Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8176
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 13 Mar 2013 05:00

Actually I have been thinking of the Sudarshan.

Wouldn't a good explanation be that the on-board computer is trying to correct the trajectory but the frequency of correction is not fast enough?

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby PratikDas » 13 Mar 2013 05:07

indranilroy wrote:Actually I have been thinking of the Sudarshan.

Wouldn't a good explanation be that the on-board computer is trying to correct the trajectory but the frequency of correction is not fast enough?

Thought along the same lines and posted on 20 Feb:
I wonder if the high-precision linear ball-lead-screw actuators (to move the control surface) can be moved fast enough to counter the roll. If not, some strakes should help. Newbie aero IQ says if it works for the IJT, it should work for the Sudarshan. :mrgreen:

It could be the processing capability of the computer or the rate of change supported by the precision actuator.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8176
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 13 Mar 2013 05:23

I don't think they would put strakes on them as that would increase the drag. They already have 4 big fins.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 13 Mar 2013 05:32

fanne wrote:That only shows even though Sudarshan launch was not perfect, it was not bad either. We can only improve from here.
Thanks,

Hey there must have been dozens of Sudarshan launches. There is a set of photos in the latest Vayu which looks perfect. I think we are overdoing analysis of that one video. Even a perfect launch is of no use unless it hits the target and we have no videos of that. Yet.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 712
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby mody » 13 Mar 2013 18:26

With regards to the upgrade of M2K, it is universally accepted that the cost of the upgrade, as given by the French is exorbitant.
There was also a parallel offer from Israel to upgrade the aircraft is almost half the price that the French are asking for.

I would say the upgrade should also be within the capabilities of ADA working with HAL and with assistance from Israel.
Short of an engine upgrade, the ADA with help from Israel should be able to upgrade the avionics, radar and weapons package for the M2K.

The radar can be the same 2032 based MMR that we have developed/developing for the LCA. Even the standalone 2032 radar has better performance as compared to the current RDM radar on the M2K. The MMR hybrid may not give the same performance as compared to the RBE-2 or the RDY that the French upgrade proposes, but should be a decent enough upgrade. Further development of the radar for the LCA-MKII can be used for some of the planes if available on time.

The weapons would be upgraded from Super 530D and Magic Matra-II to Derby and Python V. Both represent a very decent upgrade from current capability. Also the Derby offers comparable performance to the MICA, at much cheaper prices. The Python V is much better to anything the French can offer for short range AAM. Later the Astra can also be used with M2K, when ready. The use of Derby/Astra and Python V would also help in terms of inventory management. Air to ground weapons represent a smaller challenge, as the M2K can already use the Paveway-II and Sudarshan type of LGBs.

The glass cockpit, better avionics suite, HUD, HMS, IFF, inflight refueling probe etc. are all available from the LCA program and the also from Su30MKI program. ECCM and EW suite being developed for the LCA and that being used for the Su-30 can be used to arrive at the best options for the M2K upgrade.

In my opinion, we should seal up the contract for the Rafael and make sure all points are thoroughly covered, unlike the scorpene deal and then scrap the whole M2K upgrade deal. Ask ADA/HAL combine to work with the IAF for finalizing the upgrade package, based on current capabilities and then rope in the Israelis as consultants for the project.

Given the 10 year time frame that the French have asked for, I think the above should be imminently doable by ADA/HAL with help from Israel within the same time frame. The French upgrade would make sense only if the timeline for the upgrade to be finished was 2-3 years.
Will save the country a ton of money and will act as an excellent spin-off from the LCA program.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 13 Mar 2013 22:44

Last edited by NRao on 14 Mar 2013 00:03, edited 1 time in total.

