Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Feb 2014 10:59

You have got the units wrong. The specs for Mk1 was 0.84 kg/sq.cm = 0.0084 kg/sq.mm. = 0.082 N/sq. mm.

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Feb 2014 20:53

Lahat test fired from Helo.
Link

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Feb 2014 12:34

How much does the T-72 Tank Weigh with this mine plough attached ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2014 12:36

that plough pair is allegedly 1.5t total. so 41.5 for the basic T72 and perhaps 43.5 for the T72 with ERA.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Feb 2014 12:37

So the ERA on T-72 itself weighs 2 T ?

Ok found it on DRDO site they say its less than 1.5 T for ERA Package over T-72

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.j ... active.jsp

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 07 Feb 2014 12:42

KMT 6 Full width mine plough - locally screw-drivered by BEML

http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Prod ... Plough.pdf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Feb 2014 12:50

On OFB Site T-72 with ERA ( CIA ) is 43 T

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/armoured/1.htm

On BEML site I found its KMT-6 Mine Plough and it weighs 1 T
http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Prod ... Plough.pdf

But BEML has shown Abrams Picture with Mine Plough

So T-72CIA with Mine Plough would be 44 T

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 07 Feb 2014 13:00

Yeah, funny that is. The plough with Abrams in that picture is Pearsons' and not KMT 6 !

http://www.pearson-eng.com/products/ful ... ne-plough/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Feb 2014 16:59

Arjun Mk2 Brochure Pictures ( via DFI )

Arjun Mk2
Laser Warning & Countermeasure
Arjun Mk2 Specs 1
Arjun Mk2 Specs 2
Automatic Target Tracker
Muzzle Reference System
Mobility
Driver Night Sight
ERA
Roof mounted Driver Seat
Protection

member_23061 · Post by **member_23061** » 07 Feb 2014 19:29

So is the RCWS same as the CROWS system on Abrams??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CROWS

Is our version indigenous or the Israeli one?

Thanks!

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 07 Feb 2014 19:52

Arjun Main Battle Tank Gears up for Final Leg of Trials
Defence scientists of Avadi-based Combat Vehicle Research Development Establishment (CVRDE) are all set to take the country’s Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mk II for the concluding phases of user trials.

As per the schedule, the prototype of Arjun MBT Mk II will have to undergo five phases of user trials, out of which three have been completed at the Mahajan and Pokhran Field Firing Ranges.

CVRDE Director Dr P Sivakumar, told ‘Express’ on Thursday that in the fourth phase of trial, the tank would have to be tested for obstacle crossing and medium fording (water) capabilities.

“The concluding phases of the user trials will begin in May 2014. There are 89 improvements being undertaken on the Mk II tank, out of which 74 are related to tank-fittable ones and the remaining 15 are other improvements such as ammunition development,” Sivakumar said.

CVRDE, a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Establishment, got on to mission mode to develop the upgraded version of Arjun MBT in 2010 and rolled out the first prototype within two years, for User trials. The Arjun Mk II is heavier by five tonnes when compared to Mk I, which is 62.5 tonnes.

“So far the prototype tank has covered over 5000 km as part of the DRDO and user trials. We have extensively conducted the validation of all the improvements prior to each phase of user trials,” says Balamurugan V, Additional Director, Project Arjun, CVRDE.

It was during the recent Republic Day Parade that Arjun MBT Mk II was first exhibited to the general public.

The tank is also being exhibited at the DefExpo-2014 which began in Delhi on Thursday. Arjun MBT Mk I is already in service with the Indian Army. Banking on indicators, the DRDO is expecting additional orders for Arjun Mk II by early next year.

The DRDO said that Arjun MBT Mk II was substantially cheaper than contemporary tanks in its class to meet the battlefield challenges of the 21st century. However, Army sources say that a few of the improvements need to be further refined.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 07 Feb 2014 19:59

rkhanna wrote:Its high time India sent the Arjun to this:

Tank Biathlon 2014 World Championship rules and invitation
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b57_1391 ... 1#comments

The defense ministries of five states have declared the intention to use their own hardware in the tank biathlon 2014 world championship, Russian Armed Forces Main Combat Training Department head Lt. Gen. Ivan Buvaltsev said on Thursday.
"Five states said they would drive their own vehicles in tank biathlon 2014. These are Ukraine, Greece, the Czech Republic, Italy and China," the general told foreign military attaches in Moscow.

