Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

[Lalmohan]

the daylight colour in the landing and take off sequences were also significantly different
and besides, it looks like a long strip, but at that height, there is not enough room to land, roll and then take off
the herc would have to taxi back to the numbers at the landing end

[vivek_ahuja]

IMO would be very useful to have around 50 C-130Js and 50 C-17s. We should have an order of 100 MTA the kind of firepower that can be deployed with such numbers is extensive.

An often looked issue with all these propaganda shots (lest we forget the much publicized AN-32 landings in Laddakh few years ago after which the airstrips again fell into disrepair and disuse) is that the infrastructure will never survive the kind of plans BRF folks would like for it.

Take this "runway" for example: going by the impact of the C-130 I can assure you that after a few fully loaded landings like that the airstrip will have to be closed again to allow repairs. Even then, unless the strip is fully paved for long term survival, its fate is sealed to emergency landings and usage only. This has happened enough times around the world and enough times in Laddakh over the past decades.

Under these circumstances, having 12+ or 50+ C-130Js is essentially the same with regard to that specific area.

Of course, I am all for the greater numbers of aircraft, but for other reasons than aerial reinforcement of DBO.

The bottom line is that these awesome videos of landing + takeoffs better be part of a longer term plan than to just throw dust into the eyes of the Indian public similar to how "Forward Policy" was supposed to be 53 years ago.

my two cents...

-Vivek

[kit]

Can we have a seperate thread for indian UFO sightings The picture clicked by a indian airforce officer and his wife in south india [ http://newindianexpress.com/states/kera ... 640262.ece] looks awfully like an ahem.. UFO .the professor at ISC was very adamant that there is of course none. Now coming to law of producing fake pics ., cant think of any benefit the couple can get from fake pics !..there do seem awfully a lot more ufo s nowadays. Are the aliens interested in advanced indian weaponry or attracted to peculiar electromagnetic transmissions from drdo s experiments

[Victor]

The runway number on the dark patch just before touchdown is "01" indicating that the plane was landing from the south heading north (roughly) at 10 degrees ("36" or 360 degrees would be full north). It takes off over this same patch. The other end of the runway would have the reciprocal "19" meaning 190 degrees. It took place in the early morning and not much time elapsed between landing and takeoff as the shadows confirm, probably just a couple of minutes. The runway looked long enough to not need reverse pitch braking but it was still done so this was a full-blown assault landing rehearsal.

Also, the "runway" could be anywhere in the area by the looks of the dry, hard terrain. The C-130 and C-17 can land in any relatively flat area cleared of large rocks and brush. Even soft ground like a beach is kosher. A few markers could indicate the rough outline of the landing area and the direction.

[Singha]

but again as vivek pointed out, its nowhere near the infra needed to land and support a mech brigade and SF elements, the bare minimum needed to prevent cheen from taking all the land in that sector.

[NRao]

you are missing the shadows on the runway...

True. Thx.

PD.

Sorry. Apologies.

[Victor]

Ya, with Leh only 60-70 miles away, it looks like we don't have the need to turn DBO into a fully operational base flying planes in and out on a daily or weekly basis. It will remain an ALG but this does demonstrate that we can get jeeps, armour, artillery on the ground very quickly when needed almost anywhere in that region. One advantage of a dirt strip is that craters can be quickly repaired by jawans with shovels.

[Sabyasachi]

@pratikdad..right. Any reason why the surface is not cemented/ black topped? because they cant bring in soo much raw material?? i think going forward, they will land with incrementally increasing loads to see what kind of loads can be landed safely?

I think we saw InA trucks during recent stand-off with PLA in that area. So supplies for construction shouldn't be a problem that has to be resolved by only air lift.

[rohitvats]

^^^When the landings renewed in 2010 and a AN-32 landed, it stopped for a brief period, gave sweets to the IA engineers on ground, ACM Browne met the IA party led of 14 Corps Commander and Northern Army Commander, and then came back.

All the above would have been over in 30 minutes or so.

Check here:http://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/09/ ... adakh.html

[PratikDas]

you are missing the shadows on the runway...

True. Thx.

PD.

Sorry. Apologies.

No worries. I think we both want the DBO mission to be more than just a touch-and-go flight.

[vivek_ahuja]

I am assuming that the C130J flight is not for posturing (or a demonstration of capabilities) but an actual beginning of sorties to equip the Indian Army troops stationed nearby.

That's what we all thought about the AN-32 flights as well a few years ago until somebody blew the lid on the sham that was.

The airstrips fell into disrepair after the initial high-profile flights. The infrastructure wasn't built up around the strip. No upgrades were made.

And all of this came into view when the Chinese took their 19 km stroll inside our territory. Far too late. Of course, the strips were then used to bring in some face saving stuff while the Chinese did the same using ground convoys right up to their happy campers.

The dramatic UAV footage notwithstanding, I would feel much better if the government or the army or the IAF came out and told us about the long term strategy against China and what is being done on the ground about it.

But someone in the PR side of the government has finally figured out the gem that is military mass media and is now using it to brush aside criticism of lack of preparedness. Dramatic videos are used to get the "ooh" and "aah" and makes people forget there is more to all this than what is on screen. BRF folks know better yet I still see a page full of fantastical extrapolations well removed from ground realities in Laddakh today.

In less than a week we have seen IR footage of L-70s being used to pummel Paki bunkers and stabilized UAV footage to show a new take on the landings at Nyoma, oops, DBO.

My two cents onlee.

-Vivek

[Prem Kumar]

Thanks Vivek. I'd deleted my post because, after reading through earlier posts in the page, it was clear that this was more of a show-and-tell session

[vivek_ahuja]

Ya, with Leh only 60-70 miles away, it looks like we don't have the need to turn DBO into a fully operational base flying planes in and out on a daily or weekly basis.

Agreed.

However, just for completeness: In the mountains out there, 60-70 miles is a very long, rough and arduous trip, especially given the poor state of roads when heading north from Shyok up till DBO via Saser. Also note that the roads are fair weather only and unsuited for heavy two way traffic.

That is right now, of course. In future it may very well be improved.

There is no reason to assume that with a much more determined effort from the government, the ground infrastructure cannot be brought up to requirements where things like "Advanced Landing Grounds" are only used in the context of Spec Ops and the like, not as the backbone of our defense harking back to the early 60s.

It will remain an ALG but this does demonstrate that we can get jeeps, armour, artillery on the ground very quickly when needed almost anywhere in that region.

True. But without the fuel and ammunition for intensive operations unless these have been stored beforehand in FARPs and AFARPs.

One advantage of a dirt strip is that craters can be quickly repaired by jawans with shovels.

I presume you mean damage due to weather. Damage caused by falling shells or rocket barrages is another matter.

Again, JMT onlee.

-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

^^^When the landings renewed in 2010 and a AN-32 landed, it stopped for a brief period, gave sweets to the IA engineers on ground, ACM Browne met the IA party led of 14 Corps Commander and Northern Army Commander, and then came back.

All the above would have been over in 30 minutes or so.

Check here:http://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/09/ ... adakh.html

Partly because of the problems with engine restart at those altitudes I presume. And also partly because the airstrip has no infrastructure to support parked aircraft or things like engine starters, NAV instrumentation and weather protection.

Sigh. Sometimes I end up depressing myself. Maybe I should take the kool-aid and watch the show as well.

-Vivek

[rohitvats]

Well, before we go around depressing ourselves, please be aware of the following:

1. Landing and takeoff of C-130 may well be show and tell but has its military application. The a/c landing and takeoff needs to be proofed and SOP drawn. This is true of AN-32 and will be true of C-17.

2. Regular military use is required if a body of troops needs to be maintained that way. The ALG in NE are used regularly, every day - reason being that they are lifeline of the troops deployed further still on border with China. Also, them ALG are hard top.

This is Vijayanagar ALG for you -



3. The troop level in DBO sector is very low - not more than a battalion strength worth IMO. These troops are maintained out of Leh and Thoise by helicopters like ALH and Mi-17.

4. The use of ALG is in the period short of war - when it is used to bring in troops and equipment and ammunition. As was the case of Chusul ALG in 1962. It was used to build-up troops and attendant supplies in the area. The troops of AMX-13 tanks were carried to Chusul by AN-12 from Chandigarh.

5. Having said that, the ALG needs to be prepared for the intended role. Vivek_Ahuja us bang on the money about even couple of flights damaging the runway and making it non-operational. Here is an extract about Chusual airstrip in 1962 (from history of Corps of Engineer):

Prior to hostilities, the airstrip at Chushul was used at the leisurely pace of one aircraft a day. During the hostilities it was subjected to six An-12s and about eight packets daily and became unserviceable frequently. Its daily maintenance need rose to 4 tons of RC3 bitumen an item then it acute shortage… By November 13, 95 An-12s and 57 Packets had landed at Chushul airstrip, the PSP Sheets of which, protesting under the strain, kept disintegrating. At the same time, the siting of Avantipur and Chushul airstrips were undertaken, while the Thoise airstrip became operational when two Packets, carrying plant and machines landed successfully.

6. I feel the ALGs in relative hinterland at Nyoma and Fukche will be developed first into something which can take load of sustained operations. DBO will follow when GOI is ready to show some balls to the Chinese.

[Singha]

just read up on the huge labour gangs the KMT had to use to keep their yunnan and sichuan airfields operational for resupply from india by usaf over the "hump". it will need 2000 people with shovels and small tools to keep one ALG up, but no need....the C130 itself can lift small dozers, scrapers and other engineer eqpt should we decided to make it a proper concreted or hardpacked strip.

[kmc_chacko]

Did anybody read this

NGT halts DRDO's testing range in Karnataka

DRDO testing range gets red signal from green tribunal

In a major setback for the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the National Green Tribunal (NGT), on Wednesday halted the construction of the country’s first aeronautic testing range in Chitradurga in Karnataka stating that the range did not have clearance from the Karnataka Pollution Control Board (KPCB).

The interim order stalling construction was passed in a petition filed by environmental activists from Bangalore, who alleged that pastoral lands were being converted to facilitate the range.

The petition filed in February, said that 10,000 acres of traditional, pastoral land, termed Amrit Mahal Kaval in Karnataka, was being converted for industrial purposes against all norms. The land was transferred by the State government to various organisations including the DRDO, the Indian Institute of Science and the Indian Space Research Organisation. The application wanted the tribunal to restore the traditional pastoral lands to its original state devoid of all encroachment and construction.

Following the application, the NGT set up an expert committee to ascertain the actual status of the land under question. The report of the committee was submitted recently to the tribunal.

On Wednesday, when the matter came up for hearing, counsel for the respondents said no clearance from the KPCB was necessary for the project. This position, he said, has already been clarified by the Ministry of Environment and Forests. “If the NGT passes an order halting the project, this will result in huge loss of public money,” the counsel argued.

The Bench said the DRDO had indeed applied to the KPCB for consent to establish the range but had gone ahead with the constructions even as the matter was pending consideration. This, the bench observed, was not in accordance to norms. Therefore, the tribunal said status quo should be maintained by the project proponents till the KPCB considers their application and processes it as per the requirements of law within two weeks. The matter was then posted to September 17.

http://newindianexpress.com/education/s ... 745785.ece

[Victor]

Vivek, now that you've got us depressed, why don't you brighten us up with your views on why the IAF might have chosen the C-130J special operations version when we could have gotten many more of cheaper sada models. And the C-17.

[NRao]

just read up on the huge labour gangs the KMT had to use to keep their yunnan and sichuan airfields operational for resupply from india by usaf over the "hump". it will need 2000 people with shovels and small tools to keep one ALG up, but no need....the C130 itself can lift small dozers, scrapers and other engineer eqpt should we decided to make it a proper concreted or hardpacked strip.

check out the experience of the US in A'sthan for landing C-17s.

[vivek_ahuja]

Well, before we go around depressing ourselves

Saar, that was for myself onlee. I didn't mean to depress others.

1. Landing and takeoff of C-130 may well be show and tell but has its military application. The a/c landing and takeoff needs to be proofed and SOP drawn. This is true of AN-32 and will be true of C-17.

2. Regular military use is required if a body of troops needs to be maintained that way. The ALG in NE are used regularly, every day - reason being that they are lifeline of the troops deployed further still on border with China. Also, them ALG are hard top.

Agreed. Taken within this context: fine and good. No arguments.

3. The troop level in DBO sector is very low - not more than a battalion strength worth IMO. These troops are maintained out of Leh and Thoise by helicopters like ALH and Mi-17.

This part worries me and has done some for some time. Especially since you consider what can be brought opposite them on short notice.

4. The use of ALG is in the period short of war - when it is used to bring in troops and equipment and ammunition. As was the case of Chusul ALG in 1962. It was used to build-up troops and attendant supplies in the area. The troops of AMX-13 tanks were carried to Chusul by AN-12 from Chandigarh.

Hardware for war has changed dramatically since 1962. Not everything can now be flown in with a rifle and ammo pouches in hand. More importantly, stores and ammunition required cannot be built up at a fast enough rate with airlift alone going by our past experiences on the job. Yes, the airlift capacity has dramatically improved, but so has the stores to be airlifted to the point that the bottomline is the same: airlifts in and by itself are not good enough.

6. I feel the ALGs in relative hinterland at Nyoma and Fukche will be developed first into something which can take load of sustained operations. DBO will follow when GOI is ready to show some balls to the Chinese.

I am curious on your thoughts on this. Why Nyoma and Fukche before DBO? Are you basing this on known ORBAT data? If so, can you elaborate your reasoning?

-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

Vivek, now that you've got us depressed

why don't you brighten us up with your views on why the IAF might have chosen the C-130J special operations version when we could have gotten many more of cheaper sada models. And the C-17.

Okay look, its not a binary argument. Yes we have C-130J and C-17s now. And yes they are massive improvements to what we had before. No arguments there.

But their arrival also does not mean that suddenly the dimensions have changed and that airlift based reinforcement or rapid airborne movements have become the IA modus operandi. The C-130Js whilst originally designed to provide the Indian SOCOM (organization still in forming and god knows when it will materialize) some deep insertion capabilities, also has proven itself as a all weather transport aircraft. This is not something the vanilla versions could have done to begin with. Similarly, we will see where all the IAF takes the C-17 and is comfortable doing so. But that said, its as much about the aircraft as it is about the infrastructure as well as combat doctrine in play.

We need to stop looking at single weapon capabilities as a elixir to all our infrastructure and doctrine deficiencies on the ground.

No matter how great the C-17 and the C-130J are, they cannot solve all problems. At the end of the day, heavy truck convoys bringing up the logistics on the ground will always be superior to the most capable aircraft making dramatic supply drops. And no matter how many silver bullets we buy (C-130J, M777 etc.), we still need some basic infrastructure to back it all up and provide the backbone the IA needs in Laddakh. In fact, if we have all the ground infrastructure set up, we can even use these weapons for offensive roles, rather than purely frontline deployments.

At best, the airlift option should be looked at as a emergency relief option such as that at Chushul in 1962. But it cannot be our only option from day one. That's just asking for trouble.

JMT, of course.

-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

just read up on the huge labour gangs the KMT had to use to keep their yunnan and sichuan airfields operational for resupply from india by usaf over the "hump". it will need 2000 people with shovels and small tools to keep one ALG up, but no need....the C130 itself can lift small dozers, scrapers and other engineer eqpt should we decided to make it a proper concreted or hardpacked strip.

The MI-26s of the IAF had already lifted such bulldozers up to DBO at one point. I believe the Army Corps of engineers used these to prepare the DBO airstrip.

What is needed however is to bring up a reliable all weather road from Shyok to Saser to DBO. Once we have that the infrastructure, the numbers of troops deployed and the heavy weapons we can deploy there will go up dramatically. Not to mention improvements to the airstrip to allow heavier operations than "one-flight-every afternoon".

At that point the C-130J /AN-32 can revert to purely communications and temporary "surge" type operations to respond to Cheen maneuvers.

-Vivek

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>What is needed however is to bring up a reliable all weather road from Shyok to Saser to DBO.<SNIP>

Slight correction.

The Saser-La road runs from Siachen Base Camp at Sasoma (along the Nubra river) and then snakes it way to Saser-La - this is the old summer time caravan route. From Saser_La, it cross goes down towards central part of Shyok river, crosses over at a place called Saser Brangsa, and goes towards Murgo, Burtsa, Qazi langar, Depsang La and then DBO.

The Shyok river trail follows Shyok village - Chong Jungal - Burma - Char bagh - Yurgolak Fort - Sultan Chushku - Murgo route. From Murgo, it is the same as above to DBO. The Shyok River needs to be crossed multiple times in this route and hence, was not used in summer by caravans.

[vivek_ahuja]

<SNIP>What is needed however is to bring up a reliable all weather road from Shyok to Saser to DBO.<SNIP>

Slight correction.

The Saser-La road runs from Siachen Base Camp at Sasoma (along the Nubra river) and then snakes it way to Saser-La - this is the old summer time caravan route. From Saser_La, it cross goes down towards central part of Shyok river, crosses over at a place called Saser Brangsa, and goes towards Murgo, Burtsa, Qazi langar, Depsang La and then DBO.

The Shyok river trail follows Shyok village - Chong Jungal - Burma - Char bagh - Yurgolak Fort - Sultan Chushku - Murgo route. From Murgo, it is the same as above to DBO. The Shyok River needs to be crossed multiple times in this route and hence, was not used in summer by caravans.

Good point. Thanks for the correction. I was having a tough time remembering all the names on that route! But you have it memorized it seems!

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>
Good point. Thanks for the correction. I was having a tough time remembering all the names on that route! But you have it memorized it seems!

If you waste as much company bandwidth on Google Earth+Wikimapia+Maps as I do, I better be able to recall those name Jokes apart, I have downloaded and filed whatever information I could/can get on geography in the area (and other areas of interest). Difficult to understand military commentary w/o good maps with proper reference point.

Because for me, every analysis starts with Military geography.

[ramana]

With the adverse rupee exchange rate the MRCA deal is off. Added to that the French are not interested in TOT.

Guess the ruling party needs other sources.

[srin]

<SNIP>
Good point. Thanks for the correction. I was having a tough time remembering all the names on that route! But you have it memorized it seems!

If you waste as much company bandwidth on Google Earth+Wikimapia+Maps as I do, I better be able to recall those name Jokes apart, I have downloaded and filed whatever information I could/can get on geography in the area (and other areas of interest). Difficult to understand military commentary w/o good maps with proper reference point.

Because for me, every analysis starts with Military geography.

RV saab, can you please share the KMZ ? A few months ago, I tried plotting all the locations mentioned in the official history of 1962 war but couldn't complete them. Either they are spelt very differently or because they just aren't available anywhere.
I love looking at these features in full terrain quality mode and at a slight angle, so that it shows the mountains and valleys clearly. Sometimes, I use the flight simulator mode, which is really lovely.

[Mort Walker]

With the adverse rupee exchange rate the MRCA deal is off. Added to that the French are not interested in TOT.

Guess the ruling party needs other sources.

Has this been confirmed or is this speculation?

[NRao]

With the adverse rupee exchange rate the MRCA deal is off. Added to that the French are not interested in TOT.

Guess the ruling party needs other sources.

No kidding !!!!

AoA.

[ramana]

Right now the later. Aage aage.

[NRao]

What about the FGFA?

I wonder.

Can it be killed with similar logic?

.....................


F-15 via FMS?

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>RV saab, can you please share the KMZ ? A few months ago, I tried plotting all the locations mentioned in the official history of 1962 war but couldn't complete them. Either they are spelt very differently or because they just aren't available anywhere. I love looking at these features in full terrain quality mode and at a slight angle, so that it shows the mountains and valleys clearly. Sometimes, I use the flight simulator mode, which is really lovely.

Sorry, mate, have not created or maintained any KMZ file on GE.

What I've done is use as much literature as possible to find out relative location of sites of importance and look for them on the map. The biggest issue is with respect to spelling of the names.

The best bet for you to study the geography of the area and location of various points is this link:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/india/

Click on the geographical area in the map above for which you need a topographical map. The good thing about these maps is that they were made in 50s and 60s and clearly mention the caravan/trail routes along with all the important passes along these routes. This is very important to understand the geography of the area from historical claim and military purpose.

The files are a bit heavy but worth every bite.

Further - please search for articles written by Harish Kapadia. He is an acclaimed mountaineer who has extensively covered the Karakorum tract in Ladakh. A lot of his articles about expeditions can be found at the website of Indian Mountaineering Foundation (IMF).

Link to his long multi-part article on Siachen Glacier:

http://www.indianmountaineeringfoundati ... acier.html

Has very good maps.

Another link on his travel along the Shyok to DBO and then going west from DBO to upper reaches of Siachen. Has an excellent map.

'On The Death Trail'

http://www.alpinejournal.org.uk/Content ... 0Shyok.pdf

He has also written a fantastic book on Siachen based on his personal climbing experience in the area - apart from historical perspective, he covers the military aspect of the whole Siachen issue and how geography can play a role.

Here is a link to his book 'Siachen Glacier: The Battle for Roses':

http://www.amazon.com/Siachen-Glacier-B ... 059&sr=1-2

If you can, please buy the book.

You'll have to collate and read the above material in conjunction with 'exploration' on Google Earth to understand the stuff. To start with, use the map(s) from Texas A&M University - they will help sort out 95% of your issues.

For more recent update(s) on development (like roads and access) in the area, please scout the travel blogs where posters cover their travel(s) to Ladakh and other such areas. You'll get first hand information on roads and passes and the condition thereof.

Hope the above is of some help.

[pankajs]

Indian Army to build air base in Dooars

The Indian Army is all set to come up with an air base in strategically located North Bengal.

The Army has identified 750 acres of land near Damdim in the Dooars in Jalpaiguri district and has sought the state government’s help in acquiring 250 acres of land.

Some other tidbits..

The minister added that the army has also sought help in constructing an alternative road connecting Sikkim with the rest of the country via Gorubathan, Lava, Algara and Pedong.

The proposed base comes at a time when China has improved rail and road links to Nathula border.

The new road and the base would help Indian army to increase mobility in a region bordering China, Bangladesh, Nepal and Bhutan.

The army is also likely to set up a modern armoury near its proposed air base.

North Bengal has three air force bases at Hashimara, Binnaguri and Bagdogra.

Unlike the Chinese move to expand railway connectivity up to Sino-India border near Nathula, the proposed Rs. 1339.46 crore Sevoke-Rangpo railway, the foundation for which was laid on October 30 2009, is gathering dust.

Vice-President Mohammed Hamid Ansari laid the foundation stone in presence of Mamata Banerjee the then railway minister and chief minister of Sikkim Pawan Chamling.

The 52.70 km long rail connectivity from Sevoke near Siliguri, to Rangpo in Sikkim is yet to get clearance from the union ministry of environment and forest.

The state government has been accusing the Centre of delaying the project.

The railway survey up to Nathula has been completed.

[Singha]

> union ministry of environment and forest.

this ministry and its patrons in 10 janpath has single handedly sunk projects worth lakhs of crores that would have changed the places they were set up in.
keeping everyone kamjor, lachaar, majboor in a hut is its mission statement and it was executed superbly on that.

[member_23455]

North Bengal has three air force bases at Hashimara, Binnaguri and Bagdogra

Binnaguri has an air force base does it?

BS.

[abhik]

...F-15 via FMS?

Its not about buying something "cheaper"(Mig-29, F-18, Gripen etc), its that we don't have the money to buy anything.

[VinodTK]

World's top 10 strongest Air Forces, India is at no. 7

[abhik]

^^^
In the Expert opinion of India TV?

[titash]

^^^
In the Expert opinion of India TV?

Love these dialogues:

"With an impeccable array of ultramodern radar systems and combat air patrols, JASDF is widely known for its assaulter squadrons in the list of strongest air forces of the world."

"Comprising a powerful fighter fleet along with sophisticated technology, RAAF is credited for immediately implementing the kinetic and non-kinetic air effects."

It's amazing what media people get paid for these days...

[koti]

^^ I stopped when I found that the Russians operate 3000 strategic bombers. Can some just pull out numbers from their table book and publish it? Don't the editors not verify anything!!!