Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 23 Jan 2012 15:23

Hmm..looking at the Su-25 pics on the net, the shape of the central canopy part doesn't match up (upside down?). Maybe it's not a frogfoot?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Jan 2012 15:23

Singha wrote:pix on web confirm its a frogfoot.

I'm fairly certain its a MiG-21F.

The canopy looks just about right and a radarscope is missing. Plus its there on the dash.

http://www.avsim.com/pages/0803/lomac_p ... ckpit2.jpg

MiG-21M

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jan 2012 15:37

rohit, check the canopy frame. it's surely a front seat cockpit, you can see the old HUD projector on right.

solved :
it does match the su-25 pics from net. the frame of mig-21 is slightly different.

it's in fact an image from this page (scroll down)
http://www.virtual-jabog32.de/index.php ... 22&lang=en

says su-25 cockpit.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Jan 2012 15:41

Rahul M wrote:rohit, check the canopy frame. it's surely a front seat cockpit, you can see the old HUD projector on right.

solved :
it does match the su-25 pics from net. the frame of mig-21 is slightly different.

it's in fact an image from this page (scroll down)
http://www.virtual-jabog32.de/index.php ... 22&lang=en

says su-25 cockpit.

Su-25 it is then.

Does anyone know what the little aircraft graphic thingy on the dash is? Cropped delta.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 23 Jan 2012 15:48

The closest match seems to be indeed the Su25KM (if this website is to be believed)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... u-25km.htm

-------
EDIT: Sorry, didn't see Rahul M's post before I hit the submit button.
EDIT-2: never mind. Answered my own Q. The Su-25 KM does have a central metallic strip on the cockpit canopy.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 23 Jan 2012 20:54

Folks: Picture on left in Broadsword is existing MKI cockpit.

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html#5

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Jan 2012 22:37

Aditya G wrote:Folks: Picture on left in Broadsword is existing MKI cockpit.

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html#5

He changed it now after several people pointed out the mistake in the comments.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jan 2012 23:05

this was the one he posted originally. http://www.virtual-jabog32-mirror1.de/d ... _id791.jpg

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 25 Jan 2012 03:39

IAF women pilots break altitude barrier.

Continuing with their sparkling achievements, IAF women pilots have now begun to go where no women has gone before. They are flying military cargo aircraft sorties to forbidding high-altitude forward areas like Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) and Leh.

"Since December, some women IAF pilots are flying sorties of AN-32 medium-lift aircraft to DBO, the highest advanced landing ground (makeshift airstrip) in the world at 16,500-feet, and IL-76 heavy-lift aircraft to Leh," said a senior officer.

These "women air warriors" have often beaten their male counterparts in military aviation skills to get where they have reached by the sheer dint of their hard work and "challenging attitudes". While women pilots are not yet allowed to fly fighter jets, they have been taking to the skies in helicopters and transport aircraft in IAF for over a decade now.

Of the around 950 women officers in IAF, around 70 are pilots. Take Squadron Leader Teji Uppal, who has created history by being the first woman pilot to land at DBO, which overlooks the strategic Karakoram Pass and only a few km away from the China-occupied Aksai Chin area.

Commissioned in December, 2002, after passing ahead of many of her male counterparts at the IAF Academy, Squadron Leader Uppal attained the "B-Green" category, which makes her "a totally independent captain to operate in the treacherous mountains of Himalayas" in a short span of six years.

"Though she was out of flying for almost two years to raise her family, she came right back to the thick of things when there was a requirement for forward area operations in northern Ladakh," said an officer.

"A member of the elite group of military aviators who have landed at the risky Vijaynagar and Mechuka ALGs in Arunachal Pradesh, she is also qualified to undertake independent dropping operations in the glacial regions of Ladakh," he added.