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 850
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sankum » 13 Mar 2013 23:28


PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby PratikDas » 13 Mar 2013 23:42

Self deleted
Last edited by PratikDas on 14 Mar 2013 09:34, edited 1 time in total.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 14 Mar 2013 09:30

I wonder what is better ? Having 57 upgraded Mirages or 120 new LCA in the same cost and time line.

alexis
BRFite
Posts: 468
Joined: 13 Oct 2004 22:14
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby alexis » 14 Mar 2013 10:30

^^^
why wonder? 120 LCA is definitely better!
I hope we have both by 2019.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 14 Mar 2013 16:31

I mean that for the price of Mirage upgrade we can have 100+ LCA

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby fanne » 14 Mar 2013 17:13

Well a better way to compare Mirage upgrade is for the price of that, we could have had 51 non upgraded mirages and 51 SU30MKI. Then maybe go with in house or Isreal upgrade (that would have though voided the gurantee).
The only thing in favor of Mirages, irrespective of the spec (spec of 29 and 30mki looks very impressive, MKI is probably a better plane), it is the workhorse and the most reliable plane in IAF. Even in recent Iron Fist, MKI had issues but M2000 was spot on.
rgds,
fanne

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 14 Mar 2013 20:21

Or 57 non-upgraded Mirage 2000 plus 100 LCAs?


rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7730
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rohitvats » 15 Mar 2013 09:49



The character assassination continues apace to take the focus away from the main culprits...as usual, CBI and TOI form a nice PR combination for selective leaks and dissemination. For example, there is no mention of the fact about who initiated the process of stopping the selection of Eurocopter and widening the vendor base.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 15 Mar 2013 13:39

GLOBAL MILITARY FLEET 2013 via FlIGHT GLOBAL

Code: Select all

Country Active fleet Share
1 USA       13,940      27%
2 Russia      2,855       6%
3 China       2,731       5%
4 Japan        1,667      3%
5 India          1,591      3%
6 South Korea 1,451      3%
7 France         1,191      2%
8 Egypt          1,156      2%
9 Turkey         1,146      2%
10 UK             1,063      2%
Other              22,991 44%
TOTAL          51,782 100%


Code: Select all

COMBAT AIRCRAFT
Country Active fleet   Share
1 USA      2,851        18%
2 China    1,455         9%
3 Russia    1,372        9%
4 India       614         4%
5 North Korea 574      4%
6 Syria          480      3%
7 Egypt         457      3%
8 South Korea 430     3%
9 Pakistan      361     2%
10 Turkey       331    2%
Other           6,643 43%
TOTAL         15,568 100%


Code: Select all

SPECIAL MISSION
Country Active fleet      Share
1 USA      758              41%
2 Japan    164              9%
3 Russia     74              4%
4 India       61              3%
5 China       53             3%
6 Brazil       52             3%
7 UK          43              2%
8 Spain      42              2%
9 Indonesia  39            2%
10 Israel     34             2%
Other         538           29%
TOTAL        1,858        100%

nits
BRFite
Posts: 1003
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nits » 15 Mar 2013 14:08

^^ so China has 2 aircraft for every 1 aircraft of India :?:

Bala Vignesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2017
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Bala Vignesh » 15 Mar 2013 14:24

^^ most of them are the age old J7 and J8's, IIRC... But yes, the tally looks that way..

member_23370
BRFite
Posts: 1103
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23370 » 15 Mar 2013 21:43

Well the porki combat tally include mirage-III's and old F-7's.

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2358
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby VinodTK » 16 Mar 2013 06:25

Russia to Deliver First 10 Fighter Engines to India by April
19:48 15/03/2013 NIZHNY NOVGOROD, March 15 (RIA Novosti) - Russia’s Ufa-based engine maker will deliver the first 10 of 920 AL-31FP engines for the Su-30MKI Flanker-H to India before the end of March, the manufacturer said on Friday.

The contract with India, the largest one with a foreign client in post-Soviet history, was signed last October, and engine deliveries are to be completed by 2022.

Under a 2000 general contract for licensed manufacturing of 140 Su-30MKI air superiority fighters and AL-31FP engines, India had an option of buying an additional number of aircraft engines.

In 2007, the Indian Air Force ordered an additional 40 MKIs. As of January 2013, the IAF had 157 Su-30MKIs in service and it plans to have a fleet of 272.

The Ufa engine manufacturing association is Russia’s largest aircraft engine producer. It produces aircraft engines for Su and MiG family fighters and spare parts, as well as engines for automobiles, gas pumps and turbines, and provides maintenance and support services.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby arun » 16 Mar 2013 07:21



Cannot understand what the CBI is crowing about :roll: .

The IAF Press Release of Feb 14 on the AW-101 acquisition categorically states the flight ceiling requirement was indeed changed.

