Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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srai
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby srai » 16 Apr 2012 03:09

IAF Shortlists Five Aircraft Manufacturers for Avro Replacement Programme New Delhi
Posted on: November 04, 2011

The Indian Air Force has shortlisted five foreign transport aircraft in the weight-class of six to eight tonnes to replace its fleet of Avro aircraft under a three billion dollar project to induct 60 new planes.

"We have shortlisted five existing aircraft to replace the Avro. This includes the Russian, Ukrainian and European companies who are producing transport planes in this class," highly-placed IAF sources told Defencenow.com.

The companies in the fray include Russian Ilyushin, Ukrainian Antonov, European EADS Casa C-295 and Italian Alenia C-27J Spartan.

The vendor finally chosen by the IAF will be then asked to work with private industry consortium which is likely to be headed by the Tata Group.

As part of our efforts, we will now release a Request for Proposal (RFP) in the next few months after the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approval and then choose the lowest bidder for the unique project, they told defencenow.com.

As per IAF plans, the twin-engine aircraft is planned to have a six to eight tonne payload capacity, cruise speed of 800 kilometers per hour range of 2,500 kilometers to 2,700 kilometers and should be ready before the end of 12th Plan.

The IAF is keen to exploit the Indian private industry for the programme to replace aging Avro aircraft and has sought Defence Ministry's nod for the replacement.

As per the plan, the first 16 aircraft would be produced by the OEM and the remaining would be license-produced by the consortium of private Indian industries with the help of IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby merlin » 16 Apr 2012 12:24

Very good news on the Avro replacement if they can stick to timelines. Giving a chance for Indian private industry to get a headstart on manufacturing transport aircrafts augurs well for a HAL competitor. This is the need of the hour - having a competent competitor for HAL means more options for IAF and GoI.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby merlin » 16 Apr 2012 12:25

srai wrote:Transport Fleet of the Indian Air Force
By Air Marshal BK Pandey
Issue: Vol. 27.2 Apr-Jun 2012 | Date: 15 April, 2012

...
Indo-Russian MTA Project

The fleet of 100 odd AN32 aircraft with the IAF is currently undergoing mid-life upgrade after which it would be available for another ten to 15 years albeit in progressively dwindling strength. With the intent to have a replacement available in good time, the HAL entered into a joint venture with United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and Rosoboronexport of Russia to co-develop, co-produce a 15 to 20 tonne payload capacity twin-engine military transport aircraft designated as the Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA). This aircraft will meet with the requirements of both the IAF and the Russian Air Force. Indications are that the IAF plans to induct 45 of these machines.

Given its payload capability, like the C130J, the MTA would be capable of both tactical and strategic roles. However, with three to four times the payload capability of the AN32, the MTA is bordering the strategic and hence cannot truly be regarded as a qualitative replacement of the former. Strangely enough, the deal appears to have run into trouble as the proposed business model received from UAC does not seem to have any significant developmental or R&D role for HAL. Participation by HAL is apparently limited to providing its share of funding and licence manufacture. It is not surprising that the Indian government has rejected the proposed business model received from the UAC. While information on further steps in the matter is awaited, this development has undoubtedly introduced a degree of uncertainty in the project. In the event of the MTA project being abandoned, the IAF will have to opt for alternatives in the western markets. HAL would do well to expand its collaborative horizons to include Brazil and South Africa.


Singha's idea of collaboration with Embraer finds an echo here :twisted:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sum » 16 Apr 2012 14:47

^^ Livefist reporting that HAL has forced Pilatus to reduce its bid cost after HAL studies found Pilatus overcharging on every item and offering lesser ToT in final bid compared to what was promised earlier.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Karan M » 16 Apr 2012 21:27

I wonder where all the Russia rakshaks who were busy attacking the choice of the C-17 and routinely run down indian institutions while praising Russia are going to say now?

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/mili ... Force.html

Air Marshal BK Pandey

The four-engine C17, which can lift 75 tonnes, will replace the ageing fleet of IL76 aircraft in service for over two and a half decades and would be due for retirement within the next decade. At present, the IL76 fleet of the IAF is plagued with maintenance difficulties to some extent due to unsatisfactory product support from the OEM. Of the total of 17 acquired, only a few remain airworthy today.
....

and...history repeats...T-90 deal anyone...cough...cough...!!

