Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

nash · Post by **nash** » 16 Sep 2012 22:54

safeguarding of our airbases are important now.... but the important thing is what will NATO's next step in Af-Pak or we can say in Pak

kit · Post by **kit** » 18 Sep 2012 12:42

I would like to take out Pakistanis Orion's and erieye s before any war in a similar fashion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Sep 2012 09:29

Spares Unavailability Threatens India’s Aging Helo Fleet

Maintaining India’s fleet of more than 230 aging Cheetah and Chetak reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters is turning into a nightmare due to unavailability of spares, according to K.C. Nanda, general manager of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s Barrackpore Division, who sounded the warning at a defense conference held in Kolkata in August.

HAL built both the Cheetah and the Chetak under license from Eurocopter. The Cheetah is a version of the Eurocopter Aérospatiale SA 315B Lama, single-engine helicopter that combines the lighter Alouette II airframe with Alouette III components and powerplant. The Chetak is a license-built Alouette III. Production lines closed in France in the 1980s, and HAL is increasingly having to cannabalize parts, leading to more aircraft on ground and fewer in the air. Eurocopter has kept a production line open for blades solely for the Indian market, according to an industry official.

“It is getting impossible to support the vintage fleet,” an engineer with HAL told AIN. “This will lead to disastrous consequences for the Chetak and Cheetah fleet. Blades, nuts, bolts, rings…We need them all. Now HAL is looking to repair even the main gear box,” he added. The helicopters were to be replaced by 197 new light utility helicopters (LUHs) purchased from abroad. Now HAL is in the process of developing its own LUH and may get the order.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 21 Sep 2012 04:25

Government opens IAF's combat helicopter bid

New Delhi, Sep 20 — The government is set to give the Indian Air Force (IAF) more firepower and capabilities during its 80th anniversary year: New combat and heavy-lift helicopters.

Authoritative sources told India Strategic (http://www.indiastrategic.in) that the financial bid for the Boeing Apache AH-64D had been opened mid-September while that of the two helicopters in the heavy-lift competition - the Boeing Chinook CH-47F and the Russian Mi-26 - should be opened before September-end or so.

It should not take much time to announce the selection as the company with the lower bid would win the deal(s)s to supply the helicopters. Perhaps, the two choices should formally be announced on Air Force Day on October 8, but possibly before.

In the case of the combat helicopter competition, Russia had withdrawn its Mi-28 earlier this year, leaving the field open only to Boeing. So in this case, Boeing will be the winner for the deal to supply 22 helicopters for around $1.4 billion at the estimated market price. Boeing's quote is, of course, secret.

As for the heavy-lift helicopters, the Chinook CH 47F is technically regarded as "more capable" than the Mi-26 but then, the Russian craft carries more under-slung cargo. the IAF will have to make a tough choice here as the Russian machine is not being manufactured now.

Notably, the acquisition programmes of the IAF and the Indian Navy have been on a rather fast track while that of the army has been delayed due to recall and/or revision of several RfPs and other issues.

The government has already cleared a comprehensive upgradation of the IAF's airfields through a programme called MAFI (Modernisation of Airfield Infrastructure), a sophisticated communication network called AFNET, more midair refuelers and AWACS, Pilatus basic trainers, additional transport aircraft - including the C-130J Super Hercules and C 17 Globemaster III - and the selection of the French Dassault Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

Sources also told India Strategic that negotiations with Dassault and other stakeholders like systems supplier Thales and engine-maker Safran-Snecma were proceeding smoothly and the deal should conclude within this financial year (ending March 2013) if not in this calendar year. The package of offsets, transfer of technology and partnerships to produce various systems in India is being negotiated. Several delegations have visited the defence ministry and IAF headquarters in New Delhi and HAL facilities in Bangalore. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is the lead integrator for the MMRCA project.
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kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 21 Sep 2012 11:17

live snake discovered on a IAF’s MiG-21 fighter

A live snake was discovered on a MiG-21 fighter after it returned from a training sortie. The reptile, which was subsequently established to be a harmless rat snake, could be removed only after partially dismantling sections of the fighter. Neither the pilot nor the aircraft was harmed.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 21 Sep 2012 12:14

Live Reptile on MiG-21, IAF wants ‘Hotline’ with Snake Catchers
The Indian Express

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 21 Sep 2012 12:50

Airpower at 18,000’: The Indian Air Force in the Kargil War

A lengthy, more than 70-page article, single link.

