Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Victor
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Victor » 07 Aug 2013 23:01

The argument that IAF should have chosen Ajeet trainer for their IJT/AJT is just more bilge water to mask/exonerate HAL's stellar record. If the Ajeet was even barely suitable as a trainer, they would have used it, even if only as a stop-gap. The fact that they did not tells us that the aircraft was totally unsuitable as a trainer. The IAF had a far better regard for HAL back then and it is very likely that they just kept quiet about it. If it had happened today the story would be quite different. In any case, they had asked for and been promised the Hawk. It was the babus who kept putting it off for decades. HAL for its part did not come up with a trainer of any kind and is still struggling to get the HJT-36 to pass muster. Perhaps the Sitara will be ready when we are flying 7th Gen fighters.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Ramu » 07 Aug 2013 23:42

Philip wrote:Tx AG for that insightful chronological explanation of the issue.Going by the "Gnat would've sufficed" yardstick (keep on making Ambys) when the IAF was acquiring 3-4gen fighters,we should've just kept on building Kirans instead of developing an LCA supersonic trainer,which should have great potential for exports!

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 084_1.html

PS:This is a 4 yr. old report!


Good Point! If I read it a week ago, I would have wondered why these so called 4 trainers still not manufactured. (PV5 flew at the end of 2009)

Is it MoD not releasing funds to HAL to setup shopfloor?
Is it HAL not giving enough attention while busy with assembling SU30s, Jaguars, AJTs etc?
Is it ADA not competent enough to get the operational clearance on time?

Recent Shukla's revelations about BTT tells me one thing clearly. If IAF has desired enough, those four 2-seater LCA would have been parked in Sulur during these 4 years. If IAF makes remarks about Fighter X/Trainer Y delays, may be thats what IAF desires - years and years of delay.

IAF has been able to acquire what it has desired consistently throughout its history. We just have to hope that whatever we are making is what IAF desires.

Rest of the discussion about specs, IOC I, II, III, ejection seats, AoA, etc are moot points to me.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 07 Aug 2013 23:45

So that is why IAF Chief lied about the cost of Pilatus for the benefit of Nation?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 08 Aug 2013 01:55

Ramu,I don't think that it is the IAF that is responsible for the lack of LCA trainers.The IAF had expected the LCA's first sqd. to have been based at Sulur in 2011.One report says that Sukhois are to be based there in the interim.The IAF is fully aboard (after the programme got serious) the LCA bandwagon,and has been for some time now.It has placed its trust in HAL by ordering 40 Mk-1s.From the 2009 report 12 LCA trainers are supposed to be in the pipeline,but from reports of the last year,HAL has yet to get its production line perfected,as LSPs are being "custom built"each supposedly differing in some way from the other like prototypes.The IN too has had its "leap of faith" and the NLCA was rolled out with much fanfare,but landing gear problems,weight,etc., has slowed down its IOC schedule.No major problem here with the delays,as our new carrier,the Gorky/Vik will only start arriving later this year and the MIG-29Ks are in fine fettle at Goa waiting to land on her.

However,the Achilles heel of the LCA project is still the engine,as MK-2 hasn't arrived yet with the 414.This bird being the definitive version of the LCA,which will determine its true future,must enter production seamlessly after the first 40 Mk-1s are manufactured,which should be at double the rate of the official initial rate of just 8 per year.At that speed,we would've built barely 40+ a doz. trainers by 2020,when Rafale production (before 2020) and FGFA production would've started .How enthusiastic the IAF will be by that time when our threat scenario would've markedly changed ,7 years from now,is a moot point.It is why I've stated that to keep the LCA programme relevant,an incremental development of a MK-3 with some degree of stealth tech is a logical way to keep our boffins busy,order books happy,until the definitive concept for the AMCA has been finalised and the enormous amount of 5th-gen tech required for all aspects and components of the aircraft are available indigenously to as great a degree as possible.

Here is the CAS's speech made at Sulur in Dec. 2012.It carries some interesting points,but his later statements made at Aero-India 2013 and others this year would give a fuller picture.

Addressing mediapersons after the presentation of the President’s Standard to 25 Squadron and 33 Squadron at the Air Force Station, Sulur, the CAS said a fair amount of expansion for both was on the anvil.

“Six C-130J Hercules transport aircraft, designed to carry out special operations during combat, have already been inducted, and a contract for six more will be inked soon. Also, ten C-17 aircraft from the U.S. are expected to arrive in India and will become part of the IAF in June 2013. Such strategic airlift capabilities will be multiplied manifold. Ten more C-17 aircraft will join the IAF as part of phase II,” the Air Chief Marshal said.

The IAF was also looking at replacing IL-76 in the next 10 or 15 years with upgraded versions of AN-32s and C-17s.

On the upgrading of helicopters, of the 80 medium-lift Mi-17 V5 helicopters, for which a pact has been inked, 42 had already been inducted. A fresh contract to procure 59 more helicopters was expected to be signed soon, he said. When these got inducted into the Air Force, they were expected to become the backbone medium-lift capability in the Northern and Eastern sectors, he added. “Negotiations are on to induct 22 Apache attack helicopters, and heavy-lift Chinook helicopters in Chandigarh and Jorhat,” the CAS said.

