Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

titash · Post by **titash** » 15 Feb 2013 05:15

Beautifully put Karan M !!!

I think the IAF (and for that matter the IA and IN) could really use a specialized PR branch that maintains a TFTA website and publishes "main khiladi baaki sab anaadi" style news day in and day out. I suggest staffing it with Lalchix from St. Xavier's et al.

Half the battle for your countryman's heart and confidence is won with PR. Ditto for your opponents fear, respect, and pathani-shivering!

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 15 Feb 2013 05:41

Karan Ji,
again thanks for the detailed insights .
Now your confident words have erased much of my doubts - though it didnt help initially that i didnt understand how "continuous training" worked in IAF context.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 15 Feb 2013 05:45

vivek_ahuja wrote: I on the other hand have long since lost patience on this type of comments.

Left to me, I would openly say what the dhoti-shiver ( )/Dhoti-flaunting ( ) person is wanting to hear: "Yes, the IAF is nowhere near the great Cheen. Now go away." OR "Yes, the PLAAF is made of J-7s onlee and even their nuts (also bolts) are falling apart. Now go away."

Makes for a much smaller discussion and then allows us to move to more relevant discussion topics.

JMT

-Vivek

Saar if you do that then what will happen to seekers like moi still yet to reach aero nirvana ?!

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 Feb 2013 05:59

Lilo wrote:Saar if you do that then what will happen to seekers like moi still yet to reach aero nirvana ?!

Don't get me wrong, I have no issues with going to great lengths to spread what little knowledge I might have and as part of a discussion, it is just fine.

But I worry more about the perception that we must start a conversation in order to satiate our fears about what Cheen and Pakiland is doing by finding its Indian equivalent.

So if your question was about Indian air-warfare training systems, Karan would probably have given the same answer he did above. On the other hand, if you were interested in the need/advantage that the PLAAF gets by running their new training exercises, I would be more than happy to add to that discussion.

But when a conversation starts with the PLAAF exercises and immediately deviates into why-we-don't-do-the-same etc is where my eyebrows go up in frustration.

Again, don't take it personally. And if you would like to learn about aero-nirvana, this forum is the right place and is filled with a lot of experienced members. But avoid going into the spiral of one-on-one comparisons as conversation starters.

-Vivek

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 15 Feb 2013 06:30

Vivek ji
no nothing personally taken from my side & my nag was in half jest, Ill keep your advice regarding the rest and again kudos to Karan ji for his patience, now that i scan the discussion it already filled up a page

arnabh · Post by **arnabh** » 15 Feb 2013 07:24

Migs over Kargil

http://indrus.in/articles/2013/01/16/mi ... 21659.html

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 Feb 2013 08:04

i could say we had a full mobilization for months during Parakaram and that was our best training in a long time

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Feb 2013 08:50

We - the Indian Air Force officers [ use your favourite translator]
Interview with P.Lall - known Indian Su-30MKI

maz · Post by **maz** » 15 Feb 2013 09:53

The IN phased out its HPT-32s many many years ago. Basic/ primary trg is done on IAF birds. Of course, MiG drivers train with the USN on both T-34 Mentor turboprops, then graduating to the Goshawk for their DLQs.

On a different note, the Super Tucano would have been a far better choice for the trainer as it can carry just about everything a F-16 carries. And its cheap to operate. Believe its about 5000 USd/ hour or thereabouts. Aslo very good in the cold weather. The number of Super Tucano operators keeps growing.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Feb 2013 10:41

Hello Maz,

IMO, combining training & combat roles, while good for smaller AFs like Nepal, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan et al, is not efficient for large AFs like India.

The aviation training requirements of defence forces of India is so huge that every airframe hour is needed for that.

In the last decade (2000-2010), IN experienced a lot of accidents, many of which were attributed to lack of training & experience of Captains in big ship handling, who often jumped from missile boats to frigates. The large number of OPVs will ensure captains gain experience in large ship handling before commanding high value assets like frigates & destroyers.

Similarly, after RN retired its diesel submarines, nuclear submarines accidents have risen because of their COs lack of experience.

Mistakes that should rightfully happen during training on less expensive assets end up during operations on high value assets.

I've always believed that training & experience is more important than the sophistication of gizmos.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 15 Feb 2013 10:43

X post from Su-30 MKI thread

Austin wrote:We - the Indian Air Force officers [ use your favourite translator]
Interview with P.Lall - known Indian Su-30MKI

I was looking up for P.Lall in google.. and stumbled upon another interesting character from IAF --- Retired Sq. Leader Steve P. Lall from IAF--- apparently an ace Mig-21 ... pilot...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdmarti ... /lightbox/

Squadron Leader Steve Lall or as we call him in India “Uncle Steve” joined the Indian Air Force along with my old back in 1966. Not only were they course mates, there were entry mates at the time of enlisting and also fought the 1971 war together.

