Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 20 Dec 2012 06:19

Sagar G wrote:I think Indian requirements are itself so huge that we can maintain an MIC comfortably, what we see in the west is a result of greed rather than a necessity to maintain there MIC..


The MIC of the west grew out of the world wars, but the world wars were themselves an offshoot of industrialization and mass production techniques, steel and internal combustion engine tech. The US MIC is post WW2. The Russian MIC was post WW2. British and French MIC to, German and Japanese industry got converted from mainly MIC to mainly civil. Once wars among these nations became rare, their excess MIC production went to feeding other countries. China is a late entrant and its share of exports reveal that fact.

The USA and USSR keep their MICs going by massive arming and exports during the cold war. They now have to survive on exports alone and Russia is contracting. The US keeps its MIC alive by making wars. Waging war is an integral part of keeping the US MIC well oiled. The US alone is capable of supplying the entire world with arms. If you consider all the others the world, in the absence of major wars has an excess industrial capacity for arms and arms industries are desperately searching for exports. Arms are freely available to anyone who cares to buy them, provide they have money to keep the employees of the MIC nations employed.

Indian bureaucrats and technocrats seem to have recognized this and I have heard them say that "XYZ can be freely imported and it does not make sense to set up a production line". I had never understood the meaning of such statements until I saw the news about MoD telling HAL to forget about HTT 40 and concentrate on what is NOT available to us relatively freely and cheaply.

If something is available from more than one company in the world who are competing with each other, India will set up a competition and place huge orders knowing that the winning company will become rich and the losing company will have heartburn and will be ready to do whatever it takes to get other orders. India has done this for MRCA. combat helicopter, light helicopter, assault rifle, Howitzer, refuelling tanker, ab initio trainer and advanced trainer, engine for LCA, engine for Jaguar. If there are many companies ready to sell, India is ready to buy. When there is a single supplier company with a monopoly, the rules change.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Harshad » 20 Dec 2012 06:48

shiv wrote:
Vipul wrote:MoD rejects HAL's proposal to build basic trainer.


“Why should we pay HAL Rs 60 crore per basic trainer, when we can buy proven trainers from abroad for Rs 30 crore?” an MoD official told Business Standard.

“We would be willing to pay higher rates to build indigenous capability in strategic defence equipment. But can HAL argue that the capability to build basic trainers is strategically vital,” noted the official.



Like I said in another thread, I am gradually veering around to the conclusion that India is not planning to build a totally domestic MIC. An MIC means that we will have surplus military manufacturing industries and we will either have to make war to keep them in work, or export to nations who will make war. The latter is getting really difficult. I suspect that Indian planners have reached the conclusion that since exporters are falling over themselves to sell and dropping prices to compete with the 50 centers who are eating away the cheapo markets, India is importing arms and equipment left right and center - like a 1980s couple returning from a visit to he Gulf loaded with gods from phoren. And to hell with sanctions. If X does not sell Y will always come drooling.

At least that is what things look like to me...

It won;t be long before China offers us arms.


There is a great MIC opportunity for Private and PSU in low cost high volume pruchase/ production.
Spare parts.
This is one area where Indian MIC can innovate, build and prosper.
We keep running equipment and machines that the OEM has discontinued production. The OEM component suppliers have either switched over to new components or gone out of business.

HAL etc imo would be keen to work with an Indian entity with tax filing than phony crooks from Hongkong and Macau.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_20292 » 20 Dec 2012 10:51

^^^ shiv, exactly.

No need to make a needless bugaboo about swaraj and not buying foreign maal. Buy, and replace when you can, and when its profitable to do so.

The IAF, might have been right about wanting the Mirage 2000 line whole from France. I wonder where it is right now?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby GeorgeWelch » 20 Dec 2012 13:10

mahadevbhu wrote:The IAF, might have been right about wanting the Mirage 2000 line whole from France. I wonder where it is right now?


in millions of razors

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_20292 » 20 Dec 2012 13:36

What a dumb thing to have happened then! Extraordinarily stupid of the IAF to not have obtained the Mirage 2000 series.

Mirage 2000 + delayed LCA line + Rafale (reduced orders) = one happy IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Will » 20 Dec 2012 17:34

For all those kicking up a fuss about HAL being denied permission to build a basic trainer. HAL has too much on its plate already and hasnt bought much to the table in way of innovation since its existence. Building capability to build a baisc trainer? Dont you think HAL has had a few decades to try and build up capability.