Given its payload capability, like the C130J, the MTA would be capable of both tactical and strategic roles. However, with three to four times the payload capability of the AN32, the MTA is bordering the strategic and hence cannot truly be regarded as a qualitative replacement of the former. Strangely enough, the deal appears to have run into trouble as the proposed business model received from UAC does not seem to have any significant developmental or R&D role for HAL. Participation by HAL is apparently limited to providing its share of funding and licence manufacture. It is not surprising that the Indian government has rejected the proposed business model received from the UAC. While information on further steps in the matter is awaited, this development has undoubtedly introduced a degree of uncertainty in the project.


...basically take Indian money and make hay.

Point is India has to look out for its own interests, first and foremost, now and forever. Fascination for some particular vendors wares while running down India and Indian institutions will not protect Indian interests.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Cybaru » 16 Apr 2012 21:33

Really get the MTA rolling with Brazil. Get them to restart the efforts and redo it with slightly larger payload.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 16 Apr 2012 22:23

fuselage and wing hardpoints for missile carrier role, provision for additional power generators to run radar/avionics racks & EW in C3I/jammer/bomber role...., plumbing to add ER fuel tanks in pallet style system....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Cybaru » 16 Apr 2012 22:57

^^

Yep!

And add old decommisioned Air India Airbus/Boeing in refueler role. They can soilder on for these duties for another 15-20 odd years. I don't see the IAF flying these 60 hours a week, unless during crunch time. Most have enough life to serve for 10-20 years after refurbishing.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 17 Apr 2012 04:41

...basically take Indian money and make hay.


Seems even the FGFA is somewhere on that tangent. Not as bad, but has inklings of it.

My feel is that India-Sukhoi has a standing, Indo-Russia. Dunno. They can part with nuclear sub technologies and a sub itself, but a small cargo plane?

Whatever happened to the HJT?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sum » 17 Apr 2012 08:18

Ok, which of you BRF-ites is this person featured here?

Models of patience

Ashish A Velankar belongs to a rare breed of people who collects models of aircraft.

Ashish buys mini-aircraft kits and assembles them piece by piece. His fleet has everything from European and American jet fighters to Russian-origin fighter aircraft and World War II fighter aircraft. It takes him a good one month to assemble an aircraft. And although it is a time-consuming process, Ashish confesses that the joy and satisfaction he gets after he completes assembling an aircraft is unparalleled.

Metrolife caught up with the enthusiast to understand his passion for aircraft and how he keeps it alive. Ashish’s fascination for aircraft, especially fighter planes, began in high school after he was gifted an aircraft kit. He would take time to understand the history and purpose of the aircraft before venturing out to make it.

Now, 10 years later, he says that his hobby has further enriched his knowledge about aircraft. All the models are 1:48 and 1:72 scale, which is 48 times smaller than the real one. “Each model kit consists of 150 to 200 parts connected to plastic spruces. All the parts need to be carefully cut, filed and then glued with a special cement. After part assembling is complete, the model is painted with special matt colours as per the airforce markings. These colours are not bright and are made to appear dull,” explains Ashish.

However, he confides that he seriously started pursuing his hobby only after he began earning.

“Each kit costs nothing less than Rs 3,000. I also pick up kits when I travel. There’s immense pleasure and excitement in spending hours together putting together an aircraft,” adds Ashish.

He points out that the bigger aircraft have complicated detailing that requires a lot of time compared to the smaller ones.

“This whole process is a good stress-buster for me. I spend two hours a day assembling the aircraft and it’s only at the end of a month or two that an aircraft is complete,” observes Ashish.

�Among his favourites are the MIG-21, that’s still used by the Indian Air Force. “These are typical interceptor aircraft �which performs air-to-air combats,” explains Ashish. He points to a ‘F-18 - Blue Angels Hornet’ of the US Navy. “They use this plane to perform aerobatics in mid-air and during shows in their country,” he says.

Among Ashish’s collection is the ‘F-5 Freedom Fighter’, used by the Royal Iranian Air Force; ‘F-14 - Tomcat’, ‘F-15 - Eagle’ of the US Air Force, ‘F-22 - Raptor’, ‘F-111 - Aardvark’ — all American-origin jet fighters. The European origin jet fighters include ‘Euro Fighter Typhoon’, ‘Mirage F1’, ‘Mirage 3c’ and ‘Harrier GR3’ to mention a few. World War II fighters include the ‘Supermarine Spitfire’ and ‘Hawker Typhoon.’


Ashish also has an enviable collection of books on Indian aviation. Ask him about any of the aircraft that he has made and he instantly reels out details about it. Impressive for someone who works 12 hours a day and still finds time to pursue his passion. Ashish works as the head of Telecom Solutioning in Tech Mahindra.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby SBajwa » 17 Apr 2012 20:03

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120417/main6.htm

IAF may use basic jet to train pilots
Shubhadeep Choudhury/TNS

Bangalore, April 16
From using jets in place of propeller-driven aircraft for training the beginners, IAF may do a role reversal and use a basic trainer aircraft for intermediate jet training of fighter pilots.

The Swiss Pilatus PC-7, the turboprop aircraft chosen by the IAF for replacing the grounded HPT-32 Deepak as a basic trainer, is yet to get clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), but IAF is hoping that the deal will be cleared by the CCS sooner rather than later.

A senior official at the IAF’s Training Command here told TNS that the Swiss aircraft, a basic trainer, would double up for stage 2 training of fighter pilots before they graduated to the advanced jet trainer (AJT) Hawk. However, if the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is able to deliver the intermediate jet trainer (IJT) ‘Sitara’ to the IAF in time, it will not be necessary to use the Pilatus for intermediate jet training of fighter pilots.

The IJT was supposed to get initial operation clearance by July 2011. But HAL failed to keep the deadline. An IJT prototype also crashed near Bangalore last year, resulting in further confusion about the probable date of induction of the IJT in the IAF trainer fleet. “Pilatus PC-7 may not be a jet but it has features which will help prepare the pilots for flying a fighter jet. Of course, the pilots will train in advanced jet trainer (AJT) Hawk before they are given to flying a full-fledged fighter aircraft,” the official said.

“We have no plans for purchasing intermediate jet trainers from abroad. If IJT is not ready before the Kiran aircraft are phased out of service, we will use the Pilatus to fill up the void left by the exit of the Kiran,” the IAF official said.

The plan is a tell-tale sign of the deficiencies of training aircraft being faced by the IAF and its fear that the problem may persist. Recently, IAF officials also told the parliamentary standing committee on defence that they had requirement of 181 basic trainer aircrafts, 85 intermediate jet trainers and 106 advanced jet trainers.

Since the grounding of the propeller-driven HPT-32 in 2009, the Kiran is being used by the IAF as a basic trainer. The two-seater Kiran, also built by the HAL, is a subsonic jet trainer. Kiran jets are used for basic training of all rookie pilots. The fighter pilots do their intermediate jet training also aboard Kiran jets and then graduate to the British Hawk.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby tejas » 17 Apr 2012 23:08

$1 billion for 75 propeller driven aircraft works out to $13.3 million per pop. Makes the T-90 rip off look cheap in comparison. :evil:


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 21 Apr 2012 11:56

Not sure if MOD press release was posted before

Upgradation of Mirage Aircraft

Contracts have been signed with M/s Thales, France and M/s Dassault Aviation, France, along with M/s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for upgrade of the Mirage 2000 aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF). A contract has also been signed with M/s MBDA, France, for procurement of air to air missiles for the Mirage 2000 aircraft.

The cost of the contract for upgrade of the Mirage 2000 with M/s Thales and M/s Dassault Aviation is Euro 1470 Million, while the cost of the contract with M/s HAL is Rs.2020 crore. The cost of the contract for procurement of the missiles from M/s MBDA, France, is Euro 958,980,822.44.

The entire upgradation of the Mirage aircraft is scheduled to be completed by 2021. Delivery of MICA missiles is scheduled between 2015 and 2019.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby mody » 21 Apr 2012 11:58

Any news on the IJT Sitara front? Wasn't the aircraft supposed to get IOC in 2012. There are no news with regards to Tests and status of the testing and progress of the program.

Given the current state of Trainer aircraft's with IAF, the early success of Sitara has become really important.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby mody » 21 Apr 2012 12:39

From the MOD report, the cost for upgrade of 50 Mirage fighters will be Rs. 14,170 crores approx. Plus the upgrade will be finished only by 2021.
Compare the figures with the total development cost of the LCA and then wonder about all the media reports which crib about cost overruns!!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sum » 21 Apr 2012 18:19

From Livefist:

The Indian Air Force has floated a brand new requirement to support the acquisition of nine aircraft for survey, target towing, COMJAM and Airborne SIGINT.

According to the request for information sent out to global vendors, "Seven aircraft should be suitably integrated by the OEM and certified for the survey, target Towing and COMJAM roles including dropping of flares, passenger and cargo roles. Two aircraft should be certified to perform the SIGINT role. The basic platform for all the nine aircraft is to be the same platform and is to comply with FAA/JAAR or equivalent standards. The role equipment and role performance is to comply with related Mil STD/ equivalent stipulations."

Israel's IAI has pitched the AISIS special mission aircraft to the IAF over the last few years. Companies likely to be looking at the requirement include Northrop-Grumman, Boeing, L-3 and Raytheon.

IAF is really beefing up on all fronts.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Apr 2012 03:08

mody wrote:From the MOD report, the cost for upgrade of 50 Mirage fighters will be Rs. 14,170 crores approx. Plus the upgrade will be finished only by 2021.
Compare the figures with the total development cost of the LCA and then wonder about all the media reports which crib about cost overruns!!!


The M2K upgrade is a bloody joke, and a poor one at that. With the induction of far more capable platforms such as the Rafale, MKI, Pakfa (and dare I say the LCA 2.0), paying such a ghastly amount for birds that will only provide a technology equivalent of say a Blk-50 F-16 is simply wasting tax payer $s. A minimal upgrade designed to keep the M2ks for another 10-15 years would have done nicely. The Israeli-HAL LUSH option was more appropriate imho.

The biggest problem with this program it seems is the fact that India has to invest heavily to get the infrastructure needed to keep the bird flying till 2030+ since no other country will have these birds at that time. Thankfully, at least it will have weapons commonality with the Rafale.

Frankly, I almost hope someone complains about this one and it is cancelled. Use the $s for a LUSH upgrade and getting extra Rafale or LCA.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby tejas » 22 Apr 2012 06:52

I don't almost hope this deal is cancelled, I would be overjoyed if it was. A colossal sum of money for a 40 year++ aircraft. If truly needed artillery can be stalled for 25 years, we need patriots to stall this deal for a few more years at which point it will die a natural and well deserved death.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 22 Apr 2012 06:56

tejas wrote: we need patriots to stall this deal for a few more years at which point it will die a natural and well deserved death.


I am sure all the other stalled deals are because of patriotism onlee.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 24 Apr 2012 11:26


Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 24 Apr 2012 12:10

we are trying to fill in the warfighting gaps that got exposed during NATO ops in libya. the euro part of NATO was found wanting in
- sigint and imint for intel on targets and damage assessment
- refuelers
- number of munitions
- UAVs

khan had to arrange for emergency help in these areas and US defence secy blasted the euros for spending so little on defence and hitching a free ride.

goes without saying to we need to rush sudarshan into production, procure more LDPs, arrange for more refuelers and get more high alt UAV .... even to reach 15% of khans strike and staying power in the ring is a immense and costly undertaking.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby AdityaM » 25 Apr 2012 08:24

Airforce numerical strengths

Japan has more planes then india!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 25 Apr 2012 09:01

have all of you youngish types seen the old video 'salt of the earth' by kunal verma and dipti bhalla?

has a jaw dropping head-on take off footage of our Mig25R....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Vipul » 25 Apr 2012 23:14

Link?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nachiket » 25 Apr 2012 23:31

Singha wrote:have all of you youngish types seen the old video 'salt of the earth' by kunal verma and dipti bhalla?

has a jaw dropping head-on take off footage of our Mig25R....