Steve was a born pilot, he was amongst the first bunch of guys who took charge of the MiG 21 when our Air force got them and in no time he mastered that aircraft. Steve was a kick-ass pilot and was too good at what he did which was air combat maneuvering or “dog-fighting” during the days when air defence was a critical strategy. Steve always stood for what was right no matter which class, creed, stature, race and caste he backed.

While he had admirers, he too had a bunch of guys who despised him because he was good and they tried their best to find an opportunity to screw him. No one could touch Steve when it came to flying, so the only way to get him out of their way was to create situations which made life hard for him.

And with this, Steve turned into a rebel, stretching the law, defying rules and every time he broke a law, he made that a milestone as he went along.

Steve, sometime in 1974 got into a situation in which he was court martialed from the air force and was made to leave. While the Air Force lost an outstanding pilot, this changed him. He took over his old man’s property called the Jilling Estate which more or less is two whole mountains in the Himalayas’, married a mountain girl and called the hills his home ever since.

Steve over the years learnt and realized the meaning of life and that meant finding happiness, peace, solace and serenity in the little that he had and made that his world. The mountains made Steve a whole new man and made him realize what it meant to live. He took up biking, became a nature and wildlife conservationist and got into eco-tourism by subletting cottages in the estate to the adventurous.

Today Steve owns 6 bikes, selectively gives his place up in the hills on rent, bikes across the whole of India and derives happiness at every single step of the way, or hairpin turn on the mountains.

Steve and my old man were close and some of the stuff they did back in the old days I’d personally never ever think of trying even today.

Some of the wacked out stuff that Steve did back in the day were:

• Taking his dog Kanchi (a wire haired Dachund) up for a sortie in a Mig 21; he had Air Force Sergeant Unni make a special harness that strapped Kanchi to his G-suit and took her for 1 sortie below 10,000 ft and did a few high speed passes across the tower.

• After a binging session in the Air Force Mess and Club, Steve and a few folks decided to drive a steam roller back home and during the way, decided to say a quick ‘hello’ to the station commanding officer. Steve, while being an outstanding pilot, miscalculated the turn ability of the steam roller and flattened the commanding officers front gate, lawn and porch.

• Steve and my old man created a band in the air force and in the day, many a damsel swore that Steve looked like Tony Curtiss, my old man looked by Charles Bronson and another lad they had on the drums resembled Dean Martin. Steve was awesome with the Trumpet but being short-tempered, when he did not get the right note he wanted, he threw the German made trumpet on the floor and stamped it on the stage.

• The station Steve was posted in came out with a rule that dogs were to be leashed always at the station(!) so Steve to defy the rule, took Kanchi his dog, on top of his Harley Davidson he had, wore his swimming trunks and rode his bike straight into the swimming pool. That pretty much ended the rule.(!!).

If there’s anyone who at any age wants to learn and know the true meaning of life and that too with biking maintenance techniques thrown in, and aint that crazy in the mind to take up smoking weed at 35 or joining the sex oozing Osho Ashram, I recommend spending a week with Steve.

To know more about an outstanding human being called Steve Lall, visit http://www.jilling.net

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 15 Feb 2013 15:46

Karan M wrote:

The Chinese are at the walk stage of the crawl/walk/run system of aircombat. We are at the run stage. They too will get to the run stage, but by then, India will have learnt far more than these guys have. Which is what makes our international exercises important, as we are always looking for that one weak point or USP that can swing things, or a better process, or just to see whether our methods work consistently.

The RSAF is considered a proper well trained AF by the USAF. They now train with us routinely at KKD with their latest F16s and radars and SAMs.

snipped.

First of all, thanks for (yet another) series of good posts.

Some time earlier I was bringing up the point about letting the IAF have its fascination for importing planes. This was in respect to IAF giving the Indian DRDOs and HALs a hard time with respect to the LCA etc.

Again, the IAF , is clearly a specialist fighting air force, with good standards and practises. Seems like they do not want to be saddled with the burden of seeing lab prototypes into practise.

Thus, To expect a force specialized in training, maintaining and fighting, to accept uncooked products is (slightly) unfair.

This is not only faced by the IAF, but by all industries, who are reluctant to let their time (and in case of IAF/IA their lives ) be wasted by untested products. Alpha and Beta prototypes takes a huge amount of time to get to market. There is countless hours of testing, trying out in field, retesting, revalidating in order to get the product out to the market.

