Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Singha
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2012 21:11

do the french use std "ieee 1553" (or whatever its called) buses and interfaces on their weapons and planes or they use some proprietary std?

if its a std system then integrating american, israel and indian stuff that does not need radar help should be feasible without much of a headache like GBU, CBU, aim9x, python5, crystal maze, KEPD.....but stuff that uses midcourse datalinks and radar interface like amraam, HARM-2 or astra will need serious work.

shiv
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shiv » 31 Jan 2012 21:13

Singha wrote:do the french use std "ieee 1553" (or whatever its called) buses and interfaces on their weapons and planes or they use some proprietary std?

if its a std system then integrating american, israel and indian stuff that does not need radar help should be feasible without much of a headache like GBU, CBU, aim9x, python5, crystal maze, KEPD.....but stuff that uses midcourse datalinks and radar interface like amraam, HARM-2 or astra will need serious work.



I think that is a standard followed by all western bloc aircraft. Not 400% sure though.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kersi D » 31 Jan 2012 21:15

Singha wrote:I hope serious talks begin soon on the weapons pkg and strategic projects like the kaveri-snecma should also get a moral boost due to this.

for cost reasons, we should likely buy and sign into contract to integrate
- amraamc7
- sudarshan
- astra
- nirbhay-a
- anything else we come up with that fits
- python5 for the knife fight
- certain models of GBU and CBU we select (not all needed)
- crystal maze
- taurus or storm shadow if we purchase in limited nos
- SDB2
- helina as desi brimstone :evil:


else the cost of a totally french weapons pkg will exceed that of the 'main' deal :rotfl:

essentials:
Mica-ER
CFT
RBE2-EE
M88-EPE
OSF2
spherical MAWS
towed decoy
Spectra5



Scalp / Storm Shadow?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby abhijitm » 31 Jan 2012 21:16

Vipul wrote:I hope the final deal negotiated includes france providing nuclear submarine know-how.

I can live with Kaveri know how :)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22605 » 31 Jan 2012 21:16

^^
AASM?

SaiK
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2012 21:23

yes 1553b mil is a std by 100%.
All of the Rafale's avionics and electronics were integrated through four Mil Std 1553B data buses and two Mil Std 1760 data buses. The latter operate in the ADA language and enable use of most modern types of weapons. Integration was achieved through two Dassault Electronique (presently Thales) mission computers, replaced by a single, more capable computer on the F2 standard and above. The heart of the navigation system is formed by two Sagem (Paris, France) Sigma 95N (RL90) laser-gyro inertial-navigation systems (INSs) with embedded GPS receivers from Thales. Thales also delivered the NC 12E TACAN, the TLS-2020 multi-mode receiver (MMR), and the AHV-17 radar altimeter, the latter of which was later replaced by the AHV2930. The TLS2020 MMR performs various functions: instrumental-landing-system (ILS) and microwave-landing-system (MLS) functions for approach and landing operations and VHF-omnidirectional-range (VOR) functions for en-route navigation. The AHV2930 digital radio-altimeter has an extended range of to 10,500 feet in altitude with optimized performance for very low-level flight, as well as a low probability of detection.
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199 ... afale.html


Have we advanced from ADA-95 ahead ++ to some O.O. based snake language? the 95 do cover timed deadline issues etc.

BTW, by what margin did Rafale win? any links?

member_22635
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22635 » 31 Jan 2012 21:30

A very good opportunity to extract most out of this deal. Rafale was rejected by almost every country it was offered to. So now India being the first and such a big customer. We should buy 126 planes as per the deal, get max ToT and a good weapon package, and for the other Indo-French deals like the Kaveri engine and more. The rest 80 can be used for separate extractions, get most out of it.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby abhik » 31 Jan 2012 21:30

But what is the price? No official figure?

member_22635
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22635 » 31 Jan 2012 21:30

Some say it was $5 million cheaper than Tiffy and some say 20%.
Does that mean we got it in $25 mil :P

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22635 » 31 Jan 2012 21:33

SaiK wrote:Great news.. finally it happened before many rakshaks kicking the buckets. Hail babudom to some extent!

--

Now, Rafale can start to work on these top 5:-
1. Kaveri++ for future Rafale, LCA, MCA, etc. [core thrust/must must musth..]
2. Retractable re-fueler pod
3. GaN based AESA radar
4. Soft code exchange for porting local, russian and american stores.
5. NBC integration


This can also be the way forward for FGFA/AMCA. Develop sub systems for upgrades (plus 80s if we buy) in Rafale and put it in FGFA as well.
Kaveri can also support LCA/AMCA

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby sanjeevpunj » 31 Jan 2012 21:36

When izzzzzzzz ze delivery? or kolavery dee france?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby karan_mc » 31 Jan 2012 21:38

recently rafale again made a offer to Switzerland

18 Rafale planes for 2.7 billion Swiss francs (2.24 billion euros, 2.96 billion dollars)


Do the maths :rotfl: :rotfl:

link

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ShauryaT » 31 Jan 2012 21:39

sooraj wrote:Dassault shares rose more than 22 percent in Paris trading to 749 euros, highest in 22 yrs :D
India becomes the white knight to the French! Our taxes at work. At least better than spending MNREGA :)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arun » 31 Jan 2012 21:40

In what I make out to be the first attributed on record quote that the Dassault Rafael is the frontrunner in the MMRCA deal, comment by French Minister of State for Foreign Trade, Pierre Lellouche :

"At this stage -- and I want to be cautious -- we are in a phase of exclusive negotiations,"


From here:

AFP: India picks France's Dassault for major jet deal

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nash » 31 Jan 2012 21:46

as per reports 36 months for first batch then another yea from hal .. so the timeline would be , assuming cotract sign on 31 march...

