PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Sri » 15 Jan 2012 09:02

zlin wrote:30-story building built in 15 days by a Chinese company


Zlin Ji mind boggling :eek: :eek: .... I am sure this can't happen in India or even the US.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby krishnan » 15 Jan 2012 09:32

How long did it stay up ???

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Virupaksha » 15 Jan 2012 09:42

I am ignorant about construction, but is the crane now permanently part of the building??

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Sri » 15 Jan 2012 09:59

Virupaksha wrote:I am ignorant about construction, but is the crane now permanently part of the building??


It is now called lift. To save time onlee...

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Purush » 15 Jan 2012 12:24

Sri wrote:It is now called lift. To save time onlee...


:rotfl:

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 16 Jan 2012 02:30

gakakkad wrote:one of the biggest mistakes these idiots have made w.r.t HSRs is that they don't take freight. trains cant profit without cargo.


One of the purpose of the passenger dedicated new HSR routes is to separate passenger and freight trains which have much different speeds and priorities, so the whole system is much more efficient and profitable. Most of Chinese newly built HSR lines run parallelly with existing lines. By freeing up capacity from removing passenger trains from existing tracks, you can run much more freight trains with much easier scheduling since they have similar speed and priorities. Just like showing in this map.

BTW, the old Beijing-Shanghai or Beijing-Shenzhen or other existing track which having or will have HSR tracks running parallelly have already been upgraded to the standards that many countries call HSR, which can run 200km per hour and run heavy freight on them.

Image

This is a post from an Indian experienced Chinese HSR recently. It is a good reading, and some of pictures can answer whether HSR is a white elephane or not.

An Indian's experience of HSR in China

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 16 Jan 2012 10:02

zlin wrote:30-story building built in 15 days by a Chinese company


Like all things Chinese, once you scratch the surface and dig a bit, you come up with some very "interesting" facts. :-)

According to Cnet
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57357524-76/chinese-build-skyscraper-in-just-15-days/

The secret sauce behind the project is this:

To expedite the process, sections of the building were prefabricated in factories and shipped to the site before construction, the news site wrote.


The question to ask is, how long did the pre-fab parts take to build in the factory?

Using pre-fab concrete sections of buildings and just joining them like lego bricks for fast construction is hardly cutting edge. That method is used all over Southeast Asia where, unlike in India, building walls are made of concrete (pre fabricated at factories). So...

And yes please remember the 324 metres Effile Tower was built in two-years in 1887. And it was a far more challenging construction since it wasn't as simple as cementing one pre-fab piece over the other.

The CNet comment section has an interesting comment:

And it will fall down like Jenga blocks in 15 days. LOL


:-)

If anyone thinks that the Chinese building boom is on the wane, here's what the builder of this wonder has to say:

Rapid construction reduced waste and energy, he told the news site. "We need to speed up our environmental thinking. We need buildings like this all over China," he said.
Apparently Yue intends to keep building these pre-fabs around the country. "In 2013 we will build 20 buildings a month and by 2014, we'll be up to 50 buildings a month," he told NEWS.com.au.


So you'll have identical looking (the nature of pre-fab construction) buildings coming up all over China. Imagine one whole city block of exactly the same looking 30 storey towers, all built within 15 days! :eek:

More power to China; rather more power to CPC!

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 16 Jan 2012 16:59

A lot of us lament the fact that India does not have Foxconn type mega factories in India, like the one in Shenzhen which employs 430,000 people in one complex! :eek:

However, the model wouldn't work in India and I can't say I'm too unhappy with that after reading this

· The Chinese city of Shenzhen is where most of our "crap" is made. 30 years ago, Shenzhen was a little village on a river. Now it's a city of 13 million people — bigger than New York.

· Foxconn, one of the companies that builds iPhones and iPads (and products for many other electronics companies), has a factory in Shenzhen that employs 430,000 people.

· There are 20 cafeterias at the Foxconn Shenzhen plant. They each serve 10,000 people.

· One Foxconn worker Mike Daisey interviewed, outside factory gates manned by guards with guns, was a 13-year old girl. She polished the glass of thousands of new iPhones a day.

· The 13-year old said Foxconn doesn't really check ages. There are on-site inspections, from time to time, but Foxconn always knows when they're happening. And before the inspectors arrive, Foxconn just replaces the young-looking workers with older ones.

· In the first two hours outside the factory gates, Daisey meets workers who say they are 14, 13, and 12 years old (along with plenty of older ones). Daisey estimates that about 5% of the workers he talked to were underage.

· Daisey assumes that Apple, obsessed as it is with details, must know this. Or, if they don't, it's because they don't want to know.