Then, there is Squadron Leader Veena Saharan, who is adept at flying the massive IL-76 `Gajraj' heavy-lift aircraft after initially serving two tenures with AN-32. "She was the first women pilot to land a military multi-engine aircraft like the IL-76 at the Leh airfield in December. Since then, she has been regularly undertaking independent air maintenance sorties in the northern sector, which is a unique feat," he added.

member_21708 · Post by **member_21708** » 25 Jan 2012 21:31

IAF airlifts 136 stranded people from snow-hit Kishtwar
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf- ... 70526.html

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 30 Jan 2012 12:45

$1-bn basic trainer deal stuck as IAF awaits nod
Indian Express

The US$ 1 billion deal to purchase a new fleet of basic trainer aircraft is stuck with the Air Force failing to get approval from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) to sign the contract despite making the choice more than eight months ago. The proposal to purchase 75 aircraft from Swiss manufacturer Pilatus was brought before the high-powered panel on January 4 but was returned after clarifications were sought during the meeting from the Air Force and defence ministry on certain aspects of the selection procedure. Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne had earlier this month said that the contract would be cleared at the “next” meeting of the CCS but the panel has met twice since and the deal is yet to get clearance. Sources said the Air Force has not yet been able to reply to the clarifications that were sought by the panel. The clarifications were sought after an official complaint was lodged by the South Korean government on the selection process of the contract, in which one of its defence companies, Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) also took part. The third contender was American firm Hawker-Beechcraft.

It has been alleged in a formal complaint that when the commercial proposals were opened, the costs pertaining to transfer of technology to maintain the entire fleet were not filled by Pilatus. These costs were also not counted towards selecting the lowest bidder in May, as is the norm in most defence deals. Transfer of Technology (Maintenance) costs pertain to the setting up of repair depots and maintenance lines for the aircraft that would involve Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). It is learnt that at least two sitting Members of Parliament, including one from the ruling Congress, have written to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh pointing out discrepancies in the selection procedure. The other letter has been sent by a Samajwadi Party MP. The letter by a Congress MP from Andhra is believed to have pointed out that the government would end up overspending public money on the deal as Pilatus would be in a position of advantage to negotiate any price it desires for the Maintenance Transfer of Technology from HAL. Efforts are now on to salvage the deal and get approvals from the CCS, given that the Air Force is in dire need of a new fleet of basic trainers. There is a sense of urgency given that the current fleet of HPT 32 basic trainers has been grounded since 2009 due to safety reasons.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Jan 2012 14:36

It is quite surprising how these politicians crawl out from there holes with objections and "interest of India" in their hearts the moment some defence deal is to go through. As they say, "ghar ka bhedi lanka dhaye"

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 30 Jan 2012 15:51

rohitvats wrote:It is quite surprising how these politicians crawl out from there holes with objections and "interest of India" in their hearts the moment some defence deal is to go through. As they say, "ghar ka bhedi lanka dhaye"

Bofors fallout? "Doodh ka jala, Chaanch bhi phook kar piya".

Unlikely all the other endless scams, corruptions etc that one stuck close to to the First Family.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 31 Jan 2012 00:07

rohitvats wrote:It is quite surprising how these politicians crawl out from there holes with objections and "interest of India" in their hearts the moment some defence deal is to go through. As they say, "ghar ka bhedi lanka dhaye"

Seems to me that if what they said about the ToT cost is true, then the deal actually shouldn't go ahead. The IAF selected the PC-7 on the basis of cost, and if ToT cost was not included in the Pilatus submission, then it is a big issue since they should have included it in their tender in the first place to get an idea as to what the actual cost of the deal would be- we could end up with a situation where they can ask for what they want and having no options, the IAF/MoD would cave in.

I wouldn't want the entire competition to be re-tendered, but the IAF should have been able to give clarifications if there was no issue to begin with. Pilatus should give the required quote for the ToT cost and then bids compared with KAI's. If lower, then they could go ahead and if not, the KT-1 isn't too bad either. After all, these aren't combat aircraft and the KT-1 is sufficiently modern for the IAF's needs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jan 2012 00:37

Interesting that MPs from AP frequently show up to put a spanner in defence acquisitions!

Recall Renuka Chowdhary and her role in getting the Denel contract cancelled.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 31 Jan 2012 04:23

ramana wrote:Interesting that MPs from AP frequently show up to put a spanner in defence acquisitions!
Recall Renuka Chowdhary and her role in getting the Denel contract cancelled.

Exactly what came to my mind when I read this... this time an SP MP has also jumped into the mix... all Lifafa!?!, the question is for whom?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 31 Jan 2012 05:51

Indian air chief on Malaysia visit to promote military ties

New Delhi : The Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, Monday left for Malaysia on a four-day visit for talks with military leaders there to boost defence ties between the two nations.

In Kaula Lampur, Browne will meet Malaysian Chief of Defence Force General Tan Sri Dato Sri Zulkifeli and Chief of royal Malaysian Air Force Gen Tan Sri Dato Sri Rodzali.

He will "discuss a wide range of bilateral issues on defence co-operation", a defence spokesperson said.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, during his October 2011 Kuala Lumpur visit, signed a framework agreement with his Malaysian counterpart Najeeb Razak on promoting military ties.

The two leaders agreed to do that through regular exchanges of defence ministers and military officials.

IAF pilots and technicians have in the past trained Malaysian pilots, weapon system operators and maintenance staff in their newly acquired Sukhoi Su-30 MKM fighter aircraft.

They also helped them set up a systems school for the Su-30 MKM at Gong Kedak Air Base.

The air chief will be visiting Gong Kedak and Subang Airbases to hold talks on issues including professional exchanges, Su-30 training, courses, maintenance and logistic issues, the spokesperson said.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 31 Jan 2012 12:43

IAF trainer crashes near Tambaram, pilots safe

A trainer aircraft of the Indian Air Force crashed this morning near Urapakkam on the outskirts of the city this morning. The two pilots ejected to safety and have been taken to a nearby hospital.

The aircraft, a Kiran MK II from the IAF station at Tambaram was returning to base after a routine flight when in developed a technical snag. It then plunged into the Ayyanchery lake. The pilots were rescued from roof of a house in the adjoining VPK Nagar.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Feb 2012 10:27

How are the maintaince staff distributed? Are they assigned to each squadron ar to each base?

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 01 Feb 2012 17:27

can someone shed light as to how many AJTs are required for IAF to maintain its supply of pilots.
Does trainer jets count in the sanctioned limit of squadrons? (asking as BAe Hawks can be used as light fighter )

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Feb 2012 17:32

^BAE Hawks we acquired are sans Radar. Using them against any air or ground threat is not worth the risk of the pilots life for the merger difference they can make.
(Learned from BRF)

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 02 Feb 2012 06:24

Why Does India Need An Aerospace Command? – Analysis
Eurasia Review

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Feb 2012 09:29

Boeing awarded approx $ 1.7 Billion for modification in IAF C-17 Globemaster contract

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2012 11:31

First Indian Air Force pilot to fly the MiG-25 fighter Aircraft

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Feb 2012 11:50

So what is the cost IAF is paying for C-17 Globe masters???

Initial Contract $4.1 Billion, Then Sep 27, 2011 $4.69 Billion, Now an additional $ 1.7 Billion. Is it $ 5.8 billion as mentioned as FMS sales to US Congress or $ 6.3 Billion.

Why is MMRCA debated/ delayed so much but this contract not under public scrutiny??

So we are paying $580 mil or $630 mil per C-17??

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Feb 2012 11:51

More on the C-17 contract for the IAF

Boeing confirms $1.78 billion contract with India for C-17s

Boeing has finalised a contract to sell 10 C-17 airlifters to the India Air Force, but a key decision looms for the future of the strategic airlifter.

The $1.78 billion contract awarded to Boeing on 2 February completes a three-year negotiation process, but it was not immediately clear if it was the full amount. During US President Barack Obama's visit to India in late 2010, the White House said the value of the 10 aircraft deal was $4.1 billion.

The C-17 is generally priced at around $250 million per aircraft, including four Pratt & Whitney F117 engines.

The US Air Force has stopped buying C-17s after ordering 223 aircraft, with the final 10 added by Congess in the fiscal 2010 budget and ordered only recently.
...

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Feb 2012 11:52

Aditya_V wrote:So what is the cost IAF is paying for C-17 Globe masters???

Initial Contract $4.1 Billion, Then Sep 27, 2011 $4.69 Billion, Now an additional $ 1.7 Billion. Is it $ 5.8 billion as mentioned as FMS sales to US Congress or $ 6.3 Billion.