On shortage of 700 pilots, he said “It was being made good” and by the end of the XII Plan period there was a proposal to enhance training capabilities to enable induction of more than 220 pilots every six months, the stipulated intake now.

Regarding induction of new helicopters into the Army and the Navy, he said the medium-lift, heavy-lift and attack helicopter units would continue to remain with the IAF because “duplication is going to cost the Government a lot of money”.

For such future acquisitions, the Army would have to make a fresh case with the Government, he added.

Commenting on the delay of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) into the IAF and early retirement of some aircraft, the Air Chief said the present combat squadron strength of 34 would not reduce in the XII and XIII Plan period.

“LCA will be inducted in 2015 and more squadrons of Sukhoi-30MKI will be formed in the near future. Numbers may go down but capabilities will be multiplied 10 times,” the Air Chief Marshal said. The tests for fitting the air variant of BrahMos in the Sukhoi aircraft were under progress and would be ready by 2013.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 214859.ece

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Ramu » 08 Aug 2013 04:05

vic wrote:So that is why IAF Chief lied about the cost of Pilatus for the benefit of Nation?


This is the half a billion dollar question IAF needs to answer wrt Pilatus procurement.

Philip wrote:Ramu,I don't think that it is the IAF that is responsible for the lack of LCA trainers.The IAF had expected the LCA's first sqd. to have been based at Sulur in 2011.One report says that Sukhois are to be based there in the interim.The IAF is fully aboard (after the programme got serious) the LCA bandwagon,and has been for some time now.It has placed its trust in HAL by ordering 40 Mk-1s.


Philip sir, Specifically wrt LCA, I am not trying to blame the delay entirely on IAF. There were few technical issues as it would in any such projects. I also agree with you that IAF got serious lately (I guess after 2009-2010 when PV5 & LSP3 started flying). But it also means some bunch of guys worked on something for 20 years which IAF wasn't fully onboard. They must have done commendable job if they actually brought IAF fully onboard.

Its the same story with HTT40. HAL developed something which IAF wasn't interested. I am not saying LCA, HTT40 are world beating innovative products that are best in their class worldwide. But it is about how best they are to our national interest.

Recycling 2000 crores within our country - for a trainer - during peace time - while spending rest of its capex 20000 crores on foreign procurements - when rupee value is so low is definitely in my national interest.

Spending $500 million to a foreign country during our current financial situation cannot be justified as a cost effective option.

I don't have an issue with any procurement that has been already signed or paid for. But I wish IAF changed its mindset wrt its future projects/procurements. It is in our national interest.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby arijitkm » 08 Aug 2013 10:31

RUAG offers Dornier 228NG to India
The Swiss-German RUAG Aviation is offering India the modernised version of Dornier 228, which will help reduce HAL’s production costs by about $ 2million per aircraft.

The Dornier 228 NG (Next Generation), under production now by RUAG in Germany since 2009, is a more efficient aircraft than the model with India, and once an agreement is through between RUAG and HAL, then not only would there be savings in cash but RUAG will also give a commitment to buy at least six aircraft per year from HAL.

India’s HAL has been producing the existing model for several years after an agreement in mid-1980s for use by the Indian Air Force (IAF), Navy and Coast Guard, and the aircraft is only manufactured by it with global marketing rights. In fact, HAL supplies the aircraft’s entire airframe to RUAG in Germany where it is customised for onward sales to RUAG’s own customers, mainly for specified intelligence and surveillance roles.

A RUAG delegation was in India recently, and according to Thomas K Schilliger, Vice President Commercial Programmes, RUAG Aviation, if everything goes well, the production of this twin engine turboprop in India along with HAL could begin next year itself with delivery from 2015 onwards.

The NG version has newer Honeywell engines, TPE331-10 turboprops, which are more efficient than the Honeywell Garrett TPE-331-5-252D in the current Indian model, as also a modern glass cockpit which is used in all modern aircraft.

HAL, which has produced nearly 120 aircraft so far, describes the Dornier 228 it manufactures as a highly fuel-efficient, rugged, reliable, twin turbo-prop aircraft with advanced technologies in design and production and has been developed specifically to meet the manifold requirements of a variety of roles for various military, para-military and civil operators. Functional versatility with low operating costs makes HAL DO-228 adaptable for a wide variety of roles including Commuter, Air Taxi, Utility, Corporate, Aircrew Training, Maritime Surveillance, Search & Rescue and for Observation & Communication duties.

There is now a new requirement for 54 new Dornier aircraft and for the sake of commonality and costing, Dornier is looking for a tie-up for the Next Generation model with HAL. “It is to mutual advantage both in terms of technology and costs,” Schilliger told India Strategic recently.

RUAG wants to shift its Dornier 228NG production facility in Germany to India to cater to both the Indian as well as western customers by offering the aircraft manufactured by both the companies jointly in India.

RUAG however will customise the interiors by itself, depending upon whether an aircraft is needed for passenger or Intelligence role, he said.

Dornier 228 NG is described by RUAG as a versatile, reliable and cost efficient aircraft qualified for various special mission and regional air traffic.

The new Dornier has features like state-of-the-art avionics and communication systems, Universal UNS-1 digital glass cockpit with four 5x7in (13x18cm) Multifunction Displays (MFDs) featuring electronic instrument displays, better engines, longer range, better payload, new landing gear design and five-bladed propellers to name a few. EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) has certified it to fly for up to eight hours. The propellers are made of composite material in order to decrease the weight and noise of the aircraft.