You can't mention something that juicy and not give a link... :(( :((

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_22906 » 26 Apr 2012 01:18

AdityaM wrote:Airforce numerical strengths

Japan has more planes then india!



Thanks. As per this report, it states that we have 7 tankers (thought we had 6) plus we have 10 Jags in the pipeline plus 17 IL-76 (IIRC there was this major debate happening abt their numbers)

Not sure how accurate this report is though

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 26 Apr 2012 03:23

plus 17 IL-76 (IIRC there was this major debate happening abt their numbers)


* How many are operational? The international tender requires that 70% be operational
* They all should be retired by the decades end (of course on BR there is disagreement on this, but that is from public info)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Yagnasri » 26 Apr 2012 10:49



Any one else using this in the world for mil purpose? I do not see anything about this item and use by US or Russians and suddenly it is offered for us.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 03 May 2012 14:34


Juggi G
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Juggi G » 03 May 2012 17:21

IAF Air Power At Exercise Shoorveer

Air Armada

Click Pic for the Larger Version
Image

Chak diyan gey Phatte

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nachiket » 04 May 2012 01:06

Is it possible to arrive at an approximate number of Mig-21s (all versions) that are still in active service in the IAF? We know the number of Bisons (125 minus a few crashes). But the numbers for the Bis and especially the M/MF series are hazy to say the least. The FLs I believe are all retired except for those in MOFTU.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby arun » 05 May 2012 11:51

X Posted.

The deal to acquire the Pilatus PC-7 Mk II lurches forward:

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
02-May-2012 14:15 IST

Delay in Trainer Aircraft Deal

The proposal for procurement of Basic Trainer Aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) is awaiting consideration of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). The proposal regarding the selection procedure of the Pilatus Trainer Aircraft has been progressed in accordance with the Defence Procurement Procedure. A representation submitted by M/s Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI), one of the bidders, has been found to be devoid of merit.

The Defence Procurement Procedure prescribes an indicative timeline for progressing procurement cases. All effort is made to adhere to these timelines. This information was given by Minister of Defence Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri PiyushGoyal in Rajya Sabha today.

PK/NN

PIB

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby arun » 06 May 2012 07:03

Hindustan Times reports that R&AW is set to acquire two Bombardier Global 5000 aircraft equipped with ELTA supplied multi-mission airborne reconnaissance and surveillance systems.

These aircraft are substitutes for R&AW’s Grumman Gulfstreams and are to be delivered in two years time:

After 20 years, R&AW upgrades to super spy jets

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 06 May 2012 09:25

I thought only the aborted naval variant of Dhruv had wheeled landing gear, but yesterday saw a wheeled one in yellow and green army camo flying near HAL. is it a VIP transport model or some other adaptation?

in Palam airport, as you proceed to gurgaon, some areas incl the end of runway which used to be visible a decade ago nicely, are now invisible behind huge earthen berms, but paradoxically the ARC area seems to be nook nood and clearly visible from a city bus. I could see dusty IL76 with engines in red covers inside a hanger and a smaller ac, plus a aeging 707 outside , parked near another IL76 that seemed to be in flying shape.

are the 707 still active....?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sum » 06 May 2012 09:31

^^ The 707 seems to be in the same position whenever i see it spread over months!! So not sure how active it is..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 06 May 2012 09:33

most certainly its dead...hence the new 9 plane sigint deal. that IL76 didnt look too active either. maybe thats why IAF is looking for a turnkey co in russia who can guarantee spares and uptime for our IL76 and the intent to get more and more C17 and C130J.

IL76 is a good plane, but Rus needs to bring IL476 with PS90A engines into full rate stable production before we dip our toe into the pond again.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby chetak » 06 May 2012 09:46

Singha wrote:I thought only the aborted naval variant of Dhruv had wheeled landing gear, but yesterday saw a wheeled one in yellow and green army camo flying near HAL. is it a VIP transport model or some other adaptation?



are the 707 still active....?


Some civil variants of the Dhruv are also offered with wheels.


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