· Daisey visits other Shenzhen factories, posing as a potential customer. He discovers that most of the factory floors are vast rooms filled with 20,000-30,000 workers apiece. The rooms are quiet: There's no machinery, and there's no talking allowed. When labor costs so little, there's no reason to build anything other than by hand. {So much for China's famed super efficient manufacturing abilities. Slave labor is always very efficient}

· A Chinese working "hour" is 60 minutes — unlike an American "hour," which generally includes breaks for Facebook, the bathroom, a phone call, and some conversation. The official work day in China is 8 hours long, but the standard shift is 12 hours. Generally, these shifts extend to 14-16 hours, especially when there's a hot new gadget to build. While Daisey is in Shenzhen, a Foxconn worker dies after working a 34-hour shift.

· Assembly lines can only move as fast as their slowest worker, so all the workers are watched (with cameras). Most people stand.

· The workers stay in dormitories. In a 12-by-12 cement cube of a room, Daisey counts 15 beds, stacked like drawers up to the ceiling. Normal-sized Americans would not fit in them.

· Unions are illegal in China. Anyone found trying to unionize is sent to prison.

· Daisey interviews dozens of (former) workers who are secretly supporting a union. One group talked about using "hexane," an iPhone screen cleaner. Hexane evaporates faster than other screen cleaners, which allows the production line to go faster. Hexane is also a neuro-toxin. The hands of the workers who tell him about it shake uncontrollably.

· Some workers can no longer work because their hands have been destroyed by doing the same thing hundreds of thousands of times over many years (mega-carpal-tunnel). This could have been avoided if the workers had merely shifted jobs. Once the workers' hands no longer work, obviously, they're canned.

· One former worker had asked her company to pay her overtime, and when her company refused, she went to the labor board. The labor board put her on a black list that was circulated to every company in the area. The workers on the black list are branded "troublemakers" and companies won't hire them.

· One man got his hand crushed in a metal press at Foxconn. Foxconn did not give him medical attention. When the man's hand healed, it no longer worked. So they fired him. (Fortunately, the man was able to get a new job, at a wood-working plant. The hours are much better there, he says — only 70 hours a week).

· The man, by the way, made the metal casings of iPads at Foxconn. Daisey showed him his iPad. The man had never seen one before. He held it and played with it. He said it was "magic."


So much for the world's second biggest ekhanomy!

Also its useful to remember that Foxconn is a hugely profitable company. But you know what? It's a Taiwanese company and they know that they wouldn't be able to set up such a factory in Taiwan! And they just don't make Apple products but just about every major manufacturer uses the "services" of these 430,000 - what shall we call them, workers? So a Taiwanese company uses what virtually amounts to bonded Chinese labor to produce stuff for an American company. And both companies enjoy super high margins. Again, long live CPC!

A companion piece to go with the article above.

I'd like our Chinese friends to comment. I'm sure they can dig up some pictures of Indian "underage" workers and "bad" working conditions! :-)

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 16 Jan 2012 18:50

In China there're worse factories than Foxconn. The Fonconn provides its workers with swiming pool, cinema, sports center etc.

China is a loser and I don't think a brilliant man such as you have to prove it.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Shankas » 16 Jan 2012 19:16

sha wrote:In China there're worse factories than Foxconn. The Fonconn provides its workers with swiming pool, cinema, sports center etc.


I too have heard that Foxconn provides these amazing facilities and more. Buildings are covered with nets to protect workers practicing "Parkour" on rooftops.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 16 Jan 2012 19:37

Shankas wrote:
sha wrote:In China there're worse factories than Foxconn. The Fonconn provides its workers with swiming pool, cinema, sports center etc.


I too have heard that Foxconn provides these amazing facilities and more. Buildings are covered with nets to protect workers practicing "Parkour" on rooftops.


What you heard is true. It's very pathetic. Based on the sad story, I understand Indians will say no to Foxconn and the like.
Let the Chinese suffer.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Yagnasri » 16 Jan 2012 20:21

What is "Parkour" gurus?

I visited a cloth manufacuring unit in Bangalore few days back. I am not sure about the working hours etc. But factory seems to be nice and unit is with fans etc. The Personal Department people in fact invited me to eat in their canteen for staff saying that the food there is quite good. There is no underage kids etc. I do not claim I know everything that is happening there but the unit seems to be heaven from what is Chiland gives. But what else you can expect from communist rule other than this workers paradise.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Singha » 16 Jan 2012 20:34

I have a serious question. obviously the foxconn kind of work hrs and stress will take its toll over time. do people work well into their 50s at such plants or are they replaced with younger people on the production line? so the older workers if they are let go, do they find other work in same area, or go back to their villages and small towns and do something there? what is the avg tenure in the coastal area of a typical migrant worker who has left her/his family behind to live in the dorm and work?

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 17 Jan 2012 04:10

Actually Foxconn has a massive facility in Chennai that employs about 20,000 workers. They are in the process of expanding to 40,000 and eventually plan to have about 500,000 workers in India.

