Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Jun 2013 12:18

koti wrote:What is the Mass + CG on the center of the missile(pic above) mean? Center of Gravity? Why should that be painted?


done on test vehicles for optical tracking and analysis purposes

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2013 20:57

Re: The Saturn engine for HJT -36


Circa 2007 news report:

AL-55i Engine for HJT-36

Now it has 100 hours life?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 06 Jun 2013 21:31

Lalmohan wrote:
koti wrote:What is the Mass + CG on the center of the missile(pic above) mean? Center of Gravity? Why should that be painted?


done on test vehicles for optical tracking and analysis purposes

For the tests, they would tape over the + with a Secchi disk for better visibility. But the + sign is very useful for handling. During development, they don't have custom jigs. For generic jigs, it is useful to know where the CG is for hoisting, support etc.

Notice the change in the hoisting mechanism. It is always right above the CG.

Without booster:
Image

With booster:
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 06 Jun 2013 22:12

ramana wrote:Re: The Saturn engine for HJT -36


Circa 2007 news report:

AL-55i Engine for HJT-36

Now it has 100 hours life?


Yes it has 100 hours now and plan is to increase to 500 hrs contract with HAL already signed
http://www.defencenow.com/news/641/russ ... craft.html

a fresh batch of ten AL-551 engines is being produced which have been contracted for delivery in 2011–2012. Russia signed a pact with state-run HAL wherein the service life of the AL-551 engine will be increased by 500 hours. NPO Saturn will be pursuing the contract further and continue its research to optimize the potential of the engine.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 06 Jun 2013 22:20

Any info on the service life of previous snecma Turbomeca Larzac 04-H-20 engine that was used initially ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby ramana » 07 Jun 2013 02:17

Per Wiki:

The first and second prototypes of the HJT-36, labelled PT-1 and PT-2, flew on 7 March 2003 and in March 2004, respectively. The program was then delayed with the Air Force assessing the SNECMA Turbomeca Larzac engine, with 14.1 kN of thrust, as under-powered. In response, in August 2005, HAL reached a deal to replace the SNECMA engine with the NPO Saturn AL-55I with 16.9 kN of thrust. The deal also provided for license-production of the engine in India by HAL.[2]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HJT-36_Sitara

Old BRM article on Sitara:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE5-5/Rao.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 08 Jun 2013 15:49

Surya wrote:
Did Mr. BROWNE THINK OF THE MINDSET HE WILL BE INGRAINING IN IAF TRAINEE PILOTS FOR NEXT 37 YEARS? Trained on Swiss Pilatus and then on British Hawks. They will never sit in a Desi plane...mentally handicapped from the start itself like our Army is for Russian stuff today.


there is something to be said for this line

Its worthy of a thread on its own


No, there is nothing to be said for this line, except that it is complete nonsesnse.

A kid who has been through 3 years of NDA, 1 year of AFA, who is prepared to give his life for his service, his comrades and his country, whose parents and family accept that this kid is in one of the most dangerous professions known to man and may be snatched away from them by fate, this kid is NOT mentally handicapped. This kid is a SUPER HERO. And the country owes it to this kid that he is trained properly, by competent instructors, and in safe aircraft. It does not matter if the aircraft is Swiss, Korean, Indian or American.

Indian special forces who use the Tavor gun from Israel are not mentally handicapped compared with the infantry forces using INSAS.

The Indian Navy submariner in the INS Chakra is not mentally handicapped compared with the submariners who will crew the INS Arihant.

The person who made this ridiculos claim used a line from the advertising campaign of an American fizzy drinks company. Too much of this drink appears to have done away with any sense of irony.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26622 » 09 Jun 2013 13:08

eklavya wrote: It does not matter if the aircraft is Swiss, Korean, Indian or American.


Then why are we spending money on LCA, Arjun ..... Their are 'better and proven' imported variants like F16, Abrams. Your logic suggests 'Just buy them outright'. Then see how long you can fight a war before pawning out every bit of yourself a hundred times over or running with a begging bowl to your foreign masters for help when china slaps you.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 09 Jun 2013 15:44

nik wrote:
eklavya wrote: It does not matter if the aircraft is Swiss, Korean, Indian or American.


Then why are we spending money on LCA, Arjun ..... Their are 'better and proven' imported variants like F16, Abrams. Your logic suggests 'Just buy them outright'. Then see how long you can fight a war before pawning out every bit of yourself a hundred times over or running with a begging bowl to your foreign masters for help when china slaps you.


You buy outright what you cannot produce to spec and on time within country. What's so hard to understand.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby RKumar » 09 Jun 2013 16:14

eklavya wrote:You buy outright what you cannot produce to spec and on time within country. What's so hard to understand.


You can show these expensive toys but can't fight a winning war. Is it too hard for understand?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23694 » 09 Jun 2013 16:31

^^^^^^^^
I thought winning war is about leadership + capability
These expensive toys give us the capability which is desperately required and if there is any problem somewhere
because of which LCA is still not in service then what to do , keep on waiting ?.
When LCA will come it will further augment our capability but for that dependency is on the designer and manufacturer and not on the French or Services.
BTW any idea by when Rafale deal is expected ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 09 Jun 2013 16:36

RKumar wrote:
eklavya wrote:You buy outright what you cannot produce to spec and on time within country. What's so hard to understand.


You can show these expensive toys but can't fight a winning war. Is it too hard for understand?


What is your suggestion for fighting a winning war?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby RKumar » 09 Jun 2013 20:57

eklavya wrote:What is your suggestion for fighting a winning war?


How we can win a war when we even don't have local produce bullets (After INSAS replacement)? Forget about winning a war, we are not even able to fight a war which is forced upon us time to time. e.g. During 1999, PAF F-16 planes were grounded, because of lack of supplies. LCA has suffered because embargo after 1998 n-test. GSLV has suffered because of missile control. Our nuclear program is again suffered because of powerful lobbies. We get these toys after paying through our nose but we don't have the real freedom to use them. (Either directly or indirectly spares etc)


dhiraj wrote:^^^^^^^^
I thought winning war is about leadership + capability
These expensive toys give us the capability which is desperately required and if there is any problem somewhere
because of which LCA is still not in service then what to do , keep on waiting ?.
When LCA will come it will further augment our capability but for that dependency is on the designer and manufacturer and not on the French or Services.
BTW any idea by when Rafale deal is expected ?


I guess you would also agree without leadership, capability has no use. But with leadership and courage, even less then perfect systems can do wounder. Leadership, can slowly builds capability then depending upon others.

We are waiting since 2 decades for MMRCA and we waited for 25 years for Hawks. Was that also problem of designer and manufacturer? And did IAF took pain or leadership to induct 3 legged cheeta into service like our neighbors? I am asking this questions

No offense but

Are the time slippage and price overrun only problem of DRDO?
Who else can do R&D on complex, long development time, investment intensive and limited number of examples projects?
Would you like to keep buying imported stuff, because local product are not upto mark during first try?
Which product is gold plated from the very start? Could you care to list such products?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Surya » 09 Jun 2013 21:05

What is your suggestion for fighting a winning war?


one could argue we never fought a winning war

we just pushed the other guy back enough and then the outside powers made sure he survived
to hound us again and again

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby kuldipchager » 09 Jun 2013 21:15

How we can win a war when we even don't have local produce bullets (After INSAS replacement)? Forget about winning a war, we are not even able to fight a war which is forced upon us time to time. e.g. During 1999, PAF F-16 planes were grounded, because of lack of supplies. LCA has suffered because embargo after 1998 n-test. GSLV has suffered because of missile control. Our nuclear program is again suffered because of powerful lobbies. We get these toys after paying through our nose but we don't have the real freedom to use them. (Either directly or indirectly spares etc)


Why some people feel so negative un less they are writing the words for somebody.
I do believe one thing if our nation is weak and down the hill then usa and china would have destroyed already.We should believe in our products and write good about it not always write shit againt them.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby RKumar » 09 Jun 2013 22:45

kuldipchager wrote:How we can win a war when we even don't have local produce bullets (After INSAS replacement)? Forget about winning a war, we are not even able to fight a war which is forced upon us time to time. e.g. During 1999, PAF F-16 planes were grounded, because of lack of supplies. LCA has suffered because embargo after 1998 n-test. GSLV has suffered because of missile control. Our nuclear program is again suffered because of powerful lobbies. We get these toys after paying through our nose but we don't have the real freedom to use them. (Either directly or indirectly spares etc)


Why some people feel so negative un less they are writing the words for somebody.
I do believe one thing if our nation is weak and down the hill then usa and china would have destroyed already.We should believe in our products and write good about it not always write shit againt them.


Sorry, if I sounded negative to you. But I am advocating local LCA, GSLV, N-bum, Arjun, INSAS and list goes on. I am advocating to use imperfect system and using continuous feedback lets make them perfect by doing fine tuning. Local content is the only way, we can win today's and future wars.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23694 » 09 Jun 2013 23:03

Who else can do R&D on complex, long development time, investment intensive and limited number of examples projects?
Would you like to keep buying imported stuff, because local product are not upto mark during first try?
Which product is gold plated from the very start? Could you care to list such products?
[/quote]

Which product is gold plated from the very start? Could you care to list such products? : how about F 22 .. :P
but seriously I think i clarified that as an when LCA comes in numbers they will augment IAF numbers and future variants much
better capability.
Problem i have are the following :
1. Not buying Rafale does not imply that the LCA program will get a boost. Both are mutually exclusive program and we should have both
quickly.
2. I am not interested in imported or indigenous product . We need product which sends shivers across the enemy camp. Simple. If it is an indigenous product then it will be a very proud moment . But till then we cannot wait. Today LCA is not available in numbers and once Rafale deal is done we can have them. Today if Rafale is not available to IAF it is not because of some production line or technical issue but because of delay in negotiation.
Even after Rafale and PAK FA , there will be ample room for LCA Mk 1 to Mk.X and AMCA Mk1 to Mk. X :)

RKumar wrote:But with leadership and courage, even less then perfect systems can do wounder. Leadership, can slowly builds capability then depending upon others.


We have already fought number of battles and won just relying on courage and leadership with less than perfect systems. Last ex being Kargil. Honestly for me its enough and there should be NO further sacrifices for want of better technology or capability. At least this much the country owe the armed forces that they have the best capability to complement there courage when they go for the next battle.

Tell me one thing, I read somewhere about issues between design agency and production agency. Now how and why such things happen. Why should such things ever happen and if that is the reason for delay in LCA coming in numbers or FOC then its really tragic.

RKumar wrote:But I am advocating local LCA, GSLV, N-bum, Arjun, INSAS and list goes on

and semi - cryo and GSLV Mk.3 and all but please bring them . Develop Arihant and all , but buy 10 nuke sub from Russia till we have number of our own.
Regarding making imperfect things perfect , great , please do, but in lab and test facilities and not at battlefield .

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby RKumar » 09 Jun 2013 23:34

dhiraj wrote:Which product is gold plated from the very start? Could you care to list such products? : how about F 22 .. :P


If you say F22, then you must be joking ... should I quote the problems. The most important one ... F-22 has been plagued by unresolved problems with its pilot oxygen systems. It is advanced but still imperfect ... it was inducted in 2005. Could please also list few other such products?

Should I also say about F-35, it will be inducted with limited capability.

dhiraj wrote:Regarding making imperfect things perfect , great , please do, but in lab and test facilities and not at battlefield .


That is the problem with IAF and IA ... With this attitude there would never be product developed (neither F-22 or F-35 or even Rafale .. check how many trenches they have.)


dhiraj wrote: Develop Arihant and all , but buy 10 nuke sub from Russia till we have number of our own


Go ahead and buy and try to modify it and put a n-bum in it. Then you come and let me know. We could not even add air version Barhmos on Su-30 MKI because we don't own IP. We can't buy spare parts outside Russia even when they can't supply ... should I keep listing issues....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23694 » 09 Jun 2013 23:46

RKumar wrote:If you say F22, then you must be joking

I was definitely joking ... come on have some sense of humor :D
I know the problems.

RKumar wrote:That is the problem with IAF and IA ... With this attitude there would never be product developed

Bring on the numbers please then quote at least for the LCA

BTW you really made great selective quoting of my post

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby RKumar » 10 Jun 2013 16:45

dhiraj wrote:but seriously I think i clarified that as an when LCA comes in numbers they will augment IAF numbers and future variants much better capability.
{there will not be any future variant if LCA mk1 is not accepted today}

Problem i have are the following :
1. Not buying Rafale does not imply that the LCA program will get a boost. Both are mutually exclusive program and we should have both quickly.
{One of the purpose behind buying Rafale was that it will help HAL/India to sort out AMCA R&D and LCA production issues. Which I don't see happening.}

2. I am not interested in imported or indigenous product . {That is the root cause, which services don't want to analysis or understand.} We need product which sends shivers across the enemy camp. Simple. If it is an indigenous product then it will be a very proud moment . But till then we cannot wait.{We are waiting Rafale, how many years?} Today LCA is not available in numbers and once Rafale deal is done we can have them.{Dear Sir, only LCA is available today, IAF can have Rafale when Dassault agrees to terms and conditions mentioned in RFI.} Today if Rafale is not available to IAF it is not because of some production line or technical issue but because of delay in negotiation. {Forget about production line of Rafale for another 3-6 years. IAF may get LCA MK-2 version first.}
Even after Rafale and PAK FA , there will be ample room for LCA Mk 1 to Mk.X and AMCA Mk1 to Mk. X :) {To be honest, what is your time line for PAK FA? Personally, I don't see AMCA coming alive if LCA MK1 is not matured by IAF. Weapons are matured in fields not in labs.}

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sagar G » 10 Jun 2013 20:58

eklavya wrote:The RAF chief said in 2011 that the Typhoons beat the Su-30MKI. His words were "well, they lost".

http://twocircles.net/2011jul24/british ... cises.html

And, the superiority of the Rafale vs the Typhoon is laid out in some detail here (report signed by the Swiss Air Force chief):

http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/12332.pdf


Now you are going nowhere with such "evidences" you are coming up with. First let's see about the Typhoon vs. Sukhoi duel

While the RAF fielded some of their most-experienced and highly-qualified pilots, some of them being very senior performance evaluators in active service, the IAF pilots were a mix of 'young to middle-level pilots' from the 'Rhinos' squadron. The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI's observed superior manouevring in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon's agility in the air.


If IAF really wanted to show the Su-30 MKI's capabilities why would it have sent "young to middle-level pilots" against "most-experienced and highly-qualified pilots". From your own awful link (plz take a look at the source before posting)

"The issue is you are comparing technology and people. So, more often than not, technology can give you a great edge, a great lead. But actually it is always the people (behind the machines) who make the difference at the end of the day," he said.

"It is not just how the aircraft did in the air. It is also about how the individual thinks, how they work, and their willingness to develop and to experiment.


And what kind of warped logic is "because Rafale beat Typhoon hence Rafale superior to Su-30 MKI", especially when the Rafle pilot is on the record from your own link about his admiration of Su-30 MKI.

eklavya wrote:BVR depends a lot on whether AWACS are being used (if they are, fighter can keep its own radar off), vulnerability of radar/missiles/datalink to jamming, thermal signature, efficiency of optronics, etc. The Su-30 has a larger RCS (maybe 30 to 50+ times more than Rafale) and higher thermal signature, the Rafale's AESA radar has a lower probability of intercept and lower vulnerability to jamming, the METEOR will be less vulnerable to jamming, etc. There's no point fretting about it, we need this capability to whip the PLAAF Su-27/Su-30/J-10/J-11/etc.


Stop creating strawman arguments like AWACS. What has that got to do with your pet theory of Rafale is superior to Su-30 MKI ??? Both the fighters are capable to engage BVR targets without AWACS. Su-30 having a larger RCS doesn't mean that the Rafale fighter will lock and engage it before Su-30 MKI does and why so, Karan M has already put data about it. It's not like as soon as Rafale gets up in the air the PLAAF fighters will start falling off like dead birds so stop daydreaming about Rafale giving us some god like abilities which will make us invincible forever after like some Disney fairy tale happy ending.

Rafale is no silver bullet and neither is Su-30 MKI, both have there advantages and there disadvantages so let's not get carried away with brochureritis.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby eklavya » 11 Jun 2013 01:36

^^^^
You decide to quote out of the link that I provided (I have noticed that you can be a bit lazy about doing your own research), except that you missed out the most relevant quote from the RAF chief:

"Nothing that India has got is anything anywhere near this (the Typhoon). I would say that absolutely. This airplane is phenomenally different in both performance and technology in anything they (IAF) got right now," he said.

But, he added, it was not criticism, as Typhoon is the product of next generation technology.


What the RAF chief was stating is obvious, that the Typhoon is a generation ahead of the Su-30MKI, and that is why the IAF is prepared to pay so much more for aircraft like the Typhoon and the Rafale compared with what it has to pay for the Su-30MKI.

The Swiss Air Force report demonstrates conclusively the superiority of the Rafale vs. the Typhoon.

With the two pieces of information above, it is pretty obvious that the Rafale is some way ahead of the Su-30MKI.

As for AWACS, I was being kind to the Su-30MKI, because with AWACS support, Su-30MKI can keep its radar off. Without AWACS support, once the Su-30MKI switches on its massive radar, it will be detected by SPECTRA much before the AESA radar on the Rafale will be detected by the Su-30MKI (the AESA radar has a a much lower probability of intercept). As soon as the Su-30s radar is detected, the Rafale will move to position for the kill. Without AWACS support, Rafale vs Su-30MKI is a huge mismatch in favour of the Rafale. The range of the Rafale FSO (passive thermal detection) is also massive (especially against a fighter with two huge engines like the Su-30MKI). If the Su-30MKI's radar is on, the Rafale FSO and SPECTRA can likely pick up the Su-30MKI even without turning on its own radar; in which case the Rafale will only turn on its radar for the initial guidance to the METEOR on to its target.

You're clearly having trouble getting used to the fact that the Su-30MKI is a generation behind the Rafale and the Typhoon.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby srai » 11 Jun 2013 04:01

eklavya wrote:^^^^
You decide to quote out of the link that I provided (I have noticed that you can be a bit lazy about doing your own research), except that you missed out the most relevant quote from the RAF chief:

"Nothing that India has got is anything anywhere near this (the Typhoon). I would say that absolutely. This airplane is phenomenally different in both performance and technology in anything they (IAF) got right now," he said.

But, he added, it was not criticism, as Typhoon is the product of next generation technology.


What the RAF chief was stating is obvious, that the Typhoon is a generation ahead of the Su-30MKI, and that is why the IAF is prepared to pay so much more for aircraft like the Typhoon and the Rafale compared with what it has to pay for the Su-30MKI.

...


:D

Well ... if you asked the IAF chief, I am sure he will say Su-30MKI was superior :wink: (it's all subjective and posturing)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Mihir » 12 Jun 2013 17:24

The JF-17 is a generation ahead of the Typhoon and Rafale, and is therefore much superior. Even the PAF chief says so. Back when the MRCA was just a vague idea, many on BRF recommended sending an RFP to PAC Kamra. It's a pity that no one took them seriously.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 12 Jun 2013 17:52

^^^ Mihir, you are quite right. the problem was i think people doubted the ability of HAL to productionise the green paint manufacturing process

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 12 Jun 2013 18:46

Harriers refueling (via Livefist):

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sagar G » 14 Jun 2013 15:29

eklavya wrote:^^^^
You decide to quote out of the link that I provided (I have noticed that you can be a bit lazy about doing your own research), except that you missed out the most relevant quote from the RAF chief:

"Nothing that India has got is anything anywhere near this (the Typhoon). I would say that absolutely. This airplane is phenomenally different in both performance and technology in anything they (IAF) got right now," he said.

But, he added, it was not criticism, as Typhoon is the product of next generation technology.


I thought it is self evident why the RAF chief said that but it seems it's not so for everybody. The typhoon was a contender in MMRCA battle, what else did you expect the RAF chief to say ??? If self evident things escape your understanding then there is nothing more to be said and you keep quoting parts which suits your pet theory but even in links given by you there is nothing to suggest what you are telling everyone here.

eklavya wrote:What the RAF chief was stating is obvious, that the Typhoon is a generation ahead of the Su-30MKI, and that is why the IAF is prepared to pay so much more for aircraft like the Typhoon and the Rafale compared with what it has to pay for the Su-30MKI.