Think of the days of MTNL and BSNL where you had to wait for years for a phone connection and where you had to bribe the local linesman everytime your phone went down.In this instance of basic trainers it maybe an instance of buying them from the foreign market. But private players will come into the mix if just given the opportunity.For this to happen HAL's monopoly has to be broken. Sorry to say but putting your faith in a PSU wont get you anywhere.The culture and mentality that exists in PSU's is what that just dosent work. We need Airtel's/Reliance/Vodafone/Idea in the aerospace area which could be Reloiance/Mahindra/Tata or anyone ;). Anyone wanting to stick to MTNL and BSNL in this day and age must be off their rocker or working for MTNL or BSNL. :evil:

Dangers of a private MIC are a different thing. But speaking of MIC's globally, besides the US of A which other country likes to get into conflicts? Britain and France get dragged in by Uncle SAM. Think the fear of a private MIC dosent have much of a basis in the Indian context. India is not going to start a war with its two nuclear armed neighbours nor is the private industry going to push for one where there is a chance that their own headquarters and industrial base can be wipped out through a nuclear strike.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sagar G » 20 Dec 2012 22:50

shiv wrote:The MIC of the west grew .........


Waging wars is not a good idea to keep one's MIC going how long do you think America can keep on doing that, a decade, two ??? Then what ?? One day Americans themselves will become tired of this constant war waging or there will be a situation where waging war doesn't remain an option. If we keep ourselves dependent on such nations for our military needs then we keep our interests hostage to there whims and fancies. With such a huge loophole how can we even dream of becoming a super power or power of any sorts ???

Buying arms has been relatively easy for India but see what the price we have had to pay in the terms of foreign policies, Indian interests. If India wants to have any kind of say in the world politics then it has to develop a strong MIC, by keeping importing our military needs we are not going to earn anybody's respect or even be able to respect ourselves. Developing an MIC not only helps the military but it helps the civilian sector as well many of the military technologies have found there way into our homes so it not like the technologies developed are exclusively for military use only, yeah some of them are but a considerable part also finds it's use in civilian market. So by developing MIC we are not only making ourselves stronger but also helping our economy by creating jobs.

If Indian bureaucrats/netas had any kind of "strategic" thinking they would have set our research labs to create all the necessary tech which will bring us on par with the west long time back instead of doing a 30 cr.- 60 cr. analysis today. Lets say this analysis is right what is your opinion on why our products are coming out overpriced than the nation from which we are buying ??? Is it because our manufacturing is costly than the one in western countries ??? Or is it because we have to pay for the "strategic" techs required to make the thing function for which the nation possessing such tech is charging whatever they want and you can't say shit cause you don't possess it. If our baboons were such great strategic thinkers next to chanakya only, then why the hell all these years they weren't able to figure out all the strategic techs which we would require for our armed services ??? What is available to you might not be what you actually want then what do you do. Only option remains is to beg infront of the TFTA babas, do kiss ass maneuvers and hope that they deliver us what we want. Is this the great plan which will see India capable to stand on it's feet and have it's say without fear of anyone ??? These are some of the reasons why I am not buying the idea that our baboons have suddenly developed out of thin air "strategic" thinking capabilities.

There are many questions related to foreign techs which no one can answer cause we don't know anything about it or might have some knowledge but not the entire picture. The tech that one's own MIC creates does't come with such huge riders like these. You know what is in there, what are it's capabilities, what scope of improvement it has, what you will do with it in future etc. etc.

But even before starting we are ready for shutdown mode because of some absurd cost analysis.

shiv wrote:If there are many companies ready to sell, India is ready to buy. When there is a single supplier company with a monopoly, the rules change.


If India doesn't develop technologies then in many cases it will end up in a single vendor situation the rules of which are,
1. Be ready to give $$$ as much as asked for.
2. Kiss TFTA asses as and when wished by them.
3. Forget about getting any respect or foothold in international stage.
4. Be ready to exist as a poodle state/people.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Katare » 21 Dec 2012 02:48

HAL knows how to build a basic trainer since they are supplying the same for over 2 decades. Nothing to be gained by funding another low end project with an end product twice as costly. This is a good slap on the face of HAL who is becoming a blood sucking leach on the Indian defense budget. They have $4Billion in cash and 20 years to make an improved version as replacement for their own project (aka brahmos 2 and Arjun mk2)

We have no options but to go to HAL for major and strategic works but they should be made to compete for low end work at least. No more sweet heart deals, global indexing should be used as benchmark for cost+ models rather than just accept whatever the PSUs come-up with.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 21 Dec 2012 03:25

Katare Sahaab,

I have already expressed my disgust on HAL not having an ab-initio trainer ready by now many times. Ofcourse, this fiasco is not completely of HAL's making (read HTT-35 effort).

Having said that, I think this HTT-35 effort is of value. Our aero manufacturing industry is really nascent now. Asking them to make parts for strategic products of much higher complications straight away is going to be a non-starter. You can see what is happening with Tejas. The HTT-40 is a much easier project to get the industry off the ground. And hence it is worth the effort.

