Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vina » 25 Oct 2012 19:26

Singha wrote:was there no other suitable engine on world market that we had to go with a greenfield AL55 ?


There are two . The IHK F3 from the Kawasaki T-4 trainer, has around 16KN, just around the same as the AL-55I @ 16.9KN

And the Ivchenko Progress AI-25, delivering exactly 16.9KN as the AL-55I. Both the IHI F3 and Ai-25 are well proven engines.

The AL-55I is the replacement engine for the AI-25 for the Yak-40 and Mig-AT. One gets the sinking feeling that India financed the "Russian" solution for the Ukranian replacement on the Russian Yak and Mig AT platforms, while the Chinese went and bought the Ukranian engines off the shelf for the JL-8!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 25 Oct 2012 20:20

Great. Just as i had suspected...we are doing their unit testing and funding their replacement.

Dont understand why ivchenko engine was not good enough for a non-demanding bird like ijt when they are good enough for our an32 fleet. Ukraine will work with anyone for the cash.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby John » 25 Oct 2012 22:07

Singha wrote:Dont understand why ivchenko engine was not good enough for a non-demanding bird like ijt when they are good enough for our an32 fleet. Ukraine will work with anyone for the cash.

It shows lack of planning and experience in the leadership. I suppose since there is no performance or merit based incentive or demotion this end result. To be honest i rather have the whole program canceled and IAF to standardize around the hawk and start open tender for future trainer with private firms.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Cybaru » 25 Oct 2012 22:25

Singha wrote:larzac engine was rejected on the ground of less thrust!

was there no other suitable engine on world market that we had to go with a greenfield AL55 ?
even the Adour 811 or the Honeywell engine proposed for Jags might have worked? cut the afterburner out with a SW lock, keep HW same.

the Hawk AJT engine would also have been a good fit :rotfl:
Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce Adour Mk. 951 turbofan with FADEC, 29 kN (6,500 lbf) 29 kN

I dont think any country would take up development of a new IJT and in parallel hope to use a new engine as well and not face schedule slippages.

I dont know why we have this sweetheart deal of 1000 engines on a no contest basis to Sukhoi...some palms might have been greased over it.



Why not use the adour engine that will be coming off the jags. I am sure there is enough life left in them. Overhaul and use for IJT.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 26 Oct 2012 07:30

Using the hawk engine would have been a good fit because the ijt and ajt units might be based together and share some ground support. Engine could have been derated by sw from rr to cut out the higher thrust band unsuitable for trainees.

The ivchenko engine would also have worked fine and perhaps cheaper than hawk.

We got suckered by sukhoi on this....giving up readymade solutions.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Victor » 26 Oct 2012 08:09

We have repeated this keystone cops routine for 60 years but somehow our geniuses never learned to start with the engine first and then build a plane around it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby John » 26 Oct 2012 08:43

Looking back wow time flies nearly a decade has passed since it first flew, i still remember how many of us here rationalized the purchase Al-55 as a stroke of genius and how we will have squadrons of CAT operational by 2010. Those were the good ol' days. IAF best decision last decade was IMO purchasing the HAWK.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kersi D » 26 Oct 2012 13:43

vina wrote: One gets the sinking feeling that India financed the "Russian" solution for the Ukranian replacement on the Russian Yak and Mig AT platforms, while the Chinese went and bought the Ukranian engines off the shelf for the JL-8!


Jai Hind

Hindi Ruskies Bhai Bhai

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 26 Oct 2012 18:59

maybe it was done to keep the engine out of paqui hands?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby kit » 26 Oct 2012 23:10

Lalmohan wrote:maybe it was done to keep the engine out of paqui hands?


how long do you keep doing that

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nachiket » 26 Oct 2012 23:24

Lalmohan wrote:maybe it was done to keep the engine out of paqui hands?

What difference did that make? It was the aircraft (JL-8) they were interested in and they got that (with a Honeywell engine I think). The engine we really wanted to keep out of Pakistani hands was the RD-93, and the russkies refused to play ball on that.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 27 Oct 2012 16:10

The first six MiG-29 fighters intended for Indian air forces have been upgraded by RAC MiG

The first six MiG-29 fighters intended for Indian air forces have been upgraded by RAC MiG, said in the reference materials presented to the journalists at the meeting of Duma’s Defense Committee held in Lukhovitsi (Moscow Region), RIA Novosti reports.

"MiG Corporation is upgrading the jets of Indian air forces in the network of MiG-29 UPG program implemented in accordance with the contract signed in March 2008. The first six jets have undergone the overhaul and upgrading at RAC MiG’s site. Over 90% of the jets will be upgraded in India", - said in the reference.

The jets are equipped with advanced avionics unified with the avionics of ship-based MiG-29K/KUB fighters of Indian navy.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 27 Oct 2012 18:36

shiv wrote:
Kartik wrote:Shivji, would it be possible to post a scan of the article/snippet on the IJT from Vayu? Or was it a chaiwallah that gave you that piece of news?

No I'll post a scan. IJT engine news is separate - I think it was posted on here can't recall where I saw it. Will search.


Yes there is a single line ref in the latest issue of vayu "reports of teething toubles with AL 55(I)" leading to delays in IJT. Clearly there is a clamp down on news.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23677 » 28 Oct 2012 05:29



Americans are a back stabbing lot, I hope govt. takes care to not accept all the strings that might come attached to these deals.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vasu raya » 28 Oct 2012 07:42

The service ceiling for Chinook is given as 5640m according to wiki, given the below two pictures, first one shows the angle of attack of the fuselage, the 2nd shows skids, can the Chinook be made to climb glacier slopes with the rear skids dragging over the snow covered slope? The Himalayan range is said to have permanent snow cover from a height of 5500m onwards, how convenient!

Chinook at its peak altitude may have its vertical lift component saturated however the forward vector component is still there and there also might be the help of over the ground hover effect making the chopper light enough to move and reducing the drag due to snow surface contact also similar to how hovercrafts operate

the upside is it can carry reasonable loads inside its airframe compared to other choppers, the downside is the rotors make horrendous noise which could trigger avalanches

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Netherlands---Air/Boeing-CH-47D-Chinook/1123823/L/

http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/photos/navy-seals/seals-chinook-helicopter-hr.jpg

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 28 Oct 2012 07:50

I think since we have never put a made in india jet engine into squadron service, the critical project definition and finalization boards that decide the project plan of new efforts like Ijt probably do not have engine experts with any voice or stature within the matrix. Gtre exists in its own sandbox.

Thats why the keystone cops routine keeps repeating over and over. The airframe and avionics guys dominate and engine issue is a afterthought.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Bala Vignesh » 28 Oct 2012 10:39

vasu raya wrote:The service ceiling for Chinook is given as 5640m according to wiki, given the below two pictures, first one shows the angle of attack of the fuselage, the 2nd shows skids, can the Chinook be made to climb glacier slopes with the rear skids dragging over the snow covered slope? The Himalayan range is said to have permanent snow cover from a height of 5500m onwards, how convenient!

Chinook at its peak altitude may have its vertical lift component saturated however the forward vector component is still there and there also might be the help of over the ground hover effect making the chopper light enough to move and reducing the drag due to snow surface contact also similar to how hovercrafts operate

the upside is it can carry reasonable loads inside its airframe compared to other choppers, the downside is the rotors make horrendous noise which could trigger avalanches

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Netherlands---Air/Boeing-CH-47D-Chinook/1123823/L/

http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/photos/navy-seals/seals-chinook-helicopter-hr.jpg

Vivek or Kartik would be the right person answer this more correctly, but as a layman, I guess with minimal power and control margins in those altitudes, I don't think the Chinook can do a manoeuvre that you are suggesting.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 28 Oct 2012 10:52

looking at the small number being purchased I wonder whats the specific role for this platform? rapid induction of high numbers of troops with 1st line ammo or moving heavy pallets of ammo , shipons, Milans and mortar rounds into the isolated outposts?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Brando » 28 Oct 2012 11:21

The article states that the Indian Armed Force are looking at acquiring 139 "medium-lift" helicopters and 15 "heavy-lift" helicopters.

With the Mi17V5 being acquired hand over fist by India, wouldn't it be more economical to reduce the number of platforms while increasing air transportable tonnage by reducing the Mi17 orders and increasing the number of Chinooks (if it is selected) ??

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Roperia » 28 Oct 2012 11:29

Singha wrote:... whats the specific role for this platform? rapid induction of high numbers of troops with 1st line ammo or moving heavy pallets of ammo , shipons, Milans and mortar rounds into the isolated outposts?


+ M777

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 28 Oct 2012 13:45

Then it seems 15 is just the first bite and more will come unlike possibly the apaches where iaf might not get ok to buy more.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 28 Oct 2012 18:47

Fresh hurdle to replace Cheetah, Chetak choppers

As the latest effort to procure 197 Light Utility Helicopters enters final stages, allegations have surfaced yet again questioning its probity. Documents filed in an Italian court say that an Army aviation brigadier had sought a commission of $5 million (approx Rs 25 crore) to manipulate the trials to suit AgustaWestland, an associate of Finmeccanica, which is under investigation in Italy for alleged kickbacks.

AgustaWestland and US helicopter-maker Sikorsky ultimately did not qualify in the 197 helicopter trials, and the final competition is now between Eurocopter and Russian firm Kamov. However, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by A K Antony, which meets on Monday to discuss among others purchase of these choppers, would not be able to wish away the allegations.

Military top brass is surprised by the eerie coincidence with the last time's aborted bid in 2007. After Eurocopter was selected, unsubstantiated allegations emerged in the media about manipulation of the deal. As the ministry of defence (MoD) maintained a studied silence, a key joint secretary transferred the reports into official concerns. Given the sensitivities around corruption, his senior officials had no option but to agree with him, one of them told TOI recently. Antony referred the file to CVC, which recommended cancellation of the deal. Two of the senior most officials involved in the issue told TOI recently that they were "tricked" into the cancellation.

The process to find a replacement for Cheetah/Chetak helicopters was started in the early part of last decade. Some 15 years later, and many crashes involving the ageing helicopters and death of several pilots and personnel, all the arms of the military are still waiting. The Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has yet not been able to produce an indigenous replacement.


What an awful situation. Has the Indian Army completed even one large-ticket procurement without allegations of lurid going-ons? Compare this to the IAF-led process for the MMRCA, attack helicopters, heavy helicopters, refueling aircraft, etc etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Will » 28 Oct 2012 19:08

India needs to get over the fetish of scrapping tenders and deals at the whiff of a scandal. The guilty go unpunished but it is the armed forces and the country that suffers as a result

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Vipul » 28 Oct 2012 21:06

A K Antony is hardly going to let this golden opportunity of re-inforcing his non-corrupt credentails go waste.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sum » 28 Oct 2012 21:24

The process to find a replacement for Cheetah/Chetak helicopters was started in the early part of last decade. Some 15 years later, and many crashes involving the ageing helicopters and death of several pilots and personnel, all the arms of the military are still waiting

Pathetic..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vasu raya » 28 Oct 2012 21:47

Bala Vignesh wrote:
vasu raya wrote:The service ceiling for Chinook is given as 5640m according to wiki, given the below two pictures, first one shows the angle of attack of the fuselage, the 2nd shows skids, can the Chinook be made to climb glacier slopes with the rear skids dragging over the snow covered slope? The Himalayan range is said to have permanent snow cover from a height of 5500m onwards, how convenient!

Chinook at its peak altitude may have its vertical lift component saturated however the forward vector component is still there and there also might be the help of over the ground hover effect making the chopper light enough to move and reducing the drag due to snow surface contact also similar to how hovercrafts operate

the upside is it can carry reasonable loads inside its airframe compared to other choppers, the downside is the rotors make horrendous noise which could trigger avalanches

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Netherlands---Air/Boeing-CH-47D-Chinook/1123823/L/

http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/photos/navy-seals/seals-chinook-helicopter-hr.jpg

Vivek or Kartik would be the right person answer this more correctly, but as a layman, I guess with minimal power and control margins in those altitudes, I don't think the Chinook can do a manoeuvre that you are suggesting.


Hopefully they respond, here is what I found comparing the power to weight ratios of a hovercraft to the Chinook,

a) SRN4, this hovercraft operated in the UK on a commercial scale 3800shp*4/320tons = 47.5
b) CH-47F, 4733hp*2/23t = 411.6

the Chinook has almost 10 times additional power and I believe most of it is used for lift, however even at its peak altitude it is traveling on the snow so doesn't need the full lift power, then the forward thrust in rarified air is reduced so it really depends on the effective vector between the vertical lift and the forward thrust vector that makes the snow traversal efficient and also depends on the gradient of the slope. The hovercraft can operate on 1:11 slope and it has zero lift vector.

watch this video of Dhruv at 20:28 secs, they are skating on grass, don't know why.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby gnair » 29 Oct 2012 07:43

[quote][/quote]watch this video of Dhruv at 20:28 secs, they are skating on grass, don't know why.

In airfields, that have fixed-wing and rotary operations, the helicopter hovers just above the ground, to the active runway and then climbs to its initial altitude, just like a fixed wing aircraft would taxi from the apron to the taxi way and then the active runway for departure into the circuit. Each airfield has its unique departure and arrival procedures that must be followed, and is available in the airfield chart that the pilot must be aware about. If you re-look at sections of the clip, you'd notice an asphalt runway in the background, while he's climbing.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 30 Oct 2012 02:37

Surya wrote:maybe Kartik can explain if there is any logic in trying a new engine and a new aircraft

You would think the LCA\Kaveri episode would have given them pause

The SKAT guys were smart to say no

I am hoping for a stripped down hawk now


Surya, I don't think that there is any sense whatsoever in getting a new engine developed AFTER the airframe prototype already exists. That decision was puzzling if there were other options that existed as other posters have pointed out, especially the Ivchenko engine. Surely the designers of the IJT must have known their empty design weight goal and that the French Larzac was inadequate for the required T/W ratio and performance specifications. So, the engine decision should have been made before the airframe design was complete.

In all airplane development programs, the engine development must in fact lead the airframe development by a good 3-4 years since the phase during which the engine actually matures after exhaustive testing is quite long and if any bugs are encountered at that time, it will delay the entire project.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Surya » 30 Oct 2012 02:46

kartik

my bad

I meant the logic of going for a new engine for the IJT to begin with

but you have answered it anyway

thanks

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 30 Oct 2012 03:28

Vipul wrote:A K Antony is hardly going to let this golden opportunity of re-inforcing his non-corrupt credentails go waste.


but why blame him alone when the problem also lies in corruption in the Armed Forces and in having unsavoury middlemen that get involved?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Vipul » 30 Oct 2012 03:50

As the Boss, the buck stops with him and instead of moral posturing did he take action against any of those named or exposed as middlemen?
Did he raise a squick when his master (Murkh Maun Singh)and others in the cotiere were going against the ex-army chief V K Singh who refused to favour Tatra?
These self-serving and so called clean ministers are equally guilty in chossing not to go by what is right. Trying to prove his clean image through appointing various comissions and calling off trials is only too easy but it is the country that suffers.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby merlin » 30 Oct 2012 11:16

Exactly. As the boss finally its his responsibility. IMO he's trying to protect his "clean" image at the cost of the country.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vivek_ahuja » 30 Oct 2012 12:37

vasu raya wrote:The service ceiling for Chinook is given as 5640m according to wiki, given the below two pictures, first one shows the angle of attack of the fuselage, the 2nd shows skids, can the Chinook be made to climb glacier slopes with the rear skids dragging over the snow covered slope? The Himalayan range is said to have permanent snow cover from a height of 5500m onwards, how convenient!

Chinook at its peak altitude may have its vertical lift component saturated however the forward vector component is still there and there also might be the help of over the ground hover effect making the chopper light enough to move and reducing the drag due to snow surface contact also similar to how hovercrafts operate

the upside is it can carry reasonable loads inside its airframe compared to other choppers, the downside is the rotors make horrendous noise which could trigger avalanches

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Netherlands---Air/Boeing-CH-47D-Chinook/1123823/L/

http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/photos/navy-seals/seals-chinook-helicopter-hr.jpg


The various helicopter ceilings are defined on the basis of Rate of Climb (ROC) rates for helicopters globally as a uniform figure of merit. The two main figures to note are the Service Ceiling and the Combat Ceilings.

Service Ceiling: Ability of helicopter to provide at least 0.5m/sec ROC
Combat Ceiling: Ability of helicopter to provide at least 2.5m/sec ROC (Indian Minimum ROC requirement for military uses)

So the Chinook might be able to offer a service ceiling of 5640m as advertised, but it is in all certainty the ceiling classified in forward flight (and also in stripped down condition with minimum required fuel for these evaluations). Hover Ceiling (within In-Ground Effect (IGE) or Out of ground Effect (OGE)) is usually much lower. Take a look at the plots on my blog here:

http://mach-five.blogspot.com/2012/04/helicopter-charts.html

The Chinook operating at Siachen is quite frankly, not an option.

Just a few comments.

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_20453 » 30 Oct 2012 20:13

I think there is no point blaming Mr. AK, he reamins one of the few reliable people the country just like the AK-47 he remains reliable. The MOD has taken adequate action by blacklisting quite a few players who didn't play by the rule hence the artillery tenders saga that continues to this day. It isn't easy for a clean man to take down an unclean majority of peole in a very corrupt environment without getting his hands dirty. Lets not be quick to discredit the few clean ministers. St.Anthony is the reason why US didn't get its way through the MRCA and soo many manufacturers are blacklisted.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2012 21:28

the artillery and T90 "issues" started long before he arrived on the scene as DefMin iirc. these folks have had their hooks and claws into MOD/DGMO/retired officer "agents" from before we were even born probably, its just that from mid 90s the spread of internet and collective hives like BR have made it more visible.

that doesnt make it right though, ripping off and cheating a cash starved country like us, denying us the deserving choices in favour of "sifarish" ones. fits right in with the general atmosphere of mental decay and corruption in lutyens zone.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby GeorgeWelch » 31 Oct 2012 00:13

vivek_ahuja wrote:The Chinook operating at Siachen is quite frankly, not an option.


Siachen - 12,188ft

U.S. Helicopter Provides Vital Lift to Docs Treating Epidemic

A U.S. MH-47 Chinook picked up the three doctors, from the aid group Aga Khan Development Network, and 15 boxes of supplies in Faisabad and transported them to Darwaz . . . Darwaz, in the Badhakshan Province, is at about 15,000 feet above sea level



Helicopter rescues in Denali (Mt McKinley, Alaska)

19,600' - 06/09/95 - CH-47-CHINOOK - altitude sickness and frostbite HART
18,200' - 06/11/78 - CH-47-CHINOOK - acute mountain sickness HART
18,200' - 05/27/83 - CH-47-CHINOOK - altitude sickness and frostbite HART
17,200' - 04/07/76 - CH-47-CHINOOK - broken ankle

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nachiket » 31 Oct 2012 01:26

^^The helipad at Sonam is at 21000 ft.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... eater.html

I don't think the IAF is buying the Chinook with a view to supplying Siachen anyway.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby GeorgeWelch » 31 Oct 2012 02:06

nachiket wrote:^^The helipad at Sonam is at 21000 ft.


Yes, that's the single highest helipad.

All the others are lower

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 31 Oct 2012 02:41

GeorgeWelch wrote:
nachiket wrote:^^The helipad at Sonam is at 21000 ft.


Yes, that's the single highest helipad.

All the others are lower


Even the Base Camp for Siachen Glacier is at 18,000 ft.

link


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