Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36423
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2012 23:20

our next strategy should not ToT at all.. we will write the specs, and ask international builders to join us for sub-systems and integration help. la mahindra & mahindra model. all will work for us 99% rather supply for us.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3592
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby fanne » 31 Jan 2012 23:22

Well some news....I hope we get it before any showdown on the high Himalayas!!

nitinr
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 89
Joined: 10 Aug 2008 17:35

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nitinr » 31 Jan 2012 23:23

Seems there is a strategic shift to french wares from Indian side.
Scorpene (+3 might also be ordered to make a total of 9)
Snecma + Kaveri
Rafael
Nuke reactors
And I feel there is more to come. (consultancy for 4 LPD's (mistral) / maitri)
Now the Q is what are we gettign or might be getting under the table for helping french with all this. I mean this is kind of new India - USSR friendship in making. And we know how Russia helped us.
So what can we get / getting from French. Any ideas??

silod
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 14:20

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby silod » 31 Jan 2012 23:24

What about asking them to supply the robust engines for our MCA (big brother of LCA)????

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55232
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 31 Jan 2012 23:25

Keeps the Continentals in business in their fight against Anglo-Saxon powers.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby RamaY » 31 Jan 2012 23:26

^ Rubbing it in huh, Ramanaji :)

nawabs
BRFite
Posts: 1637
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nawabs » 31 Jan 2012 23:30

Livefist Blog
Sources: EADS seriously considering contesting #Rafale selection in #MMRCA. Not without a fight, apparently.


From:
http://twitter.com/livefist

kelesis
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011 12:05

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby kelesis » 31 Jan 2012 23:35

AHAHAHAHAHAH!

This is sooooo good , With the support of India, no doubt Brazil and UAE will follow soon.

This is very very painfull for EF consortium... Wait for public reactions. I think brits and germans will split definitely and some program upgrades will be dropped.

Champagne!

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sanku » 31 Jan 2012 23:37

kelesis wrote:Champagne!


Pass some this way too please.

:D

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2012 23:38

>> I hope that we will wring the Frenchies dry technology wise on this one. This should be the last such deal.

technology is a moving goalpost. the goal should be making ourself part of the global ecosystem via stakes , JVs and projects not a one-time "grab and run" deal followed by a mythical isolationism - we see where isolationism got mediaeval japan and later the soviet union...they inevitably lagged decades behind.

we need to get into as many projects and ventures as possible with global supply chain starting from nuts, bolts and seats upto the big stuff. only then will we eventually emerge as a "source" of "saleable" technology products....we are lagging in many areas where the french are top shelf players. linkages between industry, CSIR and Govt labs need to be built with french academia and industry...our collabs with academia and govt labs in france, germany, sweden , korea, taiwan and japan look limited due to cultural and language issues vs with canada/uk/usa. there are some things we can get from them with less hassle than the anglosphere...like ISRO sources much of its special kit from german industry and seems to have access to space testing facilities like vacuum chambers there....khan would kick us out in a heartbeat if we stepped out of line.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/joint-ventur ... 0-119.html
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... titute-574
Last edited by Singha on 31 Jan 2012 23:45, edited 3 times in total.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17066
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rahul M » 31 Jan 2012 23:42

true gyan.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36423
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2012 23:48

I hope not see a version of katrina in the hands of chippanda nations in the future. she has already exposed herself to these nations in some enticing manner.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2772
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Prem Kumar » 31 Jan 2012 23:49

rajanb wrote:
It means two things:

a) the rest of you guys who were not selected, all is not lost, you have a chance ONLY IF YOU DO NOT MISBEHAVE!(By trying to panga this deal)
b) to Dassault: You guys do a good job and you get more. If not, we'll see other alternatives.


It also means 1 more thing (related to (b)):

b2) If you renege on your ToT commitments or other, unpublicized strategic commitments (Kaveri, Nuke tech etc), you will not see a follow-on order.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2643
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cybaru » 01 Feb 2012 00:03

We should participate in Dassaults Neuron Project.. That is a game changer project as well..

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55232
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 01 Feb 2012 00:04

Now that Rafale is chosen what is IAF getting from this buy?

This is for the average lurker.

Thanks, ramana

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2579
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Katare » 01 Feb 2012 00:11

I am so glad that the deal has been completed in most professional manner, shows the DPP is maturing. This year we must have cleared deals worth $20billions with no significant controversy/scandal so far!

Great omen for our ill equipped armed force! Congratulations to all involved in completing it!

Curse on EADS if it tries to spoil our party!

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sanku » 01 Feb 2012 00:13

Katare wrote: shows the DPP is maturing.


But same DPP is not taken as a argument for C 17 blunder eh. :mrgreen:

girish.r
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 172
Joined: 17 Mar 2009 22:50
Location: Brussels

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby girish.r » 01 Feb 2012 00:14

one RAFA lost, and the other won! IAF pilots would be pleased to dance with katrina :mrgreen:

Great news!