A chaiwallah I know has been intimately associated with three companies commercializing innovations and taking them from lab to market, and I can say that there is a Valley of Death that all products face, around the world. Labs get funding--from the govt. (NSF, DST grants). Commercial products get funded by orders and money advanced to them for the same.

But NO ONE FUNDS THE IN BETWEEN PERIOD, the alpha and beta stage testing between the prototypes and the final product. There is no "sale" here. Neither do labs fund them, nor does the customer.
This valley of death represents the uncertainty, the beta testing, the prototyping and the refining that occurs when this process is being undergone. I have full sympathy for both the Indian DPSUs as well as the F 35 team, who are getting all sorts of technolgies into the mainstream.

http://andrewhargadon.typepad.com/.a/6a ... 970b-popup

In the software and tech world, you have companies with other divisions , which are making money, spending on RnD to make newer products. A Samsung or an Apple will have significant amount of resources to do this.

In the startup space, you have angel investors, series A and B funding to see this through. And, approximately 95% of startups, despite being open to all commercial markets and all customers, fail. The venture capitalists are usually used to this, and they try to hit one home run, out of every 10 that they see sunken time and money, failing .

We do not have any "angel" investors or VCs or even a open commercial market in the case of the defence PSUs.

On top of that, they have only one customer, who is used to getting the worlds best; and low technology as compared to best in class peers worldwide.

Can the reader see, what sort of mountains the DPSUs face ?

There is no easy answer to these issues....the valley of death between lab and market has not yet been conquered, and there is billions of dollars lying at stake for people who can reliably work this problem out.

The reader needs to ask themselves; why is it that our LRDE BEL and other electronics based DPSUs are doing significantly better than the rest? Why do we always get good news about C3I improvements and not so much about the rest?

Software based improvments are easier to get done. And with the huge amount of civilian software talent that we have, the DPSUs also benefit from it.

Net net; one has to be prepared for all sorts of delays in all the aero projects that we take up...be it the LCA, the AMCA, UAVs, the Saras / MTA etc. because of lack of venture capital and risk taking ecosystems in India, the tendency to stick to the safe route in almost every field of technology and simply, the lack of science infrastructure.

Most defence projects take a lot from cutting edge science...in fact the DoD runs a lot of programs in the US which are open to receiving scientific funding proposals from research labs in universities. Lots of profs find DoD funding, AFRLabs funding, Army research labs funding, etc.

We have a long way to go, just to "catch up", let alone set the pace. International cooperation will mean that we will eventually get there, and we will usually have good technology.

IAF/IA/IN will continue to harbour a fascination for the top tech products. Its a bit like wanting Apple Iphones while having the technology to manufacture only on the level of Nokia 1100s in Chennai....and there is the additional factor of life and death.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 15 Feb 2013 17:52

Karan M wrote:To understand how the exercises bring value, these are the transcripts of two pilots Moose and Ragin who flew in Cope India the second one. Their posts were removed later but archived by then.

Quote:Ragins

As far as what is posted on the internet regarding news stories and who beat who, you can make your own decisions. I would venture to say that the stories of the outcome of the exercise were already written before we flew 10.5 hours across the South Pacific to get there. What really happened there? Both sides had set of notional missiles with notional ranges. Guns kills were based on aspect and range with no regard to stability of WEZ or tracking solutions. Both sides fought hard, but also had integrity for the debrief and no-one tried to skirt around the facts. Sometimes the IAF killed the Vipers and sometimes the we killed the IAF...but a lot of the operations were not designed as IAF vs USAF. Most were mixed configs on both sides.

We got some gun footage and so did they. They made some mistakes and so did we...that's what happens and you learn from it. But, throughout the entire exercise, there was not one safety incident. The USAF lost no fighter sorties due to maintenance the entire two weeks and the IAF only lost one. For two weeks of training, both sides got more out of their training than they probably would in two months.

Quote:Moose69

We started off on the first day with mixed formations doing fingertip flying, which was really cool. Next was some BFM, ACM, and Tactical intercepts. Then came the BVR Air Combat Tactics with us flying in mixed LFE formations with Su-30s, Mig 29s, Mig-27s, Mig-21 Bisons, and Mirage 2000s. The last phase was HVAA (High Value Asset) OCA and DCA. We did get into close combat with every jet they had and it was awesome... Their Sus and Migs really have a lot of power and it was impressive to see how they handled in BFM. The SU-30 was soooo easy to spot those because it makes the F-15 look like a Viper. One thing to note on the BFM strategies was that their pilots would do maneuvers that we had not really thought of before...I am not saying that we didn't know how to react to it, I just mean that when we saw them do a certain maneuver we would think "wow, I never thought of doing that before"....so it was good learning on both sides.