There was some early unpleasantness with some strikes and union tussles when they tried to import their China 'practices' wholesale. There was significant push back esp. for better pay. Most issues have now been resolved and they pretty much operate like an IT company and treat the workers quite well. No 12 hour shift with out overtime pay here. Union and management actually get along really well now, mostly. I have heard on the grape vine that the Chennai factory productivity makes heads turn back in Head office Taiwan now.

Foxconn mistreatment of young Chinese is a function of CPC and its contempt for working proles.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Shankas » 17 Jan 2012 04:27

Narayana Rao wrote:What is "Parkour" gurus?


Parkour

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby VikramS » 17 Jan 2012 05:45

zlin:

The discussion on HSR is not to do with its beauty buts its economic viability. vina had a number of discussions about that.

The crux was that HSR is unsustainable in most corridors even in rich countries. In a country like China where the majority of the population is still relatively less rich, HSR will not be able to generate enough revenue to be viable. From whatever has come out about the economic viability of HSRs, what vina said is turning out to be true.

As others point out, unlike airplanes where capacity can be added and removed based on demand, HSRs require a HUGE, FIXED, up-front expense. China's low interest rates, and simple land acquisition policies may alleviate some of those costs, but in the longer term the ROI is questionable, especially with more efficient aircraft and low cost airlines proliferating.

I think there is a lot to learn from the Chinese experiment in terms of the efficiencies bought about via cheap infrastructure, fast-track land acquisitions and training of labor for skilled crafts (like welders, fitters and other required for factories/construction). However it has to be done with an Indian face; CPC style slave labor will not survive too long in India. But while it is important to recognize workers' rights, it is also critical to ensure that investors and companies are not forced to pay an unreasonable costs which makes their products unviable with the global competition.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 17 Jan 2012 06:07

sha wrote:In China there're worse factories than Foxconn. The Fonconn provides its workers with swiming pool, cinema, sports center etc.

China is a loser and I don't think a brilliant man such as you have to prove it.


Ouch! Must have touched a raw nerve somewhere. :D

But your right Foxconn does provide many facilities to its workers, for example:

1) Safety. What do you think the armed guards at the gate are for?

2) Very fair and continual assessment of the hard work the workers put it. That's why their are cameras to monitor individual workers.

3) And hey they have cafeterias, good ones at that. The cafeteria has to be good to be able to provide for 10,000 workers. I'm sure every one of them gets sumptuous meals.

4) And how many companies provide such cosy accommodation to its workers. I'm sure the 15 or so workers crammed into a 12 by 12 room must be happily swapping stories of their heroic deeds on the shop floor before falling asleep, eagerly waiting for the next day's adventure.

5) Heck the company even provides stimulants" like hexane to its works. How many companies in the world can claim to be so generous?

So you see, even a dull guy like me (you're totally off track when you call be brilliant, ask anyone on this forum) can see how well off employees at Foxconns Shezhen factory are. I'm sure workers at other Foxconn facilities outside China are jealous.

Jokes apart, you're right there are other factories in China where the working conditions are even worse.

Like I've said before, so much for the famed productivity of Chinese workers. Slave labor/bonded labor was/is always more productive than normal unionised workers.

So, let's all shout together: Long live CPC!

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 17 Jan 2012 06:09

Theo_Fidel wrote:Actually Foxconn has a massive facility in Chennai that employs about 20,000 workers. They are in the process of expanding to 40,000 and eventually plan to have about 500,000 workers in India.

There was some early unpleasantness with some strikes and union tussles when they tried to import their China 'practices' wholesale. There was significant push back esp. for better pay. Most issues have now been resolved and they pretty much operate like an IT company and treat the workers quite well. No 12 hour shift with out overtime pay here. Union and management actually get along really well now, mostly. I have heard on the grape vine that the Chennai factory productivity makes heads turn back in Head office Taiwan now.


Interesting. I didn't know about this. What do they make at the Chennai factory? If Foxconn is thinking of ramping up to the levels you say, then I think that's great testament to the fact that our infrastructure is getting better. Good infra which allows efficient supply chains is the life blood of contract manufacturers like Foxconn.

Let me read up more on this Chennai factory.

Foxconn mistreatment of young Chinese is a function of CPC and its contempt for working proles.


Absolutely spot on. One reason why even imagine concious companies like Apple also don't give a damn.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby VikramS » 17 Jan 2012 06:19

The thing about infrastructure is that it does not have to happen on a national scale. India is a big enough country, and also a peninsular country. All you need are self-contained zones with their own port, adequate power supply and decent enough rail connections to supply raw materials like coal, iron-ore etc. These raw-materials do not need just-in-time kind of efficiency so even if the feeder network is not up to the best standards, reserves can be built to prevent any downstream effects.

I think what is happening in Gujarat is an example of that. Perhaps it will be the federal nature of the Indian system which will allow it to thrive in spite of the INC.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 17 Jan 2012 06:32

VikramS wrote:I think what is happening in Gujarat is an example of that. Perhaps it will be the federal nature of the Indian system which will allow it to thrive in spite of the INC.


