Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

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tsarkar
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by tsarkar »

^^ Kanchan offers excellent protection against rod penetrators, and I'm told IA wanted & got it for Indian T-90 as well. The ERA requirement for Arjun came after the Israel Lebanon war. It is believed that Pakistanis will flood the frontlines with irregular jehadis with RPG & Bakhtar Shikans & TOWs. Only after these irregulars have engaged our armoured thrusts & softened them would PA armour engage them. The ERA is to deal with RPG & missiles so that Kanchan is (relatively) intact when dealing with PA armour firing rod penetrators.
Philip
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Philip »

Correct ! Some time ago I posted details of the Israeli tank casualties in the last Lebanon war and the huge effect tandem warhead Russian RPGs were having on the battlefield.This asymmetric warfare by the Hiz had neutered the Israeli superiority in armour in the Lebanese context.With the US retreat from Afghanistan,thousands of jihadis will be turned against India especially in J&K by the Pakis when the next spat occurs.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by NRao »

tsarkar wrote:^^ Kanchan offers excellent protection against rod penetrators, and I'm told IA wanted & got it for Indian T-90 as well. The ERA requirement for Arjun came after the Israel Lebanon war. It is believed that Pakistanis will flood the frontlines with irregular jehadis with RPG & Bakhtar Shikans & TOWs. Only after these irregulars have engaged our armoured thrusts & softened them would PA armour engage them. The ERA is to deal with RPG & missiles so that Kanchan is (relatively) intact when dealing with PA armour firing rod penetrators.
have the Indian policy makers and polity come to accept this Jehadi/Baktar crap? IA preping for it is one thing.
Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Pratyush »

Can the t 90 handle the same tactic. That is envisiged for the Arjun. As it is going to be the most numerous tank in the near future. If the current trends hold. Making it more likely to see action in what is TSP now.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by vina »

Singha wrote:tanks generally used a blast of air to clear the barrel after each shot iirc.
Well, tanks (and ships and stuff) equipped for NBC warfare come with (slight) positive pressure inside the hull, so that there is no bad stuff coming in.

Specifically with extracting fumes, the can like thing you see on the tank barrel is a fume extractor. It takes gets charged up when the projectile shoots past it and then discharges after the projectile exits clearing out the fumes and the positive pressure in the hull keeps the gases from flowing into the fighting compartment.
Now, my guess is that while this is of sufficient capacity for the main gun, the rocket generates far more gas, so probably a higher efficiency and/or capacity fume extractor, required. This is really not a show stopper, and can be retrofitted even later . (will need some theoretical work in modeling the flow dynamics and pressure , building a model and proving it).

Hmm. On second thoughts, it might not be an "extraction" problem at all. See, when a gun is fired, the metallic cup which forms the base of the caseless ammo seals the breach and prevents gas from coming into the chamber. Now with the rocket, those pressures will not be as high as when firing a shell and so, when fired, the seal wont be airtight and probably some of it is leaking into the fighting compartment . So, whatever it is, it is no biggie. Can be fixed rather easily.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Avinandan »

vina wrote: See, when a gun is fired, the metallic cup which forms the base of the caseless ammo seals the breach and prevents gas from coming into the chamber. Now with the rocket, those pressures will not be as high as when firing a shell and so, when fired, the seal wont be airtight and probably some of it is leaking into the fighting compartment . So, whatever it is, it is no biggie. Can be fixed rather easily.
The gun is rifled, so I guess the airtight logic might not work.
vishvak
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by vishvak »

Pratyush wrote:Can the t 90 handle the same tactic. That is envisiged for the Arjun. As it is going to be the most numerous tank in the near future. If the current trends hold. Making it more likely to see action in what is TSP now.
Shouldn't India train more forces to tackle such irregulars from across the border instead of distributing work which would be done anyway. It's not really standard scenario I am assuming.
SaiK
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by SaiK »

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater
interesting..
Image
a model or real pic?

a skirt would be nice to have
arijitkm
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by arijitkm »

ARJUN CATAPULT 130 mm gun
......
Arjun, the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) in operation at the moment, was considered a possible chassis for the emplacement of the 130 mm on a tracked vehicle. The job was given to the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), based at Avadi.

