Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
nash
BRFite
Posts: 890
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nash » 18 Jul 2013 12:04

varunalh wrote:Chaiwala news on IJT. Pardon me if this is already known

1. Designed Empty Weight ~ 3600kgs
2. Actual Empty Weight ~ 4500Kgs


wiki says:

General characteristics
Crew: 2, student and instructor
Length: 10.91m (36 ft 1 in)
Wingspan: 10.00 m (32 ft 10 in)
Height: 4.13m (14 ft 5 in)
Max. takeoff weight: 4,600 kg (10,000 lb)


but the comparable trainer like T-4 has:
Empty weight: 3,790 kg (8,360 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 7,500 kg (16,530 lb)

so, i think that 4600 mark is of empty weight, seems like we have this weight problem in all our products,from tank to chopper to fighter to missile to trainer.

It might possible that our planners or analysts may not good in take care of this angle or they are not sharing their experince

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4701
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Jul 2013 12:32

Singha wrote:well the Mig21 can clear wake penetration, power up its kopyo radar in A2A mode and fire R77 missiles something which the Tejas cannot do yet.


Would it be possible for Tejas to do it after completing IOC 2 in september? Or IAF has to wait till FOC?

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8224
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 18 Jul 2013 12:40

varunalh wrote:Chaiwala news on IJT. Pardon me if this is already known

1. Designed Empty Weight ~ 3600kgs
2. Actual Empty Weight ~ 4500Kgs
3. ARDC working on weight shaving to bring the empty weight around 4000Kgs

Interesting. But shaving off 11% of weight is going to be very interesting

varunalh wrote:4. Flight Trials with Stores (Equal on both wings)going on
5. Mixed Stores is next
6. Stall Flight trials have started
7. Spin Recovery - Yet to be done. This has not been done in CFD either yet.
8. AF 55 - Life(Not sure what he meant by life) yet to be ascertained (Parallel tests on going by parent company)
...
14. Aircraft cleared for full envelope(g, speed and altitude) in clean configuration

This order of the test schedule is interesting. Why are they testing stores first? I would finish the CFD and spin recovery with a clean configuration first and get the plane to the hands of the users saying (fly it clean, for the moment do weapons training on the Hawk, <<Abhibhusan ji your thoughts on this please>>). Then do all the testing with the stores and release it as part of the FOC.

varunalh wrote:9. Approx 400Hrs of flight testing done. 1000hrs of flight time needed for IOC.
10. PT2, LSP1 and LSP2 are flying.
11. LSP3 undergoing taxi trials

If the 1000 hrs of testing for IOC is true (looks very plausible), then the HAL chief is out of his mind to say IOC by Dec'13. What is he thinking? That is equivalent to 24 hrs of flying per aircraft per month, which is roughly going to be about 36 flights per aircraft per month! One could only have IOC-1/IOC-2 like Tejas or IOC postponed to at least Dec'14.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 18 Jul 2013 12:56

reducing 10% weight from a already small and austere trainer airframe is surely going to be a big challenge. alternative is accept some performance limits or get Saturn to re-redesign the already delayed AL55 *shudder* + accept fuel burn penalty.

looks like a long way to IOC probably 3 more years

they need to IOC without major redesign or new engine for sure to stand any chance. perhaps incorporate a couple of fixed wing tanks and a uprated engine in second lot.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5346
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 18 Jul 2013 15:24

varunalh wrote:Chaiwala news on IJT. Pardon me if this is already known

1. Designed Empty Weight ~ 3600kgs
2. Actual Empty Weight ~ 4500Kgs
3. ARDC working on weight shaving to bring the empty weight around 4000Kgs
4. Flight Trials with Stores (Equal on both wings)going on
5. Mixed Stores is next
6. Stall Flight trials have started
7. Spin Recovery - Yet to be done. This has not been done in CFD either yet.
8. AF 55 - Life(Not sure what he meant by life) yet to be ascertained (Parallel tests on going by parent company)
9. Approx 400Hrs of flight testing done. 1000hrs of flight time needed for IOC.
10. PT2, LSP1 and LSP2 are flying.
11. LSP3 undergoing taxi trials
12. Not all aircrafts instrumented (test/measurement) for all systems because of costs involved.
13. Weight of instrumentation on board ~ 100kgs
14. Aircraft cleared for full envelope(g, speed and altitude) in clean configuration


Thanks Varun! there has been a serious paucity of info on progress on the IJT Sitara project.

So in short, a lot of work remains to be done, even before IOC.