You're absolutely right. I'm also a great believer in the experiment which Narendra Modi is conducting in Gujarat. The thing that strikes me is that if you really give development to people then all the talk about anti-incumbency factor during elections turns out to be bull shit. Modi has proved it. Nitish Kumar has done the same in Bihar. I would love to see Jayalalitha do the same in Tamil Nadu. The lady may be a maverick but in some things she knows what needs to be done. I think it's no accident that Chennai has become a major auto hub and Foxconn has set up its factory in Chennai.

I feel these leaders will pay a huge part in India's development story.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Singha » 17 Jan 2012 08:02

foxconn makes components of mobile phone in chennai plant, to feed the big phone factories nearby.

whether or not we go HSR, I hope we build the nice airport type stations .... obviously has to be a totally greenfield job, the creaking 100+ yr old current mega stations can in no way be retrofitted for this.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby wrdos » 17 Jan 2012 08:24

Chinese economic data of 2012 was released just now.

Nominal GDP: 47.156 trillion Yuan (about US$7.3 trillion)
Per Capita GDP: 35008 Yuan (US$5449)
Annual growth rate: 9.2%

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Gus » 17 Jan 2012 08:35

Serious question here for Chinese posters..

Do you feel that this is the only way to prosperity for China? export driven strategy on the backs of exploited young and poor while the money is spent on glitz and show (not talking about really useful infrastructure part...but the ones like HSR, three gorges dam, ghost towns, etc) and the policy makers have authority but no accountability..

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 17 Jan 2012 08:41

admit, I think you're overreacting to my post. You can see that I totally agree with you on the Foxconn thing. Who can argue on your brilliant point and deep insight? Shame on the Chinese which choose to be blind to the sad truth. Like you I will own it to the CPC

Theo_Fideld has a good story of Foxconn in India (What's the pay like? 20000R/M ?). Very intresting. Indian workers are so lucky . Foxconn is so lucky. That's what called a win-win situtation. Based on the fact we can expect the outflow the manaufactuer from China to India. (Democary and efficiency,that's heaven! ) . Inida's 45% unemplayment means a huge labor pool. That make India a deatination for FDI even more attractive.


Well, I happned to read a another story in FT days ago which says:

"India’s oppressive poverty put him off altogether after a visit to Chennai . Now, Mr Leung is uncertain whether he will move production from China after all.
http://www.ftchinese.com/story/001041671/en

I think the author might make a hasty generalization and have bias against India. And it may be not proper to quote here. But who cares? Hasty generalization and bias view always work in this forum.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Hari Seldon » 17 Jan 2012 09:10

^^^ Clealy, the dlones are taking lessons in salcasm now...LOL. And many many more need to be taken before they can pull one off smoothly. Miss the JYang type smooth operators. Nowadays CPC is allotting third-rate drop-out dlones to plopagandize BRF, seems like..."sigh".

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby heech » 17 Jan 2012 09:29

Gus wrote:Serious question here for Chinese posters..

Do you feel that this is the only way to prosperity for China? export driven strategy on the backs of exploited young and poor while the money is spent on glitz and show (not talking about really useful infrastructure part...but the ones like HSR, three gorges dam, ghost towns, etc) and the policy makers have authority but no accountability..

Well, for such a serious question, then I will certainly attempt to give a serious answer. No, I don't feel like this is the *only* way to prosperity for China. There are several others that come to mind.

- we could take our accumulated wealth, and just head to Monte Carlo. We have a 50% chance of doubling our money over night.

- we could drill every hundred feet or so, and just pray that maybe we can luck into a few thousand oil fields / diamond mines. (Hat tip, ME / Africa.)

- we could invade less developed countries, plunder their wealth, and force them to buy our manufactured products at gunpoint. (Hat tip, Spain/Portugal/Britain)

- we could start planting poppies and/or manufacturing meth, and depend on drug addition to enslave foreign countries. (Hat tip, Britain.)

- we could always travel to a different under-populated planet, kill the natives, and then plunder their wealth. (Hat tip, Western Europe.)

- we could always hope that another superpower comes up to challenge the United States, and we can just whore ourselves out to one or the other in hopes of grabbing their economic crumbs. (Hat tip, South Korea.)

Or... we just have to make do with what we have, and "enslave" the poor. Indeed, I think it's a given in China today there is child labor, poor (dangerously unhealthy) working conditions, and hundreds of millions of people who work in menial/physical jobs that destroy their soul... in exchange for a few mere hundreds of dollars a month while eating crappy food while living in crowded conditions. Very sad, and I'm just thankful that I'm fortunate (and I emphasize the word fortune) to not be in their shoes.

So... the real question is, what's the alternative? Should they, perhaps, just eat cake instead?

