Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sanku » 09 May 2013 15:43

nits wrote:Of course not sir; i mean ground targets for Air To ground Firing or even ground to ground target practice by tanks\artillery etc...


I think there are better uses for high quality aluminum scrap than to make a target, which can be made with ply etc, but then I suppose it could be done, I just dont see the use, of carting tons of metal from one end of the country to blow it up, when it could be done by locally acquiring cheap metal.

At least I am not aware of this approach being adopted, but if some knows, I would be glad to learn.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nits » 09 May 2013 16:27

^^^ hmm make sense Sir :) though love to see a Graveyard like US has in Tucson, Arizona

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 09 May 2013 16:44

aerospace grade aluminium is good..can be remelted and used for tools, utensils, sheets etc.

for composites we havent seen the retirement of any high-composite ac yet, but perhaps chopped up into granules and use for road construction material like they do with old tires.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 May 2013 21:35

Maybe there are 2 deals here. TOI today reports a Rs 13K Crore deal to replace Avros. Total 56 aircraft, with 16 procured from OEM and 40 manufactured under license by a private Indian Production Agency

This is indeed awesome news to kick-start the private aviation industry in India.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-sets-ball-rolling-for-Rs-13000-crore-Air-Force-deal/articleshow/19971315.cms

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 09 May 2013 22:17



Rehashed news. I searched for the RFP on the Indian airforce site. No recent RFP turned up. There is no reason for IAF to go forward with this. What has changed since last time?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sree » 10 May 2013 12:41

To Nits's question about the range of things that happen to airframes when a type is retired: Apart from use as gate-guardians at service establishment and similar, when the Gnats in particular were phased out, I was told by serving IAF officers of the time that the IAF came out with a scheme, quite generous by the standards of the time, to gift one stripped-down Gnat airframe to any educational institution that asked for one.

I also heard the scheme was not regarded as a great success - other than service-affiliated schools, not many took up the offer; there were a lot of quibbles; displays were inappropriate and ineffectively protected; and all in all it burnt up an awful lot of the services' management time (and sometimes some working-party time).

Not sure if the circumstances would be different today - there's probably less of a sense of being under financial pressure in the services; there is maybe more time availability; there are certainly more privately-funded schools around; and maybe more awareness among the schools?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby SKrishna » 10 May 2013 13:12

... was told by serving IAF officers of the time that the IAF came out with a scheme, quite generous by the standards of the time, to gift one stripped-down Gnat airframe to any educational institution that asked for one.


My school TAFS, Subroto Park had one in front of the junior school building. But in very poor condition at that time (1993-95), which birds found very convenient for nesting and other activities. But since there was no signage around, nobody had any clue about the type / origin of the aircraft (not even the teaching staff). Dunno if its still there?

Considering this was their fate at a services run school I wonder how they fared at other schools...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 10 May 2013 13:42

what exactly is achieved by appointing a obsolete 1960s fighter as a gate guardian? anyone who had a mind to join as a pilot will be put off by that look.

what is needed is soothing psyops materials, video games that pit the IAF against others , books lots of them writtten by ex-servicemen, IAF sponsoring sports & cultural events in schools and colleges rather than makers of alcohol and fanta, IAF logo merchandise sold in stores everything from bomber jackets , sunglasses, beautiful diecast models, posters, glossy coffee table yearbooks ....

to all extent they are invisble behind high walls and gated colonies.

the natgeo mission program was the only deviation from this set rule of being invisible.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 10 May 2013 13:54

squadron stickers widely available... more mango people at airshows...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 10 May 2013 14:27

sorry to be harsh, but the entire VV science musuem needs to be torn town and rebuilt on a 5X scale and 100X the funding level to be anywhere presentable. the dust covered marut in the weed encroached garden is just showcasing obsolescence and mediocrity, eliciting a good laugh from passing ASEAN types no doubt. either do it world class, or dont bother in the metros atleast.

kids these days are browsing the internet from age2. they have no need for tin and sheet metal crude airplanes and models like our generation did. they also have access to books on vehicles and transport in any bookshop and most parents do give them a few. so they see glossy pics of rafale and JSF in the book and go see a broken marut model in the museum..a total letdown and just reinforces that bubbly feeling of self-flagellation "we are not good enough"

same goes for the HAL museum. ..... its not been changed 1 inch in the 8 yrs I have observed it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sree » 10 May 2013 14:38

Agree with Marten, and to some extent, respectfully disagree with Singha and Lalmohan Ji:

- Even these elderly aircraft - and particularly, one as iconic to India as the Gnat - do inspire kids, I can confirm. Think how the British still milk displays and mock-ups of the Spitfire; for some years after the '65 war, I thought, India was making a genuine effort to make the Gnat a symbol that would hold about the same position in the Indian psyche that the Spitfire does in the British. I personally know Indian air warriors who remember some solitary display aircraft somewhere, as a key contributor to their childhood dreams of aviation; and

- Crowds at airshows in India have never, to my knowledge, been thin. At several airshows some years ago (Marina Beach in Chennai, Marine Drive in Mumbai, Shankamukham Beach in Trivandrum) the crowds were so gigantic, the police were almost completely overwhelmed. All BRFites who have been to AI know what the crowds and the traffic are like there; a posting as AOC Yelahanka is regarded with some dismay by our senior transport jocks, because anyone posted to that position knows it is a particularly hot seat for those few days.