Quote:Moose69

Lets start with the Bison in WVR and BVR...thse are all on the unclass side of course. There were never any true 1v1 BFM against Bisons because, lets face it, it's an old airframe and can in no way turn with the Viper. There were, however, some TI to ACM with Fulcrums and Bisons together. Now keep in mind that we were fighting with fictitious weapons, and the Bison felt it had the best advantage to blow through a WVR engagement and "light the candle". On the LFE side, they did openly (because I was in an integrated "package" with them) stick with the floggers as strikers. I thought the fact that they would also do TI and 1v1 ACM with Fulcrums was interesting too.
Now the Fulcrum, I thought, has the most powerful engines as a ratio of aircraft size. Everytime one would take off it would do a slow climb at high AOA and then power out of it, a few times it looked as if it was going to stall at any moment...it was truely impressive to watch. The guys who had incentive rides in the fulcrum were impressived with it's power and maneuverability. It is a large aircraft and was not too difficult to spot in the air unless they were using haze or the sun to their advantage. Their engines tended to smoke significantly.

Quote:Moose69

As for BFM, we were all impressed with how the Fulcrum performed...very close to the viper.

Quote:Moose69

The Su-30 can perform very well, especially with an experienced pilot who knows his airplane. Their squadron commander was an outstanding pilot whom we all respect deeply. If the Su-30 ever gets into WVR without being spotted (you can see the guy a looong way off), then you are going to have your hands full.

Quote:Moose69

I am sure that they are impressed with the USAF F-16s but whether or not we were there to sell them Vipers is way above my pay-grade. As for the MKIs, they only did BFM for a few days and then split. The MKI is the pride of their fleet and the SU-30ks are eventually going away. There were only a couple of pilots that flew against them and from what I am told it handled nicely. I am not sure of what I can talk about in that area.

Quote:Moose69

The Mirages are great in BFM because they are hard to see. Their delta wings give them a good instant turn capabililty too. I would say that in a BVR arena it is essential to have the aircraft on your radar if you want to do anything...In the dogfight arena.....if you don't have visual on the aircraft then you have already lost.
I don't think I can get into details about radars but the Mirage seemed like a pretty nice jet in all arenas.

Quote:Moose69

As for flying hours, one of the Flanker pilots told me openly that he gets about 200 hours a year in the front seat...Their higher ranking dudes fly in the back seat and act as Mission Commanders.
I would feel comfortable against the MKI only in BVR...the thing has thrust vectoring for crying out loud

Having flow in mixed formations now with all of their jets i would say that they are very capable and probably the best air force in Asia. Some of their planes are old but the skill of the IAF pilots make them hold their own. I do think that the Viper holds up very well with most of them, however, because we are downright hard to see and our maneuverability is awesome. Getting slow with some of these jets is not advised.

Quote:Ragins

One question that I would like to address is that of the MiG-29 vs the Mirage. I had the priviledge to fly against the Fulcrum in ACM and the M2000 in BFM. I would say that the Fulcrum has the exclusive reign of power, but would not weight that in excess of the M2000's ability to point it's nose (which is quite impressive...trust me). However, we did not get the chance to fly with the MiG-29s in BVR combat. The M2000s could hold their own quite well (in combat as well as on the golf course). Once again, I think it is a good example of the real question being of pilot, techinique, and above all else reaction making the real difference.

Karan M sir, this post is incomprehensible.

1. What is WEZ?
2. whats mixed LFE formations?
3. Whats this light the candle thing about ..? can you translate that para about the Bisons?
4. How come the viper gets its clocked cleaned and holds its own with them at the same time?
5, Mirage 2000 can point its nose, paint the target with radar and take a shot...and M29 can turn and then point its nose and then do the same?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Feb 2013 18:27

Again, the IAF , is clearly a specialist fighting air force, with good standards and practises. Seems like they do not want to be saddled with the burden of seeing lab prototypes into practise.

Thus, To expect a force specialized in training, maintaining and fighting, to accept uncooked products is (slightly) unfair.

This is not only faced by the IAF, but by all industries, who are reluctant to let their time (and in case of IAF/IA their lives ) be wasted by untested products. Alpha and Beta prototypes takes a huge amount of time to get to market. There is countless hours of testing, trying out in field, retesting, revalidating in order to get the product out to the market.

I would think it is rather common among AFs to accept an "inferior" product and then help it mature. The question is how does one define "inferior". In some cases it literally means a rather raw product (MiG-29 of the IAF comes to mind) and in others one which the AF would prefer something a lot more mature (Rafale itself was in that predicament). And then we have war or war like situations where the products are pushed out way before even tests are conducted - a practice that would not be followed during peace time.