RUAG sees a potential for some 300 Dornier 228 NGs internationally over the next 20 years.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 08 Aug 2013 12:41

22 fighter aircraft, including 10 MiG-21s, crashed since 2011
In the last three years, 22 fighter aircraft, including 10 MiG-21 planes, and 18 helicopters of the armed forces have crashed in which 49 people including 44 defence personnel were killed, Lok Sabha was informed today.

“From 2011-12 to 2012-13 and current year, 22 fighter aircraft including 10 MiG-21s and 18 helicopters of armed forces have crashed,” Defence Minister AK Antony said in a written reply in Lok Sabha.

In these accidents, apart from the loss of aircraft, 44 defence personnel and five civilians lost their lives, he said.

Replying to another query, the Defence Minister said the government has plans of operating the MiG-21 Bison aircraft till 2025.

“The upgraded version of MiG 21-Bis known as the Bison, is planned to be operational beyond 2019 up to 2025. MiG Bis is planned to be decommissioned in 2018 as originally scheduled,” Antony said.

On the investigation into the VIP chopper deal, he said the CBI had earlier frozen the accounts of former IAF chief SP Tyagi and his relatives.

“However, subsequently all the bank accounts have been de-frozen as per a court order, imposing certain conditions on the bank account holders,” he said.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_27444 » 08 Aug 2013 17:55

Somebody here said Gnat needs brute power from the pilot to control?
And without hydraulics?

It is hard to imagine a Jet fighter with out power steering!
Are we being told that surfaces are controlled by wire pulley rack and pinion
Like the Dakota's and other propeller air craft used to have twine or wire!

Kinda hard to believe

Also somebody said we publish papers
But still import engines like lycomingi
I am puzzled

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Victor » 08 Aug 2013 19:56

Amyrao wrote: somebody said we publish papers
But still import engines like lycomingi
I am puzzled

I'm puzzled too...by this statement of your's.

See some of us here are angry at the absurdity of this very thing and are dissing the DPSUs. That happens in a free country. You on the other hand are dissing India and Indians in blanket fashion. What's up with that?

Anyway, what you wrote should still help some of us make a point. You see, DRDO has designed and made a whole series of piston and rotary engines and display them along with impressive specifications at defense exhibitions. There is no need to display them but they do. There is a need to design weapons around them but they don't and we are still buying UAVs from Israel. We call this the "science project" problem of the DPSUs. [edit: we *may* be using a drdo engine on the Nishant UAV that was recently tested]. The defense space is closed to the private sector for all practical purposes, no matter what the sly politicians and bureaucrats say. It is a govt controlled racket where efficiency and productivity are not the top priority and it is apparent for all to see. We can't hide it.

Compare this to the Indian auto industry which was thrown open to full competition. Everyone was afraid that the industrialized countries will eat up our auto market but look what happened. India exports more cars than China. It has become a R&D destination for all the majors. Tata and Mahindra design and use their own engines and their SUVs are more popular than the foreign ones in India. Bharat Forge is the auto parts supplier of choice in the USA and elsewhere because they make forgings better, cheaper and faster than anybody else.

India can easily make world class guns, tanks and planes if the market is thrown open to competition. Unlike autos, the defense market is controlled and financed by the govt just like it is in every other country and it will have to obviously support qualified companies in a regulated market. How to do it is not a mystery--we just need to look at how it is done in countries that have a successful defense industry.

The next bus we will likely miss because of this criminal PSU policy is the coming explosion in civil air transport. Airports throughout India are going to be upgraded and within a decade or two there will be a need for hundreds of passenger jets. However, our neta-babu combine are already planning to corner this market too and it is very likely that we will end up buying these planes from Boeing, Airbus and Embraer.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Pranay » 08 Aug 2013 23:51

http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/ ... world&_r=0

Blog on NYTimes re: MIG 21's - BR gets a mention...

The MIG-21, which marked 50 years of service with the Indian Air Force in April this year, has been the backbone of the air force’s fleet. The aircraft has participated in every major conflict involving India since 1963, and still forms the bedrock for most of the air force’s operations.

Even as the MIG-21 stands tall in its performance for the Indian armed forces, its safety record, specifically in the past decade, has come under harsh criticism. A few months back, India’s defense minister, A.K. Antony, said that out of 29 crashes over the past three years in the Indian Air Force, 12 have been MIG-21 airframes. Two more MIG-21s have crashed since Mr. Antony put out those numbers.

Because of the MIG’s poor safety record, the aircraft has been given grim tags in the public sphere like the “Flying Coffin” and the “Widow Maker.” More than 170 Indian Air Force pilots have been killed in MIG-21 accidents since 1970. These accidents have also resulted in the deaths of 40 civilians.

