Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 25 Aug 2013 09:16

Front-page report in the Bangalore edition of the New Indian Express.Xcpts. X-posted.

Major issues with quality of HAL's MIG engines and components alleged in this front page report from "documents accessed by Express" Most of the crashes have been attributed to "human error",but a "post-mortem" shows that the problem actually lies with the shoddy quality of HAL manufactured components.

The report says that "40% of the engines and accessories manufactured by HAL Koraput have been returned by the IAF for some defect or the other".

http://epaper.newindianexpress.com/1516 ... 3#page/1/1

Engine flaws turn MIGs into killers.

The report says that defective HAL made components caused "oil leaks,metallic particles in oil filters,hot air leaks from rear casing,trouble in compressors,and even turbine of MIG-27 aero-engines".This is attributed to the "horrific condition of the govt's stae-of-the-art manufacturing unit".

All 3 MIG types,MIG021,27,29s are suffering quality issues.LPTR failure in at least 11 accidents.
"HAL in some cases even lied while overhauling the LPTR saying it had followed the overhaul manualbut MOD officials said that the procedure recommended by the original equipment manufacturer was not being implemented by the celebrated company."

Shocking facts swept under the carpet.

"Springs installed in the fuel pump of MIG-21 engines are failing frequently.A MIG-21 Bison aircraft crashed in November 2012 in Gujarat was attributed to spring failure.The documents suggest that of the five main fuel pumps fitted with HAL manufactured springs,at least three springs failed,which is unforgivable as it would've certainly resulted in accidents.Shockingly,the main fuel pumps of Bisons continue to leak fuel despite four studies since 1990s.It says despite incorporating fuel changes,fuel leak from main fuel pump continued unabated from the throttle end."

MIG-29 fleet flying ops often suspended due to non-availability of critical accessories and poor quality of repairing.One reason attributed to these problems of poor quality and engine repairs is "mass production work in the last leg of production year,to achieve the target. For example in the first 6 months of 2012-13 production,HAL finished work on only 4 MIG-29 engines.but in the last quarter of the year,4 engines were completed within three months".

Same case with MIG-27 engines.9 completed in 9 months,but interestingly another 9 were completed within the last three months.
The issue was flagged by the MOD saying that such trend is adversely affecting the quality of aero-engines.

In the last 40 years,we have lost 171 pilot,39 civilians and almost half the MIG fleet.

PS:With this sorry track record,is it any wonder that Dassault has expressed doubts about HAL being able to deliver the quality expected in Rafale manufacture?

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... eal-rafale

Under the deal, Dassault is expected to send 18 ready-made jets, then manufacture the rest in India. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be the company's lead partner in the process.
Dassault had earlier expressed doubts about the technological capability of HAL to manufacture such a sophisticated fighter jet.

Foreign companies have in the past questioned whether Indian companies have the advanced technology and trained staff to build world-class systems.


Negotiations slowed down after Dassault said it wanted two separate contracts to be signed - one for the ready-made aircraft, and another for the rest to be built by HAL, an Indian defence ministry official told Reuters earlier this year.

India had opposed the proposal, the official said in April. Le Drian met Indian Defence Minister A. K. Antony earlier on Friday.

An Indian defence ministry spokesman declined to comment on the status of negotiations for the jet deal.



XCpt. from a Reuters report :http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/04/05/india-rafale-deal-idINDEE93403Z20130405

"Dassault says HAL does not have the capacity and capability to assemble the aircraft," said the official, who declined to be identified because he is not authorised to speak to the media.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby symontk » 26 Aug 2013 19:30

Today I saw an IJT coming to land at HAL airport around 1.15PM

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 28 Aug 2013 13:04

Corporation "MiG" at MAKS-2013 signed two agreements on offset programs in India

August 28, 2013 as part of the business program of MAKS-2013 JSC "Russian Aircraft Corporation" MiG "(in the" KLA ") has entered into with the company" Basant Aerospace Privet Limited "(Republic of India), two additional agreements totaling U.S. $ 55 million under the General blanket contract with the Air Force of the Republic of India.

The company "Basant Aerospace Privet Limited" is a partner of "RAC" MiG "by offset.

The first contract worth 43 million U.S. dollars will be created in India service center for regenerative repair of airborne radar (radar) "Zhuk-ME" produced by "Fazotron-NIIP."

The second contract worth 12 million U.S. dollars will be created in India's service center for repair of equipment upgraded aircraft MiG-29UPG.

General Director of JSC "RAC" MiG "Sergei Korotkov said:" The signing of the contract documents was the result of teamwork Corporation "MiG" and the company "Basant Aerospace Privet Limited", have joined forces in order to achieve a high level of performance and readiness of fighters "MiG".

Challenge posed by the service centers will be to maintain serviceability of radar "Zhuk-ME" and systems of the airplane MiG-29UPG and MiG-29K/KUB through reconditioning and advisory services technical staff.

The result will be the creation of centers:

reduction in the cost of aircraft by reducing revolving fund of spare parts and transportation costs;
increase the level of serviceability of the fleet through timely reconditioning systems, products, and blocks;
increase the level of safety through training staff.

It is planned that the next step will be the creation of a consignment warehouse of spare parts, which will allow us to deliver the necessary property to maintain the serviceability of the fleet "MiG".

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kersi D » 28 Aug 2013 13:55

rohitvats wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:<SNIP>
Good point. Thanks for the correction. I was having a tough time remembering all the names on that route! But you have it memorized it seems! :)


If you waste as much company bandwidth on Google Earth+Wikimapia+Maps as I do, I better be able to recall those name :mrgreen: Jokes apart, I have downloaded and filed whatever information I could/can get on geography in the area (and other areas of interest). Difficult to understand military commentary w/o good maps with proper reference point.

Because for me, every analysis starts with Military geography.


TOO GOOD. :D :D :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kersi D » 28 Aug 2013 14:00

pankajs wrote:

North Bengal has three air force bases at Hashimara, Binnaguri and Bagdogra.




Where is this Binnaguri ???????

Binnaguri does not look like a air base

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby pragnya » 28 Aug 2013 15:22

Kersi D wrote:
pankajs wrote:

North Bengal has three air force bases at Hashimara, Binnaguri and Bagdogra.


Where is this Binnaguri ???????


probably meant Panagarh.

Binnaguri does not look like a air base


google says Binnaguri (Jalpaiguri dt) is an army base.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23047 » 28 Aug 2013 21:41

Binnaguri is the HQ for 20 Mtn Div, it's along the foothills of Kalimpong hills, directly south of the tri-junction, it could have an Army Aviation Base though. The main Army aviation base for 33 corps is located at Sevoke on the outskirts of Siliguri Town.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Singha » 28 Aug 2013 22:10

panagarh(durgapur) is imo yet to be developed from its ww2 roots. I think some new transport formation(C130/C17) or eastern unit of phalcons will be based there. panagarh and kalaikunda(kharagpur) will likely be our anchor bases for the heavies in the eastern sector and might house rafale also if it ever arrives. there is some talk of a new armoury for missiles and munitions located with the base.

from google earth it seems panagarh has ample space to add a parallel or cross runway, big aprons and revetments. being located near durgapur on the main highway to delhi eases the logistical support and base infra issue.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby arijitkm » 31 Aug 2013 12:48

And now Rupee soaring, IAF softening !!! :D :D :D

MoD backs indigenous HAL trainer, air force to visit HAL for discussions. Ajai Shukla

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is continuing to develop a made-in-India basic trainer aircraft (BTA), despite Indian Air Force (IAF) attempts to scupper the project. On Monday, a team of top IAF officers will visit Bangalore to discuss with HAL the proposal and roadmap for an Indian trainer, dubbed the Hindustan Turbo Trainer–40 (HTT-40).

Last month, IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, had personally targeted the HTT-40. Writing to Defence Minister AK Antony, Browne asked him to scrap the indigenous trainer, and instead buy 106 BTAs from Swiss company, Pilatus.

Already, on May 24, 2012, the IAF had bought 75 Pilatus PC-7 Mark II trainers for Rs 4,000 crore (Swiss Franc 557 million). Browne additionally demanded the purchase of 38 more trainers under an 'Option Clause'; and then 68 more as 'Repeat Procurement'. For Pilatus, that means contracts worth Rs 6,000 crore (Swiss Franc 848 million) without further tendering.

And for HAL it would mean an end to the HTT-40, which it has defiantly pursued, even committing Rs 150 crore of internal funds into the project.

Top defence ministry (MoD) decision-makers have serious concerns about the air chief’s request. In end-July Business Standard had revealed serious factual inaccuracies in Browne’s letter to Mr Antony. The IAF chief had argued for scrapping the HTT-40 by claiming that the PC-7 Mark II costs Rs 30 crore, far cheaper than the HTT-40. But his calculations were outdated, since the sliding rupee had raised the cost of each PC-7 Mark II (Swiss Francs 6.09 million) to Rs 40 crore. Today each PC-7 Mark II will cost over Rs 43.6 crore.

Furthermore, the IAF apparently flouted rules by changing some 12 benchmarks between March and October 2009, including parameters relating to pilot safety. These changes brought the PC-7 Mark II into compliance with IAF requirements, eventually winning the contract. The CBI enquiry into the VVIP helicopter purchase from AgustaWestland is centred on how requirements were changed.

On Aug 12, at the launching of INS Vikramaditya in Kochi, Mr Antony had bluntly stated that the HTT-40 project would continue.

Also raising eyebrows within the MoD is the alacrity with which the IAF grounded the HPT-32 trainer after a fatal crash in 2009, creating a pilot training crisis that opened the door for the purchase of the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II.

The HPT-32 was labelled unsafe after 19 pilots were killed in 17 accidents over 23 years of flying, during which the HPT-32 logged 4,00,000 flight hours. That is less than one crash per year on average.

In contrast, the IAF continues to fly the MiG-21, despite a far more horrific safety record. In Jun 2003, then IAF head, Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy, revealed that 98 MiG-21 crashes had occurred in 5,53,000 sorties between 1994-2003, claiming 43 lives --- a record twice as bad as the HPT-32.

MiG fighters have sustained this trend over four decades. According to figures tabled in parliament by Mr Antony, 482 IAF MiGs (of all types) have crashed over the years, killing 171 IAF pilots, 8 other servicemen, and 39 civilians.