The IAF Press Release of Feb 14 on the AW-101 acquisition further appears to indicate that there was (Sound?) commercial logic for the reduction of flight ceiling requirement:

On November 19, 2003 a meeting was taken by Principal Secretary to PM on this subject. In the meeting, Principal Secretary observed that his main concern was that the framing of the mandatory requirements has led us effectively into a single vendor situation. It was also noted that PM and President have rarely made visits to places involving flying at an altitude beyond 4500 meters. In the meeting it was decided to make the mandatory requirement for operational altitude 4500 meters. The higher flying ceiling of 6000 meters, and a cabinet height of 1.8 meters could be made desirable operational requirements. It was observed that with these revisions, several helicopters which otherwise met all requirements but had been rejected due to the altitude restriction, would now come into the reckoning.



From here:

Acquisition of AW-101 Choppers for IAF: The Facts

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 16 Mar 2013 08:05

pandyan wrote:
vic saar - 5% of 120 LCA = 6 LCAs. 5 % of mirage upgrade = 125-250 million USD.

babus/netas would figure that it is better to pump quarter billion into the economy. :((


You bloody useless honest taxpayer, don't you know that the bribes are 10-20% in competitive contracts but for single vendor deals bribes go upto 50-80%. My personal guess is that Mirage deal is over-inflated by 50-75%.

Why would somebody upgrade 3 decade old machine for 87% of the inflated value of new machines. Will you upgrade your old computer for 87,000 when spanking new one is available for 100,000? Actually if you had issued a tender then new Computer may have been available for 75,000 but you upgraded your old one for 87,000, very suspicious is it not?


Compare :-

57 upgraded Mirage or 57 old Mirage + 120 New LCA
57 upgraded Mirage or 57 old Mirage + 60 brand New Su-30MKIs
57 upgraded Mirage or 57 Israeli upgraded Mirage + 60 LCA etc etc

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 16 Mar 2013 10:01

Imo unless they plan ro use the m2k until 2050 when it will be like a hawker hurricane today, its more roi to even buy half that number of mrca or su30 instead if they do not like desi maal.

If the iaf brass can stomach desi daal and roti, the super slow timeline of the upg until 2023 means there is ample time for the tejas mk2 to replace it instead...we know the mk2 is low risk and will work.

Must be huge political kickbacks in this deal. France is not helping us in any strategic area like cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, submarine nuclear or n weapons. Neither they are a big investor in india. They cry and dance over a few mrca offets. They are being paid a kings ransom for the scorpene..surely the most expensive non aip ssk in world history :lol:

Daal mein kuch kala hai.

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 16 Mar 2013 18:33

Instead of 57 upgraded Mirage, we could have had


57 old Mirage+57LCA+57Jaguar+57LCH for the same cost and in the same time frame.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2925
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby abhik » 16 Mar 2013 22:01

VinodTK wrote:Russia to Deliver First 10 Fighter Engines to India by April
19:48 15/03/2013 NIZHNY NOVGOROD, March 15 (RIA Novosti) - Russia’s Ufa-based engine maker will deliver the first 10 of 920 AL-31FP engines for the Su-30MKI Flanker-H to India before the end of March, the manufacturer said on Friday.

The contract with India, the largest one with a foreign client in post-Soviet history, was signed last October, and engine deliveries are to be completed by 2022.

Under a 2000 general contract for licensed manufacturing of 140 Su-30MKI air superiority fighters and AL-31FP engines, India had an option of buying an additional number of aircraft engines.

In 2007, the Indian Air Force ordered an additional 40 MKIs. As of January 2013, the IAF had 157 Su-30MKIs in service and it plans to have a fleet of 272.

The Ufa engine manufacturing association is Russia’s largest aircraft engine producer. It produces aircraft engines for Su and MiG family fighters and spare parts, as well as engines for automobiles, gas pumps and turbines, and provides maintenance and support services.

Err.. I thought the MKIs including the engins were 100% made in India from "raw materials".

krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby krishnan » 17 Mar 2013 07:15


Under a 2000 general contract for licensed manufacturing of 140 Su-30MKI air superiority fighters and AL-31FP engines, India had an option of buying an additional number of aircraft engines.