Besides, trainers are as important as any "strategic" product. What will we do when we have to buy the next batch, when the Pilatus trainers are about to be retired? Whenever we build our first trainer, they are going to be more expensive to build than serial produced ones! Oh! But this Babu, the IAF officer and the HAL manager would have all retired. Why should they care? In my opinion, we miss visionaries like Satish Dhawan, APJ A Kalam, AB Vajpayee, and Minister of Defence like George Fernandes.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2012 03:28

why not split HAL?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 21 Dec 2012 03:45

Into?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vivek_ahuja » 21 Dec 2012 03:46

I think he means split HAL into two entities both fighting each other for contracts. That will spur some competition and perhaps improve quality and provide drive towards meeting deadlines.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 21 Dec 2012 05:28

Will wrote:
<snip>
Think of the days of MTNL and BSNL where you had to wait for years for a phone connection and where you had to bribe the local linesman everytime your phone went down.In this instance of basic trainers it maybe an instance of buying them from the foreign market. But private players will come into the mix if just given the opportunity.For this to happen HAL's monopoly has to be broken. Sorry to say but putting your faith in a PSU wont get you anywhere.The culture and mentality that exists in PSU's is what that just dosent work. We need Airtel's/Reliance/Vodafone/Idea in the aerospace area which could be Reloiance/Mahindra/Tata or anyone ;). Anyone wanting to stick to MTNL and BSNL in this day and age must be off their rocker or working for MTNL or BSNL. :evil:

</snip>


I really love these PSU/Pvt sector analogies. For anyone interested in the BSNL/MTNL saga, please do a google search for how these companies were systematically brought down by the UPA govt. A company where the Union was in favor of an IPO to increase accountability and where a $100 bn IPO looked possible since the yearly profits were Rs 8000 crores. But enter Mr Raja who criminally denied approving BSNL's key tenders that would've added over 100 million new GSM connections. Now, UPA II has milked the company of all monetary reserves to finance the 3G auctions, which BSNL didn't want to even participate in! Result? BSNL is stuck with existing capacity and in three years from 2008 it moved from an annual profit of 8000 cr to a loss of 9000 crore.

As someone who's seen PSUs in operation very closely, I can tell you that a PSU will work if
1) Its internal work culture is right. (& this is a easier problem, see below)
2) The GOI isn't working to kill it.

ONGC turned around from a corrupt organization to a global company under one man who stood up to the GOI, Subir Raha. Similarly, IndianOil was a powerhouse on the BSE, with a top-5 market cap and a GREAT history of research and indigenisation (ask any IA/IAF/IN officer responsible for defence fuel supplies). Now its not even in top 20 market cap since its valuation is a fraction more than Cairn Energy, a one oil field wonder who's entire business model is based on milking the taxpayer through special benefits.

Now, who's to guarantee that a corrupt MoD won't kill (if its not doing so already) the DPSU's similarly? Splitting HAL won't solve a thing until the MoD is willing to clean house internally and embed uniformed officers inside of key decision making. Or we could all hope that the UPA will one day appoint another Subir Raha to HAL.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 21 Dec 2012 05:39

Sagar G wrote:
If Indian bureaucrats/netas had any kind of "strategic" thinking they would have set our research labs to create all the necessary tech which will bring us on par with the west long time back instead of doing a 30 cr.- 60 cr. analysis today. Lets say this analysis is right what is your opinion on why our products are coming out overpriced than the nation from which we are buying ??? Is it because our manufacturing is costly than the one in western countries ??? Or is it because we have to pay for the "strategic" techs required to make the thing function for which the nation possessing such tech is charging whatever they want and you can't say shit cause you don't possess it. If our baboons were such great strategic thinkers next to chanakya only, then why the hell all these years they weren't able to figure out all the strategic techs which we would require for our armed services ??? What is available to you might not be what you actually want then what do you do. Only option remains is to beg infront of the TFTA babas, do kiss ass maneuvers and hope that they deliver us what we want. Is this the great plan which will see India capable to stand on it's feet and have it's say without fear of anyone ??? These are some of the reasons why I am not buying the idea that our baboons have suddenly developed out of thin air "strategic" thinking capabilities.

:D Not sure how you can come up with words like "strategic thinking", It does not exist and it did not exist. But I would not blame babus. Every one of us is like that, you and me included. No need to blame someone else and say "I would have been different"

Asking why xyz did not happen in some bygone era is the same as "if my aunt had a dik she would have been my uncle."

As far as I am concerned our nation is interested in trade, profits and economy. Not war. As a good businessman and as an astute customer you will always look at the cheapest and best, with a good warranty period. Why buy inferior goods deliberately? Especially if they are more expensive. What is so special about arms that we need to buy local and inferior while every thing else (like perfumes, luxury cars and liquor) can be imported? A healthy "competitive" environment is not just about quality, It is about pric and delivery schedules as well no? We know that from our deep study of Indian technology. We need to cmpete. Not protect our industries as has been done no?

We want our armed forces to have the best. The best is available in the international market at cheaper prices than our local shoddiness. We are sitting on 300 billion reserves using out ITvity clout. Why not use it? If dollar falls tomorrow we may get screwed na? Jingoism is a thing of the past no?

