PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby paramu » 24 Jan 2012 01:57

pandyan wrote::mrgreen: Infact, I had asked the same question to TheChola...but never got a response.

That sounds like an eternal Pandya-Chola wars.. Sorry for the OT.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Tanaji » 24 Jan 2012 01:58

heech wrote:LOL, "everyone on this forum has been to Pandaland". I'd love to see a poll on that! I am currently posting from the US... but I, at least, just flew here from Shenzhen last weekend. I definitely can access forums.BR without any difficulty... I don't know if I've ever tried http://www.BR.

But more importantly, back on subject... Since everyone here is already intimately familiar with China and know all there is to know, then there's little for me to add. In that sense, not much has changed here over the last 10 years.


O Learned One, if that is true, why are you wasting your time on this forum and gracing us with your august, well travelled, Shenzen-returned presence? Why not let us third worlders wallow in our own ignorance. Perhaps your time is best utilized in the US?

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby heech » 24 Jan 2012 03:42

Tanaji wrote:O Learned One, if that is true, why are you wasting your time on this forum and gracing us with your august, well travelled, Shenzen-returned presence? Why not let us third worlders wallow in our own ignorance. Perhaps your time is best utilized in the US?

Ah, and this is very typical for one of the threads on this forum. You didn't invite me, and as such you certainly can't dis-invite me from here. But I do suspect I have little to add for the foreseeable future, so I will perhaps follow your recommendations... I will inevitably check back in, perhaps in another 10 years or so. By then, we'll have a much better idea of how the great Chinese experiment in HSR and city-building has worked out.

In the mean time, best of luck to India and Indians. No sarcasm or irony in such a statement, just genuine best wishes for your continued growth and development.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby VikramS » 24 Jan 2012 04:06

Guys:
Can we go slow on genuine contributors like heech. There is no point in trying to prove a point (pun intended).

Whether BR or BR forums are banned in China is kind of irrelevant. According to some here, it is available off and on, so heech is probably correct. And whether HSRs permit standing room is something to learn from. The fact remains that speed by itself is not a problem, it is the acceleration or the decleration which can be. If that is smooth and properly managed, then people can stand without any problem; we all do it at 500 mph on airplanes.


For me the focus is to develop a more balanced picture about China. That is why I like chola's post a lot even though there are elements I disagree with. And if you are an investor, (which almost every one is to some extent), understanding what is happening in China can make a big difference.

So let us focus on to the point discussions, and keep H&D out of it.

Thank you for your time.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby shaardula » 24 Jan 2012 09:04

lets get a comedian to explain whats going on here on this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtbyVFLl_7U

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby shaardula » 24 Jan 2012 09:25

i dont believe we have been baiting the chinese on edu and research!!

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby svinayak » 24 Jan 2012 13:03

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

Why it’s China’s turn to worry about manufacturing
By Vivek Wadhwa, Published: January 10 | Updated: Wednesday, January 11, 5:00 AM

America has been extremely worried about the loss of manufacturing to China. Seduced by subsidies, cheap labor, lax regulations, and a rigged currency, American industry has made a beeline to China.

But the tide may soon turn.

Vivek Wadhwa

Vivek Wadhwa is vice president of Academics and Innovation at Singularity University and Arthur & Toni Rembe Rock Center for Corporate Governance at Stanford University. His other academic appointments include Harvard, Duke and Emory Universities as well as the University of California Berkeley.


Innovations in 3-D printing design: Autodesk is a leader in creating some of the most innovative and iconic designs using computer-aided design software. From 3-D printing to major motion pictures, the company is behind some of the media and manufacturing industry’s most eye-popping designs.
Gallery


New technologies will likely cause the same hollowing out of China’s manufacturing industry over the next two decades that the U.S experienced over the past twenty years. That’s right. America is destined to once again gain its supremacy in manufacturing, and it will soon be China’s turn to worry.

China’s largest hi-tech product manufacturer Taiwan-based Foxconn Technology Group, made waves last August when it announced plans to install one million robots within three years to do the work that its workers presently do. These robots will perform repetitive, mechanical tasks to produce the circuit boards that go in many of the world’s most popular consumer gadgets. But even these robots and circuit boards will soon be obsolete.

As my colleague Neil Jacobstein, who co-chairs the Artificial Intelligence (AI) and Robotics program at Singularity University explains, there are three exponentially accelerating technologies—artificial intelligence, robotics, and digital manufacturing—that will reshape the competitive landscape for manufacturing. Specifically, these technologies will make manufacturing more creative, less expensive, more local and more personal.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby abhischekcc » 24 Jan 2012 18:50

Can 3D printing replace assembly? Or can it print more than one kind of material? If not, then India, China, and others have nothing to fear from PR specialist Wadhwa.

-------------

There is a fundamental flaw in his logic. He assumes that these new technologies will remain confined to America. If these leak out (or bought out, or copied out), then the main problem of America - its high structural costs will keep America in the doldrums. Witness how China turned the tables in solar panels production.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 25 Jan 2012 10:47

shaardula wrote:i dont believe we have been baiting the chinese on edu and research!!