All I know is that, in China today, an unprivileged young man/woman from a Chinese village in the poorest Chinese province has a decent probability of at least completing 9 grades of schooling and gaining literacy. That same young man/woman could then have reasonable confidence they can get a job, demeaning or difficult it might be, which will pay them $150-300 USD per month (+ room/board). He can take that money and work for 5-10 years, saving up $10,000 USD. He can take that money, return to the village of his birth, and build a tiled home, get married, buy home appliances, buy a motorcycle, and perhaps even invest in better farming equipment. Or, like 300 million other Chinese, he might just stay in the city, and raise a new family with all the economic opportunity that the urban areas provide.

I've been on/off in BR for almost a decade. Not much has changed. There've been an awful lot of Indians gleefully pointing out that, indeed, China remains a poor nation. Perhaps this comes as a surprise to you... but this is painfully obvious to almost all Chinese: China remains a very poor nation... but thank the fortunes, the Chinese (individually and as a people) are a little less poor today than we were last year, much less than 5 years ago, and incredibly less so versus where we were 10 years ago.

I, for one, am excited, gratified, thrilled by what China has achieved for her people over the last THREE decades... and for the sake of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of Chinese who remain impoverished, I only hope it continues for 5 more decades to come. That's probably how long it will take before people like you will run completely out of things to mock China for.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby ashi » 17 Jan 2012 09:49

Gus wrote:Serious question here for Chinese posters..

Do you feel that this is the only way to prosperity for China? export driven strategy on the backs of exploited young and poor while the money is spent on glitz and show (not talking about really useful infrastructure part...but the ones like HSR, three gorges dam, ghost towns, etc) and the policy makers have authority but no accountability..


If you called pulling hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in such a short time that have not been seen in history before as exploitation, what do you call ignoring and leaving the poor uneducated, malnutrition and perish in poverty? Majority of the Chinese are happy with the prosperity they are getting, no question about it.

HSR, three gorges dam are for shows? Public transportation system not necessarily making profit or have that effect immediately, but it plays a critical part in economy. Britain is going to do that too.

HS2: High-speed rail network gets go-ahead

You need to read more on three gorges dam.

It is okay to mock China in here, people doing that all the time for whatever reason, but if you seriously believe what some people write in here, obviously you need to have a reality check.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 17 Jan 2012 09:50

China's online population hits 513m

BEIJING - China had 513 million Internet users by the end of 2011, showing that 38.3 percent of Chinese people used the Internet, the country's network information center said Monday.

The China Internet Networks Information Center (CNNIC) said in a report posted on its website that the ratio was 4 percentage points higher compared to the previous year.

The report said the growth of China's Internet population has slowed from that of the past five years.

Since 2006, the proportion of Internet users to the country's total population rose by an average of around 6 percentage points annually.

"Further growth of the Internet population is going to be difficult, as those who have access to the Internet and the skills to use it have almost all turned into Internet users," the statement said.

People surfing the Internet with cell phones increased 17.5 percent year-on-year to 356 million by the end of last year.

There were 194 million Chinese people shopping online in 2011, up 20.8 percent from a year earlier, the report said.

China has the largest online population in the world as well as 23 percent of the world's total Internet users, according to the latest data from Internet World Stats.

(Xinhua)

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Three Gorges project generates 78.29b kwh of electricity in

Postby zlin » 17 Jan 2012 09:54

Three Gorges project generates 78.29b kwh of electricity in '11

YICHANG - The Three Gorges Power Plant, the country's largest hydropower project, generated 78.29 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity in 2011, China Yangtze Power Co said in Yichang, central China's Hubei province on Saturday.

Affected by reduced water inflow, the total power generation volume was down 7.2 percent compared with that of 2010, the company said in a statement.

The Three Gorges Dam has seen water inflow quantities from the upper reaches of the Yangtze River during the flood season drop by about fifty percent compared with other years.

In spite of this, the project's operator adopted optimized measures to control the water level and generator unit in order to minimize adverse effects, the statement said.

The Three Gorges project is a multi-functional water control system, consisting of a 2,309-meter-long, 185-meter-high dam, a five-tier ship lock, and 26 hydropower turbo-generators.

Construction on the $22.5-billion Three Gorges project in the mid-section of the Yangtze River began in 1993 and finished in 2009. It started generating electricity in 2003.

Meanwhile, the Gezhouba Dam on the Yangtze River generated 16.26 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity in 2011, a 0.14-percent year-on-year increase.

The Gezhouba Dam is located across the Yangtze River at the end of the Three Gorges, and 38 km away from the Three Gorges Dam on the upper reaches of the river.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 17 Jan 2012 10:06

Luxury sales aid world economy

High-end products appeal to nation's growing number of rich and middle class

BEIJING - What provides some relief in today's chilly global economic climate is not just the continuous growth of emerging countries as the world's economic engines, but also the strong performance of luxury goods, especially in China.

It is predicted that the value of luxury goods bought on the Chinese mainland will reach 100 billion yuan ($16 billion) in 2011 for the first time ever, with an annual growth rate of 25 to 30 percent, which means China is likely to surpass Japan as the world's largest purchaser of luxury goods in 2012, according to the latest report from Bain Capital.