I remember the Gnat at TAFS; my college room-mate and my wife are both alumni of TAFS :). But I take the point, that if even TAFS, whose foundation stone was laid by the late Mrs Arjan Singh, couldn't display it in an appropriate manner, it's a lot harder for a school less privileged with IAF connections :(

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 10 May 2013 15:34

>> Think how the British still milk displays and mock-ups of the Spitfire

Brits have a gigantic footprint of WW2 films, books, docus and hagiography to build the base. tons of war museums, tons of vets who wrote books and a lot of airshows and airfields for planespotters.

its a ecosystem, we arent even in the kiddie playing crib vs that ecosystem.

khan ecosystem is ofcourse even bigger.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 10 May 2013 15:46

duxford airfield (near cambridge) - (imperial war museum) have preserved ww2 warbirds and regularly fly them at air displays - they have done a lot of work in maintaining those old birds and raising awareness and interest in aviation for school kids and others alike
they have a very good battle of britain exhibit which now includes luftwaffe elements too

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby A Sharma » 10 May 2013 17:05

India’s First Unique, Indigenous MCW Shop Inaugurated

May 10, 2013 : Mr. Jitendra Singh, Minister of State for Defence, inaugurated the state-of-the-art Manned Chamber Welding (MCW) shop, the only of its kind in the country and second in the world at HAL’s Koraput (Sunabeda) facilities in Odisha yesterday in presence of Mr. R.K. Mathur, Secretary Defence Production. "India and Russia are the only two countries having this facility", said Dr. R. K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL.

The minister lauded HAL’s efforts. The Indian equipment has been developed indigenously by HAL with help of other vendors. Dr. Tyagi handed over a symbol of robotic argon chamber dedicated to the nation to the Minister.

Robotic tungsten inert gas (TIG) welding system in argon chamber plays an important role in welding of complicated assemblies for aero engine in total argon environment that ensures quality and reliability. The Indian MCW system at HAL is unique as it offers both robotic and human (manual) welding in argon atmosphere while the Russian welding is carried out only manually. In this robotic system, HAL does welding of 17 major modules of Sukhoi engine. The welding is of high quality and free of defects. The entire outer casing module of the engine is welded inside this chamber. The welder working inside has all life support and health monitoring features.

Air Marshal, S. Sukumar, DCAS, IAF, Mr. S. Subrahmanyan, HAL’s MD (MiG Complex), Mr. Aniruddh Kumar, HAL Executive Director (Koraput Division), top MoD and HAL officials were present on the occasion

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 10 May 2013 19:25

Production of 40 aircraft is too small an order to set up meaningful production line and ancilliary system network. One requires confirmed order of something like 150-200 aircraft to achieve something like real indigenisation. Is IAF doing an Arjun, LCA, Pinaka or OFB 155 howitzer on it?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sree » 11 May 2013 18:50

Singha wrote: ... Brits have a gigantic footprint of WW2 films, books, docus and hagiography to build the base. tons of war museums, tons of vets who wrote books and a lot of airshows and airfields for planespotters.

its a ecosystem, we arent even in the kiddie playing crib vs that ecosystem.

khan ecosystem is ofcourse even bigger.


Singha Saar, you're absolutely right; countries like the UK and the Khanate have a whole ecosystem catering to this interest group that we're only just beginning to develop - but we are beginning; and this brings me to a point I've often made: Who is better qualified to contribute to building such an ecosystem than the likes of yourself and Lalmohan Ji? Guys like you should, if I may suggest it, start writing, setting up photoblogs, and / or otherwise publicising what you know, outside of BRF - this is a comfort zone, where you're assured of an interested audience, but it's like preaching to the choir.

BR is a start, but building that ecosystem needs to go further.

Jmt and the usual disclaimers, but definitely strongly-felt :)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Anurag » 13 May 2013 03:10

Another Su-30 squadron in Thanjavur coming up this month. I believe the first Tejas Sq. is also set up be raised here. I count a total of 14 sq. by 2018.