GoI will pay $$$ to get ToT for tech and not just because they are "generation" ahead as you are suggesting. Plus Su-30 MKI has Indian components while Rafale has none.

eklavya wrote:The Swiss Air Force report demonstrates conclusively the superiority of the Rafale vs. the Typhoon.

With the two pieces of information above, it is pretty obvious that the Rafale is some way ahead of the Su-30MKI.


Downhill skiing from the previous position I see.

eklavya wrote:As for AWACS, I was being kind to the Su-30MKI :rotfl: , because with AWACS support, Su-30MKI can keep its radar off. Without AWACS support, once the Su-30MKI switches on its massive radar, it will be detected by SPECTRA much before the AESA radar on the Rafale will be detected by the Su-30MKI (the AESA radar has a a much lower probability of intercept). As soon as the Su-30s radar is detected, the Rafale will move to position for the kill. Without AWACS support, Rafale vs Su-30MKI is a huge mismatch in favour of the Rafale. The range of the Rafale FSO (passive thermal detection) is also massive (especially against a fighter with two huge engines like the Su-30MKI). If the Su-30MKI's radar is on, the Rafale FSO and SPECTRA can likely pick up the Su-30MKI even without turning on its own radar; in which case the Rafale will only turn on its radar for the initial guidance to the METEOR on to its target.


This makes Rafale a paper tiger and adds nothing to support your theory. Alas your daydreams can't be taken for as facts.

eklavya wrote:You're clearly having trouble getting used to the fact that the Su-30MKI is a generation behind the Rafale and the Typhoon.


You have shown nothing solid to prove your pet theory but still don't fall short of lecture around. Amazing !!!! Comeback when you have something solid to show not interested in your theories and imaginary fighting scenarios.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Yagnasri » 14 Jun 2013 17:20

All said and done - let us see the cost - almost 3 times unit wise at the time of purchase. We do not know life cycle costs. We can be sure both Russia and France will be treating this as a purly businessness deal and with to milk maximum. We have nothing from Pakiland to challendge MKI at present and Pakiland is not going to get F22 or 35 anytime in 21st century. Chipanda has some s**ts under development and we have our own and also indo-russian 5th Generation effort which can take care of that. The main worry with China is the numbers and we may need keep are reasonable defensive posture against pakiland in case of war with chipanda. So it makes great sense to increase purchases of MKI now and cancell Rafale.

I am not sure this middle wait concept can be justified on the face of huge cost involved. IAF may want many things but can the "need" be justified in view of the the cost involved and alternative one though a more heavy one is avaliable with us.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 14 Jun 2013 17:31

Rafale and the IAF will be at the mercy of the GoFrance. As it is the French Gov seems to be back peddling and I wonder if even the technologies that were sanctioned were for the purpose of selling the Rafale abroad.

It is a great plane but I suspect it will come with the largest baggage. Just from a cost point of view I just do not think the Rafale is worth it - I fully expect it to cost twice as much in about a decade.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_20292 » 14 Jun 2013 22:01

Somehow I get the same feeling.

I think we might have just gotten the f 16 or the f 18. The americans do cheap and happy, walmart shtyle, GREAT VALUE like no one else's business.

What is this sexy Mercedez Benz BMW Alfa Romeo European schmitt that we buy

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby RoyG » 14 Jun 2013 23:00

Rafale is a great aircraft but I'm not sure it's worth it anymore.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2013 06:26

+1 to that. it will bankrupt us setting up the whole new system and funding upgrades. due to lack of funds even its OSF irst v2 was never taken up.

building more Tejas mk1, speeding up mk2 and Super30 is the only way out of this mess.

PAKFA seems to be rolling along well...we might get IOC around 2020

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby abhik » 15 Jun 2013 10:22

^^^ +1 to LCA + MKI.
Our defence budget was never going to be large enough to sustain three concurrent fighter acquisition programs(LCA + MRCA + MKI/FGFA).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2013 10:24

Rafale is needed to keep the squadron strength up since the retirement of Mig-21 , Mig-27 and some old Jags will happen in big way this decade , Rafale will plug in the gap there is also an option to import more Rafale outright from Dassult if HAL is not up to the task of delivering it in said numbers which I expect will be the case !

Most delays to sign the Rafale deal is from MOD partly due to the inherent inertia , file football and economic situation we are in.

US has been kept out from MMRCA deal due to strategic reasons and there is still no coming around with CISMO., EUMA and other intrusive probing built in with US weapons purchase , not to mention if we have to hardware aircraft for Nuclear delivery , Rafale is a safe bet there on all counts.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 15 Jun 2013 11:28

Rafale delay due to MoD or other issues is a delay. Tejas has technical delay which could be arguably pinned on MoD. Arms companies including Dassault will find every loophole in the contract to arm twist. It is good MoD is taking its own time for it.

Suppose politicians had not purchased Su-30 MKI for which IAF didn't have a requirement, IAF's condition would have been worse off. It took almost 1.5 decades to get Su-30 MKI operational. Rafale could take so much tome too.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby abhik » 15 Jun 2013 12:18

Rafale making up for falling numbers argument has been obviated. Realistically the deal will be signed only in 2014(FY 2014-15). We will get the first squadron only in 2018-19. Only after this will HAL start rolling them out initially at the rate of 8 per year. This means we will at best get 26-34 Rafales before the end of the decade. Most of the 126 will come only after 2020.
On the other hand the MKI production should stop by 2018-19 for the current orders, FGFA not starting before 2022. This gap can be used to produce say 40 MKIs (of the super 30 variety) with say another 20 being directly imported. Also the LCA Mk2 should be ready for full rate production by 2020(realistic time frame). If the production rate is bumped up to 40-50, an extra 150-200 LCA can be added. And All these extra MKIs and LCAs can be bought at a lesser cost and in the same timeline(if not earlier) as the the Rafale. Also the cost of weapons will be significantly lesser as they will use the ones already in service or will be indigenous.
The only arguments left for the Rafale are the bogus ones(at least IMHO) such as only it can deter the PLAAF, it is soo much better than the MKI, it is somehow the perfect Goldilocks size for the IAF, neither too big(MKI) or neither too small(LCA) etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby abhik » 15 Jun 2013 12:26

Austin wrote:..US has been kept out from MMRCA deal due to strategic reasons and there is still no coming around with CISMO., EUMA and other intrusive probing built in with US weapons purchase , not to mention if we have to hardware aircraft for Nuclear delivery , Rafale is a safe bet there on all counts.

When it comes to nuclear delivery there is a much better option in the FGFA. It will be inducted only 2-4 years after the Rafale and has several advantages over it. For starters it is a stealth aircraft, will far greater range and there will be no problems with any inspection regimes as it is of Russian origin.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2013 12:43

^^ Thats fine even if FGFA exists a decade from now we can use Rafale for Nuclear Delivery along with MKI , M2K.

See no reason why IAF does not need a Rafale for depleting sqad strength , The good thing about Rafale is we dont have to depend on HAL whimsical production schedule but can outright order it from France without really waiting for HAL production to roll off.

The number of aircraft we will loose in Mig-21 , Mig-27 this decade itself is phenomenal , there would be the additional Jags loss the older ones.

All in All the MMRCA deal stands on its own feet its does not compenstate for Su-30 growing strength nor will this be replaced by LCA by a mile.

IF there is delay the delay is purely due to MOD long procedure involved in selecting it and PNC and the not so anticipated problem of money with MOD. Not unusual for MOD which took 2 decades to select the AJT !

As far as FGFA goes according to ACM it will start joining service in 2022 , so it is still a decade off from IAF service !

The only thing we can hope and IAF can pray for is the Rafale deal is signed by this financial year as MOD has promised.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_26965 » 15 Jun 2013 12:43

France expects to make its first deliveries of Rafale warplanes to India by 2016 or 2017, French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian was
quoted as saying by financial daily Les Echos.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 15 Jun 2013 12:47

The deal is to get first squad deliveries within 3 years of signing the contract so if we sign by December this year we can get in Dec 2016 , Hopefull MOD get 2-3 squad outright purchased and the rest built in India. Since Rafale has the option of 126 + 80 options which will be exercised for sure.


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