In fact, instead of asking why XYZ was not done in the past, let us ask if it we will be regretting all these imports of latest and greatest in 20 years and why it is not a good idea to do that.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby gnair » 21 Dec 2012 10:00

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Tractor-AT-802/2021058/&sid=7103de3c96ac357b67fed6c8f9f6af5f
Just what the doctor ordered.... One common platform for training, scout, COIN ops, light assault, fire suppression, border security, NBC clean up. It is attainable. Design by NAL/ADA. System integration by HAL. Prototype testing and certification by CEMILAC/ TACDE. Transfer commercial production to industry,on a cost recovery basis. Industry mass produces it, and sells back to Armed Forces and exports to friendlies.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby krishnan » 21 Dec 2012 18:04

Image

Sagar G
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sagar G » 21 Dec 2012 19:26

shiv wrote: :D Not sure how you can come up with words like "strategic thinking", It does not exist and it did not exist. But I would not blame babus. Every one of us is like that, you and me included. No need to blame someone else and say "I would have been different"


I am not blaming anyone but I am also not ready to accept the BS thrown by MoD to justify scrapping indigenous projects on some flimsy excuse of cost.

shiv wrote:As far as I am concerned our nation is interested in trade, profits and economy. Not war. As a good businessman and as an astute customer you will always look at the cheapest and best, with a good warranty period. Why buy inferior goods deliberately? Especially if they are more expensive. What is so special about arms that we need to buy local and inferior while every thing else (like perfumes, luxury cars and liquor) can be imported? A healthy "competitive" environment is not just about quality, It is about pric and delivery schedules as well no? We know that from our deep study of Indian technology. We need to cmpete. Not protect our industries as has been done no?


MoD has to first allow the competition to happen instead of kissing TFTA arse at the drop of a hat.

shiv wrote:We want our armed forces to have the best. The best is available in the international market at cheaper prices than our local shoddiness. We are sitting on 300 billion reserves using out ITvity clout. Why not use it? If dollar falls tomorrow we may get screwed na? Jingoism is a thing of the past no?

In fact, instead of asking why XYZ was not done in the past, let us ask if it we will be regretting all these imports of latest and greatest in 20 years and why it is not a good idea to do that.


:lol: Never gonna happen the usual apologetic Indians will come along and derail any such attempt with the usual :(( :((

P.S. - I know garu what you are doing and I understand,share your anger but will play along.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 21 Dec 2012 20:42

I think all R&D, production, engineering etc is haram. Only foreign maal in foreign bank given by foreign companies to desi babus/politicians is good.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 21 Dec 2012 20:48

vic wrote:I think all R&D, production, engineering etc is haram. Only foreign maal in foreign bank given by foreign companies to desi babus/politicians is good.


It is better than interminably delayed Indian stuff that does not meet the deadlines which we love so much. LCA= "Latest Confusion in Aeronautics" and "Late Combat Aircraft" and "Khadi Gramodyog" are all expressions coined in Idnia, some by Air Force officers, retired and serving. After all I drive an imported car every day. Why should I ask our air force to use Khadi? Give them the best And on time. Import. What are we going to do with 300 billion dollars otherwise?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Will » 21 Dec 2012 21:44

I really love these PSU/Pvt sector analogies. For anyone interested in the BSNL/MTNL saga, please do a google search for how these companies were systematically brought down by the UPA govt. A company where the Union was in favor of an IPO to increase accountability and where a $100 bn IPO looked possible since the yearly profits were Rs 8000 crores. But enter Mr Raja who criminally denied approving BSNL's key tenders that would've added over 100 million new GSM connections. Now, UPA II has milked the company of all monetary reserves to finance the 3G auctions, which BSNL didn't want to even participate in! Result? BSNL is stuck with existing capacity and in three years from 2008 it moved from an annual profit of 8000 cr to a loss of 9000 crore.
.


UPA was now. What about the preceding decades that they have been in existance. Does anyone remember the days where everything was PSU controlled. People once they get jobs in PSU's think its their God given right. They are not accountable to the public. I dont think anyone can even be sacked in a PSU . I know people who work in PSU's where they just turn up to sign the muster and then disappear. They get their salary at the end of the month. Laziness and inefficency has become ingrained in the culture of PSU's . Take the example of Mazgaon Docks. Working one shift in this day an age? No wonder it takes a decade and a half to build a ship!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_22539 » 21 Dec 2012 21:49

^^Doc Ji's pisko experiments are in full swing :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Will » 21 Dec 2012 21:58

Doc ji didnt do a bad job with the economy in the 90's. He needs to do the same with defence PSU's . :evil:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Harshad » 22 Dec 2012 03:30

shiv wrote:
vic wrote:I think all R&D, production, engineering etc is haram. Only foreign maal in foreign bank given by foreign companies to desi babus/politicians is good.


It is better than interminably delayed Indian stuff that does not meet the deadlines which we love so much. LCA= "Latest Confusion in Aeronautics" and "Late Combat Aircraft" and "Khadi Gramodyog" are all expressions coined in Idnia, some by Air Force officers, retired and serving. After all I drive an imported car every day. Why should I ask our air force to use Khadi? Give them the best And on time. Import. What are we going to do with 300 billion dollars otherwise?