Consultancy firm McKinsey & Co also expects China to be the largest luxury goods market in the world by 2015, accounting for more than 20 percent of global sales.

"At this pace, Chinese consumers will, in the medium to long term, make up 70 percent of the global luxury market's growth," said Bernard Malek, a partner at Roland Berger.

Financial results support their confidence, as the luxury brands, especially top-end manufacturers, have indeed benefited from soaring sales in China. Richemont, one of the world largest luxury groups, for example, has seen its share price triple from 2009 lows and now trades at 17 times 2011 forecast earnings, with 2.6 billion euros ($3.4 billion) net in cash. Burberry and Prada appear stretched on multiples of more than 20 times.

However, many high-end brands are finding the luxury market in China is different from the one they are used to in Japan.

Although the affluent population in Japan is much larger, in China the people who buy luxury goods are willing to spend a much bigger share of their income on them - 10 to 15 percent in China compared with only 4 percent in Japan, according to the latest McKinsey survey "Insight: China-luxury goods".

Also Chinese buyers of luxury goods are generally much younger, 15 to 20 years younger on average. Young consumers in Japan have been moving away from luxury goods due to the weak Japanese economy in recent years. Even working women who still live with their parents, once famous for their consumption of luxury goods, are not such prominent high-end spenders as they used to be. In China gift-giving is also a significant factor in the sales of luxury items.

It has taken less than five years for China to grow from a very small market for luxury brands to their most important market. Yuval Atsmon, a partner at McKinsey, who led the research on buyers of high-end brands, believes the reason for China's importance is "clearly due to its already huge size and the massive growth potential, but also due to high profitability levels, often better than other markets".

Allowing for the spending of Chinese shoppers abroad, which some brand managers estimate is similar to their spending in China, Chinese people could soon represent more than 50 percent of the business of outlets selling quality brands. For some that is the case today.

Lutz Bethge, global chief executive officer of Montblanc, said: "Apart from the similarities with other Asian markets, the Chinese mainland has unique characteristics in its faster growth of the wealthy population and its rising middle-class segment which not only represents growing consuming power, but also means a rapidly growing interest in luxury goods."

"What is remarkable in our experience is that the purchasing power from second- and third-tier cities in China has also been growing very fast," he added.

As with their expansion strategy in Japan, luxury brands in China are now under pressure to open more retail outlets in China since it is still far from being a saturated market. For instance, Herms at present has 20 shops in China, fewer than half of the number of shops it has in Japan. Chanel has only eight boutiques in China. There are more than 50 in Japan.

However, Atsmon said: "It is possible that even as Beijing or Shanghai become markets as big or bigger than Tokyo, there will be fewer but bigger stores. As for smaller cities, the brands want to reach more cities where there is a clear demand for their goods, but they must ensure they do not compromise their standards as they rush to expand, which is especially important in China, as for many consumers this will be their first exposure to the brand." Some brands are prepared to expand more slowly than others, concentrating on quality rather than quantity.

Montblanc, for instance, which has been investing in China for nearly 10 years, opened its "worldwide concept" store in Beijing on Jan 12, at which it will offer a unique customer experience for Chinese shoppers. As Montblanc's biggest investment in the Chinese market yet, the new four-level store in Sanlitun, displaying a full spectrum of its luxury collection, from its ever-growing range of genuine Swiss timepieces to writing instruments, leather, jewelry and accessories, is also the largest Montblanc boutique in the world. It indicates how important the China luxury market is seen by the brand.

China has become the largest market in the world for many top brands. Montblanc, although it now already operates nearly 100 boutiques across China, including the recent launch of a large new boutique in Guangzhou, still chose Beijing for its largest store, showing the brand's commitment and confidence in China.

Besides recruiting and training high quality shop assistants for boutiques, McKinsey also suggests luxury brands can leverage their cultural heritage since it can add value and increase the attraction of products for Chinese people.

Many brands are looking to exploit their heritage by building small museums and staging exhibitions. However, more than one-third of Chinese shoppers prefer products with Chinese designs and traditional elements, especially the emerging middle-class customers, according to McKinsey.

"It is critical to establish our luxury European brand heritage image well before we consider local elements because we need to make the customers believe in the brand first in terms of reliable quality, European craftsmanship and the prestigious status of owning a Monblanc product," said Bethge.

But even if they want to, luxury brands cannot ignore the preferences of Chinese buyers. For instance, the traditional desirability of gold for Chinese people mean that Montblanc watches and writing instruments that contain gold are their best sellers in China. They have also launched products specific to the Chinese market, such as the Fortune Number 8 writing instrument introduced in 2009 - eight is seen as the most auspicious number in China.

Some brands have gone as far as launching Chinese lines - most notably Shang Xia (topsy-turvy in Mandarin), a new brand established by Herms especially for China. Many brands now have exclusive lines for the Chinese market. This is a particular strong trend for watches.