New Sukhoi base to cover south India

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 020893.cms

India has so far inducted over 170 of the 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia in deals worth Rs 55,717 crore ($12.4 billion). Pune and Bareilly already have two Sukhoi squadrons each, while Tezpur, Chabua, Halwara and Jodhpur have a squadron each.

Another squadron is coming up at Sirsa, with Tezpur, Chabua, Jodhpur and Halwara slated to get their second squadrons thereafter. "Thanjavur will get the last Sukhoi squadron by 2018,'' he said.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 13 May 2013 03:27

Hi A,

I believe the first Tejas Sq. is also set up be raised here


Sulur?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Anurag » 13 May 2013 03:35

NRao wrote:Hi A,

I believe the first Tejas Sq. is also set up be raised here


Sulur?


Hi Niranjan, Yes you're right. The first Tejas sq. will be raised at Sulur. I stand corrected.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 13 May 2013 06:43

imo yelehanka in bangalore which currently hosts a few AN32 and Mi17 as training base for transport command could also be enlarged to become a major logistical hub for operations over the sea and to islands in IOR...if there is land on the other side..on one side the highway limits the expansion.

maybe trivandrum is a better place for that role though. or a new hangout near rameswaram.

ofcourse goes without saying that our first PAKDA/Tu160 sq will be based in yelehanka....so that drooling and panting brf folk can camp in the village nearby and scoop photos :twisted:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 14 May 2013 12:15

I was wonder why we kept on with lic production of Mig-21 variant from 60's till late 80's but did not opted for lic production of the more advanced Mig-23 model to replace the Mig-21 in late 70's .....but went of Mig-27 lic production , considering they had an almost identical frame we could have lic produced the Mig-23 too.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 14 May 2013 12:18

mig23MF was almost obsolete when we got it - we got m2k and then mig29's shortly afterwards - the MF was not viable to operate for much longer. the Mig23BN and Mig27 were for ground attack roles only, with iirc the BN being an interim type till enough 27's were delivered

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 14 May 2013 12:52

The Mig-23BN or Mig-27 didnt have a radar so it lacked a true all weather capability.

Mig-23MLD was a definative variant of Mig-23 and it is considered as a capable fighter , Yes we got the M2K and later Mig-29 but we missed the opportunity to lic produce it.

Here is a video i came across of IAF Mig-23BN its written the last BN to fly in the world

http://youtu.be/5FfPqBvLbHc

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nachiket » 15 May 2013 23:26

Austin wrote:I was wonder why we kept on with lic production of Mig-21 variant from 60's till late 80's but did not opted for lic production of the more advanced Mig-23 model to replace the Mig-21 in late 70's .....but went of Mig-27 lic production , considering they had an almost identical frame we could have lic produced the Mig-23 too.

The Mig-23MF was larger and more expensive than the Mig-21 but I don't think the IAF deemed it good enough to deal with the paki F-16's. We never bought a whole lot of the MFs and they were the first versions of the 23/27 that were decommissioned. The IAF probably wanted a really modern fighter to be license produced, something that could match whatever the chinese or pakis could throw at us. That's why we looked at license producing the M2k and then the Mig-29 but financial pressures etc. put paid to those plans.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sankum » 16 May 2013 08:31

It is 15nos sq of Su30s @ 18nos/sq till 2018.

2nos sq each at Tezpur,Chauba, Pune, Halwara, Baraeilly, Jodhpur, Thanjavur and one sq at Sirsa for a total of 15 sq.

The phasing out of mig 21 bison is being delayed by 2 years to 2020 so that additional su30, rafale, Lca sqs can be formed to maintain a minimum 34sq fighter fleet for IAF.

17sq Su30, 3sq LCA, 2sq Rafale, 6sq Jaguar, 3sq Mig29, 3sq mirage for a total of 34 sq by 2020.

If Su 30 are to be limited at 15 sq then Mig 21 bison phasing out will have to delayed by further 2 years so that additional Lca and Rafales sq can be formed.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby srai » 16 May 2013 11:11

^^^

No. It's 14 squadrons. Thanjavur and Sirsa are only getting 1 squadron each.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby sankum » 16 May 2013 13:13

I agree. Latest TOI report says so.

Earlier reports said that south will get two Su30 sq and two LCA sq while North East will get 4nos su30 sq and sqs of Lca and MMRCA.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 16 May 2013 13:21

MRCA will most likely be based in bagdogra, hashimara (which are close together in north bengal) and kalaikunda much farther south.
panagarh and kalaikunda are claimed as future bases of C130/C17/tankers/phalcons for the eastern sector. I am not sure whats the present status of panagarh. why not expand Dum Dum itself as a major transport command hub - its much easier to base people and source materials in Dum dum vs a isolated base somewhere.