Furthermore, I would not bring in commercial products to compare with military products. Or better still Samsung commercial vs. Samsung defense. Two totally different animals - they are not even supposed to talk to each other.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Feb 2013 22:55

On the lines of what Karan M has posted - I remember reading an article about exercise between Rafale of French Navy and IN Sea Harriers. Well, the French Navy pilots were impressed with IN pilots in WVR Combat calling them amongst the best out there. The Sea Harriers of course, lost out in the BVR Segment as they had nothing to go against the Rafale guys.

BTW - an interesting snippets - Fulcrum drivers are taught from start to undertaken 1 versus 2 engagements. Go figure...

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 15 Feb 2013 23:42

Initially thought that for operating drones in the Af-Pak area we would need some sort of top cover by IAF and hence the no fly zone aspect came about, however after the Rudra, it seems its MAWS and survivability gear could be shared with the Rustom-2 so that it has some degree of protection against manpads and WVR/BVR missiles. Along with ECCM gear on the drone allowing it to avoid SAM sites it could operate behind enemy lines given its endurance of 24hrs.

Then the weapons, there is some criticism of the Helina being slightly heavy, but we could start off with two missile loadout akin to the Predator early in its career or it could carry more nos of air launched version of CLGM which was recently unveiled.

Hope they also integrate the Astra on the Rustom, while slaved to any of the IAF's airborne radars or fighters or Ship borne radars etc

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 16 Feb 2013 08:59

@mahadevbhu

1. WEZ - Weapons Engagement Zone
2. LFE - Large Force Exercise
3. Light the candle - not sure of this at all, but in american gangster slang it usually refers to making a kill

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 16 Feb 2013 10:25

^^^

someone needs to expand that language in that post.

it says a lot actually....just the language is too succinct for us laymen .

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Feb 2013 11:00

Manish_P wrote:@mahadevbhu

1. WEZ - Weapons Engagement Zone
2. LFE - Large Force Exercise
3. Light the candle - not sure of this at all, but in american gangster slang it usually refers to making a kill

Fire up the after-burner and get the hell out of engagement zone.

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 16 Feb 2013 12:05

Manish_P wrote:@mahadevbhu

1. WEZ - Weapons Engagement Zone
2. LFE - Large Force Exercise
3. Light the candle - not sure of this at all, but in american gangster slang it usually refers to making a kill

Yes sir, I think the same, want to quote an example.
Setting - Film 'Executive Decision'
When the hijacked 'Oceanic Airlines" flight is intercepted by the 'Tom Cats', as the last resort the flight leader banks a little and shows off his A'A missiles to the pilots and warns them in 'or else' style to follow him and land upon which the Chief pilot asks the co pilot 'what the hell are they doing?' The co pilot answers coolly 'They want to light us up', so 'lighting a candle' may be 'to take missile shots' in American aero community lingo.
Also, it was said during the first 'Cope India' exercises that the Americans were quite exasperated because the supposedly lowly mig 21 bison could take first shots(and possibly, not disengage and speed away on an after burner as has been suggested) on even F15s due to Indian tactics.
Regards.
Rajendra

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Feb 2013 12:13

You are very close. To light up the candle means to "engage".

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 16 Feb 2013 20:39

Basically;

We're good. Our training and systems are good, and on the right track.
Lets hope that the IAF keeps it that way, keep progressing on a daily basis.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Feb 2013 22:54

mahadevbhu wrote:IAF/IA/IN will continue to harbour a fascination for the top tech products. Its a bit like wanting Apple Iphones while having the technology to manufacture only on the level of Nokia 1100s.

Ideally, India would have the capacity to design and make its own iPhone equivalents but it does not. It would be acceptable if we could make even iPhone, Motorola, HTC or Samsung equivalents one generation removed but all we can manage today are the Nokias. Per me, the reason for this absolute disgrace is not the capabilities of India as a country but the sub-optimal and irrational use of our resources by a self-serving class of corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. Nowhere else on the planet do we see such a trail of failure and non-performance rewarded by a continued deluge of funding without accountability and coherrent reasoning.

There is probably no legitimate military in the world that faces as direct and imminent a threat to survival as the IAF/IA/IN. Unlike India, the US, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Russia, South Africa, Brazil, Argentina and Sweden do not face any threats and are not in danger of being attacked in the foreseeable future. So it is definitely not fascination that motivates the IAF/IA/INs want for systems that will give them a realistic chance to not just defend India against attack but ensure that the aggressors don't try again by inflicting enough pain and damage to begin with. If they couldn't afford iPhones, they would have no choice but to make do with Nokia 1100s and they have done so in the past with outstanding results. But since they can afford it, it would be the highest level of stupidity and dereliction of duty to not get the iPhones.