The Indian Air Force has inducted more than 1,200 MIG variants in its fleet since 1963, when it was first used by the military. Currently, at least 252 MIG-21s are known to be operational in the air force, according to the Indian military enthusiast site Bharat Rakshak, including the latest upgraded version, the Bison.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 09 Aug 2013 09:50

IAF track record:-

Killed follow on of Marut for Jaguar DPSA
Killed HTT-35 and imported BTA
Killed Ajeet trainer off shoot and imported AJT-Hawk
Killed follow on of Ajeet for fighter (?)
Dragging its feet on LCA
Refusing to clear HTT-40
Refusing to clear CAT-AJT
Trying to kill Light Helo project
Dragging its feet on MLH and importing them
Delaying LCH due to over stringent specifications

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby pragnya » 09 Aug 2013 20:09

Austin,

how many upgraded AN 32 apart from '25' (as of feb 5, 2013) are delivered?? and how many Mig 29K/Kubs (apart from the first 16) delivered so far??

thanks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 10 Aug 2013 02:49

vic wrote:IAF track record:-

Killed follow on of Marut for Jaguar DPSA
Killed HTT-35 and imported BTA
Killed Ajeet trainer off shoot and imported AJT-Hawk
Killed follow on of Ajeet for fighter (?)
Dragging its feet on LCA
Refusing to clear HTT-40
Refusing to clear CAT-AJT
Trying to kill Light Helo project
Dragging its feet on MLH and importing them
Delaying LCH due to over stringent specifications


HAL track record:-

Failed with under powered Marut project
Failed with deadly HPT-32 project and killed many IAF pilots through inability to fix fuel line problems (basic engineering)
Killed many IAF test pilots while failing to produce a safe Ajeet trainer
Failed to produce LCA on time and killed many IAF pilots flying aged MiG-21s and forcing huge cost on country for imported fighter aircraft
Failed to solve HPT-32 fuel line problems and has no credibility on HTT-40 project, which will be minimum 10 years late, 2x promised price and 50% of promised capability going by previous track-record
Failed to produce IJT on time and has no credibility to produce AJT
Failing to meet user specifications on LCH that it must have willingly accepted when awarded the project?
Failing to set up a production line for LCA

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kakkaji » 10 Aug 2013 05:01

I think HAL should focus on delivering the IJT and the LCA right now, and not fight for the BTT. It can keep developing BTT in the background with its own funds but don't stop Pilatus at this time.

After it has delivered the IJT and it has served in the IAF for a few years, the IAF will be more willing to consider the BTT produced by HAL, which would hopefully be ready by then.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 10 Aug 2013 10:46

pragnya wrote:Austin,

how many upgraded AN 32 apart from '25' (as of feb 5, 2013) are delivered?? and how many Mig 29K/Kubs (apart from the first 16) delivered so far??

thanks.


AFAIK , On Mig-29 , 16 from 1st batch is delivered , 4 from second batch of 29 has been delivered and another 7 by 2013..so we can expect 27 Mig-29K by EOY.

On An-32 the latest update is http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news- ... ld&id=1712

“Of the 40 aircraft that are to be upgraded in Ukraine, 25 have already been modernized and passed to the customer, and five more are at the stage of technical acceptance and will be sent to India soon. A seventh batch of An-32s is to be transferred to the Indian side by the end of the year.An eighth batch arrived in Kyiv for modernization in mid-July, and its transfer to the customer is scheduled for early 2014,”

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 10 Aug 2013 11:47

Reg.RUUAG and the Dornier offer.We should pick it up.years ago we missed the boat when Fokker was up for sale.Look at how the Chinese are picking up important elements required for their self-reliance.AWST reports that they have picked up a German turbo-prop engine manufacturer,Thielert,whose diesel aero-engines are also good prospects for the wider African adnd Asian market where diesel is available.AVIC has also entered the US with sizeable investments in two US cos. prop aircraft and light jet manufacturers.Its fighter building arm has also been negotiating with Cessna .

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rohitvats » 10 Aug 2013 14:30

Link to written reply given by IAF to the allegations made by Ajai Shukla in his article on HTT-40.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/156957781/Procurement-of-Basic-Trainer-Aircraft-for-the-Iaf

Couple of points:

1. Blows the accusations made by AS to smithereens; no wonder AS called the reply 'verbose'. It counters all the points made by AS.

2. Shows how badly AS was played by powers-that-be - someone took him for a royal ride and fvcked him (and his reputation). It is obvious that facts and data points were presented to him in a manner so as to make IAF look like favoring a particular vendor.

3. Fact is, this is one of the incidences where IAF did not go about with 'BBC' mentality. The whole process started with 'Make' category but grounding of HPT-32 led to a situation of MOD allowing purchase of 75 'Buy' category products.

Question which remains - If HAL was to originally built the 106 of the balance trainers, why is the IAF not wanting them to develop the same now? My guess is that once the Pilatus came on board at a particular price point, HAL's offer became redundant. And very EXPENSIVE.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby chetak » 10 Aug 2013 14:59

Philip wrote:Reg.RUUAG and the Dornier offer.We should pick it up.years ago we missed the boat when Fokker was up for sale.Look at how the Chinese are picking up important elements required for their self-reliance.AWST reports that they have picked up a German turbo-prop engine manufacturer,Thielert,whose diesel aero-engines are also good prospects for the wider African adnd Asian market where diesel is available.AVIC has also entered the US with sizeable investments in two US cos. prop aircraft and light jet manufacturers.Its fighter building arm has also been negotiating with Cessna .


