Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jul 2012 20:00

doesnt HAL-Snecma work on the engines for the cheetah/chetak?

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 26 Jul 2012 20:46

Singha wrote:^

today I saw a signboard near ITPL whitefield saying HAL-Snecma. anyone know what it does?
there is also a BAE-HAL building on approach road of the old airport terminal...

singha, HAL has many JVs including SAMTEL too for some time now. Check This which will give you a clear pic.

wrt the snecma Check This too.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 26 Jul 2012 21:54

In 2005 Snecma and HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) teamed up to create an equally-owned joint venture in Bangalore, southern India, to produce pipes for aero-engines.

The plant includes 2,000 square meters of state-of-the-art machine shops, plus another 400 square meters of offices.

It deploys a wide range of manufacturing processes, including bending, flaring, orbital TIG welding, induction brazing, EDM drilling, X-ray and dye penetrant inspection and testing.

General Manager : Gil-Eric Fabre
Email : gil-eric.fabre@snecma-hal.com

Snecma HAL Aerospace Pvt Ltd
140/1, Hoody Whitefield Road
Whitefield Industrial Area
Bangalore 560066
India
Phone: + 91 80 4022 3000
Fax: +91 80 4022 3022

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jul 2012 22:10

why chetakh alone?, they shaktify even dhruv and alh.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jul 2012 07:35

Boeing must really respect these guys.

NO!

It has nothing to do with Boeing. Boeing is doing what the contract states.

It is the IN that has the respect - to include these players in the contract OVER the Western players.

Boeing could care less.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 27 Jul 2012 08:23

NRao, I was referring to Wikileaks which stated US arms vendors thought HAL was incapable of producing equipment for them and was at least 20-30 years behind in tech. As HAL seems to be building glorified toilet seats for Boeing, seems they are not far from the truth.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 27 Jul 2012 09:18

^^HAL making stuff for P-8 I understand but for F/A-18?

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 27 Jul 2012 09:30

The garbage HAL is building for the F-18 is doors and "wire harnesses" the latter could probably be built by two guys in their garage. It's an offset for other Boeing sales in India.

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 27 Jul 2012 10:02

HAL's garbage IFF system was chosen over the american super dupers by the navy and please show me one garage in any part of the world which can make the gun bay doors for F/A-18E/F.
Cheers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jul 2012 10:09

the IFF system is listed under BEL not HAL.

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 27 Jul 2012 10:16

IFF transponder for P-8I is designed and manufactured at HAL hyderabad. Please see that photo again and you'll find it
cheers

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 27 Jul 2012 10:39

Singhaji
BAE - HAL was formed as a JV for developing SW for export to BAE and also for HAL to pick up expertise SW related to aviation. I was there for the inaugaration decades(?) back and at that time to me it seemed that it was basically SW related to manufacturing processes and integration of CnC machines to computers. No idea as to how far they have morphed and progressed in terms of an expanding scope.
Cheers

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 27 Jul 2012 14:09

raghuk wrote:HAL's garbage IFF system was chosen over the american super dupers by the navy and please show me one garage in any part of the world which can make the gun bay doors for F/A-18E/F.
Cheers

First the easy things are chosen by IN to be built in India by HAL as part of offsets. I doubt HAL could build the super complex things to the standard that the US builds. Or for that matter the French or the Russians or the Israelis. Have a doubt? What are the specs of the HAL Data Link - II and how does it compare to the Israeli built (or going to be built) Operational Data Link?

Secondly if the IFF is desired to be built locally for strategic reasons, there is no reason to use US systems however superior.

So IFF would be a poor example to choose to demonstrate your disagreement.

That said, HAL is far from garbage as some people are fond of stating. OTOH, HAL is also far from displaying/performing to its potential and would be an underachiever in my book (maybe justifiably so).

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 27 Jul 2012 14:35

I would neither choose the IFF (as it's made by BEL) nor the Data Link-II (also made by BEL) to judge HAL.