Yes there are bad apples, but implying and attributing questionable motives to the forces' acquisition of cutting edge weapons is not in our interests and must stop.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 16 Feb 2013 23:36

^^^

we are a democracy sir. Blaming babus is ultimately, something like a belief in astrology.

sure it may mean something. But net net. Having a belief in these x factors being responsible for ones failure makes one not take responsibility and thus, fail again.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 17 Feb 2013 02:47

mahadevbhu wrote:^^^

we are a democracy sir. Blaming babus is ultimately, something like a belief in astrology.

sure it may mean something. But net net. Having a belief in these x factors being responsible for ones failure makes one not take responsibility and thus, fail again.

You should read up on astrology. It is far more productive than calling India's urgent need to modernize quickly a "fascination for top tech products". There are no "X factors" here, just a black and white failure mainly on the part of our politicians, babus and PSUs. Being a "democracy" does not automatically mean we should swallow failure and corruption without question.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Feb 2013 05:32

watching some African news

Kenya has presidential debates

and our mumble singh speaks 10 minutes in a year

our democracy is overrated

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Feb 2013 12:26

If you see cnn and bcc esp they never report on any of the good things in africa. Always war, famine, aid.
Africa is war, famine and hunger plus wildlife for the western media. They want the continent in a constant state of chaos so their mining and forest cos can continue to prosper and aid bureaucracy is well fed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2013 13:38

Singha wrote:If you see cnn and bcc esp they never report on any of the good things in africa. Always war, famine, aid.
Africa is war, famine and hunger plus wildlife for the western media. They want the continent in a constant state of chaos so their mining and forest cos can continue to prosper and aid bureaucracy is well fed.

+ 1

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Feb 2013 22:39

indranilroy wrote:Does your electrician also do your plumbing? If not your first question is answered.

Of course, HALs money, facilities and technicians are 100% non-fungible. Any way I was using the Medium Lift Heli as a representative of HAL ignoring important and critical weapon systems while while it spends its resources on developing duplicates of systems such as the Light trainer and Light helicopter that have already been ordered from abroad.

The Medium Lift Heli as far as I could get is in project definition stage. HAL had done a lot of studies on its configuration. So, did the AF, Navy and the Army. They have very fundamental and opposing requirements. AF and Army's requirements are similar, but they want something which can carry load at high altitudes. Navy needs something which has higher haulage at sea level. AF/Army's requirement can be sufficed by a 10-12 Ton Heli. While NAvy's requirements can be handled efficiently by a 12-14T heli. To make a single helicopter to do all the above is a difficult ask. They are going to sit down and thrash this thing out. I don't know if there will be one helicopter or more. You and I will come to know of it soon. You should watch the talk by Grp. Capt. Unni Pillai at AEr India Seminar 2013.

The Medium Lift Helicopter is the most important strategically and by value of all helicopters. Logically HAL after completing the ALH should have stepped up and started work on this instead of the LUH. That it is still in "Project Definition stage" has got nothing to do with the Navy, Army or the Air Force having different requirements. And by the way the Navy has given out an RFP for 120 Medium lift helicopter for some 35,000 crore to fulfil its long term requirements. If this goes through then HAL wont have to bother about developing a naval version. The really cruel part is that HAL will be financially rewarded for its own delay because by default it will get to screw-driver assemble the foreign maal.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 02:25

what IAF base defence crews may see

of course we only had floggers not fencers - still

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXB5sWxArZo

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 02:27

Singha

this was on France24

to be fair BBC is a tad better - after seeing the documentary on child slaves uses in cocoa plantations - I have stopped chocolates from the Nestles etc

cNN is worthless

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Feb 2013 02:59

abhik wrote: The Medium Lift Helicopter is the most important strategically and by value of all helicopters. Logically HAL after completing the ALH should have stepped up and started work on this instead of the LUH. That it is still in "Project Definition stage" has got nothing to do with the Navy, Army or the Air Force having different requirements. And by the way the Navy has given out an RFP for 120 Medium lift helicopter for some 35,000 crore to fulfil its long term requirements. If this goes through then HAL wont have to bother about developing a naval version. The really cruel part is that HAL will be financially rewarded for its own delay because by default it will get to screw-driver assemble the foreign maal.

Sir, with all due respect,

1. There are tenders floated for upwards of 400 light helicopters. So I don't know how you categorize one higher than the other.
2. The Medium helo is in project definition stage because of good reasons. There are 3 users with conflicting requirements. Please watch the Q&A section of the talk before you blame them!

