Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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John
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby John » 04 Sep 2013 02:14

nachiket wrote:One could argue that you don't need an IJT with any modern Turboprop trainer including the PC-7. Hell, IAF rookies were jumping from the HJT-16 to the Mig-21U all these years. A jump from the PC-7 to the Hawk should be a cakewalk in comparison.

I been advocating that and few other major AFs are following that trend.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 04 Sep 2013 09:53

My guess is that the per hour operating cost of the IJT will be significantly lower than that of the Hawk AJT. Having the IJT in between the PC-7 MkII and Hawk means the syllabus on the Hawk can reduce both the simulator hours and the flight hours, conserving their airframe life and saving on operating and maintenance costs for the simulator and the Hawk.

But yes, if push comes to shove and the IJT fails to attain IOC within the new deadline, the chorus demanding that the IJT be scrapped will grow louder.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rohitvats » 04 Sep 2013 09:59

Kartik wrote:My guess is that the per hour operating cost of the IJT will be significantly lower than that of the Hawk AJT. Having the IJT in between the PC-7 MkII and Hawk means the syllabus on the Hawk can reduce both the simulator hours and the flight hours, conserving their airframe life and saving on operating and maintenance costs for the simulator and the Hawk.

But yes, if push comes to shove and the IJT fails to attain IOC within the new deadline, the chorus demanding that the IJT be scrapped will grow louder.


I think the IAF is already on record (or may be, one of those anonymous comments) about delay in IJT forcing IAF to abandon it all together and ask for PC-7Mk2 for next stage as well. IIRC, the retirement date for Kiran MkII is approaching and IAF will need to take decision on this aspect in time to prevent another AJT limbo!


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 04 Sep 2013 10:48

Start your own blog!!!!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sum » 04 Sep 2013 10:51

Extraordinary story of PoWs escaping from TSP in 1971. Read it all:
An Indian Prisoner of War escape story

On December 10, 1971, anti-aircraft guns shot down the Su-7 piloted by Flight Lieutenant Dilip Parulkar close to Zafarwal. He ejected. In fact, he boasts a rare record of three ejections. You count every ejection as renewed life.

Now sample this: In an IAF blitz on an armour column near Kasur in the 1965 Indo-Pak war, his Hunter aircraft took a hit from turret-mounted machine guns; one round pierced the canopy, bored through his right shoulder, missed the head by a whisker. A shave couldn’t get closer.

His leader advised him to eject; but he bore the pain and landed the Hunter somehow back at Halwara, his jumpsuit saturated with blood. Post-flight inspection revealed that the bullet proceeded to gash the parachute cords, ie, had he ejected, he would have plunged to earth. A cat with nine lives, kind of ‘indestructible’ like the watchtower.

But that December he descended into trouble; he parachuted right into the midst of shellacked locals, who roughed him up to vent their spleen. The savage punches on his head caused amnesia; besides the thrashing, he cannot recall the happenings few days before and after the concussion, even today.

His recollection rolls from the solitary confinement and daily interrogation in the PAF Provost & Security Flight (PSF) in Rawalpindi -- a camp for IAF prisoners of war. On the morning of December 25, Squadron Leader Usman Hamid, the camp commandant, invited the POWs over for celebrating Christmas.

The informal atmosphere gave Parulkar and his 11 co-POWs (Wing Commander B A Coelho, Squadron Leaders A V Kamat and D S Jafa, Flight Lieutenants Tejwant Singh, A V Pethia, M S Grewal, Harish Sinhji and J L Bhargava, Flying Officers Hufrid Mulla Feroze, V S Chati and K C Kuruvilla) to huddle and size up the situation. Tejwant broke the uplifting news of the Pakistani surrender in Dacca (now Dhaka); they rejoiced with a dignified hurrah.

Then on, while they had to sleep in their cells, they were free to mingle and spent time together from breakfast to dinner. Awaiting repatriation, they resorted to books, periodicals, cards, chess, seven tiles, volleyball, gossip, even flying kites to kill time. The Red Cross cranked up, its agents appeared monthly to deliver mail and cartons of goodies. To comply with the Third Geneva Convention, they were paid Rs 57 as allowance.

Flt Lt Dilip ParulkarOnce while playing seven tiles, Parulkar tripped up, his head bumped into a wall and he convulsed. During this syncopal spell, he uttered ‘target’ and ‘boot’ (he lost a boot during ejection); though incoherent, all presumed he had recaptured lost memory, but did not.

[Left: Flight Lieutenant Dilip Parulkar was held captive along with 11 co-POWs; photo courtesy: National Defence Academy]

The POWs naturally attracted visitors of every feather. The station commander of nearby Chaklala airbase queried pompously whether they were feeling at home. “Very much, Sir, this hoosegow reminds me of my childhood when I was mostly locked up,” Parulkar retorted. Combative, full of beans.

Meanwhile the air was rife with rumours of repatriation but the limbo lasted long. The already stressed living in captivity was further vitiated by ennui and monotony. Out of the blue, Mulla Feroze was repatriated on medical grounds in February ’72 (Pethia too, but later in July). The monthly allowance came handy to host a modest farewell party.

One ambition monopolised Parulkar’s being – to break out and decamp. Actually, he had broached the idea in end-January, and added that the Geneva Convention commanded a POW to escape and resume duties, for good measure, but everybody laughed out of court and dismissed it as bravado. He hard sold his pet scheme again, singling out Feroze’s restoration that the Indian government couldn’t care less about the rest.

The slack atmosphere in the camp simply whetted his appetite. Not the kind to retrace, he co-opted Grewal, and his spirited campaign bore fruit ultimately. The consensus was only the duo of Parulkar and Grewal, the fittest two, should endeavour. If caught, the firing squad would be in business.

Parulkar was inspired by Squadron Leader Roger Bushell who masterminded the flight of allied air force servicemen, which became the theme for the famous flick The Great Escape. Having studied the features of the area, he concluded that unlike the German camp Stalag Luft III, there was no need to dig a tunnel to flee. A barbwire fence separated Cell 4 and the compound of the adjacent PAF recruiting office and petrol pump, and the paved path between the two led to the gate where a corporal was stationed on duty. Dodge the sentries, vault the wall, and you alight on the Mall Road stretch of the legendary Grand Trunk Road.

The first task obviously was to shift into Cell 4. Not just for the relocation, but to meet the other ends too, they had to pal up with the staff, including the guards. Tip for a favour worked in the POW camp too.

Cell 4 was roomy enough to accommodate four cots. Parulkar worked his magic, got Chati, Grewal and himself housed there.

He had hit it off with the camp commandant too. He told Usman he was thinking of touring Europe during the Munich Olympics and that he needed an atlas to map out the sojourn. Some steadfast pestering, and lo, an Oxford school atlas that had seen better days landed on his lap one day. About this time, Usman had to move out for his new assignment as ADC to the Air Chief. Sqn Ldr Wahid-ud-din assumed charge of the camp. In the hurry, the atlas was left behind.

They collectively ruled out the return through Lahore theatre as the front was mined, and would have to wriggle past two armies shooting at each other. It was better to head north, hit the hills, trudge 100-odd kilometres in the easterly direction to touch down somewhere between Uri and Poonch, a less hazardous war zone in their reading. The hardest hurdle of this route was crossing the river Jhelum.

Since the getaway could consume six-seven days, they had to equip themselves with the appropriate survival gear and provisions -- haversack, compass, clothing, footwear, rations, water and cash. The fabric of Chati’s parachute canopy was lopped off to stitch two haversacks. The bladders cropped from the G-suit were configured into water-bags. Dry fruits and condensed milk would provide sustenance. Everybody scrimped to pool the kitty.

Kamat contrived a compass, the whole caboodle of component parts tucked up in a hollowed-out pen; a needle balanced on the head of its ballpoint nib oscillated to point at north. This marvel of ingenuity could be clipped to a pocket without arousing suspicion! (How the needles were magnetised, how the pivot, pointer, etc were devised and pieced together, is a story in itself.)

Getting a Pathan suit tailored was no sweat for a person of ample resource like Parulkar. And fortune smiled on him: his parents sent a parcel containing two shirts and a pair of trousers. The logistics were taken care of.

In the meantime, Harish was bitten badly by the escape bug, but was found wanting in every criterion -- fitness, features, not to speak of his ability to converse in Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi -- but he made up with enthusiasm what he lacked in attributes. He was smuggled in and occupied the fourth bed almost unnoticed.

Parulkar & Co had worked on a window and its grille, had loosened it enough to dislodge it with a shove, but unluckily the guards discovered it at the eleventh hour and refastened it. Their questioning stares were parried with we-don’t-know shrugs.

One morning the camp commandant burst in slapping a newspaper, fumed that a Pakistani POW was gunned down in India, gestured he too could be trigger-happy, threatened tit-for-tat and hotfooted out. The message was loud and clear, but nothing could deter Parulkar. In fact, he was immersed in plotting his next move.

On the wall opposite the barbed wire, he marked a rectangular outline above the skirting-board, to scrape and de-brick the area to burrow a hole whose perimeter would be just enough for one to slither through. While the quartet whiled away the daytime playing bridge, Parulkar and Grewal burned the midnight oil to beaver away with filched tools like table knife, iron nails, screwdriver and scissors, and Harish kept an eye out for spoilers more so because the alley beside the cell was a regular beat of the warders.

They concealed the ‘escape hole’ with a blanket draped over the bedstead, and humoured the sweeper to shirk. Come morning, the debris was whisked off into the cartons.

The duo then dredged out the mortar, detached the bricks one by one, and left the outer plaster intact. The ‘escape hole’ was ready on July 27.

They attempted to escape the next night but could not demolish the exterior. Their exertions produced a gaping fist-sized orifice only! The plaster was not a coat but a thick layer of firm cement. They replaced the loose bricks and cursed.

The escape route[The Rawalpindi-Torkham escape route; courtesy: Google Maps]

Not the hiccup but the fear of detection of the baby-hole was what had them on tenterhooks. Luckily, not a soul – not even those who parked their bicycles alongside the wall – noticed the odd cavity. While the night birds unpacked the toolkit and got down to chipping off the periphery, Harish stumbled on valuable gen: bus service at night.

Given the short haul, they could reach Peshawar before daybreak. He scrutinised the map. The town Torkham on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, it struck him, was only 34 miles from Peshawar. Lurk till nightfall, sneak in to Jamrud along the railway line, hoof it into the hills of Landi Kotal, wend their way to Landi Khana, hah, there you are, nine furlongs shy of the border at Torkham. Could breathe free air before the search-and-nab-contingent got wind of their scent. Voila! Why not skedaddle to Afghanistan?

Since Grewal was laid low by a bout of indisposition, they had to bide their time. The night of August 12 augured auspicious as a few events concurred: since it intervened the holidays of Friday and August 14 (Pakistan’s Independence Day), the weekend endured and a relaxed mood pervaded the camp; Wahid-ud-din retired to a Murree resort; a storm began brewing by evening (would keep the sentries indoors).

The plaster yielded, the trio crept out singly. They threw the Uri-Poonch map about the recruiting centre as red herring. Parulkar glanced at the wristwatch: half past midnight (August 13). The rain was beating down. Soaking in the downpour, shod in canvas shoes, the heroes paced down the windswept Mall Road towards the highway, what they hoped were the first footsteps of their march to freedom.

A scalp disease had compelled Grewal, a Sikh, to razor the locks; the one-inch regrowth lent him a pukka Pathan mien. The threesome, now on a trek to touristy Khyber, assumed their pseudonyms: Parulkar and Grewal were PAF airmen John Masih and Ali Ameer respectively, and Harish, their drummer friend, mutated into Harold Jacob.

They boarded a Peshawar-bound bus an hour later, but the busman kept the engine idling till the vehicle filled up. As he revved up, the conductor tapped Harish’s shoulder and asked for the fare in broken English, not Urdu. That they stood out even in the dead of night shook them into acute self-consciousness. The psychology of an escapee gripped them. Did they have a fighting chance to breast the tape at Torkham?

At the crack of dawn, the bus entered Peshawar city limits. They got off, ambled to a roadside tea shop. Since they wanted to reach Jamrud road before the dawn brightened into broad daylight, they got going on shank’s mare into the marches of Pathan country, where every second adult toted a gun and belted up a bandolier. (Dressed to kill, eh?)

As they took in the sights and sounds, Grewal, their ‘Pathan’, hailed a tonga. The tongawala grilled Grewal, so much so the 10-minute ride on the carriage appeared to last an hour. They were relieved to rid him off their back and head to Jamrud road as indicated by the nosy fellow.

The next strand of their egress was to find the railway line to Jamrud and linger thereabouts until sundown. Jamrud road was lined with shops and habitation; every mortal goggled at them, making them edgy with acute self-consciousness; they had no choice but to keep their head down and to carry on footslogging.

The road forked left, they followed this branch and found the railway line, but the piercing gaze of the onlookers prodded them to backtrack and pursue the old course. They were however elated to discover that the railway ran parallel to the road.

As they totted up two hours of legwork they espied a tollgate where checking was on. Parulkar, the bellwether, took stock: further walking was unsafe. They hovered until a bus arrived, climbed atop and blended with the dozen-odd passengers already ensconced on the roof. The bus, after being searched at five or six checkpoints, rolled in to its destination. Jamrud ahoy!

Back at the camp, Chati made three dummy beds, masked the hole, sanitised the cubicle and strove to feign signs of life in the cell. He flashed thumbs up when the remaining seven gathered for breakfast. They maintained ‘radio silence’ thereafter. What befuddled them was no one bothered finding out why the three were still asleep.

Had the heroes been hooked, was the indifference a mere charade? They chewed on, with bated breath...

Read MP Anil Kumar’s thrilling account of what happened next, tomorrow!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby pragnya » 04 Sep 2013 10:54

srai wrote:I think it's more that you don't need an IJT with PC-21. You'll still need AJT though.


since HTT 40 is similar to the Super Tucano/PC 21 - possibly it's induction from 2017 onwards may do away with IJT.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 04 Sep 2013 10:58

CROSS POSTING:

Don't know with what happened to the 6 MMMA aircraft that ICG was planning to buy.

But now CAG is going to design and develop a desi MMMA. [click] and [click]. Some points:

1. The MMMA shall have a Maritime Patrol Radar (MPR) capable of performing the following functionalities:

Code: Select all

        - Capable of Detection, Localization, Classification, Tracking and Recording of Aerial and Surface targets.
        - Capable of having auto tracking features (TWS) for detected targets.
        - Enhanced Target Tracking, update and warning feature for alterations in speed and course
          (marine targets) based on operator selected threshold.
In addition the MPR should have the following Features:
        - Synthetic Aperture Radar (Spot and Strip) (SAR)
        - Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR)
        - Range Signature (RS)
        - Moving Target Indication (MTI)
        - Sea
        - Air
        - Ground
        - Secondary back up weather avoidance (and navigation mode with real beam mapping
        - The MPR must have Long Range Surveillance and small target detection mode (for search and rescue mission, life rafts)
        - The MPR shall offer a beacon SART (X-band Transponder) mode
        - The MPR shall be capable of interfacing for operation with IFF Mk XII ’S’.
        - The MPR shall have ECCM Resistant features


2. The MMMA shall have a Electro-Optic/Infrared (EO/IR) System capable of performing the following functionalities:

Code: Select all

        - 360 degrees Coverage for day and night surveillance, observation.
        - Detection, reconnaissance, identification and localization
        - Auto tracking capability
        - Thermal imager payload
        - Laser Payload
        - High Definition Camera


3. I don't know if the platform has been chosen yet, but the dates to response to these EOIs are fairly aggressive.

4.The initial requirement is for 10 such units. Another 05 units are envisaged as phase II. The future requirement is for around 10-15 such units.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 04 Sep 2013 17:01

^^ Not sure why HAL is not lic manuf Do228 NG variant and then use it for CG MPR requirement. DRDO can outfit all the equipment on Do228-NG. Cost Effective and Home Made solution.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 04 Sep 2013 18:25

The Coast Guard already operates the Do-228 maritime surveillance version.

Image

Going by what they trialed earlier (Beriev Be-200 and Bombardier Q400), I think this one is for something bigger. I would throw in the Shinmaywa US-2 into the mix too now.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Cybaru » 04 Sep 2013 19:59

Austin wrote:^^ Not sure why HAL is not lic manuf Do228 NG variant and then use it for CG MPR requirement. DRDO can outfit all the equipment on Do228-NG. Cost Effective and Home Made solution.


Probably the range. You need stuff that has longer station time for such work. You might as well get something that can fly to station and remain there for 4-12 hours with refueling. IOR is big. No point in getting a smaller platform. The electronics cost more than the platform.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vishvak » 04 Sep 2013 20:21

Plus imported planes could come with limitations. If there is need of smaller planes with requirements for high armor fuel and ammo by many agencies then it may have to be developed. Better if a jet trainer can be modified for some roles where heavy duty bombs may not suffice.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sum » 04 Sep 2013 21:42

From Livefist:
As part of the ongoing 'Op-Rahat' the IAF airlifted a Pawan Hans helicopter out of Harshil today. The Pawan Hans helicopter which crashed on Harshil helipad on 28 June 2013 was 'under-slung' and airlifted to Dehradun via Dharasu in delicately handled operation by a Mi-17 V5 helicopter of the IAF.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2013 00:51

indranilroy wrote:CROSS POSTING:

Don't know with what happened to the 6 MMMA aircraft that ICG was planning to buy.

But now CAG is going to design and develop a desi MMMA. [click] and [click]. Some points:

1. The MMMA shall have a Maritime Patrol Radar (MPR) capable of performing the following functionalities:

Code: Select all

        - Capable of Detection, Localization, Classification, Tracking and Recording of Aerial and Surface targets.
        - Capable of having auto tracking features (TWS) for detected targets.
        - Enhanced Target Tracking, update and warning feature for alterations in speed and course
          (marine targets) based on operator selected threshold.
In addition the MPR should have the following Features:
        - Synthetic Aperture Radar (Spot and Strip) (SAR)
        - Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR)
        - Range Signature (RS)
        - Moving Target Indication (MTI)
        - Sea
        - Air
        - Ground
        - Secondary back up weather avoidance (and navigation mode with real beam mapping
        - The MPR must have Long Range Surveillance and small target detection mode (for search and rescue mission, life rafts)
        - The MPR shall offer a beacon SART (X-band Transponder) mode
        - The MPR shall be capable of interfacing for operation with IFF Mk XII ’S’.
        - The MPR shall have ECCM Resistant features


2. The MMMA shall have a Electro-Optic/Infrared (EO/IR) System capable of performing the following functionalities:

Code: Select all

        - 360 degrees Coverage for day and night surveillance, observation.
        - Detection, reconnaissance, identification and localization
        - Auto tracking capability
        - Thermal imager payload
        - Laser Payload
        - High Definition Camera


3. I don't know if the platform has been chosen yet, but the dates to response to these EOIs are fairly aggressive.

4.The initial requirement is for 10 such units. Another 05 units are envisaged as phase II. The future requirement is for around 10-15 such units.


The LRDE XV-2004 has all the above modes. Looks like it will be used or a derivative. It's reportedly in production for the Navy.

The EO/IO system is very similar to what's carried on the Nishant..they can develop a larger assembly with a larger FOV camera, larger FPA sensor etc.

CABS if I remember correctly integrated the XV2004 on Navy Ka31s, Alh and a Dornier.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2013 02:02

Cybaru wrote:
Austin wrote:^^ Not sure why HAL is not lic manuf Do228 NG variant and then use it for CG MPR requirement. DRDO can outfit all the equipment on Do228-NG. Cost Effective and Home Made solution.


Probably the range. You need stuff that has longer station time for such work. You might as well get something that can fly to station and remain there for 4-12 hours with refueling. IOR is big. No point in getting a smaller platform. The electronics cost more than the platform.


If my memory is correct, the Do228 is not pressurised. That would limit its flight altitude and hence sensor footprint.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby andy B » 05 Sep 2013 03:11

Indranil boss is there a el-op pod under the port side fuel tank of the ICG Dornier?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby gnair » 05 Sep 2013 23:37

If my memory is correct, the Do228 is not pressurised. That would limit its flight altitude and hence sensor footprint

That would be correct. Any airframe that is boxy would normally not be pressurized and would have a sweet spot of between 6 and 7,000ft pressure alt. But that does not prevent them from flying 10,000ft> with canistered O 2. DO-228's are great platforms for littoral warfare support with the prime responsiblity of surface detection and targetting including periscope hunting in a tactical role within the 200-250 mile zone.( In typical VMC/visual meteoroligical conditions) Increasing the electronics on it would be an overkill for such a platform. HAL-Kanpur should remove its horse-blinders and look at the feasibility of adding floats to the 228, so that it can play a vital support role in island territories and also to-from future IN-aircraft carriers in a amphibious logistics support role. The Japanese ShinMeiWa can do the bigger jobs in the same role, if ever that materializes in future.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 06 Sep 2013 02:04

andy B wrote:Indranil boss is there a el-op pod under the port side fuel tank of the ICG Dornier?


No Boss. Those are actually not fuel tanks at all. They are Micron air pollution control pods. Currently ICG uses it for spraying oil binding agents to remove oil pollutants from coastal waters and prevent contamination.

But there is a provision for Airborne Multi-Mission Optronic Stabilised Payload (AMOSP) comprising of a LLTV camera, FLIR and laser optics, installed in a retractable ,gyro-stabilized turret, Ring laser Gyro INS with GPS and long range real-time datalinking capabilities, to perform intensive day/night aerial surveillance duties. You can see it in the starboard fairing for the MLG. I know that some Navy Do-228s have it. I don't know if any ICG Dornier's have it or not.

Image

A similar system is used by the Finnish Frontier Guards.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 07 Sep 2013 19:37

the was a test flight of the EMB145 AEW today. it came in for landing around 12:10PM flying low below the cloud level.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2013 03:08

gnair wrote:
If my memory is correct, the Do228 is not pressurised. That would limit its flight altitude and hence sensor footprint

That would be correct. Any airframe that is boxy would normally not be pressurized and would have a sweet spot of between 6 and 7,000ft pressure alt. But that does not prevent them from flying 10,000ft> with canistered O 2. DO-228's are great platforms for littoral warfare support with the prime responsiblity of surface detection and targetting including periscope hunting in a tactical role within the 200-250 mile zone.( In typical VMC/visual meteoroligical conditions) Increasing the electronics on it would be an overkill for such a platform. HAL-Kanpur should remove its horse-blinders and look at the feasibility of adding floats to the 228, so that it can play a vital support role in island territories and also to-from future IN-aircraft carriers in a amphibious logistics support role. The Japanese ShinMeiWa can do the bigger jobs in the same role, if ever that materializes in future.


Thanks. So to get them higher than 10k feet, yet have some decent crew comfort (cant go to the can, with canistered o).. they will need larger MPRs. Correct?
I am approaching the issue as higher flight altitude, larger radar horizon etc. But of course, since this is CG, i might be mistaken they might be ok with flying lower..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby gnair » 09 Sep 2013 19:02

Thanks. So to get them higher than 10k feet, yet have some decent crew comfort (cant go to the can, with canistered o).. they will need larger MPRs. Correct?
I am approaching the issue as higher flight altitude, larger radar horizon etc. But of course, since this is CG, i might be mistaken they might be ok with flying lower..