As for the speed of the data link, a fast data link is a byproduct of

the latest semiconductors (just like the AESA is),
experience in cutting edge amplifier design in the transmitter for the lowest EVM at high transmission power, and
experience in cutting edge amplifier design in the receiver for the highest receiver sensitivity.

India has none of the giants in wireless communication to set a precedence for these like:

Ericsson: Ericsson (Sweden) + Nortel (Canada)
Alcatel Lucent: Bell / Lucent (USA) + Alcatel (France)
Nokia-Siemens: Nokia (Finland) + Siemens (Germany)
Huawei: Copy-paste all of the above + Huawei (China)
ZTE: Copy-paste all of the above + ZTE (China)

Nevertheless, these specs from JCage during Aero India 2007 are nothing to scoff at.

JCage wrote:Rakall, you were asking for datarate.. local datalinks...they are quite capable..

For Nishant, eg:
Command link, with ECCM etc - 8Kbps, upto 160 Km- the UAVs nav package does not require frequent update and it follows waypoints
Payload link, with ECCM etc- 100 Km, upto 8 Mbps..

We have sufficient experience to move forward with the next gen UAVs..!

Confirmation:

UAV India: OPERATIONAL FINDINGS AND FUTURE DEVELOPMENTS FOR THE DRDO’S INDIGENOUS DATA LINK PROGRAMME
5th–7th September 2011

• How have the DRDO produced a jam resistant data link designed to support multi-mission platforms providing cross C2 and communication protection from insurgent hacking
• Comprehend the benefits of upgrading command and telemetry links by making sure they employ Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (DSSS) capabilities in order to provide an anti-jam margin of 18dB
• Optimise the DSSS connections with the payload link using video bandwidth compression techniques for real-time communications supporting up to 8.5Mbps

Invited Speaker: Shri R.C. Agarwal, Director, Defence Electronics Applications Laboratory, DRDO

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jul 2012 16:35

I was referring to Wikileaks which stated US arms vendors thought HAL was incapable of producing equipment for them and was at least 20-30 years behind in tech. As HAL seems to be building glorified toilet seats for Boeing, seems they are not far from the truth.

Well ................... Two things.

What the US Amby stated was that Indian industry was not ready to absorb some/most/whatever technologies - that US vendors should not expect too much, etc, etc, etc. IMHO that, to some extent, is still valid in certain areas (clearly India needs no hand holding, as an example, in the space arena). I have not read the Wikileak stuff, but from what I have read on the topic I think the Amby was trying to manage expectations. I could be wrong too.

WRT the P-8I, the Indian components are - I think - very solid, time/field tested components. The MKI has had some in them for eons. In fact ANY imported product that flies should be integrated with these reliable products.That should be a given.

However, the decision to integrate these components in the P-8I is Indian, not Boeing. And rightly so. Boeing, for all I know, may still consider them inferior - but who cares? The client (IN) dictates what goes into these planes.

I fully expect the C-17s, Apaches (if and when they come), IL-476 (if and when they come), Rafales, FGFAs, etc to have these components.

However, I am not too sure if I am understanding this (at all). Is the GoI/MoD/IN accepting these components as part of the offsets? Since this is a FMS deal Boeing is not obligated with offsets, but has volunteered.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 27 Jul 2012 19:06

However, I am not too sure if I am understanding this (at all). Is the GoI/MoD/IN accepting these components as part of the offsets? Since this is a FMS deal Boeing is not obligated with offsets, but has volunteered.

Good question boss. I had not thought of that. I assume these parts are manufactured as offsets for other Boeing purchases. Is there not offsets for civilian aircraft purchases as well?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Jul 2012 20:58

tejas wrote:The garbage HAL is building for the F-18 is doors and "wire harnesses" the latter could probably be built by two guys in their garage. It's an offset for other Boeing sales in India.

2 guys in their garage ?

really man, you're displaying your own ignorance here.

This is the gun bay door. If you think that its a damn easy part to manufacture then there's not much left to argue with you since you haven't a clue.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jul 2012 21:18

rajanb wrote:Singhaji
BAE - HAL was formed as a JV for developing SW for export to BAE and also for HAL to pick up expertise SW related to aviation. I was there for the inaugaration decades(?) back and at that time to me it seemed that it was basically SW related to manufacturing processes and integration of CnC machines to computers. No idea as to how far they have morphed and progressed in terms of an expanding scope.
Cheers

They are doing all kinds of low end stuff.

If not mistaken ICICI has some sort of shareholding in this company.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2012 22:22

tejas wrote:The garbage HAL is building for the F-18 is doors and "wire harnesses" the latter could probably be built by two guys in their garage. It's an offset for other Boeing sales in India.

Years ago in college, everyone was after a beautiful girl. But to our envy one unlikely guy got her and then we all rationalized saying "hey anyone could have got her". We were right of course. Anyone could have got her, but only one guy did. We were jealous and we cursed - but it was tough shit for us rejects.

I am sure two guys could whip up that door in a garage or back room. But HAL got the job. Those two guys with the garage did not.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 27 Jul 2012 22:25

Kartik wrote:
tejas wrote:The garbage HAL is building for the F-18 is doors and "wire harnesses" the latter could probably be built by two guys in their garage. It's an offset for other Boeing sales in India.
2 guys in their garage ?

really man, you're displaying your own ignorance here.

This is the gun bay door. If you think that its a damn easy part to manufacture then there's not much left to argue with you since you haven't a clue.

When you normalize the manufacture of gun bay door with difficulty and skill required for making other parts of a plane, then i think it would be one of the easiest parts to make. The point here is that the offsets should be dedicated not towards low tech items (relative) like bay doors but towards high tech items like engine core components etc.

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Jul 2012 23:32

For a USD 2Billion dollar if we get offset of USD 2 Million (which it looks like) then it is nothing. Boeing is cheating on offsets.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 27 Jul 2012 23:49

Kartik it is with a profound sense of frustration and hyperbole that I posted what I said. One of the partners in my group has a brother who owns his own company that machines parts for various companies mostly defense. I have been to his plant and know what such work entails. If you are proud that after 60+ years as the GOI monopoly HAL has graduated from building doors on Boeing civil aircraft to bomb bay doors on 4th generation fighters more power to you

. As for name calling does someone become ignorant if they don't share your beliefs? I suspect I am quite a bit older than you and with an undergraduate degree in engineering and a post graduate in medicine have forgotten more than you will ever know. I would be just as comfortable discussing differential equations as imaging of mucinous cystic tumors of the pancreas on contrast enhanced multidetector CT with you.

Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak built the first Apple computer in a garage. That's the type of innovation that is strangulated in the Socialist Republic of India. The country imports rifles, bullets, toy planes from Switzerland and fuses from South Africa. How is 2012 any change from 1965? An outside arms embargo during a war and the country would be finished in 3 weeks. If supposedly educated people like you are happy with building doors and continue to support the oceans of mediocrity that the DPSUs are, India is finished. India has HMT South Korea, poorer then India in 1947, has Samsung. Oh where is the picture of the wire harness Asia's premier Aerospace complex is building?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Jul 2012 00:49

Not that I think tejas ji needs to be defended here, but his quote actually was:

tejas wrote:The garbage HAL is building for the F-18 is doors and "wire harnesses" the latter could probably be built by two guys in their garage. It's an offset for other Boeing sales in India.

The reference to building something in a garage was about the wire harnesses.

Something about TFTA wire harnesses here.

Airbus chose Labinal for the design, development, engineering, production and testing of wiring harnesses for the nose and cockpit on the A400M military transport. Labinal is carrying out design and installation studies for the nose wiring. The harnesses comprises about 40 electrical bundles and some 15,000 connections. To meet the demanding requirements of the A400M military program, Labinal is developing special technologies, including aluminum wiring, overbraiding of EMI shielding, databus wiring, etc.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 28 Jul 2012 00:56

PratikDas, thanks for noting that and no reason for the ji

Having seen Indians compete with and best what competition the world has to offer here in the US, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that India could produce the entire F-18 if the reverse Midas touch of the govt was removed. The market and purchasing power is there. The private industrial base surely needs to be built up but that is what offsets should be for. India will be purchasing well over $100 billion dollars of foreign weapon systems over the next 10 years. The offset money must be used to build up a self sustaining industry in India. BEMLs need not apply. I see a glimmer of hope in Reliance entering this sector. From Tarmak007:

Former vice-chief Air Marshal (retd) A M Barbora, welcomed the move to get the private companies onboard for aerospace projects in a big way. “The private sector in India was never given a level-playing field in military aviation. I have seen the capabilities of Indian PSUs and was never happy with them. The current decision by the government will increase competition, reduce cost and increase quality,” Barbora, said

Monopolies are bad. Govt monopolies are the worst. Or this just true for the rest of the planet except India?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jul 2012 02:47

Tejas ji (let me add 'ji' .. you are much older than me and I feel un comfortable otherwise),

I am one of the firmest supporters of privatization. I subscribe to your views of if we have to grow from here, there has be more at stake (to gain or lose) to be productive. I have always maintained a high respect for what HAL has achieved, but I also believe that it could have achieved way more. For example in your support, I can say that Aerostaff provides similar parts for F-35. Aerostaff has been in existence for the last 20 odd years, is a company working out of 28000 sq. ft. floor space and I would guess around 100 people.

But, I don't subscribe to the belittling of HAL-s achievements that you are doing. Boeing as a company doesn't give a damn of where the part is coming from except for 2 things. 1. govt. regulations and 2. where is it cheapest (anywhere in the world). So credit goes to HAL to get into such a competitive supply chain. And it is not like HAL produces (or has the technology to develop) only gun bay doors! I would like to know from you, which part of the plane (other than the engines) should HAL produce to earn your respect?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jul 2012 02:55

India is finally arriving at the aerospace section ... Reliance, Mahindra and HAL/NAL, and all the smaller entities ... I have great hopes 10 years from now. Wow! I have such a warm feeling inside me now

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 28 Jul 2012 03:40

Greetings indranilroy. My point is not to belittle HAL. That entity, IMHO, can never compete with a Boeing or Lockheed Martin because of its very structure. No competition, no reward for innovation and no punishment for failure. And to top it all off incessant political interference. It is a recipe for disaster which we see played out wherever it is undertaken. My displeasure was with offset money being discharged for bomb bay doors and wire harnesses rather than something that could actually help build up self sufficiency.

My life experiences have built up a visceral distaste of govt run monopolies. I am philosophically opposed to the govt owning businesses as they universally do a poorer job than a well regulated private sector where competition is allowed and encouraged. Why is it that govt owned bus companies and hotels are always in impoverished countries? Could the govt wasting its time and citizen's money running businesses into the ground rather than actually encouraging productive investment have anything to do with it? It difficult to provide a better example then Air India. I do see some light at the end of the tunnel. L&T is being vociferous about building conventional subs in India rather than see them built abroad (which the MoD wants despite L&Ts experience in building Arihant's hull). Bharat Forge wants to build 155 mm artillery for the IA. Reliance sounds like they want to come into the aerospace sector big time--this could be of enormous importance given their resources, savvy and ability to get the job done. Nothing will be possible of course if the GOI plays an obstructionist role. The MIC should be there to produce equipment to defend the country not be job factories for leftist unions.

Reliance did at Jamnagar what Bechtel said was financially unviable. That is saying a lot. We cannot have a defeatist attitude that we are decades behind and cannot catch up. We have to dream big. The current business model has clearly failed why continue to tinker with it? We are already buying nearly all of our high tech. equipment from private companies. I would just like those private companies to be Indian not foreign.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jul 2012 05:03

<OT ALERT>
you would love a book called "Transforming India" by Atanu Dey (if you have not already it).
</OT ALERT>

Is your contention that why is the offset being fulfilled through technology which already exists or is almost within reach of HAL and not with technology which would need ToT and would leap frog HAL in certain technology aspect to the next level?

There are very simple reasons to that, isn't it:
1. The P-8i and F-18 are not RnD projects or ToT projects for that matter. So HAL is building stuff which makes economic sense for itslef and Boeing.
2. Why would America or any country part with that information (no matter how much money India is going to pay)?
3. Suppose America allowed the same and India is ready to pay whatever it takes, there will be delays in the delivery of the planes. Add to it that the P-8i and the F-18s are being churned off the assembly line which would get stalled for want of any part on any plane. Why would Boeing take that risk?

So your analogy with F-18 and P-8i does not hold much water. Plus, you and me have no idea about the quality of the electronic stuff that HAL/BEL are providing. So there is no basis for us to judge!

You could accuse HAL for Hawk (if Assange is to be believed) and Su-30 ToT and assembly rates.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jul 2012 05:21

Formula to transform India:

Satyam vada, dharmam chara, kalam kara.

vic · Post by **vic** » 28 Jul 2012 21:31

As somebody asked - about high tech stuff in an aircraft except engines:-

Actuators
Hydraulics
Landing gear
FBW hardware
Ejection seats

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Jul 2012 21:38

vic wrote:As somebody asked - about high tech stuff in an aircraft except engines:-

Actuators
Hydraulics
Landing gear
FBW hardware
Ejection seats

No EW, weapons systems, mission electronics, instrumentation and communication?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jul 2012 01:18

chetak wrote:
vic wrote:As somebody asked - about high tech stuff in an aircraft except engines:-

Actuators
Hydraulics
Landing gear
FBW hardware
Ejection seats
No EW, weapons systems, mission electronics, instrumentation and communication?

India can build:
Actuators
Hydraulics
FBW Hardware
EW
mission electronics
instrumentation
communication

India at the moment is not self sufficient in:
Ejection seats (does not make economic sense)
Landing gear (struggling with carrier variant because experts from companies who build such systems say that ADA is over overcautious)
weapon systems (lacking in A2A and in some sensor areas)

So you guys are making my point rather than yours!

kit · Post by **kit** » 30 Jul 2012 14:11

For a good dekko regarding the Apache's fighting skills check out the movie Firebirds (1990) .

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 30 Jul 2012 15:18

” AWACS India ” waits Government Clearance

So there will not be any follow up orders for phalcons ???

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jul 2012 15:23

phalcon have priced themselves out of the market.
if the EMB145 based radar and mission system works, I suspect we will work with airbus or boeing to get a plane and dish to our spec and with their help integrate and test our radar.

still a long ways to go though....first the EMB145 has to be proven to some extent before we jump across that gap.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Jul 2012 21:32

Sale of F-35 to India not on the table right now: US

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 30 Jul 2012 23:43

Last I heard India rejected the F-35.

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Jul 2012 11:13

Incorrect, you were saying gun bay door of F-18 is somehow super advanced technology and there Rae no other components, apart from engines which are more advanced. Is HAL making actuators for F-18 or P -8I? Or even Su-30MKI?

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Jul 2012 11:58

Anyway, to go in more interesting line of discussion, here is a poser!

Is anybody aware what is happening to our proposed New Civil Aircraft by NCAD? Last I heard it was supposed to be turbofan 110 seater and 3200 km range. This was one year ago. Has the turboprop version been dropped completely?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Jul 2012 14:10

vic wrote:Incorrect, you were saying gun bay door of F-18 is somehow super advanced technology and there Rae no other components, apart from engines which are more advanced. Is HAL making actuators for F-18 or P -8I? Or even Su-30MKI?

No, you have put two parts of my lines from different posts together to make a completely different meaning.

1. In the first post I said that making the gun bay doors of F-18 is not a simple project and credit should go to HAL to get into a very competitive supply chain for a product for which India is not even a buyer.

2. In a completely different post, I asked what parts of a plane which is considered super-uber technology can HAL/ADA/DRDO complex cannot design or build today?
And the answer to that is not whether HAL builds the actuators for F-18 or P-8I. If it is asked to, HAL/ADA/DRDO can do it. By the way, as far as I know the HAL-Nashik does produce the hydraulics for Su-30 and outsources the unit assembly.