We missed the boat on the Dornier 328 also. The designs, plant and fixtures were available at a very very economical price at it was a fire sale situation for Dornier.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 10 Aug 2013 15:38

rohitvats wrote:Link to written reply given by IAF to the allegations made by Ajai Shukla in his article on HTT-40.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/156957781/Procurement-of-Basic-Trainer-Aircraft-for-the-Iaf


Many thanks. Makes for very informative reading. Ajai Shukla is a joke, and the IAF has truly exposed him for what he is.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby pragnya » 10 Aug 2013 19:29

Austin wrote:
pragnya wrote:Austin,

how many upgraded AN 32 apart from '25' (as of feb 5, 2013) are delivered?? and how many Mig 29K/Kubs (apart from the first 16) delivered so far??

thanks.


AFAIK , On Mig-29 , 16 from 1st batch is delivered , 4 from second batch of 29 has been delivered and another 7 by 2013..so we can expect 27 Mig-29K by EOY.

On An-32 the latest update is http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news- ... ld&id=1712

“Of the 40 aircraft that are to be upgraded in Ukraine, 25 have already been modernized and passed to the customer, and five more are at the stage of technical acceptance and will be sent to India soon. A seventh batch of An-32s is to be transferred to the Indian side by the end of the year.An eighth batch arrived in Kyiv for modernization in mid-July, and its transfer to the customer is scheduled for early 2014,”


thanks.

any idea what happened to the RFI issued by IAF (bypassing Russia) a couple of years back wrt IL 76 servicability and maintainence

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 10 Aug 2013 22:10

pragnya , No idea on where we stand on it today , if you come across any thing share with us too.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby svinayak » 10 Aug 2013 22:16

Pranay wrote:http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/08/the-trouble-with-indian-air-forces-mig-21-fighter-jets/?ref=world&_r=0

Blog on NYTimes re: MIG 21's - BR gets a mention...

The MIG-21, which marked 50 years of service with the Indian Air Force in April this year, has been the backbone of the air force’s fleet. The aircraft has participated in every major conflict involving India since 1963, and still forms the bedrock for most of the air force’s operations.

Even as the MIG-21 stands tall in its performance for the Indian armed forces, its safety record, specifically in the past decade, has come under harsh criticism. A few months back, India’s defense minister, A.K. Antony, said that out of 29 crashes over the past three years in the Indian Air Force, 12 have been MIG-21 airframes. Two more MIG-21s have crashed since Mr. Antony put out those numbers.

Because of the MIG’s poor safety record, the aircraft has been given grim tags in the public sphere like the “Flying Coffin” and the “Widow Maker.” More than 170 Indian Air Force pilots have been killed in MIG-21 accidents since 1970. These accidents have also resulted in the deaths of 40 civilians.

The Indian Air Force has inducted more than 1,200 MIG variants in its fleet since 1963, when it was first used by the military. Currently, at least 252 MIG-21s are known to be operational in the air force, according to the Indian military enthusiast site Bharat Rakshak, including the latest upgraded version, the Bison.


NYtimes is a trash and this news is not really for a mainstream media. THis is a specialized info in other media.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby aharam » 11 Aug 2013 06:13

Blog on NYTimes re: MIG 21's - BR gets a mention...

The MIG-21, which marked 50 years of service with the Indian Air Force in April this year, has been the backbone of the air force’s fleet. The aircraft has participated in every major conflict involving India since 1963, and still forms the bedrock for most of the air force’s operations.

Even as the MIG-21 stands tall in its performance for the Indian armed forces, its safety record, specifically in the past decade, has come under harsh criticism. A few months back, India’s defense minister, A.K. Antony, said that out of 29 crashes over the past three years in the Indian Air Force, 12 have been MIG-21 airframes. Two more MIG-21s have crashed since Mr. Antony put out those numbers.

Because of the MIG’s poor safety record, the aircraft has been given grim tags in the public sphere like the “Flying Coffin” and the “Widow Maker.” More than 170 Indian Air Force pilots have been killed in MIG-21 accidents since 1970. These accidents have also resulted in the deaths of 40 civilians.

The Indian Air Force has inducted more than 1,200 MIG variants in its fleet since 1963, when it was first used by the military. Currently, at least 252 MIG-21s are known to be operational in the air force, according to the Indian military enthusiast site Bharat Rakshak, including the latest upgraded version, the Bison.


The 21 is not a forgiving aircraft - it was built in a different era for a different war with very different loss dynamics where a classification such as interceptor still existed. Components age, airframes age, engines age and most importantly expectations change. A fighter ought to be as easy to fly as car is to drive - the question is a car of which era? By today's standards a p-51 Mustang is a death trap - again different era, different priorities.

The Mig 21s failure rate in the IAF is to one you can't answer simply with statistics. A plane that has served successfully for half a century is a bit more complicated.

Cheerios
Aharam

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby manjgu » 11 Aug 2013 08:01

@aharam.. rightly said... humans also age..i go to hospital more often now..sometimes its the knee, sometimes the eye. Doctor says take it easy pal..u r not the same as u were 40 years ago :-) time to bid adieu ...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Katare » 11 Aug 2013 08:48

That IAF reply is a joke and actually proves points made by AS. Blatant lies and now an effort to cover it up. Also AS did a great job on NDTV.