Senior MoD officials are now questioning whether the HPT-32 was deliberately grounded to make way for foreign trainers. Grounding the MiG-21 would not have led to import. It would only have increased pressure on the IAF to order the Tejas LCA in larger numbers.

On Jun 25, 2003, when asked why the IAF continued with the MiG-21 despite so many crashes, Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy retorted, 'It is my responsibility to exploit every IAF aircraft to the end of its service life. I can’t just throw out serviceable aircraft, demanding modernisation.'

Today, the IAF is throwing out 110 HPT-32. The majority of them are good to continue till 2018-2024, even if they fly 250 hours per year, a reasonable average for a trainer. More than 2000 IAF pilots --- including the IAF chief and his son, a Sukhoi-30MKI pilot --- have learned to fly on the HPT-32.

MoD sources confirm that HAL has thrice offered to develop a successor to the HPT-32, but the IAF has stymied each proposal. The HAL Chairman in 1985, Air Marshal LM Katre, who would go on to become IAF chief, fitted a more powerful engine to the HPT-32, creating a new trainer --- called HTT-34 --- which obtained full certification. But the IAF inexplicably refused to accept it.

In July 1993, HAL again sent the IAF a detailed 'Project Definition Phase Report' for a new trainer. The IAF again did not respond. Again, in Feb 2004, HAL submitted a detailed proposal to Air Headquarters. Again there was no response.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby krishnan » 31 Aug 2013 13:13

I wonder what is going to happen to the MMRCA deal

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby member_23455 » 31 Aug 2013 14:04

arijitkm wrote:And now Rupee soaring, IAF softening !!! :D :D :D

MoD backs indigenous HAL trainer, air force to visit HAL for discussions. Ajai Shukla


Have to say Ajai Shukla is a glutton for punishment...the earlier article was a plea for the HTT-40, this one wants the HPT-32 reinstated, and the logic seems to be that if the IAF can fly the "unsafe" Mig-21, then why can't it fly the HPT-32 :-?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 31 Aug 2013 16:57

Did the Rupee have much of an impact on this matter?

Now if the two "sides" can hack out a plain, simple, very dependable trainer and come up with a more complicated one down the road, it would solve a lot of problems.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Vivek K » 31 Aug 2013 21:56

krishnan wrote:I wonder what is going to happen to the MMRCA deal

Cancel the MMRCA and pressure DRDO/HAL/IAF to cooperate and show urgency in LCA mK2! :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby kuldipchager » 01 Sep 2013 01:51

krishnan

Post subject: Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

PostPosted: 31 Aug 2013 13:13



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I wonder what is going to happen to the MMRCA deal



This MMRCA should be cancelled.
If French have already paid the kick back to congress wigs then deal will be shub it in our throats. We should cancelled the deal with French fighter then put more fund for AMCA.





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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rohitvats » 01 Sep 2013 12:42



So, Shukla continues with his set of lies and insinuations? Guess the bit*h slap he received on NDTV program did not do much...Or, he as been nursing the hurt and waiting to get back at IAF Chief.

As for HPT-32 and Mig-21, well, only his desire to show IAF as evil and diabolical could make him make that comparison...sometimes words fail to describe a man's stupidity! And he goes further makes insinuation against CAS by referencing to VVIP Chopper deal...I'm glad he left the Army.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 01 Sep 2013 20:31

Actually,

I am with Shukla on this. Go HTT-40.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby John » 01 Sep 2013 21:10

Comparing the costs of PC-7 with product that hasn't even made it past the blueprints is insanity especially given the fact that every domestic product has ended three times its original project cost. Fall of Rupee will also affect HTT-40 costs :roll:. HAL can promise a 2 year product delivery who is going to hold them accountable, but if anyone is expecting this to say daylight before 2020 they are kidding themselves.

Most importantly we rewarding failure by throwing more money at HAL not saying imports are the way but we need to find alternate to HAL. IMO Trainer is simple endeavor IMO that can be handled by foreign JV with over private companies.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Vivek K » 01 Sep 2013 21:17

The Mig-21s are 60s tech and are a past workhorse. Even the bis were manufactured in the 80s. The bison upgrade added some upgrades to basically a very old platform.

The Mig-21 "was" a good fighter and it served us well. It is now time to move on. The LCA is a great modular home grown solution. Need to press them into service.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Sagar G » 01 Sep 2013 21:21

John wrote:IMO Trainer is simple endeavor IMO that can be handled by foreign JV with over private companies.


But why throw money at foreign vendors to build a basic trainer for us when the capability to build one indigenously already exists ??? What is the guarantee that the product from the said JV won't end up being pricey ???

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Surya » 01 Sep 2013 21:24

much as its embarrassing - I think HAL needs to get the LCA and IJT and prove itself

I am not believing for one minute any promises HAL makes about delivery schedule till it gets LCA and IJT to Dhruv leveles

The PC 7 will be costlier but still having one basic trainer is a better option. (wish we had gone with the Koreans for this and other things - sigh )

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Indranil » 01 Sep 2013 21:52

I just look at the PAKFA's flight display at MAKS'13 and wonder wow, it's just been 2-3 years and here they are displaying post stall maneuvers!!!