A feasibility study of mounting 130 mm Catapult Gun on Arjun Chassis Mk-I was carried out in May- June 2012. The technical study concluded that upgradation of the existing Catapult on the chassis could be carried out in a very short time and the equipment capabilities increased.

......
A date in the month of November, 2012 was fixed by the DG (artillery) for the first field trial. The CVRDE, Avadi, took up the challenge after they were given a spare gun system to mount on the Arjun, Mk I in July, 2012. The trials were held between 27 November to 3 December 2012. The Arjun mounted chassis outmatched Vijayanta by a large margin, also in the test for stability, while firing charged rounds.

The developmental trials were held between 31 July to 13 August, 2013 during the summer. Arjun Catapult was fitted with two sets of Goegraphical Positioning System and one Gyro used in Arjun Mk-I during these trials. Driver’s Night Vision Device (DNS) and Commanders’ night sight (HHTI) were also successfully tested. It was also provided with fire fighting system based on Instant Fire Detection Suppression System as existing in Arjun Mk-I tanks.
........
http://www.millenniumpost.in/NewsContent.aspx?NID=44764
chackojoseph
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Image

Arjun Catapult. :)

The chassis is more capable than T-series, even in light roles. If you all remember my posts where I used to say shave off the protection on ARJUN in reference to FMBT. The same thing is happening with off spins.
Aditya_V
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Aditya_V »

Wish they can try 155mm *39 Calibare guns and induct them 2years, even 300 will make a huge difference.
Aditya_V
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Aditya_V »


An interesting title category in above link
Products inducted into services
Does that mean catapult is inducted in limited nos?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Hopefully the chassis is adapted for 800 hp, 1000 hp engines too. A wheeled and half tracked options needs to be developed too.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by rohitvats »

Arjun has to be a chassis of choice simply because it is capable of withstanding the pressure from firing of the gun and recoil thereof. When IA had initiated the process of selecting Tracked SP gun in 90s, the requirement was of mating the turret to T-72 chassis. But it was found that the hull could not withstand the pressure of sustained operations and I think developed cracks. It was then the Arjun chassis was tried with Denel gun. And rest, as they say is history.
Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Pratyush »

The design decision wrt the catapult, that I never understood, is the gun pointing backwards. The only other modern design to incorporate such feature was the european SPH 70.

This was a feature of teh vijayanta mount. Does the gun rotate, before firing?
RoyG
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by RoyG »

Another stupid outdated design. What a step backwards from the denel mounted gun design. Only in India. Jai ho!
Singha
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

relax chill bro. its supposed to be like habib sitara - cheap, sasta, repairable in local bike shops, outsourceable to SMEs(cycle factories will make its gun barrel)
RoyG
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by RoyG »

Singha wrote:relax chill bro. its supposed to be like habib sitara - cheap, sasta, repairable in local bike shops, outsourceable to SMEs(cycle factories will make its gun barrel)
Ah yes, Stalin would be proud.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Aditya G »

Small IFV for COIN ops ... awesomeness 8)

Image

Image
Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Pratyush »

End all domestic projects and buy this BMP.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Leo.Davidson »

Aditya G wrote:Small IFV for COIN ops ... awesomeness 8)

Image

Image
Want to fight the war like the french in WWII, dump all the bmps and buy these autorickshaws...
jamwal
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by jamwal »

It's meant for COIN operations in tight spaces, not full scale wars like BMP or Stryker.
I remember seeing something even smaller and less armoured a while back as some kind of TD or concept vehicle in some expo.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Rahul M »

the israelis use armoured dozers in similar situation.

good to see more of a premium being put on the life of an Indian soldier.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Rahul M wrote:
good to see more of a premium being put on the life of an Indian soldier.

+1
isubodh
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by isubodh »

Shouldn't we plan something like a precision drone strike in COIN.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Drone strikes have a stigma attached to it. Daksh can do the job.
Lalmohan
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Lalmohan »

Leo.Davidson wrote:


Want to fight the war like the french in WWII, dump all the bmps and buy these autorickshaws...
not sure i understand, the french tanks had bigger guns and heavier armour than the panzers and caused a lot of concerns for the german generals
however, the french army had a static defensive posture behind the maginot line, as opposed to the newly emerged blitzkreig concept
once bypassed and cut-off, the bigger tanks were not of much use
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by joygoswami »

ARJUN TANK MK-II RUNS INTO MINOR HURDLES. :(

LINK
RoyG
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by RoyG »

Yawn, it will keep running into hurdles so long as we have the same corrupt system in place. Just forget about it for now. Wait till we have another gov
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Gurneesh »

joygoswami wrote:ARJUN TANK MK-II RUNS INTO MINOR HURDLES. :(

LINK
snippet from the link....
But the trial outcome showed that the tank underperformed on two major counts – missile firing capability and muzzle reference system ( MRS). The MRS is an electronic device that is intended to measure the current value of a tank barrel bend in order to take it into account when firing the gun and, therefore, to improve the accuracy of firing.
Firstly...HispanicBusiness.com :-?

Secondly, never heard about MRS issues in Mk1; didn't they use the Mk1's MRS.

Moreover, T90 doesn't even have this feature and it was not an issue there. :shock:

Let the Arjun-T90 flame wars begin again :twisted:
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Karan M »

Minor teething issues with the huge number of modifications underway,being made into a mountain...both of these are solveable and can be tackled.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

french also had a excellent 75mm gun that still in use decades later.
but they never had the faster moving combined arms armour div system the germans & russians worked out + the integration with Stukas and artillery probably + massing of resources.
likewise the americans innovated in artillery combined fire and could bring down a entire corps artillery in a co-ordinated mission later in the war to beat up german formations.

the british were not great in producing innovative generals but on a smaller scale they did improvise and achieve great results in some places. pls read about the battle of beda fomm and the breakthrough attack in north myanmar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of ... d_Mandalay

having good stuff in isolation is not so useful......which is why the export model F16/F15 with supposedly better kit than usaf's own never have the same impact...people and doctrines make it count.

ps. due to rain shadow of the arakan ranges, north-interior myanmar has the look of rajasthan scrubland.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Karan M »

interestingly in WW2 amrika bahadur began with mass numbers of good enough gear + tactics > german gold plated items in fewer quantities and uber crew. shermans and arty vs king tigers.
today, they are transitioning to the new germans with gold plated billion $ bombers while their opponents like china stock up on numbers/good enough gear. if US is dragged into a few more iraq wars, then bye bye numbers and gold plated gear. one has to give.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

:rotfl: true that.
ArmenT
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by ArmenT »

Gurneesh wrote:
joygoswami wrote:ARJUN TANK MK-II RUNS INTO MINOR HURDLES. :(

LINK
snippet from the link....
But the trial outcome showed that the tank underperformed on two major counts – missile firing capability and muzzle reference system ( MRS). The MRS is an electronic device that is intended to measure the current value of a tank barrel bend in order to take it into account when firing the gun and, therefore, to improve the accuracy of firing.
Firstly...HispanicBusiness.com :-?
This hispanicbusiness.com website is simply reproducing from
the original article on Mail Today
Singha
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Singha »

what is the need for arjun to fire missiles? its gun has enough range and power. missile firing job is best done by more agile platforms like namica with higher reloads and a elevated mast for optronics.
none of the western heavies or merkava field missiles today. missiles are way slower than a cannon round.
this also permits heavier and fatter missiles like Nag to be used which a tank gun can never fire.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by jamwal »

Such issues with Arjun are very much needed to support starving Russian tank makers and underpaid Indian babooze and middlemen.
Kartik
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Kartik »

they're hardly issues that should cause alarm..any product development program sees such issues that resolved before the product goes into production..the report didn't state the IA was looking to derail any orders based on these issues.
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