Open the door,let go of amit.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 25 Jan 2012 10:56

China's crude steel output up 8.9 pct in 2011

BEIJING, Jan. 22 (Xinhua) -- China's crude steel output increased 8.9 percent year-on-year to 683.27 million tonnes last year, 0.4 percentage points slower than the growth rate of 2010, according to the latest data provided by the country's top economic planner.

Last year's steel output helped China secure its title as the world's largest steel producer.

The National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) said in a statement on its website that the 2011 rolled steel production growth also slowed by 2.4 percentage points to 881.31 million tonnes, up 12.3 percent year-on-year.

The NDRC quoted customs data as saying China's imports of iron ore rose 10.9 percent year-on-year to 686.06 million tonnes last year, while exports of steel products amounted to 48.88 million tonnes, up 14.9 percent year-on-year.

Steel prices continued to decline in December 2011, with the steel price composite index falling to 120.95 points, down 1.44 points from November. The index wavered between 130.74 points and 136.04 points in the first three quarters of last year, according to the NDRC.

The NDRC's latest data showed the steel industry posted a combined profit of 295.2 billion yuan (46.75 billion U.S. dollars) in the first 11 months of 2011, up 29.9 percent year-on-year.


Steel output in 2011 hits new record
(Reuters) - Global crude steel production hit a new record in 2011, but the pace of growth fell sharply as a deepening sovereign debt crisis in the European Union and slowing economic growth in top consumer China dented demand.

After a very strong first half, steelmakers in China and worldwide were forced to reduce their production rate as a gloomier economic situation started to take its toll on demand for metal and steel.

China will continue to be the world's largest steel producer and will account for up to 70 percent of global steel production in 2012, up from about 45 percent in 2011, according to a Meps forecast.[b](???This is kind of unbelievable!)

Image

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby abhischekcc » 25 Jan 2012 12:44

Where is all this steel going?

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby krishnan » 25 Jan 2012 12:54

melted back and then again made into steel :?:

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby VikramS » 25 Jan 2012 13:16

http://www.economist.com/node/21543174

A very relevant portion of this article is the amount of value add in China. Just 2% of the cost of the iPad is the Chinese labor value add as most parts are made outside China. The 30% cost of materials will include some more Chinese manufactured components so that 2% number has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Chola: Could you please dig up some more info on other segments, please.

Image

But electrical machinery and equipment, with more complex cross-border supply chains, make up one-quarter of China’s exports to America. Pascal Lamy, the head of the World Trade Organisation, has suggested that if trade statistics reflected true domestic content, America’s deficit with China might be more than halved.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 25 Jan 2012 14:03

VikramS wrote:http://www.economist.com/node/21543174

A very relevant portion of this article is the amount of value add in China. Just 2% of the cost of the iPad is the Chinese labor value add as most parts are made outside China. The 30% cost of materials will include some more Chinese manufactured components so that 2% number has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Chola: Could you please dig up some more info on other segments, please.

Image

But electrical machinery and equipment, with more complex cross-border supply chains, make up one-quarter of China’s exports to America. Pascal Lamy, the head of the World Trade Organisation, has suggested that if trade statistics reflected true domestic content, America’s deficit with China might be more than halved.


Vikram,

I think one interesting data point in the chart is the value add of non-Chinese labor is 5. This is despite the fact that the Chinese have several orders of magnitude more people working on the product (entire assembly). On second thoughts, perhaps it is precisely because Chinese have so many workers working (per head/per capita cost breakdown) that its labor value add is 2 while its 5 outside (I would suspect a significant portion of that would be in places like South Korea). That is IMO interesting commentary on the actual productivity of Chinese workers.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 25 Jan 2012 14:05

Here's a breakdown of who make what in an iPhone:

1. South Korea's Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. (005930.KS: Quote, Profile, Research) makes the main processor as well as the flash memory chips that store music, photos and other user data *

2. The processor is based on an architecture licensed from Britain's ARM Holdings Plc (ARM.L: Quote, Profile, Research) #

3. Germany's Infineon Technologies (IFXGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) supplies the phone's transceiver and baseband processor #

4. Britain's Wolfson Microelectronics Plc (WLF.L: Quote, Profile, Research) makes the audio processing chip. Wolfson already supplies audio chips for Apple's popular iPods *

5. U.S.-based Marvell Technology Group Ltd. (MRVL.O: Quote, Profile, Research) makes the Wi-Fi chip that allows the iPhone to connect to the Internet wirelessly *

6. Skyworks Solutions Inc. (SWKS.O: Quote, Profile, Research) supplies the cellular network power amplifier *

7. Britain's CSR Plc (CSR.L: Quote, Profile, Research) makes the Bluetooth chip that supports wireless accessories such as microphones *

8. Linear Technology Corp. (LLTC.O: Quote, Profile, Research) supplies the USB battery charger, a part that is also used in iPods #

9. Broadcom Corp. (BRCM.O: Quote, Profile, Research), privately held NXP Semiconductors and National Semiconductor Inc. (NSM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) make components to support the touch screen #