Yaa, for the role that is being described, would need a platform of the size of a Fokker-50, ATR-42 or Dash-8, that can climb to flight levels (18,000ft>), be able to conduct slow speed rendezvouz orbits (90-115 kts) of areas of interest, have enough electrical power on board and lastly have an endurance of 4-6 hours on station before returning to base. The 228's on the other hand would be a point to point platform along the sub-continental coast, with limited orbit and time on station capability. Typical flt. profile i'd imagine would be 200 miles from coast outbound -Trivandrum, Cochin, Mangalore, Goa, Mumbai all the way up to the Gujarat coast with an emphasis on 'surface- search' rather than air-search or over the horizon ops. At some point the role of the 228 would overlap Navy MALE UAV's and that's where the 228's role ends.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 09 Sep 2013 22:31

Hmmm, I don't know. Most ISTAR operations are flown below 10k. Also, the Do-228 has sufficient range. At MTOW, the NG advertises more than 5 hours at station 200 nm from base. Its range is certainly more than the 500nm requirement specified in the 2010 RFI by CG. So, be prepared to be surprised. There is certainly a chance.

Having said that, it is very difficult to understand what CG wants from the platform. They tried the Bombardier 415 (another un-pressurized aircraft) and the Be-200!! If they favour amphibious capability, I would throw in the ShinMaywa US-2 as a personal favourite. Though I don't know if it will be an overkill for this operation. If altitude is not an issue, then the CASA-212 may not be a bad option either.

The ATR-42, CN-235/295 and AN-74MP are the other rumoured competitors.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23694 » 10 Sep 2013 16:06

This article does seem to make sense.
Sukhoi 35 sales to China!!! Why Russia?

http://idrw.org/?p=26655#more-26655

Any information that can reduce the fear mentioned in this article is most welcome

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 10 Sep 2013 16:30

dhiraj wrote:This article does seem to make sense.
Sukhoi 35 sales to China!!! Why Russia?

http://idrw.org/?p=26655#more-26655

Any information that can reduce the fear mentioned in this article is most welcome


Can someone post that article please? My browser (Firefox) gets redirected to IBTIMES TV for some odd reason (does not happen in IE, but I have other issues in IE). Thx.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby RKumar » 10 Sep 2013 16:39

^^ Here you go ...

Russia and china are finalizing deal for sale of Sukhoi su 35, but many defence experts around the world are puzzled with Russian stupidity or just lack of business sense. China has a large fleet of Sukhoi su 30MKK and have reversed engineered older Sukhoi su 27K and have named them J-11.China had ordered 200 Sukhoi Su 27 but cancelled the order when 100 aircraft’s were delivered and started manufacturing reversed engineered Sukhoi 27 with their own airframe modifications and also cracked Russian software on Sukhoi 27 to enable it to fire their own locally developed weapons systems.

Russia on the other hand made right noises, and Rosoboron export`s general manager Anatoli Isaykin in MAKS 2009 aero show said Russia will investigate the J-11B Chinese copy of Su-27 and Sukhoi was part of the process, no action and only talk, fuelled speculation of a secret deal between Russian and china on this matter, china was also able to make a reversed engineered Sukhoi 33 for its aircraft carrier without much noise from Russia.

No matter what level of technology was reversed by china, Russia only did lip service and continued supply of AL-31 engines to J-10 Program of China and never objected to resale of Russian built Klimov RD-93 engines to Pakistan for their JF-17 aircraft’s.

Purchase of limited (48 Nos) by china is leading to speculation that its token order for reversed engineered aircraft’s to be followed, J-10 has been dubbed in Chinese media has better aircraft than Sukhoi 30MKK and Sukhoi 27K, recent test flights of china’s two stealth fighters indicate that china might be shopping for new avionics and other systems (Ew, engines) for this aircraft’s and what better then purchase of latest 4+++ gen fighter aircraft in form of Sukhoi su 35.

When it comes to India, Russia surely has a different attitude towards its intellectual property rights; India has been Purchasing Russian weapons for more than 5 decades now but not once has reversed engineered any of weapons but when it comes to TOT of its legally bidding transfers, Russia has always made India dance to its tune, prime examples are of refusal to give India TOT on T-90 Gun barrel where India is forced to use older Gun barrel of T-72 tanks , Even tires for IAF’s Sukhoi Su 30MKI fleet comes from Russia , since they refuse India to source it from Indian companies .

India on the other hand funded many of the technology which are been used by their forces , prime examples are Mig-29K which was first ordered by Indian Navy and after production line was set up from Indian funds , Russian navy went ahead ordered Mig-29K for its own use, abandoning any further development of Sukhoi su33 , it current naval aircraft’s . Russian air force also has ordered Sukhoi su 30SM which is a Variant based on Sukhoi su 30MKI which India had funded.

India even in Joint ventures like BrahMos had to complete with Russian systems hurting its export potential, India had to enter into Joint venture with Russia on key project like MTA and Pak-Fa on Russian terms, with limited or no contribution from Indian side, India needs to be careful when dealing with Russia now, Indian funded projects might find their way into its enemies hand.

NOTE : Article has been reproduced by INN .

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_20317 » 10 Sep 2013 16:46

sum wrote:From Livefist:
As part of the ongoing 'Op-Rahat' the IAF airlifted a Pawan Hans helicopter out of Harshil today. The Pawan Hans helicopter which crashed on Harshil helipad on 28 June 2013 was 'under-slung' and airlifted to Dehradun via Dharasu in delicately handled operation by a Mi-17 V5 helicopter of the IAF.

Image


Turns out that is around 3 tons at 9000 ft above sea level.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby VinodTK » 11 Sep 2013 04:28

India's Tech Roadmap Points to Small Sats, Space Weapons
NEW DELHI — India’s vision of future military space capabilities includes networks of small, less expensive satellites as well as systems to protect those spacecraft from attack and, if necessary, destroy enemy space systems.

The country’s military space systems are part of a wide-ranging, 15-year military technology outlook called the Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap. The plan for developing small satellites is being carried out jointly by the Indian Space Research Organi­sation (ISRO), the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Indian defense forces, said an official with the Defence Ministry.

“The future of satellites will surely move towards miniaturization,” said Aditi Malhotra, a research associate with the International Strategic and Security Studies Programme and the Bangalore-based National Institute of Advanced Studies (NIAS).
:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby wig » 13 Sep 2013 08:54

India to buy 6 more special operations planes from US

Taking the first major step after announcing the formation of a specialised mountain strike crops to face China, the Ministry of Defence has decided to purchase six additional special operations aircraft, the C-130-J, from the United States.

The decision will be placed before the Defence Acquisition Council for formal ratification tomorrow. Defence Minister AK Antony heads the council and it is the final decision-making body in the MoD.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) already has six C-130-J planes that were ordered in 2008 at a cost of around $1.059 billion (approx Rs 4,500 crore then). The additional lot of six planes will be based at Panagarh in West Bengal to augment the airlift capabilities in the eastern and north-eastern parts of the country.

"The planes will be tasked with the mountain strike corps that the Army is coming up with," sources said. The Corps was okayed by the Cabinet Committee on Security on July 17.

The purchase, like the first lot, will be through the foreign military sales route directly between India and the US governments.

US Deputy Secretary of Defence Ashton Carter will be in India on a three-day visit from September 16 to 18. Carter, along with National Security Adviser Shiv Shankar Menon, co-chairs the India-US defence technology initiative set up last year.

The Hindon-based first squadron of C-130-J has proved its mettle in the recent Uttarakhand floods by landing on very short runaways under risky conditions. These planes could be a "game-changer" in the Himalayas where only mud-paved flat grounds are available for use by the IAF.

The aircraft is capable of airdropping armed commandos and material in darkness due to its night-vision imaging. In wartime, it can be employed for special air operations, transport of material and supplies, besides maintenance.

During peacetime, its role includes operations and maintenance in mountainous terrain in adverse circumstances. The four-engine turboprop plane with Rolls Royce engines has the technology and configuration to perform low-level precision flying.


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2013/20130913/nation.htm#5

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 14 Sep 2013 08:51

Extra C-130Js definitely would greatly assist Himalayan ops.In fact a fleet of at least 24 should be built up,as some number are earmarked for special forces use.

Here is an interview with the chief of the PAF,link posted here as it has his views on the IAf too.In it he expresses happiness at the JF-17's induction,the extensive air exercises the PAF holds with the US (Red Flag,Green Flag),Saudis,Turkey,Egypt,Jordan,UAE,etc.,participation in many foreign def. expos including China,recd. 34 Erieye AEW aircraft from Sweden,IL-78 refuelling tankers from Ukraine,plus 4 ZDK-3 AWACS from China,being delivered.

ADJ June issue.
http://adj.realviewtechnologies.com/?iid=78542

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby pragnya » 21 Sep 2013 21:34


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby SaiK » 22 Sep 2013 01:33

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20433
Saab, the Swedish defence major has bagged two orders from the Hindustan Aeronautic Limited (HAL), worth $33 million. It is for the serial production of integrated electronic warfare self-protection systems for the Indian Army’s and Air Force’s Advanced Light Helicopter.


vs.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-01-08/chennai/28379791_1_strategic-electronics-electronic-warfare-r-d

These days wars are not about brute force but about disabling your enemy before moving in for the kill. And today, electronic warfare has emerged as the preferred weapon of choice.

According to V K Saraswat, Director of R&D at Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), India is now self sufficient in electronic warfare. "Electronic warfare is very important in current context and our country has done extremely well," said Saraswat.


WTF!?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby pragnya » 22 Sep 2013 05:51

^^^

Saik,

2 reasons i think :

1. the SaaB IDAS is a more mature and complete suite in that it integrates 3 sensors (Radar, Laser and Maws) coupled with auto counter measure capability. besides it has modular approach giving it a good potential for the upgrade as the tech matures and is light weight. besides it was chosen for the WSI - Dhruv (Rudra) when the DARE MAWS (in association with Cassidian with their passive sensor) was still IMO, in testing phase. IMO since the Dhruv is already configured with IDAS, HAL doesn't have to reconfigure Dhruv afresh for the DARE MAWS suite which may delay prod because of testing period needed etc..

2. HAL and SaaB were in talks to set up a JV to manufacture this IDAS EW Suite in India for both local and global market. you can google for it. SaaB wanted to close down it's unit in Pretoria, South Africa (the 1st set of IDAS suites for the Dhruv came from here) and shift it to Bengaluru on establishment of the JV but as per my knowledge based on open source - this has not happened so far.

SaaB IDAS Suite PDF

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 22 Sep 2013 08:38

6 more C-130Js being fast tracked for MMS's US pilgrimage.One wishes that other deals such as the Rafale,subs,etc.,with other nations receive the same urgency as US purchases done.6 more Hercules transports will be a very welcome addition and as said before,even more need to be acquired,but their price must be fixed now.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby ramana » 22 Sep 2013 09:14

Philip the French dont want to TOT important stuff for Rafale. Hence the reluctance to sign up.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23455 » 22 Sep 2013 11:45

ramana wrote:Philip the French dont want to TOT important stuff for Rafale. Hence the reluctance to sign up.


...there's the small matter of the rumored HAL vs. Reliance as well just to make matters more interesting/murkier.

One of the few advantages of going the FMS route in a bizarre sort of way :-?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_22605 » 22 Sep 2013 13:38

There was never a HAL vs reliance, its just that the French want to escape meaningful tot citing lame reasons and reliance being true to their tradition only are interested in hard cash and nothing else. HAL has its shortcomings but commitment to self reliance isn't definitely one if them
Cheers!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23455 » 22 Sep 2013 13:57

raghuk wrote:There was never a HAL vs reliance, its just that the French want to escape meaningful tot citing lame reasons and reliance being true to their tradition only are interested in hard cash and nothing else. HAL has its shortcomings but commitment to self reliance isn't definitely one if them
Cheers!


So why not box the French in the corner and ask HAL and Reliance to form a specific JV entity? If the other guy can play machiavellian games, why can't we...unless as usual our internal lack of ability to forge a common cause makes the evil gora gain.

Full Disclosure: I own .00001% in RIL. :)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 22 Sep 2013 18:55

RajitO wrote:
raghuk wrote:There was never a HAL vs reliance, its just that the French want to escape meaningful tot citing lame reasons and reliance being true to their tradition only are interested in hard cash and nothing else. HAL has its shortcomings but commitment to self reliance isn't definitely one if them
Cheers!


So why not box the French in the corner and ask HAL and Reliance to form a specific JV entity? If the other guy can play machiavellian games, why can't we...unless as usual our internal lack of ability to forge a common cause makes the evil gora gain.

Full Disclosure: I own .00001% in RIL. :)


Reliace, in relation to the MMRCA saga, seems to be a French invention. And, that is the issue. So, even a JV will to some extent give into the French.

One of the few advantages of going the FMS route in a bizarre sort of way


Well.

FMS can be mixed-n-matched. As an example, SoKo is goinf vi aFMS to purchase their F-15s (if they go ahead with that deal), but are directly contracting with the vendors (outside FMS) to support the same purchase. While the GoI has gone via FMS for the entire life cycle for the C-130J/C-17s that the IAF bought. The entire purchase can be parted out too - so GoI bought the C-17 frames from Boeing and the engines elsewhere and had them integrated.

Point being, it still depends.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby SaiK » 22 Sep 2013 21:05

pragnya, agreed.

but real maturity for indic systems comes only when homegrown products and services are operational.

i hope, if this deal would lead to that in mid to long term, and this is only a stop gap for ensuring maintenance of existing or planned capabilities. if dr saraswat ji says, we are matured, it does not mean a peanut if it is removed from the context of operationalizing such enabling techs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby pragnya » 22 Sep 2013 21:53

SaiK wrote:pragnya, agreed.

but real maturity for indic systems comes only when homegrown products and services are operational.

i hope, if this deal would lead to that in mid to long term, and this is only a stop gap for ensuring maintenance of existing or planned capabilities. if dr saraswat ji says, we are matured, it does not mean a peanut if it is removed from the context of operationalizing such enabling techs.


i hope so.

the fact is DARE/CASSIDIAN MAWS is maturing now. it was showcased in AI 2013. it is going to be part of the MI 17V5 among other rotary and fixed wing aircrafts. there was one picture sengupta had put on his blog -

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--vLgUVQalR4/U ... family.JPG


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