P.S. There are plenty of news articles quoting the same article as a base.

Ravishankar · Post by **Ravishankar** » 21 Sep 2012 14:04

Kargil war was a poor test of India's air warfare capability: US think-tank

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 488165.cms

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 21 Sep 2012 14:14

^^^

A better headline would be India did not fully display its air warfare capability during Kargil War.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Sep 2012 21:17

Kargil showed IAF operating under severe constrains put on them by the stupid govt. If they had been given a free hand it would have been over quicker.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 21 Sep 2012 23:20

Bheeshma wrote:Kargil showed IAF operating under severe constrains put on them by the stupid govt. If they had been given a free hand it would have been over quicker.

and what are the constrains you are aware of.. that you found so stupid?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Sep 2012 23:26

Boreas wrote: and what are the constrains you are aware of.. that you found so stupid?

IAF aircraft were not allowed to cross into paki airspace under any circumstances. That meant the paki supply lines could not be targetted at their most vulnerable points inside PoK. This also put severe restrictions on the ingress and egress routes of the aircraft and complicated the problem even further.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Sep 2012 23:56

Boreas wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:Kargil showed IAF operating under severe constrains put on them by the stupid govt. If they had been given a free hand it would have been over quicker.
and what are the constrains you are aware of.. that you found so stupid?

Were you alive in 99? How is that you are not aware of the fact that IA and IAF had to fight with one hand tied behind the back? If it was an all out war pakistan would have ceased to exist in 2 days flat.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 22 Sep 2012 00:12

nachiket wrote:
Boreas wrote: and what are the constrains you are aware of.. that you found so stupid?
IAF aircraft were not allowed to cross into paki airspace under any circumstances. That meant the paki supply lines could not be targetted at their most vulnerable points inside PoK. This also put severe restrictions on the ingress and egress routes of the aircraft and complicated the problem even further.

well nachiket.. I am well aware of that. The question I asked was.. what was stupid in that! Certainly Pakistan wouldn't have welcomed us to use there airspace.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Sep 2012 00:16

Boreas wrote: well nachiket.. I am well aware of that. The question I asked was.. what was stupid in that! Certainly Pakistan wouldn't have welcomed us to use there airspace.

I wouldn't say it was stupid. But the decision was questionable. There was already a war going on and our territory had been invaded. It wasn't exactly a time to pull our punches. Nobody is saying that pakis would have just let us use their airspace. We would have to fight them for it. But that is what the IAF is there for. And the ground war certainly would have gone better for our troops. In any case this is OT. You can reply in the Kargil war thread if you like.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 22 Sep 2012 00:47

@nachiket.. While I respect your opinion of putting it in the category of "being questionable". I think it was a well thought of decision. As under no circumstances we were aiming to grab any landmass beyond what was previously under our control. And for that purpose that strategy worked very well for us, not only it worked well.. it also won a whole lot of Global support for India.. which would have diminished the moment we would have crossed the Loc.

If this is OT.. lets rap it up here. No point stretching it else where.

Bheeshma wrote:
Boreas wrote:and what are the constrains you are aware of.. that you found so stupid?
Were you alive in 99? How is that you are not aware of the fact that IA and IAF had to fight with one hand tied behind the back? If it was an all out war pakistan would have ceased to exist in 2 days flat.

Totally agree.. 3rd day lunch in Kabul.. and by the weekend our people would have been fishing in the Mediterranean.

That enough to make you wet!