Great story and great job by AS! We need more of this to beat IA/IAF in to submission.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Pratyush » 11 Aug 2013 09:29

228 NG will be produced from the fusalag made by HAL. That being the case, why not use the saras.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Aditya G » 11 Aug 2013 10:24

Pratyush wrote:228 NG will be produced from the fusalag made by HAL. That being the case, why not use the saras.


Hmmm RUAG does not manufacture the fuselage even now. HAL exports it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby saps » 11 Aug 2013 11:44

aharam wrote:The 21 is not a forgiving aircraft - it was built in a different era for a different war with very different loss dynamics where a classification such as interceptor still existed. Components age, airframes age, engines age and most importantly expectations change. A fighter ought to be as easy to fly as car is to drive - the question is a car of which era? By today's standards a p-51 Mustang is a death trap - again different era, different priorities.

The Mig 21s failure rate in the IAF is to one you can't answer simply with statistics. A plane that has served successfully for half a century is a bit more complicated.


From my interactions with ppl in blue....

1. Its mostly the problems of trainees getting on the wrong side of approach curve, they mentioned region of reverse command. Exists only on delta like Mig-21, with no known recovery techniques from low level approach scenario. Meaning no recovery from inadvertent drop of speed, which could be for multitude of reasons.

2. Low frontal visibility especially in approach mode.

3. Extremely tricky handling characteristics in slow speed regime, meaning not care free.

4. Not so good engine response, especially during approach phase.

5. Lack of reliable / sophisticated on board recovery aids, meaning no VOR / ILS / Accurate landing aids thus adding onto the job of piloting, imagine all this with relative inexperience+lesser on the job hands on time and i guess slightest margin of error would be catastrophe.

Open to debate but guess most platform score above Mig-21 simply on some of these absolute basics, we are still not talking about weapons + radar or for that matter tactics.

Gurus, opinions.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2013 16:35

Indian AF Chief Slams Hindustan Aeronautics
Asks MoD to Skip Local Planes, Buy Swiss-made Trainers
NEW DELHI — In a scathing attack on India’s monopoly military aircraft manufacturer, the head of the Air Force has asked the Defence Ministry to drop plans to produce a homemade basic trainer and instead continue purchasing Swiss-made trainers.

In a detailed letter written to Defence Minister A.K. Antony last month, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne wrote that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) should instead focus on its delayed aircraft projects, especially intermediate jet trainers (IJTs), and not build the HTT-40 homemade basic trainer.

In making the case for further purchases of the Pilatus PC-7 Mark 2 trainers, Browne wrote that not only are the PC-7s cheaper than the HTT-40s, there is also no guarantee that HAL would adhere to the delivery schedule, given its poor track record.

“It is pertinent to mention that HAL routinely seeks approval for a small project completion period (Typically T0+60 months) without achieving it,” Browne wrote. T0+60 means the product will be delivered 60 months after signing the contract, which HAL fails to do.

In the case of the IJT, HAL claimed it would achieve the initial operational clearance (IOC) within 60 months of signing the contract. But even after 14 years, the probable date of completion for IOC is still unknown, Browne wrote.

Browne went on to write that the HAL promised IOC of the light combat helicopter by December 2010, yet now says it won’t happen until September 2014 and is expected to cost more. As for the light utility helicopter, IOC was to be February 2014, but the project is behind schedule and the engine contract has yet to be signed.

Browne contends that the Swiss trainer is not only cheaper but its delivery is guaranteed. Plus, he wrote that he prefers to use only one model of basic trainer, and building two would complicate issues relating to spares. India has already ordered 75 PC-7 trainers.

The HTT-40, meanwhile would cost nearly 62 percent more than the Swiss trainer after 2017 due to slippages in delivery of the homemade trainer.

The contract for 75 Swiss trainers contained an option for 37 more. Browns said he wants to exercise that option and then buy another 68 for a total of 180.

The Air Force set a requirement for that number of trainers in 2009 after a series of accidents forced the MoD to ground the HPT-32 basic trainer. A global tender was issued, which Pilatus won for the 75 trainers, with the balance to be built by HAL.

No official from HAL would give the exact delivery date of the HTT-40, but said the prototype would fly in three years. A senior HAL official said Browne’s cost estimates for the HTT-40 were too high.

Browne alleged that the basic trainer proposed by HAL has several imported components. “Instead of assembling together and integrating the BTA from foreign procured items, HAL needs to concentrate all its design & development efforts, energy and capabilities on expediting IOC for the IJT, urgently required to replace the Kiran trainer aircraft which is starting to retire this year.”

“The severe criticism of the Indian Air Force on HAL reflects the underlying dissatisfaction with the users on delay in homemade projects and inferior quality of work done by the state-owned aerospace monopoly company,” said Bhim Singh, retired Air Force wing commander, adding that the government must establish an aircraft manufacturer in the private sector.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby koti » 15 Aug 2013 21:29

PMO, former NSA, IAF chiefs...
What is disheartening is the alleged involvement of PMO in this.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby kmc_chacko » 15 Aug 2013 22:59

Austin wrote:Indian AF Chief Slams Hindustan Aeronautics
Asks MoD to Skip Local Planes, Buy Swiss-made Trainers
NEW DELHI — In a scathing attack on India’s monopoly military aircraft manufacturer, the head of the Air Force has asked the Defence Ministry to drop plans to produce a homemade basic trainer and instead continue purchasing Swiss-made trainers.