I feel Silchar or somewhere in barak valley would merit a fighter base too. there was some tiny airstrip in mizoram where they were looking to base some 4 Bisons last yr.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 16 May 2013 13:49

dum dum would make a lot of sense, particularly if we also exploit kolkata port for logistics - from vizag or even the west coast via contaniers
also looking ahead, kolkata needs to be the hub of a look east stance across the BoB and down to Malacca with the Andamans as a forward bastion
in fact its the perfect pivot for north or south for managing the eastern sector

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby maz » 16 May 2013 22:31

Gallery of P-8I arrival at NAS Rajali

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... AS+Rajali/

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_20292 » 16 May 2013 22:39

what does it contain?

radar?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby ramana » 17 May 2013 01:12

X-post....
Paul wrote:
Weapon accuracy was a real concern. During upgrade trials, an upgraded MiG-27 conducted an HALR laser-pod assisted drop of a 500-kg dumb bomb from 7.5-km. Its missed distance was 15-metres. This was a dumb bomb, not a PGM.


Key reason why IAF is holding off on stocking up on PGMs??? the MIG 27 and Jaguar upgrades have provided enough accuracy to the venerable bomb trucks force in the IAF.



Does the SU-30 have similar stats for dumb bombs?
Does it has a Laser aiming pod?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby srai » 17 May 2013 11:31

Singha wrote:MRCA will most likely be based in bagdogra, hashimara (which are close together in north bengal) and kalaikunda much farther south.
panagarh and kalaikunda are claimed as future bases of C130/C17/tankers/phalcons for the eastern sector. I am not sure whats the present status of panagarh. why not expand Dum Dum itself as a major transport command hub - its much easier to base people and source materials in Dum dum vs a isolated base somewhere.

I feel Silchar or somewhere in barak valley would merit a fighter base too. there was some tiny airstrip in mizoram where they were looking to base some 4 Bisons last yr.


According to news report from last year, the bases for 126 MRCA will be Ambala, Jodpur and Hashimara.

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review
...
IAF has already identified Ambala and Jodhpur airbases in the western sector, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector, to house the first MMRCA squadrons.
...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Rupak » 17 May 2013 13:19

Austin,
To understand why the 23BN was not license built one has to look at the performance characteristics of both aircraft, as well as, the requirement for which they were bought. The Russians themselves alawys saw the 23BN as an interim solution, and in any event in the 1970s, the IAF was looking for a replacement of its large fleet for Canberra and Hunters, which were getting long in the tooth for strike duties. Theyevaluated a range of strike aircraft including the Mirage F1, Buccaneer, Viggen and ultimately settled on the Jaguar for the DPSA role. The Viggen was dropped because the Americans wouldn't permit re-export of the engine, and the aircraft that most impressed that the IAF, i.e. the Su-24, wasn't for sale. The Russians tried to flog us the T-22 instead! It is only when the IAF considered a replacement for the Su-7s under requirements drawn up for a mud-mover (TASA) , that the Russians offered the MiG-27, then still under refinement, with the 23BN as an interim fly away solution. The MiG-27 was truly optimized for ground attack. The MiG-27 was intended to fly missions in a lo-lo profile, the MiG-23BN's variable intake ramps and exhaust nozzles were discarded in favor of a simpler fixed configuration, reducing weight and maintenance requirements. The aircraft also has larger, heavy-duty landing gear for rough field operations airfields and improved avionics. The MiG-27 also offered a far more powerful gun armament. Most importantly, it offered significant fuel economny, thereby allowing a larger payload to be carried over a much greater distance than the 23BN.

As for the 23MF, it really wasn't on the IAF's radar until it becam known that the Pakistanis were getting the F-16, and as such really was a panic buy. Pakistani plans were known in 1980 (and confirmed in 1981). And the first MF squadron was raised in May 1982, whereas the first F-16 squadron was raised in January 1983.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 17 May 2013 13:27

BN had true variable sweep (like the MF) but the 27 had 3 pre set positions - i think that simplified the wing structure and machinery signficantly

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 17 May 2013 21:59

Thanks Rupak , How I wished we had the Su-24 instead of Mig-27 !

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Surya » 17 May 2013 22:26

you, me and a lot of other jingoes :)

I

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby ramana » 17 May 2013 23:16

When its not on table why regret?

Should take what is available amnd make best use of it.

The Mig27 upgrade is very good.
Only wish it were there during Kargil.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Prem » 18 May 2013 01:22

Did they change ,upgrade the the Engine of 27 too ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby kuldipchager » 18 May 2013 01:54

Jhujar

Post subject: Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

PostPosted: 18 May 2013 01:22



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Did they change ,upgrade the the Engine of 27 too ?



[b][i]Yes the news engine the one we use in SU 30 engine have been replaced the old R 29 engine. It have more thrust and reliable.[/b][/i]


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