Atsmon said: "We will see more Chinese designs, trends and insights influencing the European teams, very possibly with parts of the design team actually being in Shanghai. This trend is already being seen with some luxury car makers."

Because it will become the largest luxury market in the near future, those brands that have a strong position in China may need to behave as if they are Chinese companies. This will include not only their investment strategies and designs, but also management. While Japan has a very prominent share, the current trend in China suggests it will become a bigger market and therefore more important than Japan for the makers of luxury goods.


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sha
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 17 Jan 2012 10:13

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^ Clealy, the dlones are taking lessons in salcasm now...LOL. And many many more need to be taken before they can pull one off smoothly. Miss the JYang type smooth operators. Nowadays CPC is allotting third-rate drop-out dlones to plopagandize BRF, seems like..."sigh".


If I were a CPC propagandist, I would have got fired. You have made it clear that I'm only a third-rate drop-out and obviously not qualified for the job.

Luck for me I found a career in IT. Foxconn is frowned upon in my circle. I see eye to eye with admit on his view. However there are two sides for one coin. I just left other side unsaid to avoid label on me or further useless arguring. No salcasm in it.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Gus » 17 Jan 2012 10:51

heech wrote:snip


let me try to rephrase..

are you happy with what you have put in (exploited labor, tax payer money, lack of freedom etc) and what you got (GDP, infrastructure etc)?

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Sri » 17 Jan 2012 10:59

heech wrote:
I, for one, am excited, gratified, thrilled by what China has achieved for her people over the last THREE decades... and for the sake of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of Chinese who remain impoverished, I only hope it continues for 5 more decades to come. That's probably how long it will take before people like you will run completely out of things to mock China for.


Heech, I for one have had experience in dealing with China. And being an Indian I know Indian mentality too. I may not be the best person to tell you why at BRF China gets mocked (including myself), but I can try.

As for me the differences are 2:

1) historic: Through the ages our 2 civilizations have worked and improved upon 2 distinct approaches to prosperity. Chinese have always been manufacturers and us Indians traders.

China is today mass producer of almost everything, and historically China has been like that only. Your leaders in 70s recognized this poweress and and set up China to capitalize on it to the hilt. China today invests in massive infrastructural project, health and education. These are the basics of a successful manufacturing economy, which China is today. But like most manufacturers, China concentrates mainly at the topline. Idea being that if produce anything at large enough cheap enough scale, people will buy it. It is a strategy which works as you know. Individuals do not matter in this matrix. Idea is to build and build large.

India by comparison has been a trading nation. Hence we tend to concentrate (a little too much) on bottom line. Our businesses even our Government looks at a problem in 2 ways. 1) how much will it cost 2) will it be sustainable. Indians basically have a problem thinking about anything in short term. Even a tiny grocery guy thinks a lot before hiring even one employee, as culturally, we would like to ensure durability of any enterprise. This inadvertently make us very risk averse by nature.

Look at the figures, China needs FDI of approx 50 bn to grow at 10%, India needs 4 bn to grow at 8%. By far Indians feel this is optimal and sustainable for our long term prospects.

2) Current political and economic dispensation: We in India have something called democracy. In short it is a system designed for appeasement. Whereas Chinese planners can plan and implement large plans without a fear of retribution. Individuals do not matter. Further in your current system, there is almost no independent system of checks and balances. Hence it becomes very difficult for outsiders to believe on any number / fact / figure which comes out of China.

This is the basic reason, here at BR Chinese almost always gets mocked. We all feel and sometimes envy the claims the Chinese make, but at certain level we find it hard to believe. Even if Chinese posters here speak of gospel truth, we feel every number and claim is rigged. Since in Chinese culture it is difficult and almost impossible to dissent from Government's / Authority's point of view, there is a feeling that Chinese posters are incapable of participating in a genuine debate.

Look at the posts most Chinese post here. They are almost every time some a tall claim, or achievement which may or may not be true. But never does any Chinese poster posts anything incremental towards it's own system. Do you think it is the right way. There are no problems that you have against your politicians, local party representative, your judiciary or your police?

Hence most Brfites take the line that they do. Since you can only take one line anything to the contrary is offensive to you. This is where individualism comes into play. Even though you yourself may have doubts in your intellectual capacity you cannot publicly accept them. It's frustrating and hence make you very sensitive to even the slightest dissent.

BRfites on the other hand almost always play to this one contradiction to the hilt. look at 'Zlin'. He almost always posts some tid bid, completely unrelated to interest or the topic here. What's the point? China is great, whether or not BR thinks so. Then where is need for trumpeting all this and the show off? Chinese posters try to rub it one us and when they get it back they complaint of being mocked.