In a detailed letter written to Defence Minister A.K. Antony last month, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne wrote that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) should instead focus on its delayed aircraft projects, especially intermediate jet trainers (IJTs), and not build the HTT-40 homemade basic trainer.

In making the case for further purchases of the Pilatus PC-7 Mark 2 trainers, Browne wrote that not only are the PC-7s cheaper than the HTT-40s, there is also no guarantee that HAL would adhere to the delivery schedule, given its poor track record.

“It is pertinent to mention that HAL routinely seeks approval for a small project completion period (Typically T0+60 months) without achieving it,” Browne wrote. T0+60 means the product will be delivered 60 months after signing the contract, which HAL fails to do.

In the case of the IJT, HAL claimed it would achieve the initial operational clearance (IOC) within 60 months of signing the contract. But even after 14 years, the probable date of completion for IOC is still unknown, Browne wrote.

Browne went on to write that the HAL promised IOC of the light combat helicopter by December 2010, yet now says it won’t happen until September 2014 and is expected to cost more. As for the light utility helicopter, IOC was to be February 2014, but the project is behind schedule and the engine contract has yet to be signed.

Browne contends that the Swiss trainer is not only cheaper but its delivery is guaranteed. Plus, he wrote that he prefers to use only one model of basic trainer, and building two would complicate issues relating to spares. India has already ordered 75 PC-7 trainers.

The HTT-40, meanwhile would cost nearly 62 percent more than the Swiss trainer after 2017 due to slippages in delivery of the homemade trainer.

The contract for 75 Swiss trainers contained an option for 37 more. Browns said he wants to exercise that option and then buy another 68 for a total of 180.

The Air Force set a requirement for that number of trainers in 2009 after a series of accidents forced the MoD to ground the HPT-32 basic trainer. A global tender was issued, which Pilatus won for the 75 trainers, with the balance to be built by HAL.

No official from HAL would give the exact delivery date of the HTT-40, but said the prototype would fly in three years. A senior HAL official said Browne’s cost estimates for the HTT-40 were too high.

Browne alleged that the basic trainer proposed by HAL has several imported components. “Instead of assembling together and integrating the BTA from foreign procured items, HAL needs to concentrate all its design & development efforts, energy and capabilities on expediting IOC for the IJT, urgently required to replace the Kiran trainer aircraft which is starting to retire this year.”

“The severe criticism of the Indian Air Force on HAL reflects the underlying dissatisfaction with the users on delay in homemade projects and inferior quality of work done by the state-owned aerospace monopoly company,” said Bhim Singh, retired Air Force wing commander, adding that the government must establish an aircraft manufacturer in the private sector.


though i am not a supporter of importing defense items but these guys are creating situation where we are forced to buy from abroad.

Just look at Tejas, Arjun or sub projects they are getting delayed for more than 4-5 years by the time they will inducted they will normally become outdated.

What i suggest is to import in small quantity with keeping indigenous developments. Try to absorb or learn or develop better than imported technology by studying it and incorporate such to indigenous developments and increase the production speed so that they can catch up with standard requirements. If can't compete atleast put TD in front of them which in turn force IA, IN, IAF to look at local product rather than abroad.

if IAF, DRDO, HAL, MoD & other R&D are serious about Tejas then by now we should have had atleast 2 sq of Tejas flying in IAF color. This clearly shows mentality of IAF just look at USAF which is putting such a brave face to defend its most expensive projects.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby shyamd » 15 Aug 2013 23:49

The question is to use resources to develop indigenous capability that by the time it comes into fruition it will be outdated or do you spend resources on the latest product that gives you one over the enemy. You ask any member of the forces - they are likely to tell you they want the best product that gives them an advantage over the enemy.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Nihat » 15 Aug 2013 23:52

I guess what matters most and above all else is the nations defence preparedness, that cannot be sacrificed for the sake of indeginization . Be it trainers or combat aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 16 Aug 2013 01:03

they are likely to tell you they want the best product that gives them an advantage over the enemy


AND

is the nations defence preparedness


These and others have to happen at the same time, in a way that the difference between the them are narrowed until the indigenous products provide a sustainable advantage over the enemy.

As long as ALL parties see ALL these as part of the same coin they can make it happen. Each party now views itself as different and somehow superior to others. This will never work - now or in the future.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby ashish raval » 16 Aug 2013 02:14

I think lack of any level playing field in sarkari agencies is moving the talent miles away from government defense institutions. I think we should be moving massively to develop private defense companies which is the only way we can guarantee project delivery on time ! I dont know why government is poke nose in anything related to defense ! Why cant these be outsourced to private companies like US ? they can be regulated under government of India at higher level and let them compete.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 16 Aug 2013 02:28

ashish raval wrote:I think lack of any level playing field in sarkari agencies is moving the talent miles away from government defense institutions. I think we should be moving massively to develop private defense companies which is the only way we can guarantee project delivery on time ! I dont know why government is poke nose in anything related to defense ! Why cant these be outsourced to private companies like US ? they can be regulated under government of India at higher level and let them compete.


That is one way to look at it.

The other way is: "they can be regulated under government of India" could lead to the same situation.

