Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

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SaiK
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby SaiK » 28 Aug 2013 19:35

drdo has clearly said 500 tanks at the min for break even. why d you all support the vested ddm clout?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby vishvak » 28 Aug 2013 20:14

So what's difference between 248 tanks and 500 tanks. DRDO should be provided funds for 500 with condition that remaining tanks to be used either in later upgraded version Arjun 1.1 over time or used at borders to take out infiltrators or used to support other Arjun 1.0 tanks.

This is also why roman numerals must not be used, when Hindu numerals make better sense at times.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby rajsunder » 28 Aug 2013 23:42

Graphene Can Make Other Metals 500 Times Stronger

By taking a thin film of metal and then "growing" a layer of graphene on top of it using chemical vapor deposition, scientists at the Korean Advanced Institute of Science and Technology (KAIST) were able to make multi-layered metal-graphene sandwiches. And when you put a whole bunch on top of each other, these layers can make nickel 180 times stronger, and copper a whopping 500 times stronger than it would be alone. And the best part is that it hardly adds any weight.

...............

press release:
The result is astounding as 0.00004% in weight of graphene increased the strength of the materials by hundreds of times. Improvements based on this success, especially enabling mass production with roll-to-roll process or metal sintering process, in the production of automobile and spacecraft lightweight, ultra-high strength parts may become possible.


some thing for our DRDO to look into for our next gen tanks.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby vishvak » 28 Aug 2013 23:54

Also submarine hulls. And/or another door like assembled-structures between weapons and submarines.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Vipul » 29 Aug 2013 04:06

Russians to charge Rs1500 Crores for more junk.

Seeking to address the issue of bursting barrels of Army tanks due to ammunition, the government is planning to replace them with canons of T-90 tanks in collaboration with Russia.

T-72 tanks, the mainstay of the Indian armoured fleet, are facing problems with their ammunition as they sometimes burst in the barrel and 200 such cases have been reported causing concern in the Army.

The Defence Ministry is planning to replace the barrels of the T-72 tanks with the ones fitted in the T-90 tanks. Under the plan, around 800 barrels are to be procured from Russia under a deal expected to be worth around Rs 1,500 crore, government sources told PTI here.

The issue is expected to be taken up for discussion during the high-level talks between India and Russia during the visit of Defence Secretary Radha Kant Mathur to Moscow next week, they said.

Earlier this year, the Army told a Parliamentary panel that barrels burst sometimes due to ammunition and wondered whether its troops will be "afraid" to fire even after seeing the enemy.

"It (the T-72 ammunition) used to burst in the barrel. If it bursts in the barrel, then the firer is afraid to fire his own gun, which is not a correct thing. If he is afraid to fire his own gun, then even if he sees the enemy he will not fire," the Army had told the Standing Committee on Defence.

The Army informed the government and the Parliamentary Committee that over a period of time, there have been 200 such accidents involving the ammunition and "it brings down the confidence of the firer, especially, with regard to tank ammunition".

In terms of the numbers, the T-72 tanks are the backbone of the Indian armoured fleet and have undergone several upgrades since their induction to be able to fight effectively in the battlefield.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby member_22539 » 29 Aug 2013 07:25

^Mere words are not enough to express the contempt one feels for the DGMF and the assorted MOD and Army vermin responsible for this situation. And look at the solution, buy more Russian crap to replace crappier Russian crap. All the useless T-72s need to be replaced by Arjuns immediately. Sinking money into this tin can is gonna bite us in the a$$ when the time comes to fight.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby neeraj » 29 Aug 2013 07:44

^^^^^^
This also means that the T-90 TOT is a complete lie. OFB has done nothing but bleed the country dry.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby abhik » 29 Aug 2013 08:21

What is the source of this ammunition that "bursts in barrel"?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby SaiK » 29 Aug 2013 08:50

and what kind?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Austin » 29 Aug 2013 09:03

Shukla mentioned this about barrel burst of T-72 check in comment section

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/03/a ... -t-90.html

btw, the exploding guns had NOTHING to do with bad ammunition, fatigue, or prematurely exploding HE shells. Most of the barrels burst while firing APFSDS, not HE.

I happened to be in a position in those days to know what was happening. This matter was thrashed out fully at a major meeting in OFB Kanpur in 1998, attended by the OFB people, the DGMF people, the Deputy Chief and a full-fledged Russian delegation at which this matter was thrashed out. Broadsword (then young, unwrinkled and a Lt Col) was there too, taking notes. The reason for the bursting barrels, the meeting concluded, was SINGLE-FOLD: tempering at 690 degrees instead of the 725 (I could be very slightly off on the figures... it was 12 years ago) that the Russian manufacturing documents specified.

Don't go by reports. The only function that reports serve is to cover up the truth and let people get away with murder.



The OFB has a long and illustrious history of "developing" 125 mm T-72 gun barrels. So far, close to 20 Indian Army tankmen have died as a result of barrel bursts due to OFB Kanpur having tempered 125 mm barrels at inadequate temperatures. This despite the Russian production documents specifying the temperature at which the barrels had to be tempered.


A 2001 report quoting CAG

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... cag-report

while hundreds of t-72 main battle tanks (mbts) of the army are long overdue for overhaul, another disturbing fact is that a few hundred of them were fitted with defective barrels, which could cause accidents. the barrels were found defective because they had not been tempered as per specifications. this has been reported by the comptroller general of india (cag). while 454 barrels valued at rs 4 4 crore were rejected because tempering specifications were not followed, an investigation had been ordered into the remaining 305 barrels fitted on the tanks. until march 1998, 35 accidents had taken place in which more than 10 barrels either cracked or burst, said the cag report of last year. according to sources, the defence metallurgical research laboratories (dmrl) in hyderabad also investigated the failure of the 125 mm gun barrels of the t-72 tank and pointed out that the breakages were because of tempering problem. the department of defence production and supplies had awarded the order to supply 774 barrels at a cost of rs 67.73 crore to be fitted on the t-72 tanks. by alloying elements with steel, midhani made hot rolled bars which were sent to ordnance factory, kanpur, for forging. subsequently, they were sent to field gun factory, kanpur, for machining. however, the field gun factory at kanpur carried out heat treatment on the forgings at reduced temperature, which was against the specifications from the original designers. when the heat treatment should have been carried out at 520-570 degrees c, it was done below 430 degrees c, the report said."this has resulted in the defective manufacture of barrels affecting the performance of t-72 tanks,"the cag said.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby abhik » 29 Aug 2013 09:27

Interesting to note that the cost of the barrels which are to imported is about 20 time the locally made ones 10+ years ago.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby rohitvats » 29 Aug 2013 14:34

Arun Menon wrote:^Mere words are not enough to express the contempt one feels for the DGMF and the assorted MOD and Army vermin responsible for this situation. And look at the solution, buy more Russian crap to replace crappier Russian crap. All the useless T-72s need to be replaced by Arjuns immediately. Sinking money into this tin can is gonna bite us in the a$$ when the time comes to fight.


The shenanigans of the IA with respect to Arjun not withstanding, your diatribe it against IA is nothing but a rant.

More orders for Arjun will not solve the T-72 barrel issue - pure and simple. Even if IA ordered 1,000 Arjun tanks today, those tanks which will remain in service will require the change of barrel. And you know why? Because of the idiots sitting in OFB who make those barrel. And who could not get it right even after so many donkey years.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby rohitvats » 29 Aug 2013 14:40

neeraj wrote:^^^^^^
This also means that the T-90 TOT is a complete lie. OFB has done nothing but bleed the country dry.


Errr...that is the funny part.

IIRC, We are making the T-90 barrel.

If you ask me, there seems to be a method to this madness - let a situation fester for a long time w/o taking corrective actions in time. When it reaches a tipping point, like PC-7 for IAF, allow foreign imports quoting the emergency situation.

Same goes for Russian barrels for T-72. It is quite possible that we don't have the capacity to address the demand now but then, may be, with proper planning, we would not have reached such a situation. This when the problem was discovered a very long time back.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 29 Aug 2013 16:01

Why cannot Bharat Forge make the barrels? They already make the Road wheels and section of the Hull for the T-90. In these times of economic distress we want increase the order book for Mother Russia?


Bharat Forge has been supplying ammunition shells to the army. Apart from that, the company manufactures barrels for FH-77 155mm 39 caliber guns. The company has also supplied around 30,000 road wheels for T-72/90 tanks and BMP IFV to the Indian Army. Also special alloy and titanium products for the armed forces are developed and supplied by the company.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Sagar G » 29 Aug 2013 22:50



Ridiculous !!! Even when the problem has been identified some advanced morons in OF can't rectify it and now we are going to the Russians for a problem which can be solved by our own industry. AKA was parroting about defence import only when the Indian industry cannot deliver what happened to that ???

The report mentions that

"It (the T-72 ammunition) used to burst in the barrel. If it bursts in the barrel, then the firer is afraid to fire his own gun, which is not a correct thing. If he is afraid to fire his own gun, then even if he sees the enemy he will not fire," the Army had told the Standing Committee on Defence.

The Army informed the government and the Parliamentary Committee that over a period of time, there have been 200 such accidents involving the ammunition and "it brings down the confidence of the firer, especially, with regard to tank ammunition".


The problem is with the ammunition so why are we importing the barrel ??? DDM confusing between ammunition and barrel or what ???

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby ramana » 29 Aug 2013 23:32

Austin wrote:Shukla mentioned this about barrel burst of T-72 check in comment section

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/03/a ... -t-90.html

btw, the exploding guns had NOTHING to do with bad ammunition, fatigue, or prematurely exploding HE shells. Most of the barrels burst while firing APFSDS, not HE.

I happened to be in a position in those days to know what was happening. This matter was thrashed out fully at a major meeting in OFB Kanpur in 1998, attended by the OFB people, the DGMF people, the Deputy Chief and a full-fledged Russian delegation at which this matter was thrashed out. Broadsword (then young, unwrinkled and a Lt Col) was there too, taking notes. The reason for the bursting barrels, the meeting concluded, was SINGLE-FOLD: tempering at 690 degrees instead of the 725 (I could be very slightly off on the figures... it was 12 years ago) that the Russian manufacturing documents specified.

Don't go by reports. The only function that reports serve is to cover up the truth and let people get away with murder.



The OFB has a long and illustrious history of "developing" 125 mm T-72 gun barrels. So far, close to 20 Indian Army tankmen have died as a result of barrel bursts due to OFB Kanpur having tempered 125 mm barrels at inadequate temperatures. This despite the Russian production documents specifying the temperature at which the barrels had to be tempered.


A 2001 report quoting CAG

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... cag-report

while hundreds of t-72 main battle tanks (mbts) of the army are long overdue for overhaul, another disturbing fact is that a few hundred of them were fitted with defective barrels, which could cause accidents. the barrels were found defective because they had not been tempered as per specifications. this has been reported by the comptroller general of india (cag). while 454 barrels valued at rs 4 4 crore were rejected because tempering specifications were not followed, an investigation had been ordered into the remaining 305 barrels fitted on the tanks. until march 1998, 35 accidents had taken place in which more than 10 barrels either cracked or burst, said the cag report of last year. according to sources, the defence metallurgical research laboratories (dmrl) in hyderabad also investigated the failure of the 125 mm gun barrels of the t-72 tank and pointed out that the breakages were because of tempering problem. the department of defence production and supplies had awarded the order to supply 774 barrels at a cost of rs 67.73 crore to be fitted on the t-72 tanks. by alloying elements with steel, midhani made hot rolled bars which were sent to ordnance factory, kanpur, for forging. subsequently, they were sent to field gun factory, kanpur, for machining. however, the field gun factory at kanpur carried out heat treatment on the forgings at reduced temperature, which was against the specifications from the original designers. when the heat treatment should have been carried out at 520-570 degrees c, it was done below 430 degrees c, the report said."this has resulted in the defective manufacture of barrels affecting the performance of t-72 tanks,"the cag said.



Its not a case of exploding ammo but barrels not having enough strength to handle the stresses. Tempering at lower temperature of 430 deg C instead of 570 deg C retains the brittleness in the barrel.


Heat treatment you heat to the Rc temperature and quench it. Then you heat to the tempering temparature and then qunch it. HSLA usually could be cooled in air instead of quenching.

Long ago in 1990s this was noted, but by keep stalling and kicking the can downstream the costs have increased. And dont know how the rupee downtrend in value adds to the costs?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2013 01:02

I also recall a vague report about the barrels being heated in induction furnaces and the power lines trips were also a contributing factor.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby VinodTK » 30 Aug 2013 05:34

PHO close to sealing zł.800 million deal with India
Polish Defence Holding (PHO) is finalizing talks on a major contract in India, according to sources quoted by Gazeta Wyborcza. The deal involves the Polish firm selling 200 WZT-3 armored recovery vehicles for zł.800 million.

The newspaper's sources claim that the contract could be signed in September. PHO's spokesperson Stanisław Wojtera confirmed that talks are in progress, but also said that no deal has yet been signed. “We of course hope for a positive outcome,” he said.

Sources said that the Indian side is eager to sign the deal quickly. Local authorities have reportedly withdrawn from earlier demands for restrictive fines in case PHO does not fulfill the terms of the contract.

The issue of penalty payments is important to PHO as its last deal with India nearly bankrupted the company. In 2011 PHO -- then called Bumar -- agreed to deliver over 200 armored vehicles to the Indian military. The contract, whose details were not revealed to the firm's management board, carried fines for delays or technical problems that exceeded the value of the contract itself, Polish media reported. The scandal eventually led to the resignation of the company's CEO at the time.


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Singha » 30 Aug 2013 06:48

another great example that license manufacturing or importing blindly without an attempt to improve on it is just useless.

this is the mighty hitech ARV which supposedly india cannot make
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... tD8saaJKeC

:rotfl:
I would wager given a chance tata power, M&M or L&T could make the necessary mods to a T72 chassis and get it done if they had been given the work 10 years ago! but we do nothing like that.

we had already modded a BMP chassis for akash and nag.

- NEVER support any domestic effort properly
- ALWAYS give the benefit of doubt and bailouts to foreign cos
this should be a motto for DGMF and put up in a silver plaque in front.

and this after they could not deliver the last time!!

Local authorities have reportedly withdrawn from earlier demands for restrictive fines in case PHO does not fulfill the terms of the contract.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Sagar G » 30 Aug 2013 10:00



Another TATRA esque scam. DRDO is working on an Arjun based ARRV what is the need for this one ???

Image

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Singha » 30 Aug 2013 11:45

the claim will be the ARVs need "common logistics" with the tincans.
even if that claim be true, why cannot we as a maker of cranes and construction eqpt get someone to do it locally ?

there is good butter in such deals for sure.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby mody » 30 Aug 2013 12:29

VKS in his interview had stated that the ARV was an even bigger scam then the Tatra trucks.

No wonder the deal is now being rushed through, elections are due very soon, in a number of states and next year for the whole country.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Sagar G » 30 Aug 2013 14:27

Deleted
Last edited by Suraj on 13 Sep 2013 23:49, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please address the COAS with respect.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 13 Sep 2013 23:27

India to buy planes, tanks worth Rs. 10,000 crores

The defence acquisition council, headed by defence minister AK Antony, approved a follow-on order worth more than Rs. 4,000 crore for six C-130Js - configured for special operations and airborne assault.

It also paved the way for placing an order for 235 T-90 tanks worth Rs. 6,000 crore with the Ordnance Factory Board. The tanks will be manufactured with transfer of technology from Russia.


Hidden in the C-130J news reports was the T-90 deal. I guess MoD is trying hard to please both US and Russia. Anyone notice the price increase to Rs 26 crore per tank!

Compared to this, HVF built 124 Arjuns at Rs 18 crore per tank and promised to bring it down by crores if large orders were made. [source] Arjun Mk II is looking better every day.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Philip » 14 Sep 2013 07:37

Nikhil,has the cost also increased because of the Rupee's collapse. 58% of Arjun's content too is imported.It will also push up the cost of Arjun.Is this extra 235 T-90s part of the existing total planned strength to have been acquired or over and above the original number?
Reg.Tank barrels,etc.If L&T can fabricate the hulls of a nuclear sub,and some have mentioned other Indian entities like BForge eminently capable of manufacturing tank barrels,what has the MOD been doing all these years? What on earth is happening in the MOD and with AKA? There appears to be only a veneer of "indigenisation" as a policy.It appears that the Saint can't be trusted.He has been trying to fool everyone with his "holier than thou" attitude,when in fact he has been presiding over some of the biggest scams like AW,Tatra,etc.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Vivek K » 14 Sep 2013 09:42

So what is the number of this loser tank in IA - 310 + 1000 + 235 = 1446! Reminds me of the saying - " Andher nagari, Chaupat Raja! Take ser bhaji, take ser khaja!

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Vipul » 14 Sep 2013 10:53

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 558652.cms

with the fresh order for the 236 T-90S tanks. They will be built by the Indian Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), at a cost of around Rs 6,000 crore, under transfer of technology (ToT) from Russia. India, in 2001 and 2007, had inked two contracts worth Rs 8,525 crore with Russia to import 657 T-90S tanks. With the OFB subsequently beginning to manufacture these tanks under licensed production, the Army has till now inducted around 780 of the 1,657 T-90S tanks it eventually wants.


Per the above with above order India now has placed orders for/acquired 1,016 of the 1,657 tin cans planned for eventual/total acquisition.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Vivek K » 14 Sep 2013 10:58

A shameful chapter in our history which future generations (whose money we are using now) will curse us for.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby mody » 14 Sep 2013 12:28

New order for Tincans being rushed through. Arjun MK-II must be performing well in the desert trials.
By the way any news about the trials? The trials were to start in 1st week of August. Must have already finished by now.

Perhaps IA will complain, that the tank cannot shoot while flying and ask for a MK-III variant, which can achieve this and oh keep the weight down to 50 Tons.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Pratyush » 14 Sep 2013 15:28

Are the tin cans goint to be imported or made in india. Itmis nit cleare from the article.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby SaiK » 14 Sep 2013 19:02

not just shameful.. it is beyond that. this gov has lost its mind. tomorrow, even NFU shall become a state-of-mind for these folks.

108% guaranteed that 50% of this money is wasted on firang and firang agents. scams for sure, will only come up to surface when it crosses the "security blanket" clearance for notifications.. i am sure, there are moles and mighty scoundrels hiding under this security blanket.

e.g. one can't do a rasta roko for such defence matters.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Indaruta » 26 Sep 2013 23:18

Hope this has not been posted before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ald_CxPdHM

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2013 01:12

It has been, but its a great program all the same. Wish somebody had similarly uploaded a program done on the LCA by Discovery Channel a year or so back..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Kanson » 27 Sep 2013 02:13

Till Arjun matures to the specification of IA, there is lesser chances of influencing their already made decision in Tincan procurement.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Austin » 27 Sep 2013 08:50

Russia, France Develop New Infantry Fighting Vehicle
Russia’s Uralvagonzavod and France’s Renault are jointly developing a new infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) with an increased firing range of up to 16 kilometers, the Russian company said Wednesday.

“We [Uralvagonzavod and Renault Trucks Defense] unveiled today a prototype of a future IFV,” Uralvagonzavod general director Oleg Sienko said at Russian Arms Expo-2013, which opened Wednesday in the Urals city of Nizhny Tagil.

“The French side provided us with the transmission, the engine, the concept and the fire control system,” he said.

According to Sienko, the new IFV will be highly competitive on global markets because it is equipped with a powerful 57-mm gun, instead of the 30-mm variant that is standard for current IFVs.

“With its maneuverability and fire power, we are certain that this product will be in high demand on the market,” Sienko said, adding that a joint Russian-French venture could be formed to set up localized production of the new IFV in Russia.

Renault, France’s second-biggest carmaker, has made the Russian market one of its priorities for international development. Russia is already Renault’s fourth-largest automobile market.

In 2014, the Renault-Nissan Alliance will get a majority stake in a joint venture with the Russian Technologies State Corporation, called Alliance Rostec Auto BV, which will control AvtoVAZ, leader of the Russian car market.


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2013 14:53

"“The French side provided us with the transmission, the engine, the concept and the fire control system,” he said."

LOL - so much for all the Russia strong crowd on the net who used to brag about how the T-90, unlike the Arjun was fully Russian. Looks like Uralvagonzavod had to go shopping for pretty much the same things the Indian side procured from outside. And how it resembled the Leo2A4, even here the concept is apparently French.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby Pratyush » 27 Sep 2013 15:03

^^^

Still the Russian import will be better. cause it is 100 imported. Unlike the DRDO maal, which is is only 60 % or whatever % imported.


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Postby SaiK » 28 Sep 2013 22:30

did they copy the abrahm's rpg protection grills?


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