10. Micron Technology Inc. (MU.N: Quote, Profile, Research) makes the 2-megapixel image sensor for the iPhone's camera #

11.Other components were supplied by Texas Instruments Inc. (TXN.N: Quote, Profile, Research), Europe's STMicroelectronics (STM.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), Silicon Storage Technology Inc. (SSTI.O: Quote, Profile, Research) and RF Microdevices Inc. (RFMD.O: Quote, Profile, Research) #

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 25 Jan 2012 14:14

Samsung contributes 25 per cent of the materials that go into the iPhone4

Image


Image

Please note the second chart. Foxconn's manufacturing in Shenzhen accounts for just 7 per cent of the US$178 manufacturing cost.
Last edited by amit on 25 Jan 2012 14:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Singha » 25 Jan 2012 14:56

I dont think its a question of labour productivity..its just that modern consumer goods (esp electronic ones like ipad and iphone) have most of the cost locked up inside their motherboards and chips and software which are made automatically by machines or by developers at apple and elsewhere.

the chinese labour cost captured is the cost of paying people to assemble all these, bolt them together, do some testing, cleaning and finally packaging.

the machines to build motherboards and chips are again mostly not intellectually owned by chinese cos - the koreans, germans, usa, taiwanese, japanese are powerhouses in factory automation and semi products.

if you take the airbus assembly in tianjin, the key high value items like FCS, avionics, engines, tyres, interior fittings are probably sourced from airbus supply chain in EU/US while some body parts and panels might be made locally.

when you shift to less complex products like mixer grinders, water heaters, desk telephones, AC the cost structure shifts away from sw and hw electronics to products in which china has a good lock like motors, wires, plastic mouldings, electrical control panels, metalwork....here both the labour cost and value of parts down the food chain are starting and ending in china mostly.

finally in the simplest products like fans, shoes, toys, plastic buckets there is even less technology needed and china which used to own the farm is losing out to cheaper places like vietnam or cambodia. in textiles the japanese and koreans have setup SEZs in bangladesh and employ lakhs of people. even india and sri lanka are having a rough time competing with bangladesh, which moreover benefits from EU quotas a least developed country.

ultimately just having even all the parts suppliers like stm, brcm, ti, ARM etc is great but not enough. you need big cos who will support and develop their suppliers and sell finished products like hp, ibm, netz, nokia, apple....without such cos who drive the product transitions the parts suppliers have no market and no incentive to keep moving. this is where america is a superpower. HP might source its RAM from korea and power supply from china but none there can take on HP.

its in some areas like cellphones, thinkpads, some consumer electronics/electricals(haier) and telecom gear (huawei, zte), merchant ships that china has cos that have become global brands and top of the food chain type maker of complete products and solutions. each has a pyramid of 100s of local suppliers behind it.

they hope in due course to develop globally marketed products in chipsets, aircraft, cars, aero engines , higher value electronics for premium prices, fashion products , software for home and business, .... all the thick layer of cream that usa/eu/japan feasts on right now.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 25 Jan 2012 15:09

Singha wrote:its just that modern consumer goods (esp electronic ones like ipad and iphone) have most of the cost locked up inside their motherboards and chips and software which are made automatically by machines or by developers at apple and elsewhere.


You are right. Which is why IMO it's significant that non Chinese labor contributes 5 per cent, considering the fact that the entire assembly is done in Foxconn's Shenzhen factory.

IMO that means:

1) Non Chinese labor (that goes into the phone) is higher value add.

2) They are paid more.

No 2 is the reason for the famous "China price" that seduces US cos. The question is how long can China maintain the "China price"? I'm sure they can'd do so indefinitely. It will be interesting to watch if they can go up the value chain before social pressures force them to abandon the "China price".

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Abhijeet » 26 Jan 2012 03:05

Once the infrastructure to integrate into the global supply chain is in place -- which it is in China -- the only reason they wouldn't be able to maintain their low labor costs is when the entire workforce has moved above that price point. Otherwise, there would always be other people from the countryside waiting to fill the shoes of anyone who thought Foxconn or other manufacturers were underpaying them.

Foxconn salaries, which seem to be around Rs.10,000 per month from what I've read, are good salaries for hundreds of millions of people in India. If everyone moves above that salary price point, it would be a great problem to have for China.

Meanwhile, the excellent infrastructure, strong work ethic and the experience of producing thousands of product types at international levels of quality would be theirs to keep -- those people will simply move on to something else. Not a bad bargain for abandoning the "China price" at all.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 26 Jan 2012 07:58

abhischekcc wrote:Where is all this steel going?

:idea: let's see where all this steel goes:
1) infrastructures. China is having the most and largest like roads, railways, ports, subways and metro, bridges, dams, transmission lines, and many many others.
2) houses and offices. China is having the most and largest too, just look cities like Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Chongqing, and many many others.
3) manufacturings. China is having the most and largest too, like machine tools, turbine, power generators, and many many others.
4) transportation. China is having the most and largest too, like motor vehicles, ships, trains, bikes, bicycle, tractors, and many many others.
5) homes. China is having the most and largest too, like fridges, ranges, washing machines, and many many others.
and you can name many more like weapons.