WRT the US culturally they are very different - risk being the biggest one that I have noticed. Process, management, .......... a few others.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby kmc_chacko » 16 Aug 2013 08:49

shyamd wrote:The question is to use resources to develop indigenous capability that by the time it comes into fruition it will be outdated or do you spend resources on the latest product that gives you one over the enemy. You ask any member of the forces - they are likely to tell you they want the best product that gives them an advantage over the enemy.


just take a look at MRCA & Tejas project

planned in 2001 to make up the depleting forces and even in 2013 we are still thinking on it when we have depleted force and even we sign it in 2013 we can expect delivery from 2015 onwards.
Tejas first fly in 2001 to replace Mig-21 and even in 2013 after several delays & cost escalations LCA yet to replace Mig-21s. We are still not sure when will we see Tejas in IAF colour it may be in 2014 or 2015.

Tejas would have been in reality by now if we had brought full package of Mirage 2000s in 2001 and added some of those ingredients to our indigenous LCA curry then we could have built a successful Tejas by 2013 flying in IAF colour rather depending/counting on it. It would have solved IAF problem for depleting force and a parallel project Tejas would have done lot of good to IAF future.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby kmc_chacko » 16 Aug 2013 08:54

People may call it Turkey or Chicken but Locheed is forcing US Govt to fund its project and calling it as F-35s.

There are 61 F-35s already delivered, 81 completely built and others still being assembled at Lockheed's facility in Ft. Worth, Texas. The Pentagon estimated that retrofit costs for the first 90 aircraft will amount to $1.2 billion.


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-0 ... .htmlstory

We need HAL to concentrate on job like this otherwise please don't initiate any future projects.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 18 Aug 2013 20:17

Here's a bone to chew upon! What has happened to our high-alt recce capability after the MIG-25s were retired? There has been scant news about what has replaced them. True,we have "remote sensing" sats in orbit,but as far as we know,no dedicated spy sat like the US's KH series.This beggars the Q in respect to the sudden grave threat from the PRC.Some years ago there was a hint thatw e were looking at a Russian high-alt spy plane.Could it have possibly been this? Worth a serious look again.The pic in the link is most interesting with the double boom tail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myasishchev_M-55

M-17 Stratosphera

The design of the Chaika was adapted as a reconnaissance aircraft and emerged as the Myasishchev M-17 Stratosphera with a revised airframe, including straight tapered wings with 2° 30' anhedral (0° at 1g), shorter fuselage pod and unreheated Kolesov RD-36-51 turbojet engine. Flown for the first time on 26 May 1982 The M-17 prototype (regn CCCP 17401) was soon allocated the NATO reporting name Mystic-A[2] and was used for investigating the Ozone layer over Antarctica in 1992.

The M-17 also set a total of 12 FAI World Records, 5 of which still stand today.[3] On 28 March 1990, M-17 CCCP 17401 piloted by Vladimir V. Arkhipenko[4] set an altitude record of 21,830 m (71,620 ft) in class C-1i (Landplanes: take off weight 16 000 to 20 000 kg).[5]
M-55 Geophysica

The M-17 balloon-interceptor based model was terminated in 1987 and replaced by the M-17RN, later known as the M-55 Geophysica, which was dubbed by NATO Mystic-B.[2] First flown on 16 Aug 1988, the M-55 airframe was revised further with a longer fuselage pod housing two Soloviev D-30-10V un-reheated turbojet engines, shorter span wings and comprehensive sensor payload.

The M-55 set a total of 15 FAI World Records, all of which still stand today:[6] On 21 September 1993, an M-55 piloted by Victor Vasenkov from the 8th State R&D Institute of the Air Force named after V.P. Chkalov at Akhtubinsk reached a class record altitude of 21,360 m (70,080 ft) in class C-1j (Landplanes: take off weight 20,000 to 25,000 kilograms (44,000 to 55,000 lb)).[7]

A dual control version, the M-55UTS, was developed by adding a second cockpit behind the original, displacing some avionics and/or sensor payload.[1]

A number of M-55 Geophysica remain in service, performing in research roles; one M-55 took part in a study of the Arctic stratosphere in 1996–1997,[2] with Similar experiments performed in


Here's a great BR tribute to the MIG-25.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... oxbat.html

The MIGnificient Flying Machines
Shiv Aroor

then Air Chief Idris Latif — needed to gun up IAF’s virtually non-existent reconnaissance capability in the late 1970s to spy on Pakistan and China.

Latif, now leading a retired life in Hyderabad, pulled out his old albums three days ago to reminisce. Over the phone, he said, “I am saddened that our Foxbats will soon be gone, but they served an intensely useful purpose. When I was the IAF chief, I was shocked and delighted to learn that the Soviets were actually offering MiG-25 Foxbats to us in 1980. I phoned up Mrs (Indira) Gandhi and she told me to go ahead and make a decision. She was a brilliant leader to work with. The Foxbat was the best in the world and it was made available to us.”


Just look at the brilliance and leadership of Mrs.G.The air chief could just pick up the phone and speak to her.That's the way it should be and how a PM should keep the nation's security as the top priority.These days,a service chief will have to go through the desk clerk in the PMO and obtain his permission first!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby abhik » 18 Aug 2013 20:33

How relevant are these aircraft today? I'd suppose any BVR equipped fighters or decent SAM will be able to shoot them down.


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