Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Pratyush » 10 Nov 2012 15:56

^^^

Saar Ji, Why do you want to phyr a 40 Km range rakit phrom a moving helo.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 10 Nov 2012 16:44

actually i am starting to warm to the idea. the pinaka-NLOS-TCS can likely be halved from current size and still command a useful range of 20km....long enough to safely be outside any form of MANPAD/SRSAM range and long enough to shoot from behind cover / behind the next ridgeline.

just because anyone else hasnt deployed it yet shouldnt be cause to kill the messenger. there is a strange and compelling logic in the idea given our rather SPARSE road infra in fwd areas.

infact match up these special Mi17 and their crews to the pinaka regiments ! and in that way use the pinaka's where they can reach , but potentially reach out another 100km in any direction and vastly expand the damage potential of each pinaka regiment. the ground units reload chain also supplies the airborne unit. only thing is the size of rockets are different.

in support of deep strike SF action, a couple of these Mi17 could tag along with the apaches/LCH and chinooks and launch a devastating initial volley of rockets in the first min of the engagement.

there's a lot of fun to be had with these platforms.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Pratyush » 10 Nov 2012 19:25

Singha Ji,

The point is the tactical utility of such a setup. When you have battlefield attack options ranging from arty to Pinaka to Prahar. Having such an option on an Mi 17 is an overlap in capability. Not to mention very expensive way of doing things.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 10 Nov 2012 20:04

Pinaka launch image
Image

sarabpal.s
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sarabpal.s » 10 Nov 2012 21:22

Looking forward to the day when Pinaka have wings to add to its gliding range.
Just like stand off bomb :idea:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby RoyG » 10 Nov 2012 22:01

sarabpal.s wrote:Looking forward to the day when Pinaka have wings to add to its gliding range.
Just like stand off bomb :idea:


:shock:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 10 Nov 2012 22:06

So far no signs that ia is interested in prahaar.

Does russia have a similar system we could import at huge cost and trouble perhaps ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 10 Nov 2012 22:31

When a Pinaka is launched it lets off a huge plume of white hot gases.The Mi 17 intakes will ingest that plume soon after launching one of those brutes. I suppose the robotic arm would cover the nose of the intakes with two robotic fingers and prevent it from breathing at that time? The flight control software could be made to do that.

Its more fun to work with my brain switched off.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 10 Nov 2012 22:32

When a Pinaka is launched it lets off a huge plume of white hot gases.The Mi 17 intakes will ingest that plume soon after launching one of those brutes. I suppose the robotic arm would cover the nose of the intakes with two robotic fingers and prevent it from breathing at that time? The flight control software could be made to do that.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 10 Nov 2012 22:33

When a Pinaka is launched it lets off a huge plume of white hot gases.The Mi 17 intakes will ingest that plume soon after launching one of those brutes. I suppose the robotic arm would cover the nose of the intakes with two robotic fingers and prevent it from breathing at that time? The flight control software could be made to do that.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Victor » 10 Nov 2012 22:33

If we want a gigantopithecus airborne artillery system like this, we would need Il-76 type aircraft. The 8" Pinaka rocket even in shortened form would shake apart any chopper when fired singly, forget in a volley. OTOH, practically the same effect can be had with a guided air to ground missile in a much smaller package. Which is why things are as they are.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 10 Nov 2012 22:34

When a Pinaka is launched it lets off a huge plume of white hot gases.The Mi 17 intakes will ingest that plume soon after launching one of those brutes. I suppose the robotic arm would cover the nose of the intakes with two robotic fingers and prevent it from breathing at that time? The flight control software could be made to do that.

Its much more fun to work with my brain switched off.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Will » 10 Nov 2012 23:15

Victor wrote:If we want a gigantopithecus airborne artillery system like this, we would need Il-76 type aircraft. The 8" Pinaka rocket even in shortened form would shake apart any chopper when fired singly, forget in a volley. OTOH, practically the same effect can be had with a guided air to ground missile in a much smaller package. Which is why things are as they are.



While we are at it why not mount the whole Pinaka system on the IL-76, Tatra Truck and all so that the IL-76 fires rockets out of its backside. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vivek_ahuja » 10 Nov 2012 23:53

Will wrote:
Victor wrote:If we want a gigantopithecus airborne artillery system like this, we would need Il-76 type aircraft. The 8" Pinaka rocket even in shortened form would shake apart any chopper when fired singly, forget in a volley. OTOH, practically the same effect can be had with a guided air to ground missile in a much smaller package. Which is why things are as they are.



While we are at it why not mount the whole Pinaka system on the IL-76, Tatra Truck and all so that the IL-76 fires rockets out of its backside. :twisted:


:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Victor » 11 Nov 2012 00:08

Flying artillery took on a new meaning when the AC-130 Spectre packed both a 40mm cannon and a 105mm howitzer firing out the side. Theoretically, the Il-76 could carry a 155mm Bofors pointing out the back. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Gurneesh » 11 Nov 2012 00:09

You all got it wrong. We actually need this ::
Image

Maybe the russians will install smerch launchers instead of cannons.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vasu raya » 11 Nov 2012 00:13

Singhaji, hopefully the utility part is covered, while BM-21 grad rockets might work, its the actual launch mechanism and how the TCS helps this is still not clear

1) I believe Trajectory Correction System is launcher based where launch tube elevation angle and orientation are set before firing the unguided rocket, it becomes tricky since all this somehow would have to be handled by launch tubes on a vibrating pylon not to mention recoil forces and smoke ingestion

2) Instead if the rocket itself is made capable enough, in launch phase it is released into the slip stream, a small booster is fired and a nose cap gives it the required angled orientation and then blown off (inspired by Brahmos launch sequence and it is reliable enough), the small booster is dropped and the actual rocket takes off, the terminal stage is GPS guided for precision and given that the Mi-17's are used by a number of operators, such unique capability gives us brand differentiation :P

Bala Vigneshji, how about a 4 ship formation?

Praytushji, while transport fleet size is a larger issue as long as the Choppers remain with AAC they might not complain, and in addition to redundancy, a demo solution implemented on Mi-17's can be the first cut followed by revision two on the medium lift chopper to be developed by HAL where the rockets are optimized

OK, my reloads are over :lol: and we are a bunch of crabs

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby koti » 11 Nov 2012 03:07

Singha wrote:actually i am starting to warm to the idea. the pinaka-NLOS-TCS can likely be halved from current size and still command a useful range of 20km....long enough to safely be outside any form of MANPAD/SRSAM range and long enough to shoot from behind cover / behind the next ridgeline.
there's a lot of fun to be had with these platforms.

MANPADS are not a threat if we know they are located at the target. Say, a C2 center or ammo dump. What makes MANPADS deadly is their ability to spread out and target unsuspecting helis. How can we say a NLOS-Pinaka-Mi-17 wont be tageted by a sneaking MANPAD? And if we are using this within our side of the border won't a regular Pinaka be better? both interms of range and usable tonnage?
in support of deep strike SF action, a couple of these Mi17 could tag along with the apaches/LCH and chinooks and launch a devastating initial volley of rockets in the first min of the engagement.
I think the element of surprise will be lost.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Surya » 11 Nov 2012 04:16

this thread has officially gone nuts

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 11 Nov 2012 05:58

Victor wrote:Theoretically, the Il-76 could carry a 155mm Bofors pointing out the back. :mrgreen:


No. An Il 76 is too lumbering. It should be mounted on a Dornier. Nimble, small and stealthy.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sarabpal.s » 11 Nov 2012 11:35

RoyG wrote:
sarabpal.s wrote:Looking forward to the day when Pinaka have wings to add to its gliding range.
Just like stand off bomb :idea:


:shock:

No no not on Helicopter,As some BRites taken my point but launched from ground than reaching the maximum height than Pinaka rocket with help of popup wings glide toward target. wings can help gliding to extend range just like stand off weapon dropped from aircraft.

Although US tried some rocket from Chinook during Vietnam unsuccessfully

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby chetak » 11 Nov 2012 14:55

shiv wrote:
Victor wrote:Theoretically, the Il-76 could carry a 155mm Bofors pointing out the back. :mrgreen:


No. An Il 76 is too lumbering. It should be mounted on a Dornier. Nimble, small and stealthy.




Hakim Janab,
The recoil of the very first shot will take out the aircraft itself... :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 11 Nov 2012 15:29

Well i suppose a bunch of sdb will do this better i have to admit

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby khukri » 11 Nov 2012 17:30

chetak wrote:


Hakim Janab,
The recoil of the very first shot will take out the aircraft itself... :wink:


True although the US has mounted a 105mm gun on a C-130, together with a Gatling gun and a 40mm bofors cannon...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AC-130

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vasu raya » 11 Nov 2012 20:26

Singha wrote:Well i suppose a bunch of sdb will do this better i have to admit


Singhaji, sdb still needs altitude to achieve its standoff range unless they could do a pop-up maneuver gaining few kms of altitude so that

1) the Mi-17 could still fly with decent nos
2) the sdb can clear high mountains

the ballistic path of rockets does this by default :?:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby koti » 12 Nov 2012 08:50

I have read somewhere that ARC uses Lakshya.
Why does it require Lakshya?
Is it employed in any other role other then as a target aircraft?
Won't Nishant be better?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nachiket » 12 Nov 2012 10:27