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 18 Feb 2013 09:28

Thanks a lot for this post Karan. It was really interesting to get a glimpse of BVR and WVR A2A tactics today.

Cheers
Aharam

Karan M wrote:To understand how the exercises bring value, these are the transcripts of two pilots Moose and Ragin who flew in Cope India the second one. Their posts were removed later but archived by then.

Quote:Ragins

As far as what is posted on the internet regarding news stories and who beat who, you can make your own decisions. I would venture to say that the stories of the outcome of the exercise were already written before we flew 10.5 hours across the South Pacific to get there. What really happened there? Both sides had set of notional missiles with notional ranges. Guns kills were based on aspect and range with no regard to stability of WEZ or tracking solutions. Both sides fought hard, but also had integrity for the debrief and no-one tried to skirt around the facts. Sometimes the IAF killed the Vipers and sometimes the we killed the IAF...but a lot of the operations were not designed as IAF vs USAF. Most were mixed configs on both sides.

We got some gun footage and so did they. They made some mistakes and so did we...that's what happens and you learn from it. But, throughout the entire exercise, there was not one safety incident. The USAF lost no fighter sorties due to maintenance the entire two weeks and the IAF only lost one. For two weeks of training, both sides got more out of their training than they probably would in two months.

Quote:Moose69

We started off on the first day with mixed formations doing fingertip flying, which was really cool. Next was some BFM, ACM, and Tactical intercepts. Then came the BVR Air Combat Tactics with us flying in mixed LFE formations with Su-30s, Mig 29s, Mig-27s, Mig-21 Bisons, and Mirage 2000s. The last phase was HVAA (High Value Asset) OCA and DCA. We did get into close combat with every jet they had and it was awesome... Their Sus and Migs really have a lot of power and it was impressive to see how they handled in BFM. The SU-30 was soooo easy to spot those because it makes the F-15 look like a Viper. One thing to note on the BFM strategies was that their pilots would do maneuvers that we had not really thought of before...I am not saying that we didn't know how to react to it, I just mean that when we saw them do a certain maneuver we would think "wow, I never thought of doing that before"....so it was good learning on both sides.

Quote:Moose69

Lets start with the Bison in WVR and BVR...thse are all on the unclass side of course. There were never any true 1v1 BFM against Bisons because, lets face it, it's an old airframe and can in no way turn with the Viper. There were, however, some TI to ACM with Fulcrums and Bisons together. Now keep in mind that we were fighting with fictitious weapons, and the Bison felt it had the best advantage to blow through a WVR engagement and "light the candle". On the LFE side, they did openly (because I was in an integrated "package" with them) stick with the floggers as strikers. I thought the fact that they would also do TI and 1v1 ACM with Fulcrums was interesting too.
Now the Fulcrum, I thought, has the most powerful engines as a ratio of aircraft size. Everytime one would take off it would do a slow climb at high AOA and then power out of it, a few times it looked as if it was going to stall at any moment...it was truely impressive to watch. The guys who had incentive rides in the fulcrum were impressived with it's power and maneuverability. It is a large aircraft and was not too difficult to spot in the air unless they were using haze or the sun to their advantage. Their engines tended to smoke significantly.

Quote:Moose69

As for BFM, we were all impressed with how the Fulcrum performed...very close to the viper.

Quote:Moose69

The Su-30 can perform very well, especially with an experienced pilot who knows his airplane. Their squadron commander was an outstanding pilot whom we all respect deeply. If the Su-30 ever gets into WVR without being spotted (you can see the guy a looong way off), then you are going to have your hands full.

Quote:Moose69

I am sure that they are impressed with the USAF F-16s but whether or not we were there to sell them Vipers is way above my pay-grade. As for the MKIs, they only did BFM for a few days and then split. The MKI is the pride of their fleet and the SU-30ks are eventually going away. There were only a couple of pilots that flew against them and from what I am told it handled nicely. I am not sure of what I can talk about in that area.

Quote:Moose69

The Mirages are great in BFM because they are hard to see. Their delta wings give them a good instant turn capabililty too. I would say that in a BVR arena it is essential to have the aircraft on your radar if you want to do anything...In the dogfight arena.....if you don't have visual on the aircraft then you have already lost.
I don't think I can get into details about radars but the Mirage seemed like a pretty nice jet in all arenas.

Quote:Moose69

As for flying hours, one of the Flanker pilots told me openly that he gets about 200 hours a year in the front seat...Their higher ranking dudes fly in the back seat and act as Mission Commanders.
I would feel comfortable against the MKI only in BVR...the thing has thrust vectoring for crying out loud

Having flow in mixed formations now with all of their jets i would say that they are very capable and probably the best air force in Asia. Some of their planes are old but the skill of the IAF pilots make them hold their own. I do think that the Viper holds up very well with most of them, however, because we are downright hard to see and our maneuverability is awesome. Getting slow with some of these jets is not advised.