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 22 Sep 2012 01:13

Nope we aren't paki army of 65. But the govt still was stupid enough not to let IAF and IS cross the border.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 22 Sep 2012 04:49

Kargil war secret: IAF used 'jugaad'

The Indian Air Force's best kept secret is out: Its stellar role in the Kargil victory 13 years ago had as much to do with its pilots and planes as that great Indian trick, jugaad.

Pilots flew real-time missions with hand-held GPS sets to home in on high-altitude targets, usually tiny contingents of Pakistanis occupying Indian positions. And its aces used hand-held video cameras to record bombing runs for post-op analysis back at the base.

The IAF's "innovative use of airpower (was) one of the excellent features of the Kargil operations", says a new study of the war by Benjamin Lambeth, an airpower historian, released on Thursday.

"A senior officer told me there was a word for these innovations - jugaad," said Lambeth.

The challenge for the IAF in Kargil was unprecedented. No air force had ever been tasked to bomb targets at elevations of 14,000 to 18,000 ft, against a backdrop that made spotting impossible. To top it, there were instructions to not cross the LoC.

A serving IAF pilot, who did not want to be identified, said, "We did use hand-held commercial GPS units, except they were not really hand-held…They were fixed in front, in a bracket."

So, what other jugaad did the IAF do?

Shooting up an avalanche, says Lambeth.

Pilots knew if you couldn't bomb dispersed enemy soldiers, you could hit them with something they least expected: shooting on a mountain side triggered an avalanche. Snow came tumbling down, in a rushing sweep.

There is more. Kargil was just the start. Or was it?

Shubham · Post by **Shubham** » 23 Sep 2012 18:20

IAF to procure two second-hand Mirage-2000 aircraft

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 515322.cms

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 23 Sep 2012 20:42

The search for two second-hand Mirage-2000s is good news and is something I foresaw. Both the losses were two-seaters and it would have severely curtailed training.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 24 Sep 2012 03:28

Cross Posting from the Army news thread

Forces mulling 3 joint commands

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 24 Sep 2012 03:49

VinodTK wrote:Cross Posting from the Army news thread

Forces mulling 3 joint commands

Great initiative, long overdue. Though, it would be better if the heads of these three commands are not always from one service. My fear is that the Special Ops command, if always headed by an Army Lt Gen, will become an extension of the Army - leading to friction between the three services.
The MoD should be selecting the head of each of these three commands - no one should care what Service the officer comes from, as long as he (or she) is best suited for the job.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Sep 2012 17:44

How the USSR revealed its eye in the sky to the Indian Army

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Sep 2012 00:07

From the Minsk Square Matters issue

Good news on HTT-40

Turbo-prop Trainer's First Metal Cut Launched

ARDC launched the first metal cut for HAL Turbo-prop Trainer (HTT)-40 aircraft on August 22, 2012. The program is governed by strict time frame and ARDC is all geared-up to meet the challenge. Key achievements include completion of Preliminary Design Phase (PDP),finalization of Numerical Master
Geometry (NMG), Completion of Preliminary Wind Tunnel Testing, Design of major frames and system finalization.

Shri T. Suvarna Raju, Director (D&D), Shri Praveen Chander, GM, ARDC, Senior ARDC Designers and officers were present at the function held at ARDC Division, Bangalore.

and news on the successful ground run of the first production Dhruv MkIV

The Ground Run of the first production standard ALH Mk-IV Helicopter was completed on August 11, 2012. With this, yet another milestone has been achieved in the concurrent development of ALH.
The first successful run is a result of the combined effort of personnel in the Helicopter Complex, CEMILAC and the DGAQA. The production of ALH Mk-IV was launched a year ago with challenges of integrating new Weapon Systems (Rocket, ATAM & Turret Gun) and related Mission Systems along with
the Optimised Transmission System. HAL has orders for 76 ALH Mk-IV to be delivered to the Indian Army and IAF.