I just hope that the induction of the PC-7 MkII for Stage 1 training and Hawks for advanced training will suffice for the IAF till the IJT comes into service. As per Flight Global, the IAF is due to get its 14th PC-7 MkII trainer by this month end. A very rapid build up one must say. The advantage of choosing a mature type.

karan_mc
BRFite
Posts: 700
Joined: 02 Dec 2006 20:53

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby karan_mc » 18 Jul 2013 15:54

Indigenous civilian plane to be based on Indo-Russian MRTA transport aircraft ?


SOURCE: The Telegraph



India’s first civilian aircraft, the plan for which was approved by a high-level committee on manufacturing headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh last week, may be based on the same platform currently being used to develop a military transport aircraft.

The move is expected to reduce the time taken to design and develop an aircraft from scratch.

The 90-100 seater aircraft will be built by a collaborative venture of National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), state-run organisations and private partners.

At present, HAL manufactures aircraft and helicopters for military use under licensed production agreements with foreign vendors.

However, aviation analysts point out that HAL has already entered into a joint venture with Irkut Corporation of Russia to develop and make 60-tonne multi-role transport aircraft (MRTA). Under the pact, Ilyushin Design Bureau of Russia will design the MRTA, and HAL and Irkut will manufacture it in Kanpur.

For almost two decades, India has been trying to develop its own civilian aircraft. Experts believe that even if the work on the aircraft starts soon, it will take at least another 10 years for it to fly. One way to reduce the time is to incorporate military research in the development of the civilian transport plane.

According to the proposal, the design and development of the aircraft is expected to cost Rs 4,355 crore and the series production will require an additional Rs 3,200 crore at current costs.

Lockheed Martin, which is supplying Hercules aircraft to the Indian Air Force for heavy lift duties, has tied up with the Tatas to build sub-assemblies here, while Reliance has a tie-up with France’s Dassault to make aircraft parts that could eventually lead to the manufacturing of Falcom series business jets. These ventures could be engaged for the civilian aircraft.

Russia is also keen on partnering India in its initiative to design and develop a regional transport aircraft, a separate venture. United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), Russia’s state-owned civil and military plane manufacturer, has offered to set up joint development and manufacturing facilities in India, officials said.

UAC manufactures a range of aircraft from the 100-seater Sukhoi Superjet to the 436-seater IL-96-400M plane and a wide variety of fighter jets.


LINK

varunalh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 31
Joined: 06 Feb 2011 08:22

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby varunalh » 18 Jul 2013 17:05

indranilroy wrote:
varunalh wrote:Chaiwala news on IJT. Pardon me if this is already known

1. Designed Empty Weight ~ 3600kgs
2. Actual Empty Weight ~ 4500Kgs
3. ARDC working on weight shaving to bring the empty weight around 4000Kgs

Interesting. But shaving off 11% of weight is going to be very interesting

varunalh wrote:4. Flight Trials with Stores (Equal on both wings)going on
5. Mixed Stores is next
6. Stall Flight trials have started
7. Spin Recovery - Yet to be done. This has not been done in CFD either yet.
8. AF 55 - Life(Not sure what he meant by life) yet to be ascertained (Parallel tests on going by parent company)
...
14. Aircraft cleared for full envelope(g, speed and altitude) in clean configuration

This order of the test schedule is interesting. Why are they testing stores first? I would finish the CFD and spin recovery with a clean configuration first and get the plane to the hands of the users saying (fly it clean, for the moment do weapons training on the Hawk, <<Abhibhusan ji your thoughts on this please>>). Then do all the testing with the stores and release it as part of the FOC.

varunalh wrote:9. Approx 400Hrs of flight testing done. 1000hrs of flight time needed for IOC.
10. PT2, LSP1 and LSP2 are flying.
11. LSP3 undergoing taxi trials

If the 1000 hrs of testing for IOC is true (looks very plausible), then the HAL chief is out of his mind to say IOC by Dec'13. What is he thinking? That is equivalent to 24 hrs of flying per aircraft per month, which is roughly going to be about 36 flights per aircraft per month! One could only have IOC-1/IOC-2 like Tejas or IOC postponed to at least Dec'14.



Indranil,

They have to clear the carriage with full load/mixed loads/partial loads before they can go for full envelope clearance with stores is what the chaiwala says.
The target they have set for IOC is Dec 13. What tests need to be passed for IOC is something he isnt sure off.

varunalh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 31
Joined: 06 Feb 2011 08:22

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby varunalh » 18 Jul 2013 17:09

Kartik wrote:
varunalh wrote:Chaiwala news on IJT. Pardon me if this is already known

1. Designed Empty Weight ~ 3600kgs
2. Actual Empty Weight ~ 4500Kgs
3. ARDC working on weight shaving to bring the empty weight around 4000Kgs
4. Flight Trials with Stores (Equal on both wings)going on
5. Mixed Stores is next
6. Stall Flight trials have started
7. Spin Recovery - Yet to be done. This has not been done in CFD either yet.
8. AF 55 - Life(Not sure what he meant by life) yet to be ascertained (Parallel tests on going by parent company)
9. Approx 400Hrs of flight testing done. 1000hrs of flight time needed for IOC.
10. PT2, LSP1 and LSP2 are flying.
11. LSP3 undergoing taxi trials
12. Not all aircrafts instrumented (test/measurement) for all systems because of costs involved.
13. Weight of instrumentation on board ~ 100kgs
14. Aircraft cleared for full envelope(g, speed and altitude) in clean configuration


Thanks Varun! there has been a serious paucity of info on progress on the IJT Sitara project.

So in short, a lot of work remains to be done, even before IOC.

I just hope that the induction of the PC-7 MkII for Stage 1 training and Hawks for advanced training will suffice for the IAF till the IJT comes into service. As per Flight Global, the IAF is due to get its 14th PC-7 MkII trainer by this month end. A very rapid build up one must say. The advantage of choosing a mature type.



More chaiwala news from ardc.....

Lot of work going on HTT 40.
Limited works on FGFA starting soon.

Some more news on LCA
LCA SP a/c production is the prime focus for HAL right now.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8091
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby nachiket » 19 Jul 2013 00:04

Singha wrote:they are likely pinning hopes on upping the mrca order to 200 quickly. with exchange rates and economic situation will be hard for any govt to approve.

That is not going to solve the immediate problem of dwindling numbers increasingly unreliable Mig-21s. Even if the MRCA order is increased, the first one of those is still 3-4 years down the line. Production run will end in the mid-2020's.

No, the only option is to get used M2ks and Mig-29s like Kartik and Karan say. This is so obvious that I'm sure the IAF top brass must have discussed it. May be there are impediments we are unaware of. With the MKI acquisition only half done and huge amounts of money soon to be spent on the MRCA, maybe there are financial constraints. Or maybe the condition of the Hungarian 29's is worse than we think. The Qatari M2k deal was looked at several years ago. If memory serves they were selling only 10 and asking an arm and a leg for them. Now we can only hope the Taiwanese run out of spares and are forced to sell their M2ks and that our guys actually take a decision on them quickly for a change.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54822
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2013 02:54

The Qataris had already paidoff the politicians who got defeated and were asked to pay again and refused. The high price includes the bribes to be paid to the purchaing dispensation.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby srai » 19 Jul 2013 04:44

varunalh wrote:Chaiwala news on IJT. Pardon me if this is already known

1. Designed Empty Weight ~ 3600kgs
2. Actual Empty Weight ~ 4500Kgs
3. ARDC working on weight shaving to bring the empty weight around 4000Kgs
4. Flight Trials with Stores (Equal on both wings)going on
5. Mixed Stores is next
6. Stall Flight trials have started
7. Spin Recovery - Yet to be done. This has not been done in CFD either yet.
8. AF 55 - Life(Not sure what he meant by life) yet to be ascertained (Parallel tests on going by parent company)
9. Approx 400Hrs of flight testing done. 1000hrs of flight time needed for IOC.
10. PT2, LSP1 and LSP2 are flying.
11. LSP3 undergoing taxi trials
12. Not all aircrafts instrumented (test/measurement) for all systems because of costs involved.
13. Weight of instrumentation on board ~ 100kgs
14. Aircraft cleared for full envelope(g, speed and altitude) in clean configuration


For IOC, looking at the LCA IOC 1/2 requirements I would think the IAF would mandate the following from above list:

9. Approx 400Hrs of flight testing done. 1000hrs of flight time needed for IOC.
-> 6. Stall Flight trials have started
-> 7. Spin Recovery - Yet to be done.
-> 14. Aircraft cleared for full envelope(g, speed and altitude) in clean configuration
-> 8. AF 55 - Life - (some form of certification will need to occur)
-> 3. ARDC working on weight shaving to bring the empty weight around 4000Kgs - at least partial weight reductions may need to occur to meet ASR specifications

First batch of 12-20 aircrafts probably will be of IOC standard. Subsequent order will be of FOC standard and will need to meet rest of the ASR specs, including weapons delivery. Based on the amount of work still remaining, my estimates would be IOC in late 2014 and FOC in early-mid 2016.

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2393
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby VinodTK » 19 Jul 2013 05:13

From The Economic Times:Army to have Apache attack choppers in Mountain Strike Corps
NEW DELHI: The mountain strike corps sanctioned for the Army for deployment along the China border will have an aviation brigade that may include the Apache attack choppers.

The corps was sanctioned by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) yesterday at a cost of Rs 65,000 crore and would involve raising of around 50,000 troops for it.

The new corps may have the Apache attack choppers as the Defence Ministry has given permission to the Army for having a separate case for procuring the American-manufactured helicopters, sources told PTI here.

The Army and the IAF were engaged in a tussle for control over the attack helicopter fleet in which the government decided in favour of the former.

The two forces then contested for the 22 Apache attack choppers being procured from the US by the IAF but the Defence Ministry decided that they would remain with the IAF and the future assets would be given to the Army.

The government has given permission to the Army for pursuing a separate Foreign Military Sales-route procurement on the issue, they said.

Under the plans, the new strike corps will have two Mountain Infantry divisions including around 18 infantry battalions along with independent brigades of artillery, air defence and elements of combat engineers and mechanised forces.

The corps will take around six years to be raised along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) and new formations would be raised from Jammu and Kashmir to Arunachal Pradesh.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Victor » 19 Jul 2013 09:18

VinodTK wrote:..The new corps may have the Apache attack choppers as the Defence Ministry has given permission to the Army for having a separate case for procuring the American-manufactured helicopters, sources told PTI here.

Now we're getting somewhere :) . Hopefully a few of these will be put to use in J&K asap and we get to see some jihadi slapstic videos soon. In the mountains of Arunachal, "flying armour" (Rudra+Apache) will be serious stuff.

jai
BRFite
Posts: 366
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 19:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby jai » 19 Jul 2013 10:50

nachiket wrote:
Singha wrote:they are likely pinning hopes on upping the mrca order to 200 quickly. with exchange rates and economic situation will be hard for any govt to approve.

That is not going to solve the immediate problem of dwindling numbers increasingly unreliable Mig-21s. Even if the MRCA order is increased, the first one of those is still 3-4 years down the line. Production run will end in the mid-2020's.

No, the only option is to get used M2ks and Mig-29s like Kartik and Karan say. This is so obvious that I'm sure the IAF top brass must have discussed it. May be there are impediments we are unaware of. With the MKI acquisition only half done and huge amounts of money soon to be spent on the MRCA, maybe there are financial constraints. Or maybe the condition of the Hungarian 29's is worse than we think. The Qatari M2k deal was looked at several years ago. If memory serves they were selling only 10 and asking an arm and a leg for them. Now we can only hope the Taiwanese run out of spares and are forced to sell their M2ks and that our guys actually take a decision on them quickly for a change.


Babus, budget, bribe (lobbies), etc etc are the many hurdles after the af brass agree on what they need. Need of the hour is for the govt to step in with immediate funding and facilitation - better use of the tax payers money than more sops.

Mig 35's IMHO would be a better choice instead of old Mirages or older 29's. it's a newer and more capable platform with better life in the airframe than the older birds and would be available faster than buying old as a stop gap and refurbishing/ deep upgrading it.

Getting surplus 16's or 18's from vast Khan inventories may be equally good and quick.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Jul 2013 11:53

^^^ just the slight problem of maintenance infrastructure and weapons platforms, but otherwise...

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7734
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rohitvats » 19 Jul 2013 12:45



This I think is hearsay - what use will the Apaches be at the heights obtained along LAC in NE Sector? LCH is more suited for the role.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 19 Jul 2013 12:58

are there really low houred F16 and F18 in mothballs? never heard of it. but they were offering refurbished F16s in small lots of eastern europe vs the gripen so it must be there....

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5346
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 19 Jul 2013 13:36

varunalh wrote:More chaiwala news from ardc.....

Lot of work going on HTT 40.
Limited works on FGFA starting soon.

Some more news on LCA
LCA SP a/c production is the prime focus for HAL right now.


thanks Varun.

Any more details on LCA SP production? Will they be able to deliver SP-1 and SP-2 to the IAF the year end as Dr Avinash Chander said? What is the status of LCA Mk2?

merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby merlin » 19 Jul 2013 17:40

Kartik wrote:
varunalh wrote:More chaiwala news from ardc.....

Lot of work going on HTT 40.
Limited works on FGFA starting soon.

Some more news on LCA
LCA SP a/c production is the prime focus for HAL right now.


thanks Varun.

Any more details on LCA SP production? Will they be able to deliver SP-1 and SP-2 to the IAF the year end as Dr Avinash Chander said? What is the status of LCA Mk2?


Also, when will the LSP-6 fly?

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Victor » 19 Jul 2013 19:40

rohitvats wrote:
This I think is hearsay . What use will the Apaches be at the heights obtained along LAC in NE Sector? LCH is more suited for the role.

Apache and LCH have the same ceiling --21,000 ft -- with the former being more capable. Wiki says IA has ordered the newest E version with more powerful engines. As part of a NE based strike corps, the intended operational theater would be Tibet, which has similar elevation as Leh.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 19 Jul 2013 20:57

chinese ability to bring into battle heavy armour due to flat terrain on their side is sought to be blunted , whether through hellfires or CBU105.

next is MLRS/Prahaar and airborne-WLR/GMTI solutions to detect and strike hard their artillery units in depth, depriving their fwd units of armour & artillery support both.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21038
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 19 Jul 2013 21:17

It is interesting to see more members wanting more MIG-29s/M-2000s as an interim option until the MMRCAs/LCAs arrive.It is something that one mooted a long time ago,anticipating the date (2011) given for the LCA's induction as unrealistic.It makes sense (MIG-29/35) because the MIG-29K is starting service with the IN and with 60+ are being upgraded.Acquiring another 4-5 sqds. would not hurt at all,as the aircraft's cost too is reasonable.If second-hand MIG-29s are available they could be snapped up,but look at what the Poles have done-modernised their MIG-29s,seeing the value in them even though they are part of the EU!

On Mar. 15 the first Polish MiG-29 to have undergone avionics upgrade in the Military Aviation Service Facility no. 2 (Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2) in Bydgoszcz took-off on its maiden flight. The upgrade plan aims at prolonging the combat potential of ex-Soviet made aircraft still being in service within the Polish Air Force.

Polish Mig-29

Image Credit: Jacek Borzyszkowski

The planes being upgraded are from the 23rd Tactical Air Force Base in Minsk Mazowiecki.

The test flying programme is carried out by three pilots from Minsk and Malbork bases. The programme schedule includes using live armament (mainly gun) on the 21st Central Aviation Range (21. Centralny Poligon Lotniczy) in Nadarzyce.

All of the MiGs undergoing modernization are said to receive the new avionics by the end of next year.

The scope of modernization includes changing the analog avionics to digital ones, including new mission planning computer and data bus, to which additional devices may be connected.

Furthermore, the mechanical gyro is replaced with a laser system. Digital map and MFD (Multi-Function Display) are features of the programme.

MiGs are said to remain in service till 2028-2030. The data bus will allow for further changes in the avionics if needed.

MiG bureau also took part in the programme extending the service life for another 20 years (the MiGs in Polish Air Force are already 20 years old).

The exploitation programme has been changed – the MiGs do not have to undergo general repairs each 800 hours they spend in the air, but they will be used according to their technical status.

The Polish MiGs have already undergone modernization couple of years earlier, aim of which was to adapt the cockpit to NATO standards (English language indicators and gauges).

Worth noting: the Polish MiGs recently received new paint-job with portraits of the aviators that took part in Battle of Britain. The portraits are located on the vertical stabilizers.

Jacek Siminski for TheAviationist.com


Therefore,if a large number of ex Warsaw pact "29s" aren't available,it would be better to acquire new MIG-29K/35s,the latter preferable as they come with TVC.120-140+ MIG-29/35s.
Why these would be preferable to acquiring second-hand M-2000s is the prohibitive price of the upgrades,a few billion $ ($2.4B in 2011,which will now rise to about $3B with current currency rates) for just 50 of them,when for upgrading 60+ MIG-29s we are paying just under $1 billion.

High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... multi-role

Rajat Pandit, TNN Mar 5, 2013, 04.18AM IST

NEW DELHI: Should India have simply gone in for new fighters rather than upgrading its 51 Mirage-2000s at an exorbitant cost? This question came to the fore once again on Monday with defence minister AK Antony telling Parliament that the upgrade cost for each jet was Rs 167 crore.

This when the last lot of the French-origin Mirage-2000s - their induction began in the mid-1980s - contracted by India in 2000 cost just Rs 133 crore apiece. However, Antony, in a written reply to Lok Sabha, said, "Applying an escalation of 3.5% per annum as per the pricing policy review committee, to the contracted cost of the year 2000, it works out to be Rs 195 crore at 2011 levels. Thus, the upgrade has been undertaken at 85% of the aircraft's escalated cost."

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Jul 2013 21:40

in case of hostilities before the carriers are fully operational, do the IN Migs remain on coastal duties or do they fulfil roles out of forward bases like the IAF?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 19 Jul 2013 21:51

they would be fully combat qualified for anywhere.

new build Mig29K for the IAF this time would be seem like a cheaper interim soln for this decade. maybe just clone the navy model with arrester hook removed.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Jul 2013 21:55

lot of ex RN and USN F4's flew for RAF and USAF with their hooks still attached...

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16829
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 20 Jul 2013 02:15

M2K/MiG-29 as stop gap planes is one thing. Going to Mother Russia, today, to build brand new MiGs for the IAF that could last 30 years is another, not worth the ride.

Gurneesh
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 21:21
Location: Troposphere

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Gurneesh » 20 Jul 2013 04:24

Mig29K, i think, is fairly different from even the Mig29UPG.

K has RD33MK while UPG has RD33-series3, the airframes are different and I think K has FBW while Upg does not.

So, getting a couple of 29K squadrons will be similar (might be slightly easier) to inducting a new type and will not help the immediate operational requirements. Squadrons of new planes such as 29K/35, MMRCA, LCA even when inducted today will take ~2 years to operationalize.

Best bet is to find flyable second hand Mig29's and M2000's. The procured second hand planes can be the first ones to be upgraded so that the effective flying force levels are maintained even when retiring the oldest mig21's.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 20 Jul 2013 05:06

NRao wrote:M2K/MiG-29 as stop gap planes is one thing. Going to Mother Russia, today, to build brand new MiGs for the IAF that could last 30 years is another, not worth the ride.


all the ones we got for IN are new build. and RuN has shifted to the 29K from su33 on kuznetsov. so Rus can certainly produce 50-60 more on order and support it.

looking at pedigree of Mig29 users one cannot be sure how well they had been handled....any upg might turn out not so well.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16829
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 20 Jul 2013 05:37

No two ways about that. All great points. But, as the FGFA effort, among others, have shown, India could very easily get stuck with Russians calling the shot at very great expense and over a very long period of time. I just no longer trust the Russians - especially from the Tin can and now the FGFA experience. Sorry.

(was the K thrust upon the IN?)

Another way to go would be have Indian politicians pay from their Swiss accounts.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby tsarkar » 20 Jul 2013 07:13

Lalmohan wrote:in case of hostilities before the carriers are fully operational, do the IN Migs remain on coastal duties or do they fulfil roles out of forward bases like the IAF?
Deploy out of air bases close to enemy naval assets like Jamnagar.

In case of land wars, some time after 1962, INAS 300 deployed to Gorakhpur. Flights deploy across IAF stations to familiarize on the environs & operational scenarios.

Vice versa for IAF. No 6 squadron has participated in every major IN exercises.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby tsarkar » 20 Jul 2013 07:43

Kartik wrote:So the major question is why isn’t the IAF being pro-active like the PAF was when it swept up every remaining stored/active Mirage airframe and engine with spares? Its spending a fortune on those UPG and -5Mk2 upgrade programs, so why not make those upgrade programs more cost effective by spreading the costs over more airframes? buy cheaper used airframes and put them through those upgrades? Both of the upgrade programs add significant service life to the airframes, so if they did it and added a couple of squadrons of these types, they could retire the oldest MiG-21s (Ms? Bis?) till the Tejas Mk1 begins to take over from the MiG-21 Bison.


During the 90's, the IAF purchased lots of MiG-21 trainers from Bulgaria, Hungary & Ukraine, et al. They stopped this after discovering a fundamental problem, that IN discovered separately with Gorshkov.

One really doesnt know the history & record of the airframes & engines, especially if logs are poorly maintained, or the seller not giving access to them. The last was the case with Gorshkov based on which IN rejected its purchase. It is not possible to do an ultrasound testing of structural parts for fatigue because the seller's airbase or shipyard may not have the facility or the seller may simply not allow it.

So upgrading these planes by installing a radar is meaningless, because the wings or engine would have reached the ends of their structural lives.

Pakistan tried to better the Indian example, buying Mirages 3/5 en-mass, but faces the same problem. Their Mirages and F-7 are plummeting out the skies worse than Indian MiG-21s. Their only fully operational aircraft are JF-17, F-16s and handful of F-7PG purchased in 2000s. The number of JF-17 planned because of affordability (even with generous aid) is lesser than F-7 & Mirages replaced.

Airforces worldwide are shrinking, because new aircraft are becoming increasingly esoteric, complex with associated costs and long development times. PLAAF is the fastest shrinking airforce, because of fatigued Q & J fighters.

Solution is to go for UAVs for recce & Kargil type CAS missions, but fighter pilot based Air Force leadership worldwide have cultural issues adopting them. Using a MiG-27 or Mi-17 against a sangar is inefficient deployment of assets.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16829
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 20 Jul 2013 08:09

Amazing that you mention china's shrinking af.

http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-blog ... air-force/

Lost 25% !!!!!!

We really do not need these stopgap planes.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 20 Jul 2013 08:32

that way the usa with its gps, vast array of long range PGMs and large number of bomb trucks and now UCAV/UAV to lift them anywhere is well placed to economize on number of manned fighters needed - primarily for a2a patrols , with strike progressively outsourced to bomb trucks and UCAV.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3287
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kakkaji » 21 Jul 2013 04:53

Singha wrote:all the ones we got for IN are new build. and RuN has shifted to the 29K from su33 on kuznetsov. so Rus can certainly produce 50-60 more on order and support it.


So, India took the risk and funded the development of Mig-29K, when the Mig Corporation was dying. Now the Rus AF is reaping the benefits. :x

I agree with Singhaji that we should order a few squadrons of the Mig-29K, and its land-based variant for the IAF, just to amortize the development cost that we paid to the Russians.

srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2033
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby srin » 21 Jul 2013 08:56

Doesn't a naval fighter come with extra unwanted baggage ? Because of the strengthened landing gear, strengthened spine, folding wings etc, there would be additional weight and complexity. IIRC, for NLCA, it was over half a ton.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5346
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 21 Jul 2013 09:15

NRao wrote:M2K/MiG-29 as stop gap planes is one thing. Going to Mother Russia, today, to build brand new MiGs for the IAF that could last 30 years is another, not worth the ride.


Exactly my view. That would be awarding one of the MRCA contenders after they failed to qualify. Used, cheap MiG-29 airframes upgraded to UPG standard is worthwhile because it is cheap and a good stopgap solution. But no need to order new MiG-29M2 or -35 that draws funding away from the Rafale.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5346
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 21 Jul 2013 09:35

tsarkar wrote:
Kartik wrote:So the major question is why isn’t the IAF being pro-active like the PAF was when it swept up every remaining stored/active Mirage airframe and engine with spares? Its spending a fortune on those UPG and -5Mk2 upgrade programs, so why not make those upgrade programs more cost effective by spreading the costs over more airframes? buy cheaper used airframes and put them through those upgrades? Both of the upgrade programs add significant service life to the airframes, so if they did it and added a couple of squadrons of these types, they could retire the oldest MiG-21s (Ms? Bis?) till the Tejas Mk1 begins to take over from the MiG-21 Bison.


During the 90's, the IAF purchased lots of MiG-21 trainers from Bulgaria, Hungary & Ukraine, et al. They stopped this after discovering a fundamental problem, that IN discovered separately with Gorshkov.

One really doesnt know the history & record of the airframes & engines, especially if logs are poorly maintained, or the seller not giving access to them. The last was the case with Gorshkov based on which IN rejected its purchase. It is not possible to do an ultrasound testing of structural parts for fatigue because the seller's airbase or shipyard may not have the facility or the seller may simply not allow it.

So upgrading these planes by installing a radar is meaningless, because the wings or engine would have reached the ends of their structural lives.

Pakistan tried to better the Indian example, buying Mirages 3/5 en-mass, but faces the same problem. Their Mirages and F-7 are plummeting out the skies worse than Indian MiG-21s. Their only fully operational aircraft are JF-17, F-16s and handful of F-7PG purchased in 2000s. The number of JF-17 planned because of affordability (even with generous aid) is lesser than F-7 & Mirages replaced.

Airforces worldwide are shrinking, because new aircraft are becoming increasingly esoteric, complex with associated costs and long development times. PLAAF is the fastest shrinking airforce, because of fatigued Q & J fighters.

Solution is to go for UAVs for recce & Kargil type CAS missions, but fighter pilot based Air Force leadership worldwide have cultural issues adopting them. Using a MiG-27 or Mi-17 against a sangar is inefficient deployment of assets.


I had posted this in Jan 2012. MiG Corp actually was tasked with carrying out an independent inspection of their MiG-29s.

Combat Aviation magazine had a small news snippet about Hungarian Fulcrums that are for sale..

As per the snippet, Hungary is doing its best to sell the the MiG-29s. The national press has not identified potential buyers but Croatia is considered a likely customer. Hungary negotiated with Russia to secure approval for re-export and paid for an independent inspection of its 24 MiG-29s and 71 RD-33 engines by a team of 12 inspectors from MiG Corp. They reported that four of the fighters remain operational, four require a simple inspection and four could fly after replacing some parts. Of the remaining 12, four could be returned to airworthiness while the remaining 8 would be best as a source of parts- although they could all be made airworthy after a overhaul.

During their service with the Hungarian Air Force, just 2 logged 1400 hours of flight time (my guess is those were MiG-29UBs), but most have between 200 to 700 flight hours only! That's less than 10-20% of their service life used..a similar situation to what happened with the Qatari Mirage-2000-5s that had 80-85% of their service lives remaining.


Hungary initially tried to sell the fighters in 2011, but the lack of a Russian end-user certificate is what is believed to have limited interest. They were officially retired from service on Dec8, 2010 and are stored at Kecskemet.


all in all, the UPG program could easily bring 12+4 back to service and out of the remaining 12, some could be made airworthy after an overhaul, which the UPG program already includes. In short, the IAF could have a full strength MiG-29UPG squadron if it purchased the entire lot. The 71 RD-33 engines wouldn't be of any use though, since as part of the UPG program, they'd be replaced by RD-33 Ser.3 engines.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 22 Jul 2013 09:25

Good to have fleet wide deployment of such standoff weapons in IAF

Spice 250 http://youtu.be/rH22mrqXhr0

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 22 Jul 2013 10:34

Kartik wrote:all in all, the UPG program could easily bring 12+4 back to service and out of the remaining 12, some could be made airworthy after an overhaul, which the UPG program already includes. In short, the IAF could have a full strength MiG-29UPG squadron if it purchased the entire lot. The 71 RD-33 engines wouldn't be of any use though, since as part of the UPG program, they'd be replaced by RD-33 Ser.3 engines.


They can buy it if the aircraft have enough life which appears to be the case and can be upgraded to Mig-29UPG standard and same goes for M2K if its available around.

But there seems to be no interest in IAF/MOD circle in buying these aircraft and putting it into use , these ideas came up in 90's and early 2000's since then there is absolutely no available information from IAF circle in the many interviews I read if they are even thinking on those lines , so I think its a hypothetical question ATM.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby tsarkar » 22 Jul 2013 14:12

Kartik wrote:I had posted this in Jan 2012. MiG Corp actually was tasked with carrying out an independent inspection of their MiG-29s.
Combat Aviation magazine had a small news snippet about Hungarian Fulcrums that are for sale..

As per the snippet, Hungary is doing its best to sell the the MiG-29s. The national press has not identified potential buyers but Croatia is considered a likely customer. Hungary negotiated with Russia to secure approval for re-export and paid for an independent inspection of its 24 MiG-29s and 71 RD-33 engines by a team of 12 inspectors from MiG Corp. They reported that four of the fighters remain operational, four require a simple inspection and four could fly after replacing some parts. Of the remaining 12, four could be returned to airworthiness while the remaining 8 would be best as a source of parts- although they could all be made airworthy after a overhaul.

During their service with the Hungarian Air Force, just 2 logged 1400 hours of flight time (my guess is those were MiG-29UBs), but most have between 200 to 700 flight hours only! That's less than 10-20% of their service life used..a similar situation to what happened with the Qatari Mirage-2000-5s that had 80-85% of their service lives remaining.


Hungary initially tried to sell the fighters in 2011, but the lack of a Russian end-user certificate is what is believed to have limited interest. They were officially retired from service on Dec8, 2010 and are stored at Kecskemet.


all in all, the UPG program could easily bring 12+4 back to service and out of the remaining 12, some could be made airworthy after an overhaul, which the UPG program already includes. In short, the IAF could have a full strength MiG-29UPG squadron if it purchased the entire lot. The 71 RD-33 engines wouldn't be of any use though, since as part of the UPG program, they'd be replaced by RD-33 Ser.3 engines.


Good to learn that situation is different now, however, given the Gorshkov saga, second hand purchases better be avoided. If one is paying for new engines, new avionics and refurbishing airframe, and it'll be as much as producing a whole new plane and as expensive to buy.

Not that my opinion matters anyways, but a better idea would be more MKI's or more Tejas Mk1 with flight restrictions. After all, one doesn't need to fly edge of the envelope all the time, and MiG-21/Mirage-3/F-7s are anyways flying with restrictions.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests