Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

[shiv]

And HAL didn't have the ability to put in a nuclear power plant in the plane. Stupid HAL. No wonder it was a failure. Bah!

Instead of making a 4 barrel rotary cannon, they put 4 cannons so the whole plane would have to rotate to make it a rotary cannon. And shells must rotate for accuracy.

[shiv]

did the marut have ac? it certainly didn't have night vision

I heard it had cataracts and high blood sugar.

[NRao]

Just as a FYI - from a private book, which is somewhere in a moving box in my basement - and this filed under IIRC:
* At the very early stages of the LCA there was a good amount of dialog between the leaderships of the LCA team and the IAF. Most of it was rather informal
* The LCA team nearly managed to get the UN to fund a wind tunnel, which was snuffed by one of our neighbors
* (making a longish story short) At a very informal gathering the Indian team requested partnership with the Brits on their efforts, they felt it was OK. Only thing the Indians thought of the Tornado, the Brits the Jaguar. Once that became clear the thought fell apart
* The LCA was designed to counter the F-16C

[Mihir]

Instead of making a 4 barrel rotary cannon, they put 4 cannons so the whole plane would have to rotate to make it a rotary cannon. And shells must rotate for accuracy.

And since the rifling had a right-hand (clockwise) twist, the plane had to roll anticlockwise to compensate. If it rolled clockwise while firing, the additional spin induced and the resulting gyroscopic forces caused the rounds to veer off target.

[negi]

Asking one if Marut met it's goals in the IAF is like asking a biological father of 2 to prove that he is a mard.

[Surya]

I am not "rubbishing" the a/c, however, in the end, what came out of it? What do you think we got, what are the redeeming features?

Seriously ???
every hour, every sortie it flew was an added experience for the people to learn and improve on.
What you got was the first level of infrastructure and knowledge base to build subsequent fighter jets ALL squandered because the IAF killed the follow on (HF 73 - twin engined).

Also note the $@%#@ Brits made it difficult for us with the engine and if we had persisted in some form we would have been maybe in a slightly better position with Kaveri.

[Lalmohan]

besides, i have never seen a lalchix in a marut
that must be proof in itself that it was a failure

[Sanku]

....t!

Try burnol.



Your hateful rants only point to one thing, the basic questions asked:

1) Which of the intial goals did Marut meet.
2) What was the extent of Marut usage in IAF.
3) What was the long term take aways from the program.

Dont have answers which you are willing to engage on and accept.

[Sanku]

Asking one if Marut met it's goals in the IAF is like asking a biological father of 2 to prove that he is a mard.

Passing off adopted children as biological children here are we?

[Sanku]

I am not "rubbishing" the a/c, however, in the end, what came out of it? What do you think we got, what are the redeeming features?

Seriously ???
every hour, every sortie it flew was an added experience for the people to learn and improve on.
What you got was the first level of infrastructure and knowledge base to build subsequent fighter jets ALL squandered because the IAF killed the follow on (HF 73 - twin engined).

Also note the $@%#@ Brits made it difficult for us with the engine and if we had persisted in some form we would have been maybe in a slightly better position with Kaveri.

Ok so you say in the one breath that we got the experience and in the second that we squandered it (while blaming the AF)

So net net, after all the finger pointing, we are left with a big zero to show for that experience, because we certainly seemed to have learnt no lessons (unless you say trying to make Kaveri in house was a lesson), carried over no experience and have not leveraged anything from that program.

But to be very frank, I question that we got the first level of anything, Kurt Tank's work went with him, to quote Shiv-ji, "I am the technology" -- nothing that HAL did post Kurt Tank's leaving, shows that they could actually carry forward the previous work.

[Lalmohan]

mind you - the maruts are supposed to be ruddy complexioned and red haired right? if one of them was a gal, then the maruts could have involved lalchix
so maybe it was a partial success after all?

[Sanku]

I lose to the lal chix.

[Sanku]

^To be honest, you would lose to any kindergartner kid with data.

- instead of asking US to spoonfeed you data, why not bring up your own data points instead of hand-waving about generally unfit or forced on IAF? You said all of these things and it would be obvious for folks with average intelligence that you would have to bring the data. If you cannot, just let us know. [everything has been posted here before].

No data + BS + lack of basic understanding of what to post == sankugiri. Thank you for joining my ignore list. Should've done that a long time ago and save some pain on the Armoured thread at least.

Marten bhai, the data was there, it would be very difficult for you to read data when going on a hateful rant and a trip of personal attack. You have not posted a single line of data, but kept the harangue on.

You can do whatever, but hiding does not change the truth.

[Surya]

I am not "rubbishing" the a/c, however, in the end, what came out of it? What do you think we got, what are the redeeming features?

Surya wrote
Seriously ???
every hour, every sortie it flew was an added experience for the people to learn and improve on.
What you got was the first level of infrastructure and knowledge base to build subsequent fighter jets ALL squandered because the IAF killed the follow on (HF 73 - twin engined).

Also note the $@%#@ Brits made it difficult for us with the engine and if we had persisted in some form we would have been maybe in a slightly better position with Kaveri.


Sanku wrote
Ok so you say in the one breath that we got the experience and in the second that we squandered it (while blaming the AF)

Once again I chose not to go down the Sanku warrenhole. Easier to surrender

[ramana]

I read that it was a bomb fuse failed leading to explosion of weapon on the aircraft

And of course, no one ever will be held responsible.

The DRDO thread has Group Captain Bhanoji Rao talking about problems with fuzes made by OFB to DRDO designs. And the IAF deciding on importing Russian made fuzes for tactical applications on all air dropped bombs.


viewtopic.php?p=1413347&sid=36a02c8eb2d071c5a6ee2b05f2bc5928#p1413347

[NRao]

Air Force on high growth path: IAF chief

[ramana]

He must be taking a cue from MMS type of language.

Does an Air Force have high growth path?

[Austin]

IAF’s procurements till the 13th Plan ( 2012-2017 /2017-22 )

[Austin]

Deputy Air Chief mentioned that capital outlay for procurement for 12 & 13th plans is around $40 billion.

link

"We are on path of modernising our (IAF) assets. In the last five-year plan, IAF procurement was worth around Rs.1.5 lakh crore (about $35 billion) and over next two plan (2012-17 and 2017-22) periods (12th and 13th five-year plans), we envisage to procure assets worth over Rs.2 lakh crore ($40 billion)," Sharma said inaugurating the seventh international conference on 'Energizing Indian Aerospace Industry: Emerging Opportunities and Enduring Partnerships.'

[archan]

Guys, I told ya, this thread is effectively "Sankufied", by this Victor troll, who I think is either a Panda drone or a Paki form the def n dumb or key publishing forum where those kind of characters abound.

Mods, please put this Victor character out of his misery , or restrict his wisdom (whizz dumb?) to the armor thread which is already Sankufied and hopefully th other threads retain sanity.

How have you helped by making person oriented remarks? and kindly stop this "Sankufied" business.

[Austin]

India Seeks New Aircraft for Sigint Plus Other Roles

Within the next month, the Indian Air Force (IAF) will re-release a request for proposal (RFP) for nine aircraft to perform signals intelligence (Sigint), communications jamming (Comjam), ground survey and target towing roles. The previous RFP released four years ago shortlisted Embraer and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), both offering the IAI-Elta airborne integrated signal intelligence system (Aisis). But delays in defining India’s offset policy resulted in price escalation from the bidders, leading the Indian defense ministry to cancel that RFP.

The new RFP specifies a larger aircraft that can carry 10 passengers. The platforms bid previously were the Embraer EMB-145 and the Gulfstream G200 (by IAI). This time, IAI will likely offer a Gulfstream G550. Saab is also likely to bid again, having offered a Learjet platform previously. The Saab 2000 airliner is no longer in production, and since Indian rules do not allow the import of aircraft over 15 years old, the Swedish company is looking for an alternative larger platform, Peter Erlingborn, director of marketing for Saab India, told AIN. The IAF has also stipulated the aircraft must be certified for operations from airfields up to an elevation of 3,300 meters (10,827 feet) above sea level.

Two of the nine aircraft will be dedicated to Sigint, while the army, navy and air force will use the remaining seven for aerial survey, target towing and Comjam. The systems will be integrated in India with a local partner.

One vendor predicted to AIN that the cost to India of meeting this requirement will be much higher than previously, driven up by the change of specification and the significant depreciation of the rupee in the meantime.

[maz]

BR people in Goa, are any of you planning on attending the seminar and air display on May 10-May11 at NAS Hansa to celebrate the 60th anniversary of naval aviation in India?

[Austin]

IAF funds crunch to hit MMRCA deal

The financial crunch that has led to one of the lowest hikes in defence expenditure in decades is set to hit modernisation hard with new statistics revealing that the Defence Ministry has set aside only a few million dollars for new purchases, putting the future of critical purchases like fighter aircraft in question.

A detailed breakup of the new budget that has recently been made available has revealed that the Air Force, which is hoping to sign several new projects this year including the Medium Multi Role Aircraft (MMRCA), has been allotted only $372 million for new schemes.

While the total modernisation budget for the IAF is $6.8 billion, the majority of it is under the committed liabilities head for projects that have been signed in the past. This includes projects like the C 17 transport aircraft, modernisation of the Mirage 2000 and MiG 29 fleet and deliveries of the Su 30 MKI fighters.

Under the head of ‘new schemes’, the IAF has been allotted a mere $372 million that experts say will not be adequate to cover the purchases planned this year. The MMRCA in particular, which will cost upwards of $12 billion, has not been budgeted for. As an industry norm, a payment of 5-10 per cent of the contract value has to be made at the time of signing. This itself will amount to $500 million, going by very conservative figures.

Sources conceded that the MMRCA has not been budgeted into this year’s capital allotment to the IAF. However, they asserted that if the contract does reach a conclusive stage, money will be made available through other means to cater for the signing fees. Air Force Chief N A K Browne in particular has been expressing confidence that the deal would be signed in the coming months.

However, as things stand, the budgeted allocation for new projects will only cater for other projects that are also in the final stages. This includes the Chinook transport choppers, Apache attack helicopters, radar and other equipment.

Nonetheless, the IAF has got a lion’s share of the capital budget for new schemes. The total budget for new projects this year stands at only $550 million, with the Navy getting a minimum amount of $82 million.

The Army will also have a tough time in managing new purchases with its $91 million budget that will have to cater for projects like the new M 777 howitzers from the US as well as the 197 light helicopter contract.

As reported earlier, India will spend its lowest on defence expenditure in over three decades after the government proposed a modest hike in the annual budget that amounts to just over five per cent over last year.

[Austin]

Impossible to set time frame for MMRCA deal: Antony

Union Defence Minister A K Antony on Monday said it was not possible to set a time frame for signing the much-awaited deal for the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) with French company Dassault Aviation.

The contract, said to be worth nearly Rs 1lakh crore, is still at the negotiation stage, a year-and-a-half after the French firm emerged as the lowest bidder in the tender which was floated in August 2007.

“Given the complexity of the proposal, no definite time frame can be fixed at this stage (for signing the deal),” Antony said in a written reply in Parliament.

“The proposal for procurement of the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft is currently at the stage of commercial discussions with the L1 vendor, Dassault Aviation and hence the terms and conditions for purchase including the delivery schedule are yet to be finalised,” he said.

However, the Defence Minister pointed out that the Request for Proposal–defence parlance for a commercial tender – stipulated that the delivery of the 18 flyaway aircraft should take place between the third and fourth years after the signing of the contract. The manufacturing of the remaining 108 fighters under licence from Dassault will take place here from the 4th to the 11th year after the signing of the contract.

[Austin]

So it seems within 11 years we will get 126 Rafales from the time we sign the deal , while 18 Rafale as fly away will come between 3-4th year

[viveks]

myth deals ...it will be in somebody's dreams that we will fly the rafale...

[Nihat]

IAF would be best off not taking into account the presence of the rafale in its future combat scenario.for the life of me I can't understand what kind of urgent negotiations take more than one full year , especially given the situation and threats we face

[abhik]

Impossible to set time frame for MMRCA deal: Antony

However, the Defence Minister pointed out that the Request for Proposal–defence parlance for a commercial tender – stipulated that the delivery of the 18 flyaway aircraft should take place between the third and fourth years after the signing of the contract. The manufacturing of the remaining 108 fighters under licence from Dassault will take place here from the 4th to the 11th year after the signing of the contract.

Open pooch to all members, what is the number 1 reason, the raison d'etre of buying the MRCA?
Was just reminded of some forum members who prophecised that China would attack before 2016 or there abouts as India would become much stronger militarily because of the induction of the MRCA amongst other reasons . LCA + MKI is the way to go.

[svinayak]

Open pooch to all members, what is the number 1 reason, the raison d'etre of buying the MRCA?
Was just reminded of some forum members who prophecised that China would attack before 2016 or there abouts as India would become much stronger militarily because of the induction of the MRCA amongst other reasons . LCA + MKI is the way to go.

This is a gro strategic decision of the future where there is going to be two major blocks in the world. India would end up in one.

[kuldipchager]

We do not have to waist our money with French fighter. we can upgraded our LCA in future. We can let the Private company to work on LCA with two engine fighter/Bomber With Kevery engine.Even this engine is low thrust we can upgrade in future with higher thrust engine. It will be much better and cheaper. Even kevery is KN 80 engine ,160 KN can carry lot of load and deliver at long distance.

[wig]

IAF to upgrade vintage Avro aircraft

One of the oldest warhorses of the Indian Air Force, the Avro transport aircraft will soon get a fresh lease of life, enabling it to soldier on for at least another decade or so.

IAF sources said the upgradation suite envisioned for the Avro includes incorporating a radar, installing an auto-pilot system and a new communication system, besides better avionics. Studies have shown that the aircraft still retains some residual technical life and their life extension is feasible.

Though the initial batches of Avro aircraft, also known as HS-748, were initially procured from the United Kingdom and later these were licence-produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the upgrade will be undertaken by a private vendor, sources said. The MiG 21 is the only aircraft in IAF inventory that matches Avro in vintage.

The move to upgrade these vintage aircraft comes in the backdrop of major acquisitions hanging fire. While the contract for VVIP helicopters from Italy has run into rough weather, the procurement of the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft is still a long way from finalisation. The process to procure light utility helicopters remains grounded.

The IAF also plans to replace the existing Avro fleet and is seeking 56 transport aircraft in this category at an estimated price of $ three billion. The proposed aircraft would have a payload capacity of 6-8 tonnes.

The IAF began inducting Avro twin-engine turboprop aircraft in 1964. With 64 aircraft, this fleet formed the backbone of the IAF’s airlift capability till AN-12 and AN-32 were procured. At present about 30-odd aircraft still remain in service, mostly relegated to training and communication roles.

Avros also formed part of the IAF’s Communication Squadron designated for VVIP transport till this role was taken over the Brazilian Embrarer-135 executive jets in 2005.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2013/20130508/nation.htm#4

[merlin]

Avro upgrades by a private vendor? I wonder who it will be, assuming its going to be an Indian private vendor.

[Yagnasri]

I think it is TATA.

[Indranil]

This is a very smart move. I think the IAF is thinking like me . For making it economically viable they are going for a common replacement of Avros and the An-32s. But they are smarter even.
1. Upgrading the Avros for now allows an uninterrupted assembly line producing 145-180 planes from 2020-2021 onwards.
2. In case of delays, they have a padding of 2-3 years.
4. Upgrading the Avros first and then building the complete plane is an easier learning curve.

Here is the layman timeline in my head.
1. Finalize the private agency and extent of upgrades by 2014. Upgrade the aircrafts by 2017.
2. Identify a common plane to replace the Avros and An-32s (combined order of around 200 aircrafts) by 2017.
3. First 16 aircrafts come from the OEM by 2020. Aircrafts start rolling off the Indian assembly line by 2020
5. Indian made aircrafts start active duty from 2021 replacing the Avros first and then the An-32s starting 2025.

[vic]

We need two types of props in category of 20 ton MTOW. One primarily Military with over powerful engines for short take off landing, rugged landing gear and ramp, to replace An-32. Requirement is around 100 to 150. Something like C-27s

Second is primarily Civilian oriented with few military purchases like ATR-72.


Actually MTA is not an AN-32 replacement as it going into the MTOW category of 80-100 tons MTOW. But after calling it An-32 replacement, the actual An-32 replacement will come as follow on of AVRO.

So we need MLA Medium lift aircraft for military and RTA Regional transport aircraft for civilian use both in 20 ton MTOW category.

Turbofan powered NCA and MTA will be different category of 60-100 tons MTOW.

[nits]

As per Recent Reports in next 2- 3 years (Provided LCA is rolled out in sufficient #'s which i strongly want) all MIG - 21 will be phased out; now i have a silly questions... we are talking about phasing out more then 200 Aircraft here...

What happens to aircraft after they are phased out; some goes to Museum, some are installed on famous places around city etc as monument... but # we are phasing out is huge... do we scrap them ( after taking our some vital\usable parts) or we use them in target practice... Q is just arising as # of aircraft being phased out is huze...

[Sanku]

^^^ The aircrafts are scrapped, all the internals are scrapped as well (after destroying any thing sensitive)

In the older a/c the aluminum etc fetched a tidy sum, am not sure how a composite part would be scrapped though.

[nits]

after removing internal's can they be used for target practice...

[Sanku]

after removing internal's can they be used for target practice...

A flying targets you mean? But how would they fly? And who would risk flying a plane as a target?

[nits]

after removing internal's can they be used for target practice...

A flying targets you mean? But how would they fly? And who would risk flying a plane as a target?

Of course not sir; i mean ground targets for Air To ground Firing or even ground to ground target practice by tanks\artillery etc...