Why is MMRCA debated/ delayed so much but this contract not under public scrutiny??

So we are paying $580 mil or $630 mil per C-17??

There is a difference between fly-away costs and costs associated with setting up all the infrastructure for supporting an aircraft, training personnel, buying spare engines, other spares to support it initially, ground equipment for the aircraft and so on. The cost you're talking about is including all such things.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Feb 2012 12:18

Karthik, True, thats why MMRCA is valued at $20 B, including weapons etc. Fly away costs are just headline news.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Feb 2012 01:45

chiragAS wrote:can someone shed light as to how many AJTs are required for IAF to maintain its supply of pilots.
Does trainer jets count in the sanctioned limit of squadrons? (asking as BAe Hawks can be used as light fighter )

Here is the IAF's current/future plan for its training fleet:

Stage 1: 75 x Pilatus PC-7 Mk.II plus 100+ x HAL HTT-40
Stage 2: 200+ x IJT-36
Stage 3: 106 x Hawk Mk.132 [66 (first order) + 40 (second order)] plus 21 (SKAT replacement)

Trainers and transport planes are not part of the sanctioned combat squadrons. In a wartime (especially full-blown two front scenairo), all assets will be put in a wartime mode and may be called upon to do combat sorties. For example, An-32 dropping 10 x 1000lb bombs, or Hawk providing limited ground attack support or flying CAP over secondary cities or VP/VA.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 04 Feb 2012 04:41

Aditya_V wrote:So what is the cost IAF is paying for C-17 Globe masters???

Initial Contract $4.1 Billion, Then Sep 27, 2011 $4.69 Billion, Now an additional $ 1.7 Billion. Is it $ 5.8 billion as mentioned as FMS sales to US Congress or $ 6.3 Billion.

Why is MMRCA debated/ delayed so much but this contract not under public scrutiny??

So we are paying $580 mil or $630 mil per C-17??

I think its $4.1 bn - the cost to India. Now the US DoD is contracting the portions from the FMS sale to individual contractors. Remember the DoD procures the aircraft on USAF rates for the buyer country and then validates the equipment itself and finally sends it out to that country. The DoD charges 3% for this service.

JMTC.

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 04 Feb 2012 05:24

I think the 1.78 Billion is for 10 C-17s without engines or spares, or training or support. Engines, spare parts, training, support with be the subject of separate contracts.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Feb 2012 07:04

Mayday, mayday! S. Krishnaswamy (Former Chief of IAF)

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Feb 2012 08:33

abhishek_sharma wrote:Mayday, mayday! S. Krishnaswamy (Former Chief of IAF)

Boy! Is he scathing on the LCA effort or what?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 04 Feb 2012 10:36

I would say he is scathing towards the management of the LCA project and the LCA itself.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Feb 2012 13:32

Govt to buy Russian choppers for BSF

In the light of the crashes of Dhruv helicopters operated by the Border Security force (BSF), the Ministry of Home Affairs is purchasing six MI-17 cargo choppers from Russia.

“The government will also acquire more fixed-wing aircrafts for para-military forces,” sources told Deccan Herald.

Union Home Minister P Chidambaram said this week that indigenous Dhruv fleet has been grounded after repeat accidents.

The Ministry of Defence which is acquiring 59 MI-17 helicopters will help it out in buying the choppers, according to home ministry officials.

Chidambaram said he had authorised wet leasing of some helicopters and was also looking for buying some more choppers for the security forces.

Besides choppers, MHA is also to acquire more fixed-wing craft for para-military forces in border management and dealing with Left-wing extremism in different parts of the country.

The additional aircraft ordered are Embraer EMB 135 (Brazil make-VIP transport) and Beechcraft Super King Air (US make-turbo prop aircraft) and Hawker Siddeley (UK-turbo prop aircraft). BSF largely operates most of these aircraft.

The Indo-Tibetan Border Police has asked for Udhyog helicopters and Embraer transport air crafts, sources said.

The logistics for the expansion of the MHA’s air wing , including hangers and pilots training , are being put in place.

The expanded air-wing of the MHA will also have UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) to monitor Naxal-affected districts to detect mined roads.