However, China is still lagging developed nations in steel per capita. So China still has a lot of space to grow in coming decade.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 26 Jan 2012 08:53

Abhijeet wrote:Once the infrastructure to integrate into the global supply chain is in place -- which it is in China -- the only reason they wouldn't be able to maintain their low labor costs is when the entire workforce has moved above that price point. Otherwise, there would always be other people from the countryside waiting to fill the shoes of anyone who thought Foxconn or other manufacturers were underpaying them.

Foxconn salaries, which seem to be around Rs.10,000 per month from what I've read, are good salaries for hundreds of millions of people in India. If everyone moves above that salary price point, it would be a great problem to have for China.

Meanwhile, the excellent infrastructure, strong work ethic and the experience of producing thousands of product types at international levels of quality would be theirs to keep -- those people will simply move on to something else. Not a bad bargain for abandoning the "China price" at all.


Agree with your points.

However, when I used the "China price" quote I did not mean it in a derogatory sense. Many Chinese posters here and some Indian ones too think that the average Chinese worker is more disciplined and productive than the average Indian worker and yet are cheap.

IMO that's a misconception. The output (that is cheap labor output) is the result of the working conditions that prevail in China and that is something that would be impossible to replicate in India, even if we manage to build up comparable infrastructure.

Foxconn's Shenzhen factories are one of the better employers in China and the average worker does get around 10,000 rupees a month. However, the working conditions there - please refer to the link I posted earlier - is something that no company would be able to replicate in India even they were prepared to pay 15,000 rupees or more.

Furthermore, again just taking the Foxconn example, I'm not too sure how much "transferable" skill the workers pick up. Again according to the article I posted, most of Foxconn workers who make iPads and iPhones have never seen any one of them in their life. They are good at repetitive jobs, which in most other places would be done by robots (and thus would be costlier). Can they transfer these skills to other industries? Maybe, but IMO very unlikely.

China has, however, done well in segments which are further up the value chain, the fact that they have copycat versions of the iPhone and iPad (have you heard about the RedPad?) shows that they can indeed pick up the skills when and where needed.

What, however, is still lacking is cutting edge innovation. Chinese companies are producing a lot of high tech stuff at unbelievably cheap rates - think Huawei and ZTE - however, they are copies of stuff already made/done by the likes of Cisco and others. Where's the brand new cutting edge stuff that comes from top notch innovation?

There are many things that are indeed admirable in what China has done/achieved. However, most of it has been done in an extremely profligate manner. They are probably the world's most inefficient users of capital. That they have been able to achieve this much even with such wastage, is testament to the authoritarian system that prevails in China which takes people's savings and invests in wasteful projects which would never see a ROI.

A case in point is the HSR. The idea of 10,000 KM of rail lines connecting manufacturing hubs is indeed a noble one. However, I wonder does every one of these connections (rail lines) need to be HSR? Wouldn't normal rail routes where modern trains could travel at 100-150km an hour not suffice? Such a rail route could be built at one tenth the cost.

All over the world, Govts (like in Spain and the US for eg) have toyed with the idea of building largescale HSR lines. However, soon everybody realised that the economics of the project don't justify it - at least at the current technology levels. And so most of these projects have been abandoned.

China has a lot of very smart people. Yet despite that the HSR march goes on. The only reason I can think this is so is because of the hubris of the CCP bosses and due to the unique opportunity for corruption that it gives to party bosses.

Unlike Chola and others I do not think China can go on spending without a care in the world about RoI. The chickens will come home to roost sooner than later. Heck if countries could do that and get away with it then the US, with its global reserve currency which they can print anytime, wouldn't have been in trouble. Due to its authoritarian dictatorship, China can probably hang on for a bit longer, however...

Bottomline, the lesson for India is IMO, infrastructure is a must, being part of global supply chains is a must (and for that elements like good ports, efficient Customs rules etc are a must) and lost cost manufacturing base for blue collar jobs is also a must (and for that reforms to labor laws). However, India would need to chart out its own path on how it would set up these elements. As a country, government and society we cannot follow the Chinese way.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 26 Jan 2012 12:07

Some facts:
1:The average income of workers in Foxconn@Shenzhen is 3000¥/M(24000R/M).
2:The official minimum wage in Shenzhen is 1500¥/M(12000R/M).
3:Shenzhen's GDP per capita was about 16000$ in 2011. Foxconn is neither devil nor angle.
4: Foxconn offers 10000R/M for India workers as post above mentioned;
Check amit's post above again after we got to know these facts. Interesting indeed.
BTW, as far as I know, Foxconn provides not only OEM but also ODM services.
Last edited by sha on 26 Jan 2012 15:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Singha » 26 Jan 2012 15:12

the non china labour N% is likely people who oversee machines making chips and boards in places like taiwan, usa or korea and the corning factory for gorilla glass wherever it is. they would definitely earn more than foxconn assembly line even doing same thing in china.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 26 Jan 2012 15:43

sha wrote:Some facts:
1:The average income of workers in Foxconn@Shenzhen is 3000¥/M(24000R/M).
2:The official minimum wage in Shenzhen is 1500¥/M(12000R/M).
3:Shenzhen's GDP per capita was about 16000$ in 2011. Foxconn is neither devil nor angle.
4: Foxconn offers 10000R/M for India workers as post above mentioned;
Check amit's post above again after we got to know these facts. Interesting indeed.
BTW, as far as I know, Foxconn provides not only OEM but also ODM services.