Why can't we do that with LCA? The answer is, "Well because we have never done this before". And so, here's to all first time developments. Keep going! The cost overruns and time overruns will be amortized on the long run.

Also will stopping HTT-40 speed up LCA, IJT. You will just have a bunch of dejected young guys from whom you took away their pet project and threw them onto something else.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 01 Sep 2013 22:46

Private Company To Support MiG-29s in India

Russian Aircraft MiG and Indian private company Basant Aerospace have signed two maintenance deals worth $55 million to support MiG-29s in India. This is the first time that a Russian defense company has selected a non-government-owned partner to support high-tech military hardware such as radar abroad.

The first deal is worth $43 million and creates a service center in the New Delhi region to repair and maintain the Phazotron-NIIR Zhuk-M series of airborne radars that equip the Indian air force MiG-29UPG and Indian navy MiG-29K/KUB fleet. The second deal is worth $12 million and will establish a service center for parts used on those aircraft.

Speaking to journalists during the MAKS 2013 Moscow Air Show this week, RAC MiG general director Sergei Korotkov said the purpose of the deals is to ensure a high readiness level and safe operations for the Indian MiG-29UPG/K/KUB fleet by means of rendering high-quality and timely repair of their onboard equipment. Another aim is to offer a consultancy service to the maintenance organizations within India’s armed forces that support the MiG-29.

Korotkov noted that RAC MiG has been working with Basant for two years. The service center will be equipped in the second half of this year, he added. Potentially, the turnover through this partnership can reach $600 million, Korotkov said. In particular, the OEM is looking to establish warehouses in India to shorten repair times.

Basant Aerospace employs a half-dozen experienced engineers and about 24 skilled technicians, but the number can be increased to 40 provided the workload is sufficient, said company executive Air Vice Marshal Arvind Agrawal (retired).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Surya » 01 Sep 2013 22:51

Also will stopping HTT-40 speed up LCA, IJT. You will just have a bunch of dejected young guys from whom you took away their pet project and threw them onto something else.



yes focus from management , lets not also assume skilled resources are infinite - maybe the economic downturn will help but the last few years a few dozen of resumes with HAL\NAL have passed my desk and I am low down the the recruiting sweepstakes

There are always people even in the best orgs who do not get to work on the in project of the day.

at this point with LCA and IJT still not in series production they have no credibility.

The only cred they have is Dhruv,

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Austin » 01 Sep 2013 22:57

Indian Air Force to induct its biggest transport aircraft on Monday
Bolstering the Indian Air Force's capability to swiftly transport combat troops and equipment such as tanks to the front, Defence Minister A K Antony will on Monday formally induct its biggest 70-tonne C-17 heavy-lift transport aircraft into service at the Hindon Air Base near Delhi.

Mr Antony will formally induct the aircraft procured from the US under a deal expected to be over Rs. 20,000 crore into the newly-formed 81 'Skylord' Squadron in Delhi, IAF officials said.

The American C-17, with a capability to carry around 80 tonnes of load and around 150 fully geared troops, will replace the Russian Il-76 as the biggest aircraft in the IAF inventory till now.

The Il-76 had the capability to carry loads of up to around 40 tonnes.

The IAF has placed orders with the US for ten such aircraft under the deal signed in 2011 and three of them have already been delivered.

The US Air Force will complete the delivery of all the 10 aircraft by the end of next year.

The aircraft is expected to enhance the operational potential of the IAF with its payload carriage and performance capability and would augment the strategic reach during disaster relief or any similar missions.

After the completion of the 10 aircraft, the IAF may also exercise the option of procuring six more planes for its fleet.

In recent times, the IAF has shifted its dependence from the Russian-origin aircraft towards the American ones with the induction of the C-17 and the C-130J Super Hercules transport
aircraft.

The IAF operates six C-130Js and has plans of procuring six more for operations on small and unpaved runways alongside routine transport missions.

The IAF also has the Russian Antonov-32 in its inventory.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Victor » 01 Sep 2013 23:18

It is as insane to suggest that the IAF doesn't want indigenous aircraft as it is to insist that they must accept half-tested aircraft or paper projects to defend the country. As with the LCA and IJT, the question that is steaming the IAF is "talk all you want but where are the planes?".

* the continuing collapse of the Rupee with no reprieve in sight will force the IAF to give up hopes on any additional PC-7s beyond the additional options.

* IAF will make do with about 100 primary trainers, half of what they need to be comfortable, until the HTT-40 gets cleared for service in 10 years if we are lucky. In the meantime, this will reduce the number of adequately trained pilots that the IAF will have to man the MMRCA and LCA squadrons. There is no escaping this harsh reality, unless we send our pilots to Sri Lanka and Bangladesh for basic training. Of course, neither the MMRCA or LCA may materialize which will solve this particular problem.

* The HTT-40 will essentially be an assembly of foreign components from engine to ejection seat and will certainly be far more expensive than the PC-7 but in this age of NREGA, land procurement and food security bills this is acceptable financial harakiri. IMO, even if we end up an impoverished banana republic, HTT-40 will be a plus as we end up with an armed trainer that can find use with CRPF, Coast Guard, BSF and Army in addition to being exported to Myanmar, Vietnam, Maldives etc. It may turn out to be the Indian Tucano (but will likely be given a wimpy, effeminate name like Nandini or Urvashi).

* With the increasingly likely failure and scrapping of the Sitara, a new saga of foreign procurement will begin and drag on for a decade or two. In the meantime, the HTT-40 may be pressed into service as a "Stage 1.5" intermediate trainer after the Kirans start falling out of the sky.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 01 Sep 2013 23:55

* HTT-40: From reports, it seems, only the engine and the ejection seat is from abroad. Is there anything else?

*
Chairman HAL stated in his interview with Vayu, “most of the preliminary design, including configuration studies and sizing, cockpit layout and wind tunnel model testing have been completed… any cost comparison with other basic trainers should be on the basis of life cycle costs, ensuring maintenance support for the next 30 years, in which HAL will be competitive.”


* I totally agree on the life cycle cost. That is how the MoD has been assessing other projects (MMRCA come to mind). Per plane cost is not a debatable point -( it is perhaps a deliberate one by the IAF to derail the HTT-40 - that is the only way they can "win")

* The life cycle cost of the Pilatus should be horrendous

* I agree that it needs to be available in the next few years - why it has not been available so far is a point of concern

What is so wrong with the Sitara?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby NRao » 02 Sep 2013 00:14



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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Victor » 02 Sep 2013 07:17

NRao wrote:What is so wrong with the Sitara?

In this interview a year ago, Browne said they were concerned with issues in controls, engines, aircraft’s weight, stall and spin characteristics which is pretty much the whole jingbang. The last is the most worrying because it may point to an aerodynamic design flaw.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Hiten » 02 Sep 2013 08:14

CABS To Deliver New Maritime Surveillance Aircrafts To The Indian Coast Guard
Up to 19 of these aircrafts could see induction into service.

The Indian Coast Guard's [ICG] aerial assets would receive a significant boost if the DRDO's Centre for Air Borne Systems' [CABS] plans reach fructification. It recently issued a Request For Information [RFI] for the acquisition of aircrafts which it would then adapt to meet the end-user's specific requirements.
Image
Referred to as the 'Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft [MMMA]', these are to enable the ICG carry out:

Surveillance & Interdictions
Search & Rescue [SAR]
Pollution monitoring
Transport men & material
Serve as an air ambulance

For this, the OEM is required to suitably modify the airframe in order to enable CABS mount the necessary sensors & weaponry. While it initially foresees a requirement of 6 such platforms, another 3 may be acquired as part of its 'Option' clause in the agreement, followed by additional 10, later, bring the total number to 19.

in keeping with trends of an average Indian acquisition process, this buy too has been quite a long drawn affair, with news of floating Tenders for this, reported as back as 2011. That news was, in fact, the result of cancellation of an even earlier process undertaken to acquire, initially, the same number of aircrafts, identified as the Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance [MRMR] aircraft. As reported earlier ICG would like to equip the aircraft with the Soviet-origin 12.7 mm Air Defence Gun, that the Ordnance Factory Board [OFB] license manufactures in the country. Its requirement for fitting the aircrafts with an AESA radar requires some clarification, given that 360o coverage & AESA radars are mutually exclusive concepts, since merely having an AESA would not guarantee all-round coverage being claimed.

The ICG's present surveillance requirements are being met with the help of the German-origin Dornier Do 228 aircrafts, 40 of which have been sanctioned for induction, so far. Of these already 38 have reportedly been delivered. 17 of these would be equipped with the more advanced Israeli Elta EL/M-2022A radar. If we're to assume this particular RFI is taken to its logical conclusion then, if all goes well, it would be at least 2 years before the contract is signed, and an additional 2-3 years before deliveries can commence. We would thus see them getting inducted into the Coast Guard only by 2018-19. With recent reports of the Indian Navy looking to acquire newer medium range reconnaissance aircrafts of its own, there are speculations that the Navy might transfer the Britten-Norman Islander aircrafts, for which it is looking for a replacement, to the Coast Guard. This transfer, coupled with the planned MMMR purchase & the existing Dornier would see the Coast Guard's aerial capabilities getting a significant boost. If feasible, one could also contemplate a grouping of the Navy's & Coast Guard's purchases with a common airframe for both, with the baseline model being purchased for the latter & the more advanced variant of the Navy. Either way, one hopes that the decision is delayed no further, this time around & the Coast Guard's schedule for its expansion plans are maintained.


http://www.aame.in/2013/09/cabs-to-deli ... itime.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby pragnya » 02 Sep 2013 09:02

indranilroy wrote:Actually,

I am with Shukla on this. Go HTT-40.


not surprising at all given the state of affairs economically. HAL gets its share as per the mandate. as i have said before, whether IAF goes with it or not, HAL needs to move ahead with IA, IN and the global market in mind.

in his report ajai shukla mentions -

Once grounded, the HPT-32 was never allowed to fly again. HAL implemented a series of safety recommendations made by a high-power committee, headed by an IAF air vice marshal. This included fitting each HPT-32 with a parachute recovery system that would safely bring down an aircraft that had suffered engine failure. But the IAF did not allow any further testing of the trainer.


it is a serious charge. i was under the impression that never came about. when was this done by HAL??

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby John » 02 Sep 2013 09:18

Victor wrote:
NRao wrote:What is so wrong with the Sitara?

In this interview a year ago, Browne said they were concerned with issues in controls, engines, aircraft’s weight, stall and spin characteristics which is pretty much the whole jingbang. The last is the most worrying because it may point to an aerodynamic design flaw.

Sadly enough i don't know how long HAL can continue blaming the engine for everything even though it is their fault for picking it in first place. HJT can takes its time, it is good if it comes along but IMO IAF doesn't need a IJT these days most AF have gone all in with Jet trainers.

But why throw money at foreign vendors to build a basic trainer for us when the capability to build one indigenously already exists ???

I would call it capability if HAL can put together one in 2 year which for certain it cannot.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby vic » 02 Sep 2013 11:47

We don't know if IJT has real problems or IAF is doing a Arjun on it. Who was the chappie who called LCA as a 3 legged cheetah or Mig-21+ etc??

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 02 Sep 2013 11:57

Wasn't there a quote somewhere about the high tail affecting spin recovery?

Anyway,the IJT is in serious trouble.The engine was changed mid-stream ,a delay of 2+ years.I remmebr an issue of Flight mag a few years ago,where the editor flew the Pilatus and raved about its capability,where he said that one didn't need an IJT to graduate to jet fighters.I've located the piece,it's a long one,so please read it in full in the link.Here are his opening and concluding remarks.If true,then all we need is acquiring more Pilatus PC-7s and 21s and skip the IJT and HTT completely,a huge saving in cost and time.ACM Browne are you listening?

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-319516/

FLIGHT TEST: Pilatus PC-21 - Fast learner
By: Peter Collins
12:00 2 Dec 2008

Defence budgets worldwide are under immense financial pressure, leaving many modern air forces with an acute dilemma - how do they produce pilots highly trained in flight and attack techniques, in the minimum amount of time, with the earliest exposure to sophisticated, frontline equivalent fourth-generation fighter systems, at the minimum cost and with the lowest environmental impact?

The old definitions of elementary, basic, advanced lead-in, advanced, tactical weapons and so on for training courses are arguably obsolete. What may be needed in future is a trainer that is docile in handling and yet with such high performance and in-built (embedded) sophisticated simulated training systems that it can replace three or four types and cover a complete air force's generic training programme.

This type will require a new classification as a flight, attack and systems trainer (FAST) aircraft. If the FAST is allied to a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT), which has similar systems to the FAST and comparable performance to the designated air force frontline fighter, it can be argued that expensive, single-type, operational conversion units (OCU) could be disbanded and the final, frontline "type conversion" training given within the full-strength combat wing of the type itself.

Having flown a wide variety of propeller, turboprop and jet trainer types with differing performance levels, plus many Western second- to fourth-generation fighters/fighter bombers, my role was to act as an experienced test pilot assessing the PC-21 for a ministry of defence-type procurement agency. My objectives were threefold: does the PC-21 have the full range and sophistication of systems to be truly labelled as an effective FAST type aircraft? Can the PC-21 take the place of three or four present-day trainer types without compromise at either end of the performance envelope? Can the PC-21 properly replicate the intended frontline fighter type (in this case the Boeing F/A-18) in air force service?





The PC-21 is a delight to fly in all regimes and I believe a modern air force would have no problems (post-student pilot screening) in replacing a training fleet of three to four current aircraft trainer types with the PC-21 as its single type. The PC-21 FAST would also be an ideal complement to a higher-performance LIFT-type aircraft. The PC-21 does not just simulate a modern frontline fighter "in some aspects" - within a few minutes of take-off I completely believed that I was flying a jet, and that I was also operating and fighting in the F/A-18 that the cockpit customisation was designed to replicate.

If I could use just one adjective to describe the PC-21, it would be "stunning".

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Kartik » 02 Sep 2013 12:09

Philip wrote:Wasn't there a quote somewhere about the high tail affecting spin recovery?

Anyway,the IJT is in serious trouble.The engine was changed mid-stream ,a delay of 2+ years.I remmebr an issue of Flight mag a few years ago,where the editor flew the Pilatus and raved about its capability,where he said that one didn't need an IJT to graduate to jet fighters.I've located the piece,it's a long one,so please read it in full in the link.Here are his opening and concluding remarks.If true,then all we need is acquiring more Pilatus PC-7s and 21s and skip the IJT and HTT completely,a huge saving in cost and time.ACM Browne are you listening?

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-319516/

FLIGHT TEST: Pilatus PC-21 - Fast learner
By: Peter Collins
12:00 2 Dec 2008

Defence budgets worldwide are under immense financial pressure, leaving many modern air forces with an acute dilemma - how do they produce pilots highly trained in flight and attack techniques, in the minimum amount of time, with the earliest exposure to sophisticated, frontline equivalent fourth-generation fighter systems, at the minimum cost and with the lowest environmental impact?

The old definitions of elementary, basic, advanced lead-in, advanced, tactical weapons and so on for training courses are arguably obsolete. What may be needed in future is a trainer that is docile in handling and yet with such high performance and in-built (embedded) sophisticated simulated training systems that it can replace three or four types and cover a complete air force's generic training programme.

This type will require a new classification as a flight, attack and systems trainer (FAST) aircraft. If the FAST is allied to a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT), which has similar systems to the FAST and comparable performance to the designated air force frontline fighter, it can be argued that expensive, single-type, operational conversion units (OCU) could be disbanded and the final, frontline "type conversion" training given within the full-strength combat wing of the type itself.

Having flown a wide variety of propeller, turboprop and jet trainer types with differing performance levels, plus many Western second- to fourth-generation fighters/fighter bombers, my role was to act as an experienced test pilot assessing the PC-21 for a ministry of defence-type procurement agency. My objectives were threefold: does the PC-21 have the full range and sophistication of systems to be truly labelled as an effective FAST type aircraft? Can the PC-21 take the place of three or four present-day trainer types without compromise at either end of the performance envelope? Can the PC-21 properly replicate the intended frontline fighter type (in this case the Boeing F/A-18) in air force service?





The PC-21 is a delight to fly in all regimes and I believe a modern air force would have no problems (post-student pilot screening) in replacing a training fleet of three to four current aircraft trainer types with the PC-21 as its single type. The PC-21 FAST would also be an ideal complement to a higher-performance LIFT-type aircraft. The PC-21 does not just simulate a modern frontline fighter "in some aspects" - within a few minutes of take-off I completely believed that I was flying a jet, and that I was also operating and fighting in the F/A-18 that the cockpit customisation was designed to replicate.

If I could use just one adjective to describe the PC-21, it would be "stunning".



That is the PC-21..not the PC-7 MkII that is a whole generation behind the PC-21. The cost of the PC-21 is exorbitant and Pilatus did'nt offer it knowing fully well that it would've been beaten on costs by the KT-1.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 02 Sep 2013 12:12

Pilatus says the direct operating cost of the PC-21 is less than half of its nearest competing jet FAST type, is only one quarter of the acquisition cost of a modern, complementary, LIFT type aircraft and 40 times cheaper to operate per flight hour than a modern fighter as required on an OCU. These economies are hugely powerful in their own right, but the critical question is how effective is the PC-21 as a FAST type?


Not recommending it as a replacement for the PC-7,but evaluate it if the IJT ,with its alleged numerous dev. problems,can;t get off the ground.It would complement the PC-7 and perhaps cut down the numbers of extra PC-7s/basic trainers required.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rohitvats » 02 Sep 2013 13:00

Philip wrote:<SNIP>
Not recommending it as a replacement for the PC-7,but evaluate it if the IJT ,with its alleged numerous dev. problems,can;t get off the ground.It would complement the PC-7 and perhaps cut down the numbers of extra PC-7s/basic trainers required.


Errr...what happens to the 'JET' part in IJT if we go with PC-21?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby rajanb » 02 Sep 2013 13:31

^^^^ Simbly put, we become fanboys.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 02 Sep 2013 14:57

If you read the Flight Intl. feature, test flying the PC-21,one will see that the PC-21 is described as being a new FAST type of trainer,that does away with at least 3 trainer types.There is no need for an IJT,as the aircraft even simulates the experience of flying fighter aircraft like F-18s.As the editor says,he felt as if eh was flying a jet and not a turbo-prop.Therefore,for air forces with budget restraints,Just one trainer,the PC-2 would suffice ,with the next step being the dedicated trainer version of the combat aircraft in question. This makes a huge difference both cost wise and time wise.One needs support for just one or two trainers.Just imagine how an IAF pilot proceeds in his training.First the PC-7,then the IJT (yet to arrive,Kirans now),then the AJT and then the dedicated two-seat version of the 4++ gen type or whatever.

As the author said,quoted again:

I believe a modern air force would have no problems (post-student pilot screening) in replacing a training fleet of three to four current aircraft trainer types with the PC-21 as its single type. The PC-21 FAST would also be an ideal complement to a higher-performance LIFT-type aircraft. The PC-21 does not just simulate a modern frontline fighter "in some aspects" - within a few minutes of take-off I completely believed that I was flying a jet, and that I was also operating and fighting in the F/A-18 that the cockpit customisation was designed to replicate.


The big Q regarding anything developed by HAL is delivery.The track record is anything but glowing! With training being the very foundation of an air force,upon which pilot combat skills are honed and refined,the element of risk of an untried desi programme (where an earlier attempt was a disaster) being chosen over a world-beater,should be most carefully evaluated and a decision taken only after one is fully satisfied in HAL meeting its goal.If so,then unlike as in the past,the IAF should take the lead as it is the customer.

However,in the light of the existence of "one-type for all training roles" as exemplified with the PC-21,the IAF/MOD should examine whether we need so many types of trainers,plus their huge support structure,which would cost 3-4 times as much.I would advocate if the HTT-40 is to be given the green light,conceive of it as our version of the PC-21,"a bird for all seasons",which would do away with at least one type,the IJT,which is at the moment in peril of its own making.

PS:Kartik made an important point about the PC-21s "exorbitant cost".I forgot to add that the PC-21,if so capable,after evaluation by the IAF, could even replace the extra Hawk AJTs being acquired.It would then be a cheaper alternative,and possibly save money for an HTT-40 to be developed as an "X" type.Could someone pl. give the comparative costs,hawk vs PC-21?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Postby Philip » 02 Sep 2013 18:08

I've posted in the Ind.Av. td. the details about the PC-21,which replaces the need for 3-4 types of trainers,leading pilots straight onto sophisticated combat trainers,as it can simulate the performance of fighter jets.Here is one report how it is faring very well globally.

PC-21taking the GCC trainer market by storm
Posted 12 November 2012 ·

With Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Qatar having adopted the PC-21, the type is now the trainer of choice for the three largest of the GCC's six air forces. Jon Lake looks at the reasons why.

Hot on the heels of the November 2009 order for 25 aircraft from the UAE and the May 2012 order for 55 from Saudi Arabia, the Pilatus PC-21 basic trainer has scored another sales success in the GCC region with an order for 24 PC-21s from the Qatar Emiri Air Force.

Pilatus is now tantalisingly close to its aircraft becoming standardised across the GCC.

Ironically, the PC-21’s main rival is the Hawker Beechcraft (formerly Raytheon) T-6 Texan II, which is a derivative of Pilatus’ previous PC-9 trainer. But, despite the advantages enjoyed by a US-supplied aircraft type, the PC-21 is proving extremely competitive and has already won orders in Switzerland (eight aircraft), Singapore (19 aircraft), and been evaluated by Australia and Spain.

Though it took the proven PC-9 as a starting point, the PC-21 is a completely new design, intended to replace different aircraft used across the spectrum of the elementary, basic, advanced (lead-in), and even the advanced (tactical weapons) training phases.

The PC-21 is being promoted by Pilatus as a flight, attack and systems trainer (FAST), with docile enough handling to be able to undertake early phase flying training, yet with sufficient performance and handling and with the right embedded training systems to be able to replicate the ‘fast jet experience’ well enough to be a great advanced trainer, too.

And, says Pilatus, it does so while offering lower operating costs because it is powered by a Pratt & Whitney PT6A-68B turboprop engine, rated at 1,600-shp (1,190kW), which drives a five-bladed, graphite, Hartzell propeller.

Pilatus claims that the direct operating cost of the PC-21 is less than half of that of its nearest competing jet FAST type (and 40 times cheaper than a modern fast jet fighter), and that it costs about one quarter of a modern lead in fighter trainer (LIFT) type aircraft. Performance is impressive for a turboprop, with a maximum speed of 370kt and a sustained low-level cruising speed of 320kt.

Like most of its rivals, jet or turboprop, the PC-21 has tandem cockpits with three large colour liquid crystal displays (LCD), head-up displays (HUD), hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls and Martin-Baker MkCH16C zero-zero ejection seats in each.

More unusually, the cockpit is covered by a bird strike-resistant canopy with all-round vision, and without a separate windscreen. And, uniquely in its class, the PC-21 has a new short-span wing with a swept leading edge and a high-speed profile, which gives good performance and fast-jet type handling on approach.

The aircraft can be fitted with under-wing hardpoints for the carriage of stores, including fuel tanks and a range of weapons, but can also emulate the use of advanced air-to-air missiles and radar. All of this means that not only can the PC-21 simulate a modern frontline fighter in some limited aspects, rather it can give the student pilot a really convincing replication of flying and operating a modern fast jet, and can be a genuinely useful preparation for frontline types, though most customers so far have procured it to operate alongside the very types of elementary and advanced trainers that it could easily also replace.

In the Gulf, the UAE announced an order of 25 PC-21s for the United Arab Emirates Air Force at the 2009 Dubai Airshow. The aircraft will replace the UAE’s aging fleet of Pilatus PC-7s. But an advanced trainer is also being sought, with the Alenia M-346 provisionally selected. The first UAE PC-21 made its maiden flight on November 22 2010 and deliveries began in the first quarter of 2011.

Saudi Arabia signed a contract with BAE systems to provide 55 Pilatus PC-21 aircraft (along with 22 BAE Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer aircraft) in May 2012. First deliveries will begin in 2014.

Saudi student pilots will transition from the Cirrus SR-21 to the glass cockpit PC-21 and will then go on to fly the Hawk 65/65A (with an analogue cockpit) before finally progressing to the new Hawk AJT (which has a modern glass cockpit). This leaves an obvious requirement for a glass cockpit upgrade for the Hawk 65/65A, or for a follow on Hawk AJT buy to replace these aircraft.

Qatar announced an initial order for 12 PC-21s on April 20 2012 but subsequently doubled the number to 24. A contract was signed to this effect on July 30 and this covered provision of the aircraft as part of a wider training system, including ground-based training devices, as well as maintenance and logistics support.

The 24 PC-21s to be delivered to Qatar will equip a new QEAF Air Academy, which will receive its first aircraft in the middle of 2014 and where training will commence during mid-2015.

PC-21 operations will be directly supported by Pilatus under a long-term incentivised performance-based support contract.

Qatar previously sent pilots overseas for basic training, conducting advanced training on the Alpha Jet in-country.
- See more at: http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/pc-21t ... 7ofSh.dpuf


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