Wow, a whole zoo of aircrafts are being raised by even the para-mils now. EMB-135, Mi-17s, Dhruv's, Beechcrafts etc.

What is a Udhyog helicopter which is mentioned as what ITBP has asked for?

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Feb 2012 13:33

IAF plans separate UAV cadre

In what would be a significant move once it comes through, the IAF is already in talks to have a separate cadre for the RPVs and is in the process of drafting a proposal to be sent to the Centre.

“Just like the fighter pilots, transport pilots and so on, this will be a role-specific cadre, so that the officers are trained for a specific role from the word go,” a senior official said.
The IAF, which already uses UAVs, is in the process of multiplying the forces. And DRDO’s Rustom and Lakshya-II are also expected to be inducted into the IAF.

Air Marshal Dhiraj Kukreja, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Headquarters Training Command, Bangalore said: “...There are talks about sending a proposal for this. We currently discussing various options.”

Speaking to Deccan Herald over phone he said: “...It would be part of existing squadrons but said that the numbers might not to the same tune. Flying squadrons have about 12-15 aircraft.”

Indicating that the procurement/acquisition of the UAVs in the future will be based on very careful assement so as to balance between the manpower and the role of such vehicles, sources said that the number of UAVs however will not be as high as 12 or 15.
The IAF though, is already training its personnel for this specific role as the air force already has some UAVs in its fleet.

But Kukreja said: “At present we are diverting people who are medically incapable of being fighter piolts into this role but with the kind of advances the medical field is making, we will soon see the number of such people reduce. And that is where this proposal comes in handy.”

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Feb 2012 19:02

Looks like Gripen will get an order with full ToT - aim is for DRDO to speed up LCA Mk2

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Feb 2012 19:06

^^^ that makes no sense.

>> What is a Udhyog helicopter which is mentioned as what ITBP has asked for?

khadi gramudyog helicopters ?

sunnydee · Post by **sunnydee** » 04 Feb 2012 19:29

sum wrote:Govt to buy Russian choppers for BSF

In the light of the crashes of Dhruv helicopters operated by the Border Security force (BSF), the Ministry of Home Affairs is purchasing six MI-17 cargo choppers from Russia.

“The government will also acquire more fixed-wing aircrafts for para-military forces,” sources told Deccan Herald.

Union Home Minister P Chidambaram said this week that indigenous Dhruv fleet has been grounded after repeat accidents.

The Ministry of Defence which is acquiring 59 MI-17 helicopters will help it out in buying the choppers, according to home ministry officials.

Chidambaram said he had authorised wet leasing of some helicopters and was also looking for buying some more choppers for the security forces.

Besides choppers, MHA is also to acquire more fixed-wing craft for para-military forces in border management and dealing with Left-wing extremism in different parts of the country.

The additional aircraft ordered are Embraer EMB 135 (Brazil make-VIP transport) and Beechcraft Super King Air (US make-turbo prop aircraft) and Hawker Siddeley (UK-turbo prop aircraft). BSF largely operates most of these aircraft.

The Indo-Tibetan Border Police has asked for Udhyog helicopters and Embraer transport air crafts, sources said.

The logistics for the expansion of the MHA’s air wing , including hangers and pilots training , are being put in place.

The expanded air-wing of the MHA will also have UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) to monitor Naxal-affected districts to detect mined roads.

Why would the MHA require turbo props like beechcraft etc. VIP transport to places where there are no major runaways can be conducted using MI 17's. If required should increse the hepter order . Secondly i am not comfortable with the way this article is written. It could imply that the cause for this order is the dhruv crash and the MHA has lost confidence in that type even before investigations are over.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Feb 2012 19:32

Talks have taken place. Looks like India may buy lets say 60 or 70 or so Gripens with Full ToT (dont know how they will get it considering US tech involved). Then use the ToT products etc for speed up of LCA Mk2 development. LCA Mk2 wont be deployed until 2022. I think they want a more capable 'low' a/c that is desi.

Now, what the Gripen offers that tech on Rafale wont offer and cant be used on Mk2 - I dont know, I'll let the experts do the thinking. But the source is good.

My initial thoughts were that India would go Mig35 for the second order for strategic reasons but looks like it might be the Gripen.