In 2007, the Indian Air Force ordered an additional 40 MKIs. As of January 2013, the IAF had 157 Su-30MKIs in service and it plans to have a fleet of 272.

krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby krishnan » 20 Mar 2013 20:27

i am not sure what going on, but i see a helo going around for the past 2-3 hrs, i am near tambaram AFB

Bala Vignesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2017
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Bala Vignesh » 21 Mar 2013 18:28

A chetak, krisnanji??? If so then its common for the chetaks to fly around the AFB perimeter for practice.. When i used to live there during my college days, it would usually consist of 2 choppers flying diametrically opposite to each other..

MN Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 393
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby MN Kumar » 21 Mar 2013 21:06

Saw a Mirage yesterday afternoon on a landing approach at HAL a/p with landing gear down. Suddenly pulled up, turned and went out of sight. Looked like an aborted landing. Might have come back later.


shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 22 Mar 2013 06:03


Brainless reporter/editor thinks that any picture of any aircraft is all the same. All are planes no? With this kind of mindset why do they even bother differentiate between India and everyone else? Why not simply say "Crashes in the world make world lose X squadrons a year?"

Here is the photo linked to that article. The power of the media lies in the hands of more half-wits than I care to name. The editorial staff must have congratulated themselves for finding the photo of a Swedish Gripen flying upside down with smoke generators on and thought that they have found the photo of a plane crashing.
Image

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby PratikDas » 22 Mar 2013 06:30

It is the Rafale, Shiv ji, from Aero India 2013 :mrgreen:
nits wrote:some more from Rediff

Image

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shiv » 22 Mar 2013 06:57

India is my country and all Indian media are my brothers and sisters :oops: :oops:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2013 09:26

you sound like a schoolkid unwillingly saying morning assembly prayer "our father in heaven, holy be thy name..." :D

member_23694
BRFite
Posts: 732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23694 » 22 Mar 2013 09:31

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and most of them keep ranting nonsense at times during prime time which though forces many to take knee jerk reaction for the short term but could lead to negative impact in the long term for the country. When will they understand that with power they need to behave more responsibly rather than focus on TRP

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5290
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 22 Mar 2013 16:50

Singha wrote:you sound like a schoolkid unwillingly saying morning assembly prayer "our father in heaven, holy be thy name..." :D


minor correction- "hallowed be thy name.." :wink:

Bala Vignesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2017
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Bala Vignesh » 22 Mar 2013 23:57

^^ LoL karthik mullah...

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 27 Mar 2013 01:03

Our own Airforce 1 from VIP Squad B737 ( BBJ ) , MAWS quite visible below nose

http://youtu.be/WatES9EPz30

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2358
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby VinodTK » 27 Mar 2013 04:42

India to get US-2 seaplanes, but for civilian use
Japan is arranging to approve the export of amphibious search and rescue aircraft for civilian use to India, a move aimed at skirting the nation’s arms-export ban, government sources said.

The move represents Japan’s efforts to promote exchanges with India — one of the region’s emerging powers — while putting pressure on China, another Asian power, as Beijing seeks to boost its military clout in regional waters.

It would be the first export of the US-2, which is manufactured by ShinMaywa Industries Ltd. and used by the Self-Defense Forces.

Tokyo plans to begin an internal process soon to convert the aircraft to civilian use, while entering negotiations with India, the sources said.

Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida was to hold talks with his Indian counterpart, Salman Khurshid, in Tokyo on Tuesday, and was expected to discuss the export and confirm plans to intensify bilateral security and defense cooperation.

For several years, India has conveyed its interest in acquiring the four-engine, turboprop seaplane, the sources said, adding that New Delhi said it wants the aircraft for search and rescue operations and antipiracy measures.

According to the Defense Ministry, the US-2 is the world’s only amphibious search and rescue aircraft capable of taking off and landing in rough seas with waves as high as 3 meters.

The aircraft is equipped with a device that distinguishes between friends and foes, and is covered with special armor, making it likely to be considered a weapon, the export of which is banned under the nation’s “three principles on arms exports.”

“When converting the US-2 into civilian use, we need to remove equipment” from the aircraft that would infringe on the export ban, a senior ministry official said.

member_23370
BRFite
Posts: 1103
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23370 » 27 Mar 2013 05:43

I fail to see the point of this useless purchase. India cannot trust someone whose entire defence lies in depending on US. India will not interfere in Japan-China spat. Be-200 would probably come cheaper and without any strings. At best there will be some info shared on chinese ships and subs.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests