Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

[Pratyush]

Snip.............

care to explain that we don't have NLOS , Thanks.

Just saw your post. With NLOS, I mean, NLOS and JUMPER and Spike NLOS etc,

You will agree that India has nothing that compares to these weapons.

[vasu raya]

Agreed , would wait for Helina to come out of trials first

[Indranil]

HAL Connect has become accessible again .

From Issue 41:

1. They are brain storming challenges in the IJT project.
2. The company officially responsible for MTA is called MTAL (Multirole Transport Aircraft Limited) ... It has a new building complex.

[nachiket]

It's about time to dump these workhorses, they have done their job quite well... nice to see the pilot was safe

Dump and replace with what? There is only a small number of new aircraft coming in. The IAF has to stick to it's planned phaseout schedule. The squadron strength is low as it is.

[aharam]

MiG-21 crashes in Gujarat, pilot safe

Really glad to see that the pilot was safe. Always harrowing when things like this happen. Then again, it was a WC piloting the bird!

Cheers
Aharam

[A Sharma]

HAL's Jaguar Darin III Makes Maiden Flight

[Aditya_V]

What about the Honeywell engines, do the aircraft have to come back for engine change? Can the adour power the El-2032? If El-2032 is used is it being mated with Derby?

[Singha]

I suspect this greatly increases our naval strike and sar mapping ability on land as all upg jags will get the radar now and would be able fire asm like harpoon.

A2a intent will not be much except defensive shots using derby or python5.

[shiv]

HAL's Jaguar Darin III Makes Maiden Flight

I thought DARIN III upgrade would include an in flight refuelling probe.

[chiru]

@ shiv it does have a refueling probe, similar to the darin II but its inside the fuselage like this

[shiv]

@ shiv it does have a refueling probe, similar to the darin II but its inside the fuselage like this

Darin II did not include IFR probe did it? The IFR was specifcally highlighted as part of the in Aero India.

[vina]

HAL's Jaguar Darin III Makes Maiden Flight

Hmm. This was just a formal "announcement". The Jags have been up and doing circuits around Bangalore with a lot of noise between 7:00 and 8:00 in the mornings for the past week or so.

But with this upgrade, the Jags frankly have taken a leap in capability beyond what the platform could ever do. It is a sound platform and can serve competently for another 25 years or so if the engine is upgraded .

The hand out says integration of "Multi Mode Radar" . I can only hope that it is the same MMR from the LCA. Great way to get spin offs from the LCA project and "Paisa vasool". The Israelis had great success from the avionics and systems developed for the Lavi (including the El-2032 radar).

[Indranil]

I am loving it a lot too

They are reusing a lot. A visit to HAL-Bengalore -Part 3

The so-called ‘D-3 Jaguar IS’ are featuring the same HUD as on LCA ‘Tejas’, along with three MFD-55 AMLCDs supplied by THALES-Samtel Display Systems and full HOTAS controls, all utilising a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus. The core avionics computer – reportedly the same as in the MiG-27UPG upgrade at HAL-Nasik – is the OSAMC (Open Systems Architecture Mission Computer) originally developed by DARE and now produced by an India-US joint venture involving HAL, ‘Edge Tech India’ and US-based ‘Edgewood Ventures LLC’.

I think the radar is EL/M 2032. Would bring about the commonality with the IMs and the Harriers. Would like to know its capabilities against aerial targets (The radar will be smaller than on the LCA).

IAI’s $150M EL/M-2032 Radar Contract Mystery

Will have to see what missiles they get.

P.S. Singha sir must be typing his while I was updating this post. Anyways, we are saying the same thing.

[Singha]

it might be the base EL2032 with a smaller antenna dish looking at smallish nose. but will have commonality with Tejas radar for sure.

new weapons possible should be Derby, AStra(if it ever comes), python5, HMS DASH helmet, Harpoon ASM, SLAM-ER(if we buy it), Popeye-Lite, bad weather CCIP bombing using SAR mode, ISAR to detect shipping, bomb damage assessment using SAR .... plus much better SA in frontal quadrant using active radar....wont be surprised if returning Jags from strike missions come across random enemy stragglers/transports/recce/juicy helicopters and take them out using Derby's in a run of the river opportunistic attack.

[wig]

ndian, Chinese fighter aircraft come face to face near Arunachal border


http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/i ... 18846.html

Chinese nuclear-capable SU-27 fighter aircraft came close to a confrontation with Indian Air Force jets on October 30 afternoon in the Tawang region of Arunachal Pradesh, says a report in the Delhi tabloid Mail Today.

The news report, said to be based on reports filed by the IAF and external intelligence agency RAW , says, on October 30, some IAF jets were on a routine sortie mission in Arunachal Pradesh, when the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force's Lhasa-based radar picked them up, setting off a chain reaction.

At 3:04 pm, two chinese nuclear-armed Sukhoi-27 jets took off from Gonggar air base in Tibet to confront the IAF jeets. The Chinese aircraft, according to the Mail Today report, flew southeast towards the Indian side, and were picked up on the radar at 3:29 pm near Cuona.

[chiru]

Darin II did not include IFR probe did it? The IFR was specifcally highlighted as part of the in Aero India.

single seat jags had IFR probes since the beginning but i think the twin seat ones, having an external fixed probe were introduced later on from 2008, im not sure if it was linked with the Darin III upg.

@wig - i dont think Indiatvnews is a reliable source, just look at this

At 3:04 pm, two chinese nuclear-armed Sukhoi-27 jets took off from Gonggar air base in Tibet to confront the IAF jeets.

[shiv]

Darin II did not include IFR probe did it? The IFR was specifcally highlighted as part of the in Aero India.

single seat jags had IFR probes since the beginning

No.

When Jags were first ordered it was requested that the IFR probes be removed. Decades later when the IAF wanted them, the plumbing was still there and that was used. There is a story about that somewhere...

[shiv]

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/i ... 18846.html

At 3:04 pm, two chinese nuclear-armed Sukhoi-27 jets took off from Gonggar air base in Tibet

Huh?? What S#!t is this?

Must this reprter shiver so much in his dhoti that the minute he thinks China he says "nuclear armed". Why would nuclear armed fighters take off for an interception? The standards of defence reporting remain below par in India, although they have improved.

[nachiket]

Well DDM has reported on nuclear tipped Surface-to-Air missiles in the past so can't say that this is a new low for them.

[Aditya_V]

Not to mention some SAM which were in development but later abondaned had dimensions of being 200 CM wide.

[member_20067]

Must this reprter shiver so much in his dhoti that the minute he thinks China he says "nuclear armed". Why would nuclear armed fighters take off for an interception? The standards of defence reporting remain below par in India, although they have improved.

nuclear-enabled.. nuclear capable.. nuclear armed.. ... the most commonly overused sensationalism tactics of desi jurnos..

[nits]

IAF to upgrade 80 Su-30MKIs to ‘Super Sukhoi’ standard

The prowess of IAF’s front line fighter aircraft Su-30MKI is set to get a boost with plans to equip them with missiles having a strike range of around 300 kilometers. The plan is to upgrade the first 80 Su-30MKIs to the level ‘Super Sukhois’ which will have highly advanced radars and weapon systems, IAF sources told PTI here.


Su-30 MKIs have been inducted into IAF in four phases. The ones to be upgraded are from the first phase and the project is likely to be completed in the next three to four years, they said.

[Singha]

hope the micro-brahmos proj comes through quickly. will finally give a 250km standoff A2G hard-target missile for use fleetwide.
we would still need a boxy slower subsonic derivative of nirbhay to better attack area targets with blast warheads or sensor fused submunitions...our desi KEPD/JASSM.

[member_20453]

With the CBU-105 SFW deliveries to begin early next year, Jag Darin 3s will be the first to recieve these. Jag is about to become the dealiest ground pounder in our arsenal till offcourse the Raffy arrives. I think we need to order another 2500 CBUs asap.

[Aditya_V]

IAF to upgrade 80 Su-30MKIs to ‘Super Sukhoi’ standard

The prowess of IAF’s front line fighter aircraft Su-30MKI is set to get a boost with plans to equip them with missiles having a strike range of around 300 kilometers. The plan is to upgrade the first 80 Su-30MKIs to the level ‘Super Sukhois’ which will have highly advanced radars and weapon systems, IAF sources told PTI here.


Su-30 MKIs have been inducted into IAF in four phases. The ones to be upgraded are from the first phase and the project is likely to be completed in the next three to four years, they said.

I thought Irbis was still PESA, any idea whats the AESA and how many TR modules given the SU-30 nose size. This radar could be deep penerating indeed.

[member_20453]

http://www.textrondefense.com/assets/pd ... asheet.pdf

Or we can have 1000 more CBU-105-SFW + 1500 CBUs with the CLAW munition, would be a perfect addtion to the arsenal, a total number of 3000 SFW bombs would be great to wipe out all of both Chini and Paki ground force.

[Singha]

those SFWs would be superb tools to attack bases with a lot of vehicles parked around or long convoys on the limited roads in the border areas. no doubt their sensor library can be programmed in some way to 'recognize' certain types of outlines like trucks , tanks, and maybe even drill down further using image analysis and be more selective - maybe go for only larger trucks, skip trucks and take out tankers, skip wheeled vehicles and go for SAM telars...possibilities are endless.

btw what is the price of those wing range extention diamondback type kits? we could use about 3000 for our sudarshan upcoming arsenal. sources claim a range of 50km (similar to AASM albeit unpowered flight) when launched at 40,000ft and mach0.9 ..... well outside most SAM bubbles. as a proof of concept, seems Raffy killed a tank @ 55km near benghazi using a AASM on day1 of the libyan revolution.

[A Sharma]

HAL Connect

[member_24146]

Russia Denies Losing Indian Arms Tenders
From: http://www.defencetalk.com/russia-denies-losing-indian-arms-tenders-45735/

Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport denied on Wednesday media reports that it had lost tenders on the delivery of heavy-lift helicopters and aerial tankers to the Indian air force.

“Rosoboronexport denies media speculation about Russia’s loss in both tenders as these reports are false,” the company said in a statement.

“The results of these tenders have not been announced, and any premature speculation on the subject misleads the public and professionals, both in Russia and in India,” the statement said.

Media reports in Russian and Indian media earlier indicated that the Russian upgraded Mi-26T2 Halo heavy-lift helicopter lost to the Boeing Chinook CH-47F, while the Il-78MK-90 aerial tanker lost to Airbus A330 MRTT.

[Philip]

More muck from the UPA-2!

http://newindianexpress.com/thesundayst ... 363163.ece

CAG puts offset question to Defence Ministry

By N C Bipindra | ENS - NEW DELHI

Published: 02nd Dec 2012

Photos

The defence ministry, while admitting that DFI proposals do not qualify for offsets, noted that the same had been conveyed to Boeing. (FilePTI)
The defence ministry, while admitting that DFI proposals do not qualify for offsets, noted that the same had been conveyed to Boeing. (FilePTI)

Was Defence Minister AK Antony party to his ministry’s decision to waive rules in favour of US aerospace major Boeing to escape its obligation to plough back $1.74 billion as offset into the Indian defence and aerospace industry? India’s Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has put the defence ministry on the mat over the $4.1-billion deal with Boeing to supply 10 C-17 Globemaster heavy lift cargo planes for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and eight P-8I Poseidon long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft for the Indian Navy. The defence offset policy mandates that a foreign vendor who wins any Indian defence contract worth over Rs 300 crore ($55 million) should plough back at least 30 per cent of the deal back into India.

On Boeing’s P-8I deal, the company had agreed to provide DFI worth $153.90 million (Rs 750 crore) in the form of safety, reliability and air-worthiness seminars; establishment of fire finder classrooms; transfer of metallurgy and hydraulic lab facilities; composite manufacturing assembly/tooling; mobile broadband; friction stir welding and aero structures tools and processes. CAG objected that these, too, don’t fall under the three offset rules. “The DFI proposals relating to safety, reliability and airworthiness seminars and establishment of fire finder class rooms were not valid offset as there was no value addition through the IOP. The remaining proposals relating to transfer of metallurgy/hydraulic lab facilities, composite manufacturing assembly/tooling were also a kind of direct import without any value addition through the IOP,” the CAG audit found.

The defence ministry, while admitting that these DFI proposals do not qualify for offsets, noted that the same had been conveyed to Boeing, which had not yet claimed offset credit so far. Defence companies are awarded points for executing their offset responsibilities. The CAG isn’t convinced. “The reply, however, does not reckon the fact that the elements of offset once included in the contract are liable to be claimed by the vendor. Moreover, even if a claim by the vendor is not admitted by the ministry, offset deficit of $153.90 million (Rs 750 crore) would still remain,” says the report.
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Comments(2)

It is very clear that for some strange reason the present government wants to grovel before the US. This again will go against the government in the coming Gujarat elections. It is equally clear that the CIA/Pentagon machinery has for many years used funding through some religious assemblies to further its own interests in India. The government of India and Sonia Gandhi in particular must make their stand on this issue clear.There must be a clear white paper trail of how funds of religious organisations throughout India receiving aid from abroad are being used. Equally important is for Modi to state his stand on the issue. Its high time we bring to an end funding from abroad once and for all with respect to religious organisations.They are sowing the seeds of divide and rule

Posted by Raj at 12/02/2012 10:50 Reply to this Report abuse

Well the deal must be scrapped if the rules were not followed This again goes to show that some sections of the defence industry are on the pay roll of the Pentagon To my mind Antony himself is honest and a true Indian who cannot be bought by the US But there are many in the defence ministry unfortunately who can I again stress that in addition to a certain amount of money being ploughed back into Indian Industry, transfer of technology is a must and there must be a clear time table for India to become completely self reliant in the Defence sector over the coming decade

Posted by Raj at 12/02/2012 11:36 Reply to this Report abuse

[Kersi D]

Must this reprter shiver so much in his dhoti that the minute he thinks China he says "nuclear armed". Why would nuclear armed fighters take off for an interception? The standards of defence reporting remain below par in India, although they have improved.

nuclear-enabled.. nuclear capable.. nuclear armed.. ... the most commonly overused sensationalism tactics of desi jurnos..

Now watch out for nuclear powered Chinese SU 27s.

I am ssshhhiiivveeerrriiinngggg.

Kersi


PS It is cold in Mumbai, 17.55534 Dec C

[Kersi D]

With the CBU-105 SFW deliveries to begin early next year, Jag Darin 3s will be the first to recieve these. Jag is about to become the dealiest ground pounder in our arsenal till offcourse the Raffy arrives. I think we need to order another 2500 CBUs asap.

I would not mind not another 100 odd Jaguars DARIN III, with Honeywell engines and CBU-105 and some mini/micro Brahmos and Crystal Maze and some additional bells-and-whistles. Base them at Jorhat, Dibrugarh, Hashimara and Bagdogra.

K

[sarabpal.s]

Jaguar is now totally Pet product star of in house building. Need more than hundred as some of the old Frame is too old to update.

We should not look toward west where Jaguar is retiring from service not because they old but they want to keep the industry running with typhoon and fund flowing.
Just like the Private industry as their new products become old as soon as they left the counter.

[sum]

^^ IAF is getting some real amazing look at the cutting edge F-16 versions. The SAF F-16s Block-52 with CFTs look real mean:

Indo-Singapore Joint AF Training Ends

The eighth Indo-Singapore Joint Military Training (JMT) between Indian Air Force (IAF) and Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF), held annually at Air Force Station, Kalaikunda, West Bengal, concluded on Friday. The JMT earlier began on October 16.

The JMT held under a bilateral agreement signed between the two countries help both Air Forces gain greater understanding of each other's concept of operations. The first JMT was held in 2006.

IAF Su-30 MKI and MiG-27 aircraft participated together with RSAF F-16D Block 52+ Fighting Falcons during the six week, day-night joint drills. The RSAF detachment comprised 30 officers and 87 personnel. The RSAF Fighting Falcons have flown back to Singapore today in the morning, said Air Officer Commanding, Air Commodore R Radhish from Kalaikunda.

^^ How do i reduce the size of the 1st image to make it inline?

[Singha]

F16 after block30 has been overloaded....more like a overgrown bomb truck and depending on amraams and pervasive awacs cover to down weak enemies.

Just a more modern bandar if you will....a2g oriented.

[rohitvats]

A question to Hawai Maulanas and Talibs...

- in terms of air-combat performance in the 20k-30k feet (ASL) sub-set, how do Indian and PLAAF aircraft fare?

The reason I ask this is because today I bought a joy-stick and was playing Flight Simulator on Google Earth. I commenced flying from Hashimara and moved towards the Chumbi Valley area and thence, towards Tibetan mainland behind the same.

Now, the valley floor is at 14K-15K feet - I am assuming that any ground attack on targets in areas like this will have to commence from 25K-30K feet bracket. Similarly, contest for air-space will also happen in this range - or, even higher.

While AWACS and long range AAMs are a buzz-word these days - how will the fighters fare at this altitude? IAF fighters taking off from virtual sea-level and PLAAF taking from 10K+ feet airbases.

Thanks.

[anand_sankar]

@rohitvats, answering your questions one by one...

While AWACS and long range AAMs are a buzz-word these days - how will the fighters fare at this altitude? IAF fighters taking off from virtual sea-level and PLAAF taking from 10K+ feet airbases.

Leh and other high-alt bases apart, the IAF has a definite advantage across the board at all its bases. Taking off from almost sea level both in the Gangetic and Brahmaputra basin, IAF fighters can do full-load take offs with very efficient runway length utilization. Even hot days are manageable because of the high density of the air.

The PLAAF on the other hand has a fight on its hands at bases above 8,000 ft. Aircraft will require a lot of runway to pull off loaded take offs, often will have to sacrifice weapon or fuel loads to make best use of available runways. Things will be especially bad between April to August with high day temperatures affecting the density of the air.

- in terms of air-combat performance in the 20k-30k feet (ASL) sub-set, how do Indian and PLAAF aircraft fare?

Answering this from a pure air-to-air engagement perspective, 25,000 ft to 45,000 ft is kind of the sweet spot for long range air engagements for gen 4++ aircraft. Turbofan engines in today's A2A fighters are optimised for this altitude regime, this applies to both the IAF and the PLAAF. Launching missiles in this region offers good kinematic performance. (Gen 5 -- Raptor, PAK-FA etc are optimised for 55,000 ft plus offering its own advantages but that's beyond the scope of this question)

The biggest catch I see is the high floor of the plateau pushing engagements to the higher end of that band to allow for more space to pull up from evasive maneuvers. Pulling up at 15,000 ft is not the same as 5,000 ft. Also pilots would need to watch out for low-level flak and radar directed guns that are placed on the high floor. These guns are typically good till 6,000 ft, so if they are at 10,000 ft, you'd better not venture below 16,000 ft. (If you recall in one of Vivek Ahuja's scenarios a Su-30MKI gets hit by flak while pulling up over Manasarovar lake.) Also from what we saw in Kargil MANPADS work really well in the cold rarefied air, and they can engage upto 9,000 ft. These things will have to be factored into while planning air to air ops.

Now, the valley floor is at 14K-15K feet - I am assuming that any ground attack on targets in areas like this will have to commence from 25K-30K feet bracket.

Definitely if you want to use LGBs you would look at dropping the bombs from 25,000 ft+. Here again bomb kits need to be calibrated for the higher altitude release and corresponding adjustments might also be need to made on aircraft avionics. But we have knowledge of this from Kargil. Operating at a higher altitude with a full bomb and fuel load will not matter for the aircraft if its engines are optimised for this regime. This is the reason why the Jags are getting new engines.

[rohitvats]

@Anand - thanks for the effort. You've answered some of the question I had.

I guess, another advantage that India will have is that PLAAF will have to come over 12K-15K feet to cross the mountain line between India and Tibet - this should allow India to pick up targets from afar.

[anand_sankar]

@Rohitvats, in terms of radar coverage its nothing short of a disaster for us.

Terrestrial radars are practically useless especially in the north-east as they wont be able to see beyond the foothills.

As for airborne radars the McMahon line is a huge radar obstacle. The ridges are 15-18,000 ft plus on average. The ridges cast a huge shadow on the Tibetan side for airborne radars from India. The further away you are from the ridges, longer the shadow and you can't see aircraft hiding in that shadow. To see into the plateau we need to push up as close to ridges as possible and that is unwise. As a consequence we will suffer from very short reaction times for any attack. Especially advantageous for terrain hugging cruise missiles, who can pop up over the ridge where they will be identified and we will lose them again in the folds of the foothills.

[Bala Vignesh]

^^ To negate that issue the need of the hour is a good, mobile and cheap quick reaction anti air system.. May be something like the avenger, integrated into the early warning and detection network can be employed here to provide the solid bubble against low flying long range subsonic cruise missiles..