I sqd of 18 will be here by 2015 march then if we take average of 18 ac/ year then by 2022 march we will have all 126 Rafale ..

now if we select next 80 batch either rafale or tiffy or JSF(most probably) then may be separate production line with help of private firms .... let say if that would start by 2018 at the rate of 20(if JSF) then by 2022 we will have 126 rafale and 80 JSF.. :twisted:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby sanjeevpunj » 31 Jan 2012 22:07

Grrrrrrrrr that is slow........

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 31 Jan 2012 22:08

Sanjeev.... yes it is flipping slow! :evil:

The fat lady has just sung her first note. Its not over till the full aria comes to an end.

The pro is that the MoD/IAF are at an advantage over Dassault in the negotiations.And Dassault want it desparately

The con is that if we push them past breaking point and turn to EF, then EF has us by the short hairs.

With our economic growth slowing and the budget deficit much above target I do not think that the FM will want to release any money before 1st April. These contracts, normally have a clause for a % down payment on contract signing.

Let us hope it works out for the best for the IAF who need these a/c desperately. And if the french have some sense, they will negotiate a timeline and take a page out of the Khans book and deliver before time. This will wow their potential export customers even more. because the competition, (in countiries where it is not going to be bulldozed by the khans) will tell those markets that "The french have got more than they can handle with deliveries to India. That is a major deal compared to yours, why would they care about you?

been there, been stung by it :cry:

and used the strategy of early delivery to telling effect. :)
Last edited by rajanb on 31 Jan 2012 22:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sri » 31 Jan 2012 22:11

From Alps to Himalayas... Bienvenue Madame, de votre nouveau foyer,,, il a été une longue attente ..

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2012 22:13

hang on!.. me think CAG can still push a button looking at the money here.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Dmurphy » 31 Jan 2012 22:14

Image

Something tells me our PM is hardly excited about the MMRCA news :roll: :mrgreen:

Singha
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2012 22:15

^ PM is waiting for 10 janpath high command clearance to look up

ramana
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 31 Jan 2012 22:17

He is stoic.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby saurav.jha » 31 Jan 2012 22:28

One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defense ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... A820120131

What is this supposed to mean ..? :?:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Snehashis » 31 Jan 2012 22:31

Another 80 Super Sukhois ?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shiv » 31 Jan 2012 22:32

ramana wrote:He is stoic.

Cervical spondylosis. In the 8th decade of his life I bet his neck cannot turn up so high too see an aircraft up there.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 31 Jan 2012 22:33

saurav.jha wrote:
One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defense ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... A820120131

What is this supposed to mean ..? :?:


It means two things:

a) the rest of you guys who were not selected, all is not lost, you have a chance ONLY IF YOU DO NOT MISBEHAVE!(By trying to panga this deal)
b) to Dassault: You guys do a good job and you get more. If not, we'll see other alternatives.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby JohnTitor » 31 Jan 2012 22:35

My first post here after lurking for over 8 years.

Brilliant day to join BR! Its about time too! Congratulations :)

rajanb
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 31 Jan 2012 22:38

Welcome Shonu :D

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby sunnyP » 31 Jan 2012 22:38

Singha wrote:^ PM is waiting for 10 janpath high command clearance to look up



:lol: :lol:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2012 22:40

So, we need to see which version are we getting F3 or F4 Rafale? How has the pricing done for what etc?

--

PM ji would have got vertigo had he looked up! so please relax.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sanku » 31 Jan 2012 22:44

Singha wrote:do the french use std "ieee 1553" (or whatever its called) buses and interfaces on their weapons and planes .


Yes. They do.

===============================

I told you so+1;

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby karan_mc » 31 Jan 2012 22:48

RBE2 AESA radar will only come in Rafale F4 , but not sure if we are getting M-88-3 upgraded engine ??

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Snehashis » 31 Jan 2012 22:52

Nope. IAF refused any change in engine configuration after the trials cause it will change the flight characteristic of the aircraft.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nash » 31 Jan 2012 22:57

rajanb wrote:
It means two things:

a) the rest of you guys who were not selected, all is not lost, you have a chance ONLY IF YOU DO NOT MISBEHAVE!(By trying to panga this deal)
b) to Dassault: You guys do a good job and you get more. If not, we'll see other alternatives.


that would be the best way to keep dasault in time line and they follow all the imp. TOT properly

Singha
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2012 23:08

lol good way to control the losers.....great catch rajanb

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Vipul » 31 Jan 2012 23:08

Dmurphy wrote:Image

Something tells me our PM is hardly excited about the MMRCA news :roll: :mrgreen:


Yes, he would rather use that money for vote buying (MNREGA).

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby silod » 31 Jan 2012 23:09

Mr. Sarkozy must be saying. " le merci l'Inde pour choisir RAFALE (Thank you India for purchasing RAFALE)". Good news and actually the continuation of a long tradition of buying military hardware from France (Cheetah, Mirage-2000 etc.). It is a high time that our Navy follows the same approach and look upto France for more purchase from them rather than Russia. With this deal, India should also look for the nuclear deal from France to meet our power requirements.

http://chaffandflare.blogspot.in/2011/0 ... chart.html

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2012 23:12

I would hate to hear screw-driver tech transfers again! this has to stop right away.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 31 Jan 2012 23:16

saurav.jha wrote:
One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defense ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... A820120131

What is this supposed to mean ..? :?:



Its to keep massa interested if they want to offer the JSF.
India has to bail another a/c company in West.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rags » 31 Jan 2012 23:17

I hope that we will wring the Frenchies dry technology wise on this one. This should be the last such deal.


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