I would really like you and other Chinese posters to participate in other forums. There is a new forum for Assembly elections, read it, share your views and indirectly you will understand democracy, without burning your hands. Do not limit yourself to Chinese thread and become an active contributing member and see how BR welcomes you, respects you and most importantly regard you as an INDIVIDUAL with intellect.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Jan 2012 12:51


sha
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 17 Jan 2012 13:03

Gus wrote:
heech wrote:snip


let me try to rephrase..

are you happy with what you have put in (exploited labor, tax payer money, lack of freedom etc) and what you got (GDP, infrastructure etc)?


I don't think heech mentioned GDP and infrastructure in the first place. He just said the young man/women is enslaved and have his/her life improved. It's a pragmatic point of view.

I guess Heech's points are:
1. The reality sucks, but let us roll with it;
2. Things may not be perfect, but they works.
3. China still has a long way to go, but things change for the better.

amit
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 17 Jan 2012 14:30

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^ Clealy, the dlones are taking lessons in salcasm now...LOL. And many many more need to be taken before they can pull one off smoothly. Miss the JYang type smooth operators. Nowadays CPC is allotting third-rate drop-out dlones to plopagandize BRF, seems like..."sigh".


But you gotta agree very creative only. I've become "Admit". I wonder if there's a Freudian slip hidden somewhere. And Theo has become "Theo_Fideld". :rotfl: :rotfl:

But I think we did touch a raw nerve somewhere, look, the drones are back in squadron strength after lying low for sometime.

Abh aiyga maza!

现在,我们将有一番情趣现在,我们将有一番情趣现在,我们将有一番情趣现在,我们将有一番情趣现在,我们将有一番情趣现在,我们将有一番情趣现在,我们将有一番情趣

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby PrasadZ » 17 Jan 2012 14:36

heech wrote:I've been on/off in BR for almost a decade. Not much has changed. There've been an awful lot of Indians gleefully pointing out that, indeed, China remains a poor nation. Perhaps this comes as a surprise to you... but this is painfully obvious to almost all Chinese: China remains a very poor nation... but thank the fortunes, the Chinese (individually and as a people) are a little less poor today than we were last year, much less than 5 years ago, and incredibly less so versus where we were 10 years ago.

The only posts I can find of yours, heech, that far back relate to Tibet, not to the economy of either China or India. Its good to hear you rah rah China; it would be more impressive if you could debate that rah rah with the likes of gus or sri, innit? If you have no wish to debate it, why post a rah rah about the chinese economy on a forum populated solely by indians dissing China?! :lol:
If the intention was to show there are patriotic chinese around who read BRF, well .. thanks :eek:

heech wrote:I, for one, am excited, gratified, thrilled by what China has achieved for her people over the last THREE decades... and for the sake of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of Chinese who remain impoverished, I only hope it continues for 5 more decades to come. That's probably how long it will take before people like you will run completely out of things to mock China for.

10 years back, heech, we were dissing China on its Tibet policy (wait .. we still do that :shock: ). As you suggest, we will be dissing China on its economic policy for the next 50 years. But, like you, I, too, hope that we will have no reason to do so in the 51st.


sha wrote:
Gus wrote:let me try to rephrase..

are you happy with what you have put in (exploited labor, tax payer money, lack of freedom etc) and what you got (GDP, infrastructure etc)?


I don't think heech mentioned GDP and infrastructure in the first place. He just said the young man/women is enslaved and have his/her life improved. It's a pragmatic point of view.

I guess Heech's points are:
1. The reality sucks, but let us roll with it;
2. Things may not be perfect, but they works.
3. China still has a long way to go, but things change for the better.


sha, thanks for point 1 ! Its a genuine surprise after 3 mind numbing posts by zlin to note even a minor admission that there could be problems in China from a Chinese poster.

Point 2 is, precisely, what we want to know and discuss ! IF they work, how does it do so and what are the pros/cons of replicating it? IF it doesnt, how do we avoid the pitfalls?

Coming back to Gus' question, of course, heech did not answer the question ! Gus noticed it, innit? Gus accepts that PRC has done well on the economic front and wants to know what public opinion is on the trade offs that were made for that growth to be achieved. In response, heech has made a speech proclaiming his allegiance and patriotism. Well, thanks and all that. But can we get back to answering the question now?

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 17 Jan 2012 17:26

PrasadZ,you're expect some one which would like to enlighten you guys and are willing to endure insult from you guys.

Good luck to you! Let's pray he/she will show up.

zlin
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 17 Jan 2012 17:35

Piers Morgan on Shanghai

PrasadZ
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby PrasadZ » 17 Jan 2012 18:41

sha wrote:PrasadZ,you're expect some one which would like to enlighten you guys and are willing to endure insult from you guys.

Good luck to you! Let's pray he/she will show up.


Gong xi fa cai, sha !! A little in advance. Thanks for answering :)
And if you lack entertainment, you are welcome to read up indians tearing into other indians on the rest of this forum. Its in the nature of this forum to criticise outsiders but i do wish you all the best in the year ahead. A generation of free spirited dragons will be born this year - something to think about ..


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