Sha,

The tone of your post (not substance) shows something that is fundamentally wrong on this thread IMO. And that is more often than not you Chinese posters do not understand what we're trying to say.

Let me try to be very simple:

Some of the stuff China has done is remarkable and in the process it has pulled more people out of poverty over the course of a couple of generations, than has been done in the entire of recorded human history.

However, the methods that has been adopted was/is possible due to IMO two major factors:

a) The Chinese tendency to follow authority.
b) The existence of a totalitarian government.

I know for (b) a lot of folks would argue that it's been good for China and what not. That itself is topic for another discussion.

However, the point that comes out from all this is that the China system will never work in a pluralistic and free society that is India, full of free thinkers who are not afraid to voice their opinions.

But will India not develop or become rich? Make no mistake it will certainly do so but at its own pace and in a way that the majority of Indians decide is desirable - which is why it is less clear than the linear path followed by China (investment-led). No amount of "mine's bigger than yours" comparisons is going to influence either the growth or the method.

Now the final point that you guys from China need to do is remember world history. For much of recorded history, India and China have been the world's richest countries and the fountainhead of new thoughts, ideas and inventions. It's only over the last 500-600 years that these two great nations fell by the wayside. We are now seeing natural balance being restored.

China is going back to it's rightful place via a totalitarian system, India is going to its place through pluralism and democracy. There's no doubt that the totalitarian system is the hare to India's tortoise. However, sometimes its useful to remember that parable.

And which system will produce a more longer lasting prosperity? Only time will tell. It's useful to remember that what takes generations to build can be destroyed in one generation.

As a result any hubris is misplaced.

PS: I suspect the China's top leadership understand that India's growth is inevitable just as China's is/has been. And since India is/will follow a dramatically different system to achieve the same thing that these dictators have done in China, they are so scared and they feed an anti-India propaganda to the Chinese population. Ties between the two nations go back thousands of years and throughout that time, it has been peaceful co-existence with sharing of ideas and knowledge. Why is it that only over the last 60 years that this has been replaced by belligerence? Don't you folks even stop for a moment to think about these things?

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby satya » 26 Jan 2012 16:58

sha wrote:
Some facts:
1:The average income of workers in Foxconn@Shenzhen is 3000¥/M(24000R/M).
2:The official minimum wage in Shenzhen is 1500¥/M(12000R/M).
3:Shenzhen's GDP per capita was about 16000$ in 2011. Foxconn is neither devil nor angle.
4: Foxconn offers 10000R/M for India workers as post above mentioned;
Check amit's post above again after we got to know these facts. Interesting indeed.
BTW, as far as I know, Foxconn provides not only OEM but also ODM services.



As per a simple google search ' forxconn salaries '' gave me this link on top most :

No Comment

Its a bit old dated 7th June 2010 is latest as per search engine Google but here's wht it says :


The company said it plans to increase pay to 2,000 yuan ($293) from 1,200 ($176) yuan, an increase of about 67 percent. This follows last week's 30 percent pay raise by the Taiwan-based company.
The new salary does come with a few conditions, according to Foxconn. Workers will have to pass a three-month performance evaluation before they can receive the raise. New employees will join the assembly line with a monthly wage of 1,200 yuan and must pass a three-month probationary period to receive the increase to 2,000 yuan a month.
Foxconn added that it will announce raises for line leaders and supervisors before August 1 and those for factory workers in other parts of China on July 1. With the new wages, the company said that many of its 800,000 workers in China could earn as much as $300 a month, about double their recent salaries


Its year & half old news so as per what Poster Sha says it meant that there's been a raise of 50% in just last 18 or so months at minimum :wink: secondly the above quote says ''many of its employees''will earn 300$ pm how many they didn't answer . :((
And above all it the company says '' it plans'' :rotfl: it was nothing more than PR exercise or election promises who says foreigners haven't learnt from Indian Democracy ! :rotfl:
Again following the glorious tradition of EuroNews section '' No Comment'' :| here as well .

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 26 Jan 2012 18:44

The wage for training period(6~9 months) is 1750¥/M. After confirmation the wage will be 2590¥/M. If overtime pay is put into account, a work can earn as much as 2800~3800¥/M.
On the other hand, according to Foxconn 2011 interim report average income of workers in mainland China is 2900$ for the first half of 2011. That was around 3000¥/M(24000R/M). As a matter of fact, workers in Shenzhen earned a little above the number.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Singha » 26 Jan 2012 20:34

a very long article today on worker issues in chinese manufacturing. foxconns strategy seems to be work people down to the bone, keep some good infra to impress foreign clients and labour rights visitors but make the actual terms of employment quite tough.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/busin ... ml?_r=1&hp

“I actually think Apple does one of the best jobs of any companies in our industry, and maybe in any industry, of understanding the working conditions in our supply chain,” said Mr. Jobs, who was Apple’s chief executive at the time and who died last October.

