lot of localisation issues. The charge plug is not of Indian standards. Even the user Manual was in Chinese. May be as market matures Xioami will do more localization. My friend is not complaining.
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