and a snippet on the IJT Sitara

Independent Engine Ground Run of IJT

The young team of the IJT-LSP Project Group has shown a remarkable enthusiasm in learning world-class technology relating to the IJT aircraft, which is being indigenously developed by HAL. Thanks to unstinted efforts, training and leadership, the team successfully organized and performed Engine Ground Run independently for the first time on July 27, 2012 on the third LSP aircraft itself. Being a developing aircraft, all EGRs are being carried out by Test Pilots so far. This exercise has
boosted the confidence of the team and also will result in the availability of Test Pilots for flight
trials.

and LCH sea level trials were successful

LCH Completes Sea Level Trials

The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) programme achieved another major milestone by completing maiden Sea Level trials with its second prototype, TD-2. The flight trials were carried out at Air
Force Station, Tambaram, Chennai during June 28 to Jul 09, 2012. The trials focused mainly on helicopter performance, loads measurement and handling qualities which covered at various all-up weights with external stores installed, bank turns and spot turns, low speed handling, single engine performance and autorotation.

All the test points planned were completed successfully with no major snags observed. Representatives of Customers, RCMA (H/c) & AQA (H/c) participated in sea level trials.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Sep 2012 12:52

India to spend Rs 2 lakh crore over 10 years to boost airpower

NEW DELHI: India will spend over Rs 2 lakh crore (upwards of $35 billion) over the next 10 years to boost its air combat power to counter any threats to its territorial integrity as well as protect its expanding geopolitical interests.

While IAF's acquisition programmes have been well-documented — ranging from 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to over 200 futuristic 5th generation stealth fighters — the deputy chief of air staff Air Marshal R K Sharma put a figure to it on Thursday.

Speaking at a seminar on "Energizing the Aerospace Industry in India" here, Air Marshal Sharma said IAF plans to spend Rs 2 lakh crore on capital procurements during the 12th (2012-2017) and 13th (2017-2022) Plans while underlining the "huge potential" for the private sector to work in the defence sector.

Incidentally, this comes after Navy's ongoing warship, submarine and maritime aircraft acquisition programmes as well as proposed projects over the next 15 years were pegged at over Rs 3 lakh crore, as was first reported by TOI earlier.

The IAF figure may also sound "staggering" to some, but it's "a question of simple mathematics". With the norm being a 12%-15% hike in IAF's capital outlay every year, it already stands at Rs 30,514 crore for this fiscal.

Taking annual budgets over the two five-year Plan periods into account, and subtracting the amounts for capital works, the Rs 2 lakh crore figure seems conservative. "Moreover, it's for not just new acquisitions but also committed liabilities or installments for deals already inked," said a senior officer.

With both China and Pakistan bolstering their air forces, IAF certainly needs well-planned systematic inductions of fighters and helicopters, mid-air refuellers and transport planes, spy and combat drones, surface-to-air missiles and advanced radars.

Despite airpower being critical in winning modern wars, IAF is down to just 33-34 fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets) due to progressive phasing out of virtually obsolete MiGs. It will not be able to achieve its "sanctioned strength" of 39.5 squadrons even by 2017 despite needing at least 44 squadrons for "robust dissuasive deterrence" against China and Pakistan.

IAF is heavily banking upon the almost $20 billion MMRCA project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to plug gaps, apart from the ongoing phased induction of 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion.

With final commercial negotiations underway, the MMRCA contract is likely to be inked by mid-2013. The first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition" from France from 2016 onwards, while the rest 108 will subsequently be manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited over six years.

For the long-term, IAF is looking to induct over 200 of the 5th Gen swing-role fighters from 2022 onwards. India and Russia will ink the $11 billion full design R&D contract for them within six months, with each chipping in with $5.5 billion. India will eventually spend around $35 billion on this futuristic fighter project over the next 15-20 years, with each jet to be subsequently produced costing over $100 million.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 25 Sep 2012 12:56

HAL is doing pretty good in helicopters compared to the fixed wing aircraft.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 25 Sep 2012 13:33

Austin wrote: India and Russia will ink the $11 billion full design R&D contract for them within six months, with each chipping in with $5.5 billion. India will eventually spend around $35 billion on this futuristic fighter project over the next 15-20 years, with each jet to be subsequently produced costing over $100 million.

I have to wonder what will cost $5.5 billion from the Indian side for FGFA. The airframe has been fully designed by the Russians already and we will have zero contribution to the engine. Only thing left would be the avionics.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 25 Sep 2012 14:24

A lot of that money is spent on building things to our specification and in our country. The host will take its pound of flesh to cover the losses of licence manufacturing. Compare the US$35 billion for 234 FGFA (US$150 per plane) to US$~18 billion for 126 Rafale (US$140 million per plane) and the deal looks fair. Except that in both cases, the OEM is fleecing us. The only real option is the AMCA which is supposed to cost us US$ 2 billion in R&D with lower costs of production.

vic · Post by **vic** » 25 Sep 2012 16:44

We are doing nothing in PAKFA but are still paying Rs 30,000 crores while reducing the powers of DRDO chief to Rs 10 crores. Great!

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 25 Sep 2012 18:04

vic wrote:We are doing nothing in PAKFA but are still paying Rs 30,000 crores while reducing the powers of DRDO chief to Rs 10 crores. Great!

Thats probably the cost of doing nothing...

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 25 Sep 2012 18:22

^^^

Do you folks even know how much effort and money goes into developing technology? You can't use terms like OEM is fleecing us etc?

How many of you have worked in tech development and know exactly how tough it is to do basic RnD and get a product to market? How much money is required for the same?

And no, we cannot do with low tech in Arms.

No Samsung Galaxy Ace for us as far as arms are concerned. When there is a fight, we need the SGS 3s of the world in our boys hands.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 25 Sep 2012 18:30

mahadev ji, It is the cost that we have to pay to get uber tech. But it does not mean that it is worth every money. For eg, the first Su 30 came for about $40 million. Then the later prices zoomed to $100 million. The Israelis overpriced their Phalcons. It is simple economics at work. Since demand exceeds supply, the price goes up.

Look at the JSF. After winning the bid to supply planes to the US, its priced zoomed from 65 million $ to 120+ million $ in the absence of any competition. It is still climbing. The only solution is to develop our own solutions. I don't think US$140 million for Rafale & US$40 million for upgrading Mirages is cheap but due to the absence of any home grown tech, we have to buy them.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 26 Sep 2012 21:59

MiG-29K landing on the Vikramaditya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjlzfcybLWY

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 27 Sep 2012 06:03

^ What happened? Did the tail-hook not latch during first few tries?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 Sep 2012 07:37

School of hard knocks

Last week, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace released a monograph by a former RAND staffer, Benjamin S. Lambeth, assessing IAF’s performance in the 1999 Kargil border conflict. It is a straightforward rendition of what happened and how the missions were carried out, coming to what are by now stock conclusions in any study on the Indian military in wars, such as the absence of inter-service war and operational planning and, once into the conflict, of cooperation and coordination at least in the initial stages. The still bigger problem was of the complete lack of preparation for fighting an air war in the mountains because nobody in the IAF command structure anticipated an operation “at such elevations until it was forced to do so by operational necessity.” Why not? Well, to tweak one of Tanham’s conclusions, because “traditionally Indians do little formal thinking”.
....

The main lessons of Operation Vijay in Kargil other than the value of self-reliance and preparing for unforeseen tactical missions are that no foreign country will pass on professional secrets. And, as regards the French suppliers, their money-grubbing attitude and their propensity to default on contracts on technology transfer, the Indian government has to ensure that on the Rafale Multi-role Medium-Range Combat Aircraft deal, as I have iterated in this column, the payments be timed with every technology package actually transferred, including not just the source codes and flight control laws, but manufacturing technology for every last sub-assembly and component, and that there are no technology “black boxes” that we, the Indian taxpayers will keep paying for the lifetime of the aircraft.

The defence ministry’s Price Negotiation Committees, in past deals, have invariably ended up favouring the foreign supplier because they have not conditioned payouts on suppliers meeting stringent and time-bound technology transfer criteria for the smallest bit connected with the aircraft, and provisions be inserted for cancellation of the deal if technology is not transferred in toto. These sorts of boondoggles cannot be tolerated anymore. Insiders, however, claim that owing to the usual lax approach of defence ministry-defence production department bureaucrats and the private sector company fronting for the Dassault Avions Company, a host of irregularities may be embedded in the Rafale deal; these will doubtless be investigated by the next government.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 27 Sep 2012 11:28

Karan Dixit wrote:^ What happened? Did the tail-hook not latch during first few tries?

The tail hook was down only in the final try.
The first one was a fly by, the second a touch and go, and the final was the actual landing.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 27 Sep 2012 16:24

Today is the 10th anniversary of the induction of the Su-30 MKI into the IAF.
The first unit to operate the type, 20 Sqn Lightnings , is now the Operational Conversion Unit of the Fleet where newly minted pilots go to fly and fight the Su 30 MKI.
I still recall seeing the Su-30 MKI prototype being demoed by Vyachaslev Averyanov at Aero India 2001 and wondering when will it turn up in IAF Markings.
It did,with a boom, on Sep 27,2002 at Lohegaon,Pune. All the pilots were from different backgrounds,pipelined through the Su30 Ks of 24 Sqn which was the co-;located unit.

It's been an incredible journey and congratulations,compliments and thanks are due to all the people involved.
From visionary IAF officers who grabbed this when it was offered by the Russians.To the Techies and the aircrews who designed it to be what they wished for.To third nation vendors who collabrated on this.
To maligned Babus,politicians,DPSUs who pulled together when needed.
To the ground crews who kept the aircraft superbly maintained in deployments to France,UK,Continental US and other countries en route.

The magnificient men who fly them to the edge and beyond.

Let this be the template for future inductions of high tech multi-national origin platforms.It can and will be bettered.

It has been a long incredible,painful and at at the same time an exhilarating trip for the IAF.

Some squadrons converted, some got re-raised.
Lightnings, Rhinos , Hunting Hawks , Pursoots , Lions , Trisonics , Winged Arrows and now Desert Tigers.

You have come a long way Baby!

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vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 28 Sep 2012 07:12

Cross posting from the Naval thread,

raghuk wrote: Hingeless rotor does not mean the blade cannot be folded, infact ALH-N was demonstrated with folding blades but the folded diameter was not found to be optimal. The LUH from the beginning will have a blade folding capability and it is a hingeless rotor too, perhaps you've confused yourself with the concept of articulated and hingeless rotors.
The flight controls on the ALH are power assisted mechanical type i.e, mechanical linkages boosted by hydraulic systems and with a digital AFCS. I'm not sure what you mean by digital FCS, maybe you can elaborate on that aspect (ALH already carries two AFCS units)
Cheers!

Raghu, first of all congrats to HAL on the Dhruv Mk4

the statement of Analog FCS on Dhruv is just my ignorance, a digital AFCS should be better suited for pilot automation, the mechanical linkages to the hydraulics part is a weight contributor, wonder why they cannot replace with electric actuators which makes it fly-by-wire? would that mean they need to prepare lookup tables mapping the joy stick motion to the various actuators

And there plans to address the endurance issue by adding external fuel tanks and make it airborne refueling capable?

Is a radar being added for surveillance and navigation purposes?

we heard about the FAA and European certification from the HAL CEO, where does that goal stand? or is it under MMRCA political shadow with EF and teens losing out?

durvasa · Post by **durvasa** » 29 Sep 2012 11:07

Just saw Embraer AEW&C taking off from HAL Airport about 10 minute back. Its elongated Radar housing on struts clearly visible.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Sep 2012 11:37

Direction, please..