Your request is being seriously considered.

Indian Army mulls taking part in tank biathlon

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Feb 2014 21:23

Arjun Main Battle Tank Gears up for Final Leg of Trials

...
As per the schedule, the prototype of Arjun MBT Mk II will have to undergo five phases of user trials, out of which three have been completed at the Mahajan and Pokhran Field Firing Ranges.

CVRDE Director Dr P Sivakumar, told ‘Express’ on Thursday that in the fourth phase of trial, the tank would have to be tested for obstacle crossing and medium fording (water) capabilities.

“The concluding phases of the user trials will begin in May 2014. There are 89 improvements being undertaken on the Mk II tank, out of which 74 are related to tank-fittable ones and the remaining 15 are other improvements such as ammunition development,” Sivakumar said.
...
...
The DRDO said that Arjun MBT Mk II was substantially cheaper than contemporary tanks in its class to meet the battlefield challenges of the 21st century. However, Army sources say that a few of the improvements need to be further refined.
...

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 08 Feb 2014 00:37

SanjayC wrote:
rkhanna wrote:Its high time India sent the Arjun to this:

Tank Biathlon 2014 World Championship rules and invitation
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b57_1391 ... 1#comments

The defense ministries of five states have declared the intention to use their own hardware in the tank biathlon 2014 world championship, Russian Armed Forces Main Combat Training Department head Lt. Gen. Ivan Buvaltsev said on Thursday.
"Five states said they would drive their own vehicles in tank biathlon 2014. These are Ukraine, Greece, the Czech Republic, Italy and China," the general told foreign military attaches in Moscow.
Your request is being seriously considered.

Indian Army mulls taking part in tank biathlon

^^^^^^Another round of trials or Russian blessings for Arjun!

Alas! But that doesn't appear to be the case ..It mentions about the familiarity with Ts
As people over here say ..if wishes were horses..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2014 16:28

Arjun Mk2

http://i.imgur.com/WFuOntR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ggVOJDq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/v20O2YJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ygDJ6pp.jpg

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 08 Feb 2014 22:14

The first and last pics are awesome. The first time I am seeing Arjun running with its gun barrel less than 45 degree angle.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 08 Feb 2014 23:22

The Arjun now looks loaded for bear, bristling with weapons and sensors.

If the T-90 is our fast-speed penetration tank, I suppose the Arjun is the breakthrough tank, no? The one that punches holes in predetermined defenses for the much weaker T-90s to exploit by moving through into the enemy's rear areas.

It makes one sad to see the plastic surgery Arjun has to go through to be accepted by the Indian Army even in basic numbers while the T-90 trials breeze through towards acceptance.

I suspect the next war against Pakistan will convert any Indian tankers who survive the T-90s to move to Arjuns instead. The T-90 forces are slated for a massacre in any future war.

IMO, of course.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Feb 2014 09:51

Arjun Mk2 Defexpo Video

akash_k · Post by **akash_k** » 10 Feb 2014 20:51

It's kind of odd that the MkII has the mine plough attached in most of the pics. Let's hope they are not doing all the trials with it attached.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Feb 2014 08:26

Why not, when it is one of the main modifications to the vehicle.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 11 Feb 2014 10:39

I suppose this is a video of Mk1.I assume the mine plough is just a tact to hide the exact pulling power of arjun

akash_k · Post by **akash_k** » 11 Feb 2014 15:54

Nothing wrong.. just being skeptical, because of the way the army has been treating the project.

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Feb 2014 12:51

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2014 15:48

The RCWS is from Samsung Techwin.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Feb 2014 17:21

http://www.forceindia.net/ArmsandtheMen.aspx ( Excerpts from FORCE )

Arms and the Men
Modernisation of the defence forces is critical to maintain stability in the subcontinent

By Lt Gen Dalip Bhardwaj (Retd)
(The writer is former Director General Mechanised Forces)

Current Status-Armour
The current holding of tanks exceed 3000 comprising the T-72M1 which is the mainstay of the Armoured Corps, a number of regiments of the state-of-the-art T-90S and the indigenous Arjun tanks. An AFV once inducted is expected to be in service for 34 years before being declared obsolete. Hence, after a tank has been in service for a decade, a comprehensive modernisation package is initiated which is expected to be implemented within a span of five years, so as to ensure that the tank holds its own in the battlefield for the balance second half of its life in service.

As a plethora of vendors are involved in modernising various sub-systems, the package is never introduced as a whole, hence, slippages occur and the tank is not available to the user for protracted periods. Ideally, the modernisation package must be implemented when the tank is withdrawn for its mid-life overhaul, however, this is only on paper as the schedule of overhaul and the modernisation package never coincide leading to a disjointed effort and wasteful expenditure.

Tank T-72 M1: The tank was inducted into service in the early Eighties and after three decades the tanks issued to the first few regiments are being withdrawn from service without any major modernisation scheme being implemented. The modernisation programme includes:

• Mobility: Uprating the engine to 1000 HP to ensure that the power to weight ratio is maintained despite having added additional weight. Trials for a suitable power pack were initiated a decade ago without success. The most suitable choice is the engine of the T-90 tank duly modified which would also ensure commonality of parts and reduction of the logistic chain.

• Firepower: The most critical scheme is removal of night blindness by introducing the thermal imaging sight and enhancing its accuracy by fitting a modern fire control system. As regards night blindness, the older tanks were to be fitted with a thermal imaging stand alone sight (TISAS) and the newer tanks with a full solution fire control system (TIFCS).

Whereas the TISAS programme has been successfully implemented, the delay has been in introducing the TIFCS. The plan to adopt the T-90 TIFCS was initiated which should have been the ideal solution, however due to issues of non-compliance of electro-magnetic interference/compatibility (EMI/EMC) the project was delayed. It is expected that both systems will be introduced by the end of 2014.

• Protection: To give added protection two projects were initiated. First was the fitment of the explosive reactive armour (ERA) panels against chemical energy ammunition attack and second was the more ambitious Active Protection System (APS). Whereas the ERA panels are cleared and fitment is in progress, the APS which was included later will take time to be implemented due to its complexity and cost.

Tank T-90S: The T-90S tank was first shown in Russia in 1993 and was procured by India in 2002. A total of 657 tanks were imported from Russia with a contract to manufacture 1000 tanks at HVF Avadi. Despite being a tank of recent origin, an upgraded package has already been formalised and would be implemented within the next three-five years. Notwithstanding, by the end of the decade at least 25 Armoured Regiment would be equipped with this state-of-the-art tank. The modernisation projects include:-

• Firepower: The TIFCS has been given dual control with the Commander being able to exercise the same functions as the gunner. The 12.7 mm AD machine gun to be upgraded to a dual axis stabilised remote controlled weapon system. To engage moving targets more effectively, an automatic target tracker (ATT) needs to be fitted. The effectiveness of the Invar missile has to be enhanced to penetrate up to 1000 mm armour thickness.

• Protection: The greatest benefit would be the fitment of the APS to defeat both the CE and KE ammunition. In addition, the ERA panels are to be upgraded to enhance protection by 250 mm, thereby even degrading a KE projectile to a very large extent.

• Miscellaneous: To ensure that electronics in the tank function at peak efficiency even during the peak summer temperatures, an environment control system will be fitted. In addition to ensure that the life of the main engine is conserved an auxiliary power unit to be fitted. For better situational awareness, a battlefield management system will be fitted supported by a software defined radio (SDR).

With the implementation of the above modernisation package, hopefully, within the next three-five years the T-90S will dominate the battlefield till 2030-35.

Arjun MK II: After having inducted 124 Arjun MK I tanks in two armoured regiment, the additional order will be for Arjun MK II tanks. The Arjun MK II would be a quantum jump as regards its capability and of the 89 modifications recommended, most of the minor upgrades have been completed, however trials are currently ongoing as regards firing of the LAHAT missile from the gun barrel as also enhancing the power of the engine to cater for the additional weight of the tank due to fitment of ERA panels and the mine ploughs.

Current Status

Mechanised Infantry: The BMP-2 was the most advanced infantry combat vehicle when inducted into service and despite being in service for more than four decades, it has retained its superiority in the battlefield. A comprehensive package was designed for the BMP-2M (modernised) and many of the smaller upgrades have been installed, however the main upgrades still pending are:

• Mobility: With an increase in the weight the power pack was planned to be enhanced from 280 HP to 360 HP by the indigenous industry. Unfortunately, no suitable engine has yet been cleared.

• Firepower: A TIFCS was to be installed, however to date only a night sight to fire the Konkurs missile has been fitted. The automatic grenade launcher and the twin missile launcher have not yet cleared trials.

• Protection: To enhance its protection the ERA panels were to be developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) which are yet to be cleared by the users.

FICV: The Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) was cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) as a ‘Make’ project to the Indian industry in 2010. It was to be a showcase project wherein the private sector would commence to play a major role in the design, development and manufacture of defence equipment.

However, despite three years of planning and negotiation by the initial four vendors (Tata, Mahindra, Larsen and Toubro and Ordnance Factory Board) the MoD has not been able to shortlist them to the final two players who are to be funded to design and develop 10 prototypes within five years. With the delay in selection of the final vendors the entire project has slipped and it is unlikely to fructify before 2018-19. Hence, the modernisation of the BMP-2 M needs a greater impetus as it would have to be retained in service beyond the anticipated deadline.

Future Trends

FMBT: The GSQR for the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) has been finalised and the DRDO was co-opted during the formulation exercise. With the experience gained in the design and development of the Arjun tank, this project should be completed by the DRDO in a quicker timeframe.

Wheeled Vehicles: As mentioned earlier in the article, there is an urgent need to introduce wheeled armoured fighting vehicles in service. In fact, what is required is a family of wheeled vehicles based on a common chassis for an ICV, Command Post, AD Weapon system, Light Tank, logistic vehicle etc. These vehicles would play a major role in the high altitude and mountainous areas, riverine and urban terrain, OOAC operations and equipping the Air Assault Division.

Conclusion
There have been large slippages in the modernisation of the mechanised forces and the onus lies on all stakeholders to expedite the process. The time has now come to put in a more concerted effort in finalising the modernisation projects in a time-bound manner.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Feb 2014 18:15

Depressing conclusion,appealing modernisation.Over 5 yrs. ago IDR
predicted large problems for the IA with its armoured ambitions given the multifarious projects ,upgrades ,manufacture of new T-90s,Arjuns,etc.it hs all come to pass. These have also been rather straightforward upgrades,etc.Frankly,the DPSUs across the board have bitten off more than they can chew and certainly in the design,development and manufacture of armoured vehicles,there are Indian cos. like Tatas,L&T,Mahindras,A-Leyland,etc.,which can do the business.They must be encouraged with funds/incentives for R&D and certain items reserved for them alone to allow the established DPSUs to look after the more complex and sophisticated items.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Feb 2014 18:35

Lt Gen Dalip Bhardwaj is the same person who, as DGMF capped arjun Mk1 numbers at 124, stalled comparative trials with T-90 for as long as possible, in other words did his best to scuttle the desi project.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Feb 2014 19:30

Rahul M wrote:Lt Gen Dalip Bhardwaj is the same person who, as DGMF capped arjun Mk1 numbers at 124, stalled comparative trials with T-90 for as long as possible, in other words did his best to scuttle the desi project.

I heard the same thing on DFI

Some more additional Armour Force Structure from FORCE , just posting excerpts on Armour

http://www.forceindia.net/BuyerCallstheShots.aspx

Buyer Calls the Shots
The ongoing modernisation of the armed forces offer unprecedented opportunities for indigenisations
By Atul Chandra & Dilip Kumar Mekala

Armour
The Indian Army’s Armoured Corps has also been affected by the slowdown in the economy that has impacted the modernisation drive to replace/upgrade its massive tank fleet. This means that armoured regiments will have to make do with their older tanks which suffer from night blindness, lack modern fire control systems and have underpowered power packs.

The Indian Army will continue to field close to 3,000 upgraded T-72 and T-90 MBTs over the next two decades, with the T-90s serving till 2030 and beyond. Almost half of the 1,657 T-90 tanks planned have already been inducted as of last year. The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) also approved the manufacture of an additional 235 T-90S tanks worth almost Rs 6,000 crore last year. The Indian Army is now said to have only 800 T-90 tanks in service out of a planned total of 1,657 (plus 235 from the latest order).

In August last year, Bharat Dynamic Limited (BDL), Hyderabad, signed a contract for supplying Invar Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGM) to the Indian Army valued at Rs 3,000 crore. Deliveries are expected to be completed by 2018 and BDL has been manufacturing these missiles under technical collaboration with M/s Rosoboronexport of Russia. The T-90 is capable of firing the Invar which is a laser beam rider ATGM. It has a range of five km and is capable of destroying enemy tanks fitted with Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) protection. There are also plans for the license manufacture and delivery of advanced 3UBK20 (Mango) tank ammunition. All 16,000 rounds from a 2010 order for Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition would have been delivered by now.

The shortage of ammunition for the T-72 and T-90 tanks has been an area of concern for quite a while now as indigenous efforts to produce state-of-the-art ammunition have not been very successful. The ageing T-72 tanks have experienced bursting tank barrels, with over 200 such cases having been reported last year according to reports in the media. Reports now suggest that the T-72s will have their main gun barrels replaced with that of the T-90 and approximately 800 T-90 barrels are likely to be procured in the near future. Facilities for overhaul of Tank T-72 were established in 1994 at HVF Avadi and in order to enhance the annual overhaul capacity, parallel facilities for overhaul were also created at 505 Army Base Workshop in 2005.

The Arjun Mark-II MBT is undergoing user trials and if all goes well, production orders should be placed next year. As per plans, at present orders for 118 Arjun Mark-IIs have been placed and HVF Avadi would be in a position to deliver the first tank 30 months after the order is placed. With a production rate of 30 tanks a year, the entire order would be completed by 2021 (realistically, this is likely to slip by a few years). Deliveries for 124 Arjun Mark-I tanks are now complete and 43rd armoured regiment at Jaisalmer and 75th armoured regiment have 45 tanks each. No further orders are expected for the Mark-I, which cost Rs 20 crore a piece. The cost for each Arjun Mark-II is estimated at around Rs 34-37 crore.

Major improvements featured on MBT Arjun MK II over MK I
1 To provide Missile Firing Capability using LAHAT missile and Add-on Laser Target designator
2 Commander’s Panoramic Sight with Thermal Imager will provide day and night surveillance with third generation thermal Imager
3 Ten round containerized bin for enhanced crew protection
4 Roof Mounted Driver’s Seat (RMDS) that provides protection for driver against mine blast
5 Uncooled Thermal Imager (Driver's Night Sight) that facilitates night driving through sight with Thermal Imager
6 Incorporation of Mine plough with magnetic signature duplicator. The Magnetic Signature duplicator will detonate magnetically influenced mine ahead to tank by projecting magnetic image of tank
7 Incorporation of Explosive Reactive Armour panels that provide protection against tandem warheads and kinetic energy projectiles.
8 Remote firing of Air Defence gun (360 degrees) by the loader with hatch closed
9 Effective Alternate to Muzzle Reference System (MRS)
10 Advanced Land Navigation System that provides for navigation using GPS and inertial navigation
11 Automatic Target Tracking (ATT) in Gunner’s Main Sight that aids the gunner to automatically track the target enhancing accuracy and provides for ease of engagement
12 Advanced Running Gear System that caters for increased weight of ARJUN MBT MK II (about 66 tons)
13 New track with increased horn height to cater for increased weight of ARJUN MBT MK II (about 66 tons)
14 New final drive with increased reduction ratio that enhances tractive effort and caters for increased weight with added benefits
15 Laser Warning Countermeasure System enables identification threats and taking evasive action using smoke Grenade Discharger
16 New types of ammunition with increased penetration cater for the current threat spectrum
17 Resin based Combustible Case Cartridge for ammunition
18 It provides effective camouflage against detection through thermal imager

Since 2012, the Indian Army has also been seeking to upgrade its Infantry Combat Vehicles from BMP-2/2K to BMP-2M along with a new power pack for an estimated cost of Rs 8,000 crore (USD 1.3 billion). The BMP-2 is the main combat vehicle used by mechanised infantry units of the Indian Army.

As per the Request for Information (RFI) that has been released by the army “BMP-2M is envisaged to have the same physical specifications as BMP-2/2K with minor changes. The thrust of upgrades will be to provide better observation and surveillance, night-fighting capability, fire control system, improved ATGM system and 30mm Automatic Grenade Launcher (AGL) to provide capability to engage dead ground to support assault of dismounted troops. The changes should be without replacement of existing turret, with minimum cutting of armour.” Approximately 1,400 ICVs are expected to be upgraded.

The army is also looking for a ‘new power pack with a minimum 360 HP engine including running gear and suspension’ for its BMP-2/2Ks. Presently, they are fitted with indigenised UTD-20 engines. According to the army, the UTD-20 engine has a power output of 285 (±15) which is inadequate for BMP-2/2K as it, affects ‘cross country mobility, floatation and gradient negotiating capability’ and is unable to take any add-ons. The new engine with running gear and suspension will offer better mobility, acceleration and gradability (ability to climb slopes). Requirements as per the RFI call for power-pack life expectancy of 8,000 km/800 hr and ability to operate at an altitude of 14,000 feet with adequate power to negotiate obstacles, among others.

wig · Post by **wig** » 17 Feb 2014 15:41

hydrojets will be fitted on the BMP to enhance amphibious capability of combat vehicles . the speeds on water will increase from 7kmph to 12 kmph and is capable of being used in sea borne operations where tides will also play a part!

The Army is modifying its BMP-2 infantry combat vehicles to enhance their amphibious capability, especially for sea-borne assault operations. The Corps of Electronics and Mechanical Engineers (EME) along with the private industry has undertaken the project, which will involve retrofitting hydrojets on either side of the combat vehicles for propulsion in water. These jets would increase their power and speed, overcoming the limitation of using the BMP’s tracks for propulsion.

The BMP is a fully amphibious combat vehicle and uses its tracks to “swim” while negotiating water obstacles like rivers. The hydrojets will increase its amphibious speed from 7 kph to 12 kph in seas.

According to Army officers, enhanced speed and power have impact during operations in the seas where tides and high water levels have to be taken into account. Higher speeds and power would give commander greater options while planning operations.

The Army has several versions of the BMP that equip the Mechanised Infantry Regiment and the Brigade of Guards. Some specialised versions are also in service with the armoured corps and the engineers. Though of Russian origin, they are manufactured in India by the ordnance factories.

There are over 1,500 BMPs in service with the Army. The Army also has a project to upgrade its entire fleet of BMPs with better armour protection, enhanced mobility and increased firepower.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140217/nation.htm#16

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 17 Feb 2014 19:05

vivek_ahuja wrote: ....... I suspect the next war against Pakistan will convert any Indian tankers who survive the T-90s to move to Arjuns instead. The T-90 forces are slated for a massacre in any future war.

IMO, of course.

But then IA will buy the sooper duuuper tank T xyz !!!

John · Post by **John** » 17 Feb 2014 20:09

vivek_ahuja wrote:
I suspect the next war against Pakistan will convert any Indian tankers who survive the T-90s to move to Arjuns instead. The T-90 forces are slated for a massacre in any future war.

IMO, of course.

Why the negative attitude if T-90 performs poorly so will Arjun especially if former turn it into urban warfare and considering their experience helping insurgents across border develop shaped charges to take out M1s.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Feb 2014 20:20

The efp ied's in iraq were probably the work of ex iraqi artillery types because abandoned shells were used.not that tspa cannot do it. But these are useful in post war insurgency mode only under indian boots.

In actual hot war phase any sensible army will seek to avoid combat in congested urban areas instead just pound it from a distance or bottle up and bypass render them irrelevant to eventual outcome. Thats also the mode of deep battle, seeking to sit astride enemy logistics in the rear and force a surrender of frontal units or tightening of the steel ring in stages on the pocket....ie pincer type envelopment moves in stalingrad, and smolensk and moscow earlier.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 17 Feb 2014 23:11

John wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:
I suspect the next war against Pakistan will convert any Indian tankers who survive the T-90s to move to Arjuns instead. The T-90 forces are slated for a massacre in any future war.

IMO, of course.

Why the negative attitude if T-90 performs poorly so will Arjun especially if former turn it into urban warfare and considering their experience helping insurgents across border develop shaped charges to take out M1s.

My comment was not about urban conflict scenario (for which tanks are extremely vulnerable including the 60-70 ton behemoths as well).

Instead, my concern is that the T-90s weak protection systems do not offer any credible defense against standard infantry and armor weapons available to the Pakis or Cheen. The idea that the smaller, low-profile and fast tanks will out-maneuver the defenses is IMO rendered obsolete considering the accuracy and intelligence of today's munitions. Today the deal is to fight on the move, which the Arjun can do and the T-90s do not; to deliver punches but also be capable of taking them on (where again the Arjun thanks to the heavy Kanchan armor + ERA is superior to the T-90 turret dome armor);

John · Post by **John** » 18 Feb 2014 00:51

vivek_ahuja wrote:
My comment was not about urban conflict scenario (for which tanks are extremely vulnerable including the 60-70 ton behemoths as well).

Instead, my concern is that the T-90s weak protection systems do not offer any credible defense against standard infantry and armor weapons available to the Pakis or Cheen. The idea that the smaller, low-profile and fast tanks will out-maneuver the defenses is IMO rendered obsolete considering the accuracy and intelligence of today's munitions. Today the deal is to fight on the move, which the Arjun can do and the T-90s do not; to deliver punches but also be capable of taking them on (where again the Arjun thanks to the heavy Kanchan armor + ERA is superior to the T-90 turret dome armor);

I don't understand what you are trying to say tanks having fighting on the move North African theater in WW2. Smaller tanks require less logistics that is what Soviet doctrine called for with since days of T-34 it has nothing to do with stealth and speed. As yourself noted with standoff weapons and insurgency tactics it will hard to maintain supply line this day age compare to any previous conflict. IMO it is not going come down to the tank you can easily ride Karachi with bunch of T-72, but rather who can maintain air superiority and cripple enemy lines while avoiding getting dragged into urban warfare.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Feb 2014 02:08

err John, nope.
a) arjun does have superior armour and would survive more hits than t-90
b) even when hit and paralyzed it will still keep its crew safe most of the time, unlike the t-90 which will kill its own crew by sympathetic explosion every time the ammo is hit.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Feb 2014 03:53

I wasn't arguing which tank is superior, what do we achieve with T-90 bashing. It is fine tank and both have their advantages and disadvantages let's leave at that and focus on other matters.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 18 Feb 2014 08:52

John wrote:I wasn't arguing which tank is superior, what do we achieve with T-90 bashing. It is fine tank and both have their advantages and disadvantages let's leave at that and focus on other matters.

bunch of bs. what advantages does the t-90 give us over arjun?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Feb 2014 11:33

John wrote:I wasn't arguing which tank is superior, what do we achieve with T-90 bashing. It is fine tank and both have their advantages and disadvantages let's leave at that and focus on other matters.

Well said and i agree with that. However, it will be very difficult to do time pass in this thread without bashing Army for decisions it made in the past.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Feb 2014 12:06

John wrote:I wasn't arguing which tank is superior, what do we achieve with T-90 bashing.

what do we achieve with bashing politicians, pakistan, DRDO, DPSU's ? nothing ?!
but as long as any of these perform below par people will bash them.

and as long this stupid tank puts lives of Indian soldiers at risk it will be bashed.

It is fine tank and both have their advantages and disadvantages let's leave at that and focus on other matters.

sounds like 'India and Pakistan are both victims of terror, there are extremists on both sides' etc.

t-90 might have some irrelevant advantages (minimal commonality with t-72's). other than that it is not only inferior to the arjun on every single parameter that counts (firepower, protection, sensor, mobility, ability to operate in desert environment) but its weaknesses render it obsolete on the modern battlefield.
heck, even the russian army doesn't want to touch it.

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always trust nelson to twist the narrative into one about 'bashing army'

FWIW, by that token if you talk about corruption in India, you are bashing India.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 18 Feb 2014 22:04

I was going to post a response but I think Rahul M has already done a much better job of that, so I will refrain.

But I will say this because I am starting to see this increasing trend on BRF to equate criticizing the army's decisions on technology and acqusitions with criticizing the army in general. I think this is one of the most nonsensical arguments used to prop up an indefensible decision made by the Army regarding it's tank forces, it's artillery forces and it's infantry rifles, to name a few.

Fast is that these criticisms arise only because the folks on the forum care about the Indian soldiers and what they do day after day. But not all those in uniform who make decisions are worthy of such respect. A few are corrupt and have been caught. Others have vested interests which are harder to prove. And bad apples are always present in every bunch.

"Criticize one == criticize all" is a baseless line of accusation and reflects more on the individual making such arguments rather than the person it's intended for.

The T-90 was designed on a battle concept meant for the 1980s and 1990s. Yes, it has been upgraded since. But combat experience in last two decades have shown that crew survivability in the face of highly lethal and accurate anti-armor munitions is a very important need.

The Indian army battle concept is not based on that of the soviet union. I hope!