Quote:Ragins

One question that I would like to address is that of the MiG-29 vs the Mirage. I had the priviledge to fly against the Fulcrum in ACM and the M2000 in BFM. I would say that the Fulcrum has the exclusive reign of power, but would not weight that in excess of the M2000's ability to point it's nose (which is quite impressive...trust me). However, we did not get the chance to fly with the MiG-29s in BVR combat. The M2000s could hold their own quite well (in combat as well as on the golf course). Once again, I think it is a good example of the real question being of pilot, techinique, and above all else reaction making the real difference.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 18 Feb 2013 10:35

^^^^

would appreciate it A LOT if you were to expand that post for us laymen please......?

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 18 Feb 2013 16:56

From livefist,

Exercise Iron Fist To Feature Tejas, LCH

Aimed at providing the nation the reassurance that the IAF will deliver whenever called upon, a demonstration of this magnitude is being carried out for the first time by day, dusk and night. Very few air forces in the world can achieve this feat.

Errr...wasnt the previous iteration of this similar in nature, that is evening dusk and night? All spaced half an hour in between onleee? So how is this the first time, DDMitivitis?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Feb 2013 22:09

Maybe they have increased the number of aircrafts participating and/or increased the complexity of the mission involved.. We really can't comment on the article till wwe have witnessed the show...

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Feb 2013 22:22

indranilroy wrote: 1. There are tenders floated for upwards of 400 light helicopters. So I don't know how you categorize one higher than the other.

Each Medium helicopter is about 4-5 times as expensive(ballpark figure) as a light one. So the naval RFP for 120 helicopters alone represents a value far greater than the total light helicopter requirement(which is less than 400, about half of which HAL plans to supply).

2. The Medium helo is in project definition stage because of good reasons. There are 3 users with conflicting requirements. Please watch the Q&A section of the talk before you blame them!

So you find it to be a perfectly reasonable excuse that HAL didn't move an inch on the medium helicopter because it was waiting for the Forces to finish doing Chai-Biskoot on its specifications for all these years. And on the other hand you support HAL developing the light trainer on its own even though the IAF and MoD has explicitly said that it doesn't want them. What exact specifications is it designing it to? Obviously not the IAF, it didn't give it any. Why this duplicity?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Feb 2013 23:38

abhik wrote: Each Medium helicopter is about 4-5 times as expensive(ballpark figure) as a light one. So the naval RFP for 120 helicopters alone represents a value far greater than the total light helicopter requirement(which is less than 400, about half of which HAL plans to supply).

At the same time it is much easier to design and build a LUH. It is basically a low hanging fruit after ALH. Why wouldn't you pluck it? It makes perfect business sense!

abhik wrote: So you find it to be a perfectly reasonable excuse that HAL didn't move an inch on the medium helicopter because it was waiting for the Forces to finish doing Chai-Biskoot on its specifications for all these years. And on the other hand you support HAL developing the light trainer on its own even though the IAF and MoD has explicitly said that it doesn't want them. What exact specifications is it designing it to? Obviously not the IAF, it didn't give it any. Why this duplicity?

That is what you think. I request you to watch the video in question. HAL had already done a detailed study and come up with preliminary design. But Navy went ahead with its own design. Actually in this case the IAF and IA consulted HAL. However, even then the requirements of IA and IAF are different from that of the HAL's specifications. Basically the problem is to make one heli which can do everything. It requires time to finalize the product.

In case of the basic trainer, this is not the case. The requirement is plain and simple. From the looks of things HAL is giving the project to young group to design, build and test. It is a good way to develop skills. You can't ask them to do a Medium helicopter first up when nobody in the country knows how to do it!

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 19 Feb 2013 06:08

RIL Jamnagar refinery on foreign UAV radar?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 19 Feb 2013 07:20

some speculation, there were attempts to use laser pointers illuminating cockpits of aircraft from ground which were banned by FAA in US, these lasers could be used for communication as well that cannot be intercepted unless the LOS path is blocked, since people are able to see the illumination of the object a light spectrum analyzer can detect the frequencies used. we can check for sats in LEO or other aircraft in the vicinity or LOS to Paki territory or even Indian territory signifying the other end of the communication and the timings of the sightings might matter too which give the type of the laser frequency or to avoid night illumination where it is easier to trace back to the source

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasers_and_aviation_safety

Laser event detectors/recorders that can sense a laser illumination and record information about the wavelength and power. This does not provide protection but does give information about an illumination which may be useful for later analysis or legal action.