GOI and / or IAF never gave a written guarantee that LCA will be accepted
1. As is by certain date
2. Regardless of performance
3. Regardless of price

All projects undertaken are based on a probability that the product may succeed.It also means that the probability of failure exists.

If a project fails declare it a failure and move on
Make LCA 2
Make kites for Sankranti
End life
It would make a great bar conversation to talk why LCA failed.

IAF can not give poor excuses like delays and engine not available. They have to keep training else they lose credibility.

We (just like the Chinese) can not accept failures.

You need to open a Fail thread. Enumerate all failed Indian projects. Know why they failed. Failing is good.

Not making any attempt is the worst thing.

Even for MoD and the Forces: Making bad decisions is good. No guarantee that Pilatus wont shut down shop tomorrow.
Making no decisions is the killer.

HAL should have put their own money in making a prototype and flying it to Delhi for demo. If they had the killer instinct, they would have gone for the
jugular, matched the price and snatched the 75 unit job from Pilatus.

In the end we (meaning I) will blame HAL, then blame MoD, then blame IAF and come back full circle.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Harshad » 22 Dec 2012 03:58

Will wrote:
UPA was now. What about the preceding decades that they have been in existance. Does anyone remember the days where everything was PSU controlled. People once they get jobs in PSU's think its their God given right. They are not accountable to the public. I dont think anyone can even be sacked in a PSU . I know people who work in PSU's where they just turn up to sign the muster and then disappear. They get their salary at the end of the month. Laziness and inefficency has become ingrained in the culture of PSU's . Take the example of Mazgaon Docks. Working one shift in this day an age? No wonder it takes a decade and a half to build a ship!


:rotfl:
PSU units are accountable. Read CAG reports.

Employees can be dismissed as a result of disciplinary action. There are procedures for that. The employee may seek legal remedy and in such cases injuction may be granted. Salary may be paid in full or a percentage of it in such case till the court reaches verdict.

MDL knows better how to conduct its operation. If they need more than one shift, they will do the needful. If you know for sure that delays in ship building are only due to MDL staff being away from work, please let us know.

If you also have some experience in welding steel or being in a welding shop for more than 3 hours please let us know.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 22 Dec 2012 07:41

Harshad wrote:
You need to open a Fail thread. Enumerate all failed Indian projects. Know why they failed. Failing is good.



Well I think we have been through this before. Speaking of "fail" the BAC TSR 2 and the Canadian Avro Arrow seemed to be state of the art back in the 60s or whenever. Both were cancelled and since then the ability of British and Canadian industry to produce the latest and best in aircraft has never reached "world class" (Actually I dislike the term world class because it is empty rhetoric, but I use it nevertheless)

The US and USSR produced some experimental monsters that were canceled or failed but they just kept on going and produced stuff that are now usable in many countries. Whenever the USSR produced a new design, they never lamented that it was not good enough but stated that it would do some job or other. The US never produced anythng that they failed to describe as "world class" or "best in the world" even if it wasn't. They kept on going.

But all the half assed designs that were acceptable in the cold war, allowing Canada and Britain to try their hand are no longer acceptable. It is too costly to keep experimenting. Aircraft designs that lasted barely a decade in the 50s and 60s are now lasting 50 years. Designs get "mid life" upgrades when they are 30 years old - so mature designs are more valuable than fancy experiments other than for pure research. Money and time must be dedicated to "pure research" of designs that are not really destined to go into production. Bean counters should not see this as a waste of money. It should be seen as a learning process hat requires continued expenditure. bt should be termed research from the word go.

At no time must a valuable industry be closed down as wasteful if it is a strategic industry. Entire nations can develop thought processes that encourage or discourage certain idea. India's zehniyat is not to make war or conquer territory. If we also keep telling ourselves that our efforts are useless and fruitless and keep harping on how many crores go down the drain, sooner or later, a young person who has heard this about Indian industry from when he was very young will grow up and reach a position of influence where he chops all programs as useless because Indian programs are all useless.

We have developed a mindset of believing that domestic is useless and a waste of money. That is the mindset that cancelled the HF 24 and killed Indian aviation development for 25 years. We will have to accept some waste of money on domestic experimentation even if those experiments are failures simply because the skills that are needed need constant practice so we need to pay for the infrastructure. But it is easier to accept fund wastage if we call it "research".

But at the same time I think it is right not to re invent the wheel. Even Pakistan is willing to sell us Mushak basic trainers. So when we have a HAL working on Su-30, Jaguar, Hawk, ALH, LCH, LCA and now MRCA, and deputing people for PAKFA and AMCA and struggling with the Sitara, what is the need to work on a HTT 40 that every Tom, Abdul and Hari is ready to sell us?