Vasu Raya, can you take your rather um... innovative suggestions to the Newbie thread please. I really don't think this thread is meant to discuss mounting Pinaka rockets on frickin Mi-17s.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Will » 12 Nov 2012 20:39

Surya wrote:this thread has officially gone nuts


+1000 :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vasu raya » 12 Nov 2012 20:57

nachiket, just a correction, the discussion was about air launch of NLOS rockets from Mi-17 as a concept, at the realization level 20km range got a half-hearted nod and sdbs were proposed, meanwhile the local Khap panchayat is after Pinaka which is now classified as an outlier

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Bala Vignesh » 12 Nov 2012 21:11

vasu raya wrote:
Singha wrote:Well i suppose a bunch of sdb will do this better i have to admit


Singhaji, sdb still needs altitude to achieve its standoff range unless they could do a pop-up maneuver gaining few kms of altitude so that

1) the Mi-17 could still fly with decent nos
2) the sdb can clear high mountains

the ballistic path of rockets does this by default :?:

Vasu,
What I don't understand is why this fixation on the Mi17??? I mean its an utility vehicle, designed to carry supplies to the troops and the troops themselves, why not let it do what it is designed for and let this business be taken care of heli's designed for this role..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vivek_ahuja » 12 Nov 2012 22:43

Bala Vignesh wrote:What I don't understand is why this fixation on the Mi17??? I mean its an utility vehicle, designed to carry supplies to the troops and the troops themselves, why not let it do what it is designed for and let this business be taken care of heli's designed for this role..


Message from Mi-17 to BRF Jingos: "Leave me ALONE!!"

:rotfl:

But seriously though: time to move this discussion to some other thread before the admin drones start taking too much interest in this little fun party here...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Aditya G » 13 Nov 2012 11:37



Good stuff from Ranjan as usual.

Note:

1. Aux fuel tanks are pictured for first time in the IAF (though common elsewhere)

2. Some of the V5s have conventional clam sheel type doors ... others with the more modern ramp. what gives?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Bala Vignesh » 13 Nov 2012 12:55

vivek_ahuja wrote:Message from Mi-17 to BRF Jingos: "Leave me ALONE!!"

:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Will » 13 Nov 2012 15:22

While we are on the topic of choppers, instead of the IL 76, instead of retiring the Mi 26 we should just have them lift a Pinaka system and hover over the battlefield and fire rockets. I bet the MI 26 should have no probloem lifting a Tatra truck . Its flexibility you see. Use it on the ground when needed and in the air whenever needed. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 13 Nov 2012 16:19

Will wrote:While we are on the topic of choppers, instead of the IL 76, instead of retiring the Mi 26 we should just have them lift a Pinaka system and hover over the battlefield and fire rockets. I bet the MI 26 should have no probloem lifting a Tatra truck . Its flexibility you see. Use it on the ground when needed and in the air whenever needed.


Yes I agree. Neither the Mi 26 nor the Pinaka systems would be sitting ducks. At worst they would be flying, shootin' ducks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 13 Nov 2012 17:18

seriously do folks see a role for AC130 style gunship using a modded AN32 "G" - 40mm cannon and a gatling gun.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Pratyush » 13 Nov 2012 17:27

vasu raya wrote:nachiket, just a correction, the discussion was about air launch of NLOS rockets from Mi-17 as a concept, at the realization level 20km range got a half-hearted nod and sdbs were proposed, meanwhile the local Khap panchayat is after Pinaka which is now classified as an outlier


The fact is that India posses neither the NLOS nor the SDB at the moment. The SDB by its very nature is a weapon to be deployed from a high seed platform. Read not suitable for a helo launch. Coming to NLOS, given the nature of the weapon and the likely range. Its functioning is largely independent of the launch platform. That being the case launching it from a helo is doesnot really give great a boot in terms of war fighting ability. While your suggestion has the disadvantage of removing a Mi 17, from tpt duties. Without a major gain in war fighting capabilities.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Will » 13 Nov 2012 17:38

shiv wrote:
Will wrote:While we are on the topic of choppers, instead of the IL 76, instead of retiring the Mi 26 we should just have them lift a Pinaka system and hover over the battlefield and fire rockets. I bet the MI 26 should have no probloem lifting a Tatra truck . Its flexibility you see. Use it on the ground when needed and in the air whenever needed.


Yes I agree. Neither the Mi 26 nor the Pinaka systems would be sitting ducks. At worst they would be flying, shootin' ducks.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Nice and grilled :lol:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Nov 2012 19:01

Singha wrote:seriously do folks see a role for AC130 style gunship using a modded AN32 "G" - 40mm cannon and a gatling gun.


not in any of the theatres we expect to be in. those ships made sense for anti VC ops in the jungle
our wars are fought in much denser air defense environments


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