“I mean, you go to this place, and, it’s a factory, but, my gosh, I mean, they’ve got restaurants and movie theaters and hospitals and swimming pools, and I mean, for a factory, it’s a pretty nice factory.”

Others, including workers inside such plants, acknowledge the cafeterias and medical facilities, but insist conditions are punishing.

“We’re trying really hard to make things better,” said one former Apple executive. “But most people would still be really disturbed if they saw where their iPhone comes from.”

..................
Foxconn’s factory in Chengdu, Mr. Lai knew, was special. Inside, workers were building Apple’s latest, potentially greatest product: the iPad.

When Mr. Lai finally landed a job repairing machines at the plant, one of the first things he noticed were the almost blinding lights. Shifts ran 24 hours a day, and the factory was always bright. At any moment, there were thousands of workers standing on assembly lines or sitting in backless chairs, crouching next to large machinery, or jogging between loading bays. Some workers’ legs swelled so much they waddled. “It’s hard to stand all day,” said Zhao Sheng, a plant worker.

Banners on the walls warned the 120,000 employees: “Work hard on the job today or work hard to find a job tomorrow.” Apple’s supplier code of conduct dictates that, except in unusual circumstances, employees are not supposed to work more than 60 hours a week. But at Foxconn, some worked more, according to interviews, workers’ pay stubs and surveys by outside groups. Mr. Lai was soon spending 12 hours a day, six days a week inside the factory, according to his paychecks. Employees who arrived late were sometimes required to write confession letters and copy quotations. There were “continuous shifts,” when workers were told to work two stretches in a row, according to interviews.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 26 Jan 2012 21:47

Yes, they tried all these things in Chennai and had a small war on their hands almost instantly.

Despite these things Chinese workers are not the most productive in the world. They are somewhere in the middle of the pack. It is interesting that the Panda defenders here seem to think that these conditions are something they chose for themselves. They act like there is a democratic consensus that this is how they would like to live. Why not test it with a democratic system then? What are the overlords afraid of? One of the shocks is how little these drones know about what is being done to them.

The drones have still not taken on the fact that slow poke Indian Railway still transports more passengers than their big shiny HSR.

These jobs are definitely for the young and physically energetic. Especially women age 18-35. After that fingers are not nimble and eyesight is used up from squinting. I don't know if they are learning anything from the job at all other than how to stand all day and how to squint. God forbid you should get pregnant. You are apparently fired on the spot.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 44578.html

China Daily estimates that 600,000 people are killed this way every year, mostly making goods for us. Li had never experienced any health problems, his family says, until he started this work schedule; Foxconn say he died of asthma and his death had nothing to do with them. The night Li died, yet another Foxconn worker committed suicide – the tenth this year
.

Even if the number is half that at 300,000 workers killed every year working at some factory or the other, it still staggers ones mind. Think about that the next time you buy a Chinese stuffed toy. The carnage in blood it represents. I was reading this story about a high rise where 216 workers were killed building it. 3 per floor. On of the bodies fell down a maintenance shaft and the management kept building for 2 weeks without recovering the body. Wish the drones were more realistic in their notion of what this growth at any cost's real price is. They might be more cautious then.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 27 Jan 2012 02:18

You're barking up the wrong tree, guys. I'm the last man who would like to defend Foxconn for its management and payment of its employment. I just listed some facts to clarify some statements.

As far as Foxconn India is concerned, I get some information from the website:
1: 235 workers in Foxconn Chennai factory were poisoned in July 2010;
2:CITU union launched a strike to demand 10000R/M in September 2010, whereas Foxconn only offered 4800R/M for a regular worker with four year experience.
3:319 workers on strike were arrested by India police later.
In view of the facts above, I guess no one in India is willing to defend Foxconn India as well.

That happened more than a year ago. I'd appreciate it if Theo_Fidel shares first hand information how things are going on in Foxconn Chennai factory.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 27 Jan 2012 04:49

China’s copper imports hit record

China’s appetite for commodities remained resilient in December, with trade data showing copper imports hitting record levels and iron ore imports remaining strong.

For full-year 2011 China’s imports of crude oil and iron ore grew 6 per cent and 11 per cent respectively from the previous year, underlining strong demand and Chinese buyers’ desire to take advantage of price falls for some commodities.

China’s imports of copper in December hit a record high of 508,942 tonnes, up 47.7 per cent from the previous year, as the favourable arbitrage between copper prices in Shanghai and London encouraged Chinese buying.

China is the world’s biggest consumer of many commodities, including copper, coal and cotton, and the country’s monthly import data are closely watched for signals about demand trends.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 27 Jan 2012 04:52

China overtakes Japan as world's top coal importer
TOKYO, Jan 26 (Reuters) - China overtook Japan as the world's top coal importer for the first time in decades last year, partly driven by robust Chinese demand and as Japan's imports fell after steelmakers curbed output and a huge quake damaged some coal-fired power plants.

Japan had held the No.1 position since at least 1975 until 2010, the International Energy agency's Coal Information showed.