HAL has never had to please any shareholders. Heck for decades they could not even please the Air Force. They are a monopoly. They should concentrate on high tech production and maybe a separate research wing can be set up - or merge ADA with HAL. Production and support should be pukka. World class. Part of the problem is the political need to set up factories in areas where employment and education levels are low. Aviation is high tech business. Politics is the ability of an illiterate to be street smart. Being street smart does not translate to high tech and a politician who demands the setting up of a HAL branch in some way out place is not doing anyone a favor. As a nation we have been stung so hard by criticism accusing us of being elitist and casteist that we go out of our way to encourage mediocrity just to show that we do not discriminate. We select the most backward areas for the most high tech industries and ensure that no one wants to go and work in a god forsaken place unless he is desperate for the job.

I think the aviation industry in India is in a mess. HAL is a "navratna" - 9 jewels. an it has become one of the world's top 500 industries without having the words most efficient production line and without designing and producing very many world beating products. They have got there because of a captive market

But we are stuck with HAL. It is like Ajit's liquid oxygen. We can't live with it or without it. We can't get rid of it. We can only demand better standards of production and maintenance and support. And we must have a separate research wing that attracts the best and brightest and money should be thrown at them the way money is thrown at the 5 aircraft a year production lines of HAL.

Next Aero India please look at the quality of products of HAL, BEL, OFB and even the Aviation Base repair depots and compare with the US, European and Israeli stalls. Ask hard questions and put the answers here. Ask about Trichy assault rifle. Ask about IJT, Ask about Saras. Ask about Tarang RWR. Ask about LCA LSP 6. What is happening? Forget Rafale and imported products. We will pay for them and get them. We can always get info about imported products on the internet. It is the Indian stuff that we need to look at. Show that we the public are concerned and are ready to ask hard questions.

Shoddy and dirty products are put on display because some of our PSUs are not expected to do anything more. And when a senior PSU officers/bureaucrat or politician is about to visit the stall - everyone is abuzz with excitement. I once saw a stall which had some old, used gear on display. I asked why they had such an ugly thing on display compared to the shiny products brought by foreign stalls, Of course I got no answer. The answer is they have a monopoly and are simply there because some bureaucrat is paying PSU funds for the company stall to fill exhibition space. If something looks stupid or ugly. Tell it like it is.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 22 Dec 2012 08:58

Latest report says during putin visit , other than super sukhoi 42 deal, india will ink a deal for 62 more mi17v helis.

No deal on tha pakfa collab as its still in air...methinks iaf is tending to full import of single seater with less localization in interest of timeline.

Also iaf is working on plans to upgrade the entire fleet of su30 to mlu, not just a subset.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby arun » 22 Dec 2012 15:10

X Posted from the “Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments” thread:

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF PASSIVE SURVEILLANCE AND ELINT SYSTEM

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Vipul » 23 Dec 2012 06:03

VVIP choppers billed at Rs 3,546 crore to ferry President, PM begin touchdown.

President Pranab Mukherjee, PM Manmohan Singh and other dignitaries have got another new plush and secure ride. Swanky, three-engine VVIP helicopters, with self-defence suites to guard against missiles, have quietly begun to touch down in India.

Defence ministry sources say the first of 12 AW-101 helicopters, contracted for Rs 3,546 crore in February, 2010, arrived at the Palam airbase this week. The second and the third will be delivered next week, with the rest coming by July, 2013.

The VVIPs may now travel in further style, having already got "desi" versions of US President's 'Air Force One' in the shape of three Boeing Business Jets (BBJs), but the helicopter deal has faced some turbulent weather in recent months.

This Indian contract with UK-based AgustaWestland, a unit of Italian major Finmeccanica, apparently figures among the ongoing investigation by Italian prosecutors into alleged financial malpractices occurring within Finmeccanica and its subsidiaries.

But defence minister AK Antony recently told Parliament while the government was "constantly pursuing" the matter, it had not ordered any formal inquiry in the "absence of any specific information" till now. (But of course!!!)

The new helicopters will replace the ageing Russian-origin Mi-8s and Mi-17s with IAF's elite Communication Squadron, which ferries around the President, PM and other VVIPs, at the Palam airbase.

The Indian AW-101 helicopters, eight in VVIP configuration and four in non-VVIP, are not as hi-tech as Barack Obama's 'Marine One', the call sign of the Marine Corps helicopter which ferries him.

But they do have robust self-defence systems like missile-approach warners, chaff and flare dispensers and directed infra-red electronic counter-measures to protect VVIPs on board. Another concern of the Special Protection Group, which provides proximate security to PM, was the helicopters have "a high tail boom" to allow cars to come right next to the rear exit staircase without "exposing" VVIPs to a threat from anyone in the vicinity.

Moreover, the "rugged" AW-101, with crash, damage-tolerant features and "a service ceiling" of 4.5-km, will ferry only 10 passengers in the VVIP configuration instead of the usual 40. Capable of night-flying with advanced avionics and navigational aids, the three engines provide better power and safety.

The AW-101 were pitted against the American Sikorsky's S-92 Superhawk during extensive field trials held in 2008, overseen by both IAF and SPG. The subsequent contract came after the Rs 727-crore deal for five mid-size Embraer 135BJ Legacy jets in September, 2003, and the Rs 937-crore contract for the three BBJs in October, 2005, with advanced self-protection suites to guard against missiles and other threats. While the Legacy jets replaced old HS-748 Avros with the Communication Squadron, the BBJs substituted the two 737-200 aircraft bought in 1983.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 23 Dec 2012 12:35

HTT-40 is a useless project. No nation ever developed it's aerospace industry from bottoms up approach. HAL is already producing jumbo jets & fifth gen flying saucers, so HTT is useless. Technology developed for HTT will be useless for UCAVs & small transport aircraft. We must dump HTT, IJT, LCA and directly develop 6th Gen AMCA or better still a star ship to fight the impending space invasion from Pluto.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vishvak » 23 Dec 2012 13:47

Anything deemed too basic for 6th Gen should atleast be opened up to others - enthusiasts, private industries, etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby wig » 24 Dec 2012 08:59

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20121224/edit.htm

Notwithstanding this, India and Russia have several major joint military programmes that include development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft, multi-role transport aircraft, BrahMos cruise missile and the SU-30 MKI programme. Besides, India has purchased/leased military hardware that includes T-90 tanks, Akula-II nuclear submarines, T-22 bombers, $900 million upgrade of MiG-29s, 80 Mi-17 helicopters and some IL-76 aircraft for the purpose of airborne warning and control system (AWACS). Indian pie in the global arms bazar

In the backdrop growing security challenges, both in the convectional as well as the sub-conventional domain, and the Indian military-industrial complex struggling in the doldrums, the import list of the armed forces is huge, running close to a hundred billion dollars. Despite being the world’s largest importer of military equipment, the procurement process is tedious and often bogged down in bureaucratic delays and allegations of corruption, leaving the services deficient of critical requirements.

Earlier this year, the government approved the 15-year Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan (LTIPP) that would form the basis of weapons purchase for 2012-2027. The LTIPP is compiled from the government’s assessment of current and emerging threat scenarios and the capabilities the armed forces should have. It identifies the types of weapons systems, ammunition, surveillance equipment, logistics measures and support paraphernalia that need to be procured. It also lists the capabilities and output that the Defence Research and Development Organisation and industry should develop.

The Indian armed forces are in the global market for acquiring combat aircraft, heavy and tactical transport aircraft, helicopter gunships, refueling aircraft, heavy-lift and light utility helicopters, artillery guns, submarines, recce and surveillance aircraft, helicopter-mounted early warning systems, battle tanks as well as small arms and personal equipment. In addition are a series of projects underway for the modernisation and upgrade of fighter aircraft in collaboration with foreign vendors.

With a large defence budget and ever growing needs, India makes for a lucrative market for military hardware and allied services, with scores of foreign companies setting up shop here. The offset policy mandated by teh government also offers opportunity for the Indian industry.


the artice is written by a Retired Air Marshal. there is a mention herein of T-22 bombers. is the worthy author referring to Tu 22?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby wig » 24 Dec 2012 09:02

New system to boost IAF air-defence vigil
To boost its air defence set-up and enhance situational awareness capabilities, the IAF is going in for the induction of a "passive surveillance and electronic intelligence system" (PSEIS). The PSEIS will supplement the conventional radar coverage.

The system will generate a three-dimensional "air-situation picture" by providing location and tracking of airborne, ground and marine targets, regardless of whether these emit radiations or not, a request for information issued by the IAF a few days ago states.

The system would be capable of detection, location, identification and tracking of active and passive targets within its area of coverage. It would comprise of a cluster of sensor stations all reporting their detections simultaneously to the master receiving and processing centre that will process information for detection of targets and formation of tracks.

Typically, one system would comprise three to six sensor stations each (situated around by 20-35 km away) linked to one master control station. It would be possible to network many such systems deployed in a particular sector to generate an overall picture of the sector at a single master station.

The PSEIS, though ground-based, would be fully mobile and have a short set-up time. The passive surveillance module would generate a comprehensive air-situation picture through reception and processing of reflections of other transmissions in the radio frequency spectrum, while the electronic intelligence module would intercept, process, analyse and report all types of radar transmissions.


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20121224/nation.htm#10

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Yogi_G » 24 Dec 2012 09:50

From time to time there will be this sudden info of backfires making their way into both the Indian and Chinese airforces. The latter I am not very sure because there is secrecy but the former, I have begun to ignore such info.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 24 Dec 2012 10:15

the "passive" thing smacks of some network grid to detect low RCS manned and unmanned platforms as some other countries are also trying to setup.
some wild eyed leftists even claim cellphone towers can be kitted up for such a job.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 24 Dec 2012 15:32

India buys from Russia more than 40 fighter jets and 70 helicopters

India and Russia signed two agreements in the sphere of military-technical cooperation, totaling about $ 2.9 billion.

In particular, the contract for the delivery to India of 71 Mi-17V-5 $ 1.3 billion, and the agreement for the supply of component kits for assembly production license 42 Su-30MKI fighters worth $ 1.6 billion.

In addition, the fields of the Russian-Indian summit agreement on a joint venture between the company "Helicopters of Russia" and the company "Elcom sistenz prayvit Ltd". Signed a memorandum of understanding between the "FarmEko" and Indian "Elder FarmasyutikalsF" as well as a strategic partnership agreement between JSC "NIS" and "TATA konsalding serisiz."

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Dec 2012 15:47

So SU-30 cost is same as the first Batch at USD 40 Million, where did the talk of USD 100 million go? So all this talk of SFC, AESA radar - mere speculation??

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Manish_Sharma » 24 Dec 2012 16:01

^^ Right.

This october link of Iexpress talked of 'Super Sukhois' :

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-set-to-buy-40-super-sukhoi-jets-for--3.5-bn/1010580

Super Sukhois to give India a generation leap
Published: Friday, Sep 23, 2011, 10:55 IST
By Hemanth CS | Place: Bangalore | Agency: DNA


India is poised to get fifth generation aircraft sooner than expected. While an Indo-Russian programme to develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft is already under way, Russia has agreed to provide India with an advanced version of the Sukhoi-30MKI, which boasts of fifth generation capabilities and stealth features.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Brando » 24 Dec 2012 17:06

wig wrote: the artice is written by a Retired Air Marshal. there is a mention herein of T-22 bombers. is the worthy author referring to Tu 22?


Some reports speculate that India leased / intended to lease Tu-22s from Russia as it was part of the package with the Admiral Goshkov and Akula submarine but India never showed any interest it seems.

http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=340249

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby A Sharma » 24 Dec 2012 17:42

HAL Signs Contract for 42 Su-30 Supersonic Fighters with Rosobornexport & MOD on the Eve of Russian President’s Visit to India

December 24, 2012: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed a contract for 42 numbers of Su-30 MKI frontline Fighter Aircraft with the Ministry of Defence and Russian firm Rosoboronexport in New Delhi today. “HAL’s total responsibility for this supersonic multirole aircraft has now gone up to 222. This will further boost our confidence and operations as we have already delivered 119 Su-30 aircraft to the Air Force. We will continue to contribute to the country’s defence preparedness”, says Dr. R. K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL. The deal was inked by Dr. Tyagi on behalf of HAL with the Ministry of Defence. Mr. S. Subramanyan, Managing Director of HAL’s MiG Complex signed the contract with Mr. A. A. Mikheev, Deputy General Director of Rosobornexport.

One hundred fifty seven Indian vendors are involved in providing 13,350 components of the aircraft while another 19,450 components are manufactured at HAL’s Nasik and Koraput Divisions, adds Dr. Tyagi.

The Su-30 MKI project provides solid platform to indigenous manufacturing and technical competence creating hundreds of direct and indirect jobs. HAL’s hand-holding with private entrepreneurs has also ensured creation of strong infrastructure and quality avionics products.

Su-30 MKI is a two-seater, highly manoeuvrable, supersonic, multirole aircraft for day and night operations in all weather conditions. The aircraft is fitted with two turbojet AL-31FP engines and is equipped with state-of-the-art avionics from Russian, Western and indigenous sources.

The project has enabled HAL to master niche technologies of aircraft building and absorb new technologies in manufacturing areas like machining, forming, welding, assembly, testing and aircraft system checks. The aircraft airframes are made at Nasik, engines at Koraput, accessories at Hyderabad (communication and navigation), hydraulic, pneumatic and fuel aggregates and instruments at Lucknow and avionic displays and INGPS at Korwa. Overhauling and repairs of Su-30 MKI have already commenced in the dedicated lines set up at Nasik.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Dec 2012 19:24

What is the IAF and INcombat fleet anyways

IN 2000

it was
Airforce
18 Su-30K, MK.
70 Mig-29
44 M-2000
66 Mig 23 BN
20 Mig 23 MF
8 MIg 25
25 Mig 21 Bison
170 Mig 21 Bis
100 Mig 21 FL/ M/MF
100 Jaguar IM/IS
120 Mig 27's

IN
16 Sea Harrier.

All told around 790 Fighters

Today we have

135 Jaguar IM/IS
66 Mig 29's
50 M-2000's
166 SU-30
120 Mig 21 Bison
40 Mig 27's

Around
IN
10 Sea Harriers
16 Mig 29's

Around 600 Air craft. Down by around 190 combat aircraft. If 160 Mig 21/ 27 are retired and 105 Su 30 , 25 LCA, 29 Mig 29 Navy and 50 Rafales are added by 2020, we still have a worrying situation.

This TSP has bought F-16 C/D, Used F-16 A MLU and JF-17's and CHinese have added J-10, J-11, SU 30 K etc.

Our combat edge which was there in Kargil with PAF having no BVR fighters in 2000 has been significantly blunted with TSP 70-80 BVR F-16's and JF-17s. Truly a worrying situation.

This has significantly embolded TSP - coupled with thier Nuke stockpile, they are pretty confident of being immune from an Indian attack as oppossed post Kargil when they were abit shaken .


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