China, also the world's biggest coal producer and consumer, imported 182.4 million tonnes of the fuel in 2011, 10.8 percent higher than a year earlier, data from the country showed.


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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby zlin » 27 Jan 2012 05:07

Global Research Awards Showcase China’s Gains and Efforts to Retain Scientists
BEIJING — China’s government has thrown billions in recent years into building a top-notch research establishment, hoping to keep its best scientists working here and lure back those who are abroad.
Now comes a hint that that effort is beginning to pay off.

The Howard Hughes Medical Institute, one of the world’s most prestigious research foundations, announced Tuesday that it was honoring 28 biomedical researchers who studied in the United States and then returned to their home nations. Each will receive a five-year research grant of $650,000.

Seven — more than any other nation — are from China.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Singha » 27 Jan 2012 09:57

some of these giant plants where lakhs of people toil bring up visions of futurist sci-fi where countries are ruled by militaristic corporations. people are not allowed much dissent. in a way the CCP is a hybrid of political party, military and corporation with a truly unique and huge footprint!

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 27 Jan 2012 11:59

sha wrote:As far as Foxconn India is concerned, I get some information from the website:
1: 235 workers in Foxconn Chennai factory were poisoned in July 2010;
2:CITU union launched a strike to demand 10000R/M in September 2010, whereas Foxconn only offered 4800R/M for a regular worker with four year experience.
3:319 workers on strike were arrested by India police later.
In view of the facts above, I guess no one in India is willing to defend Foxconn India as well.


Sha,

I hope you understand the delicious irony that you just pointed out by putting up the Foxconn India example. Foxconn workers in both China and India are unhappy - maybe the company is a bad employer or maybe uber stylist and haughty companies like Apple employ the company because they suck the last drop from its workers - something the late Steve Jobs would have found distasteful to do on his own. Workers everywhere in the world want better working conditions, decent pay and a minimum amounts of rights.

Yet in the workers paradise, the Communist haven which Chinese folks here are forever telling us is governed by a set of enlightened leaders, the only "protest" that the workers can stage against Foxconn - to get them to raise wages - is by going on to the roof of the factory and jumping. However, in India, which is made fun of by you folks because it's so "inefficient and chaotic" workers go on strike and force the management to give better working conditions.

Ironic isn't it?

Bottomline: All this bullshit that the average Chinese, especially the poor, are very happy to work 12 hour shifts for six days a week, live in claustrophobic dorms and work with no medical compensation or any other rights is precise what it looks like that is: bullshit.

The poor Chinese workers do what they do because they have no options.

So, much as zlin and other posters try to show us the "shinny face" of China by putting up obscure data and rah rah youtube videos, the "grim, pain and unhappiness" just under the shinny layer is still visible.

The only conclusion I can offer you is concentrate on the many things the Chinese have done right and don't try the Shock and Awe tactics. Some folks here might get mesmerised but they'll be others who will point out the fallacies.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 27 Jan 2012 13:38

1: I do understand the irony in the Foxconn things. That's why I listed all the facts above. If someone else fails to understand it, please check posters of Theo_Fidel and you above with the facts I listed in mind.
2. It's bullshit indeed, I totally agree. What made things funny is that that's bullshit you made up and then set an attack on it. Maybe you have great fun barking at the moon. Sorry I have followed this thread for quite a while and never seen such claim.
3: As I said before it's very pathetic the Foxconn workers killed themselves. Foxconn should take its share of blame for it's anti-human-nature management, so should the CPC government and the Chinese society. The CPC set a bad record safeguarding the interests of peasant workers. Why did not they choose to protest? I heard the protests and strikes in China from now to then. To be frank the same question popped up in my mind when I read the news that the desperate India farmers killed themselves.
Last edited by sha on 27 Jan 2012 13:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby sha » 27 Jan 2012 13:40

Self deleted for duplicated poster

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby wrdos » 27 Jan 2012 14:15

amit-ji.

- NY Times, "Those Foxconn factory workers' working and living conditions are not acceptable".
- sha, "Their salary starts from 200$ and 450$ is something around the average".

Everything is true, the NY Times and our friend sha were both telling the truth. Sure the workers earn at least 200$ and by hard and overtime working, many if not most of them can make it to more than 450$ per month. By American standard and especially for the NY Times reporter, sure the salary and the living condition is not acceptable.

However, as a Chinese commenter, I am really surprised by the attitude of some of our Indian friends here. Pls remember, the Foxconn workers' social status are just at the lower end of urban Chinese society, maybe the lowest 20% or something in the city. They are immigrant workers without college education, teenagers or in their early twenties. And most of them are girls.

Here is India, not New York, Sir. Please open your door to walk around your city to see the real life of the lower 20% of the Indian urban society. To see what kind of jobs (if you can call it a job) those recent immigrants from countryside are doing on the streets or behind the streets.

Then tell us why India should refuse investment of Foxconn because their factory workers earns too low in China, by the American standard.

The problem is, China wants to become the next America/Japan, so the country is trying to repeat what America/Japan had done BEFORE they become rich. However, for my opinion, India is trying and want to repeat what the America is doing AFTER they become rich.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby vina » 27 Jan 2012 14:34

The problem is, China wants to become the next America/Japan, so the country is trying to repeat what America/Japan had done BEFORE they become rich. However, for my opinion, India is trying and want to repeat what the America is doing AFTER they become rich.


You dont GET the point here do you ? India has strong labor regulations, labor unions and this society will never accept FoxConn kind of thing in China. In fact, Foxconn in Brazil and India will be VERY different from Foxconn in China. Has to be or they cant operate here.

And no, trying to recreate a Dickcensian England (Oliver Twist anyone?) and all the grimness of it as a modern day excuse is not going to cut the mustard. People here will question whether a Foxconn kind of life is worth it at all and what purpose does such a thing serve. I am sure a Chinese would do so as well, but I am not sure if the system will allow them to express it.

It is extremly funny how it works here. In India, the Communist Party of India - Marxist (the pro china communists) run strong unions that prosecute industrial actions/strikes and demand and enforce those kind of laws, while the Chinese Communist Party supresses all kind of workers rights, denies an independent union to exist (remember a gent called Lech Walesa started one in a shipyard in Poland and that set the dominoes down across eastern Europe and brought down the edifice of communism there and in russia) all in the name of the "people".

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby amit » 27 Jan 2012 15:05

vina wrote:You dont GET the point here do you ? India has strong labor regulations, labor unions and this society will never accept FoxConn kind of thing in China. In fact, Foxconn in Brazil and India will be VERY different from Foxconn in China. Has to be or they cant operate here.



Agree 100 per cent with Vina. This is precisely the point I'm trying to hammer home to our Chinese friends.

wrdos wrote:However, as a Chinese commenter, I am really surprised by the attitude of some of our Indian friends here. Pls remember, the Foxconn workers' social status are just at the lower end of urban Chinese society, maybe the lowest 20% or something in the city. They are immigrant workers without college education, teenagers or in their early twenties. And most of them are girls.

Here is India, not New York, Sir. Please open your door to walk around your city to see the real life of the lower 20% of the Indian urban society. To see what kind of jobs (if you can call it a job) those recent immigrants from countryside are doing on the streets or behind the streets.


Sorry to say Wrdos but you don't get it at all. First of all what class of people do you think work at the Foxconn Chennai factory? Do you think they are IIT engineering graduates? India is poor in comparison to China but not as poor as you think. Even a guy who drives the famous Indian mode of transport, the autorickshaw (a three wheeler similar to the famous Tuk Tuks that you may be aware of) make far more money than the figures which Sha mentioned for unskilled/semi-skilled Foxconn India workers (average). And an autorickshaw driver is considered in the bottom 20 per cent of Indian urban society.

But yes a lot of people do a lot of menial jobs most of them are in the unorganised sector in India, nobody is denying this. Heck we don't even deny that we have beggars, they are in full view in our cities. It's not something we are proud of (the fact that so many Indians are poor). However we don't shunt them out of sight and out of mind.

While working conditions can be bad in the unorganised sector in India, surely its not your point that Foxconn is part of the Chinese unorganised sector (don't even know if such a sector exists). Foxconn is very much a part of the Chinese organised industrial landscape and they are one of the better paymasters for the low skill jobs sector in China (which by far is still the biggest employer in China).

One thing you can be certain: No Indian factory in the organised sector would or does treat its workers in the way Foxconn does in China.

That's not because Indian factory owners are good people (some are of course, as I'm sure many are in China). It's because the system in India does not/would not allow such trampling of workers rights.

As I said it's delicious irony that in the last bastions of Communism, workers' rights are trampled on with impunity by Capitalist "pigs" and in "poor, democratic and capitalist controlled" India, workers enjoy far more rights. And I bet given a chance that's what the "bottom 20 per cent" in China would want too.

This is something the party apparatchiks and the new elitist class in China does not comprehend IMO. And since no Foxconn or equivalent employee posts in BRF we keep on hearing this nonsense.

Ask yourself this question: Development at what cost? Better still ask this to the families of all those workers in Foxconn. Have you considered what the China as a society and country would look like by the time you guys finally get rich? Do you think there's a "Delete" button which you can press once you have achieved that and all negative effects of this effort to grow rich by any means (environmental, social, economic and geopolitical) can be deleted and China can act as if nothing happened?

Wish you luck on that! Meanwhile, India will plod along at its own pace, make countless course corrections which would be determined by the majority, make a few mistakes here and there. However, finally it will also grow rich and would be a country much more at peace with itself.

That's the fundamental difference, my friend.
Last edited by amit on 27 Jan 2012 15:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Postby Singha » 27 Jan 2012 15:10

the bottom 20% of chinese workers would be doing far more hazardous work like coal mining, recycling the waste of the industrial world by hand in semi-legal industries that take apart and melt the waste for use in other products, working in plants that produce cheap stuff for domestic and third world markets (like some of the cheaper toys we get here in india but would be rejected by G8 countries) etc etc.

foxconn with all its infra and dorms and MNC clients with their supervisory visits would be solidly in upper end of the manufacturing segment there in terms of workers lifestyle and pay.


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