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2579
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Katare » 01 Feb 2012 00:25

Sanku wrote:
Katare wrote: shows the DPP is maturing.


But same DPP is not taken as a argument for C 17 blunder eh. :mrgreen:


Every deal has to follow and had followed DPP, without compliance and approval of compliance from Defense Acquisition council, a deal would be illegal and can not be signed.

Your understanding and interpretation of DPP is unique and you have described it in detail in the C17 thread for benefit of all. You think I am ignorant and I think your opinion is biased because you are politically anti-American. We are not going to move an inch from these stated positions so lets leave it at that and not cause unnecessary pain to rest of the jingos here.

Lets toast the moment!
Last edited by Katare on 01 Feb 2012 00:26, edited 1 time in total.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1880
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 01 Feb 2012 00:26

ramana wrote:Now that Rafale is chosen what is IAF getting from this buy?

This is for the average lurker.

Thanks, ramana


With the right support package (AWACS, refuelers, etc), weapons package (METEOR, SCALP, etc), tactics and training, it should make India the dominant defensive and offensive air power in our region. It means that those who seek to challenge India's security will face highly credible dissuasion.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sanku » 01 Feb 2012 00:31

Katare wrote: you are politically anti-American.


Perish the thought. Not at all. I am quite certainly not anti American.

Lets toast the moment!


This is true.

:)

karan_mc
BRFite
Posts: 700
Joined: 02 Dec 2006 20:53

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby karan_mc » 01 Feb 2012 00:40

wht will be those 80 aircraft's for ?? if i remember correctly Strategic Forces Command (SFC) had demanded 40 aircraft's for nuke delivery and Navy wanted 40 carrier borne aircraft and only Rafale can be used in both roles , i think it is done to get best price out of french , just how we floated Ajt tender after Hawk purchase

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4524
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby putnanja » 01 Feb 2012 00:41

At last a decision! Good for the IAF! It was much quicker than other decisions like the AJT/Artillery/submarines etc. Hopefully, we should see the Rafale in IAF colors by 2014-2015.

So, India and France will be the only two countries flying the Rafale then. Hope that future upgrades and maintenance won't cost us an arm and a leg, as India tries to operate these aircraft much longer than the typical western forces.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8207
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nachiket » 01 Feb 2012 00:45

I missed all the excitement. :((
Hope they sign the damn thing soon. Can't wait to see the Rafale with IAF roundels.

saurav.jha wrote:
One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defense ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.



Oh no. Why did they have to say that? There goes another 10 years.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1900
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby sudeepj » 01 Feb 2012 00:49

What will the IAF fleet look like in 10 years time?

Mig29, Su30MKI, Mig21Bison, Mirage 2000, Mig 27, Jaguar, LCA, FGFA (?), AMCA (?) and Rafale.

Contrast with 15 years ago, when there were complaints that the fleet was a menagerie

Mig29, Mig21 (many variants), Mirage 2000, Mig 27, Mig 23, Jaguar, Canberra.

What capabilities does the Rafale (or the EF, for that matter) bring to the table? Will it stop the subconventional war from Pakistan? Will it stop the subconventional war from the Chinese in the NE and via the Maobadis?

If the Chinese decide to do a salami slicing operation under cover of their S300/S400 SAMs and challenge air superiority with their J20 fighter, can the Rafale hold its own? Further, can the Rafale do a better job than our MKIs or FGFAs? What about the cost of the expendables? Can you compare the cost of a MICA vs. an AMRAAM or an R77? How about capabilities?

To me, this appears to be a strange decision.

Ravishankar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 43
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 16:32

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Ravishankar » 01 Feb 2012 00:51

:twisted: Phew! Great choice...I was always rooting for Rafale. MKI, Rafale, LCA, PAK FA and AMCA, not a bad line up in the years to come.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55232
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 01 Feb 2012 01:03

Ajai Shukla in Business Standard. Good overall article with some irrelevant details..

IAF may get 126 Rafale Fighter Planes

Air Force may get 126 Rafale fighter planes
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi Feb 01, 2012, 00:37 IST

Size of mega deal could go up to Rs 75k cr.

The Rafale fighter aircraft built by France’s Dassault Aviation has emerged the lowest bidder in the contest to sell the Indian Air Force (IAF) 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. According to sources in the defence ministry, the Rafale has emerged marginally cheaper than its rival fighter, the Typhoon, fielded by a four-nation consortium, Eurofighter.

In reaching this conclusion, the IAF has calculated the Rafale would be cheaper than the Typhoon to buy, manufacture and fly over its entire four-decade service life. No prices have been made available, but MoD sources say the Rafale would cost some Rs 25 crore less than the Typhoon apiece.

The ministry did not respond to phone calls, an email and an SMS request for official confirmation.

However, Dassault sources confirm the ministry has informed the company that it has emerged the lowest bidder. Dassault remains unwilling to share details of its winning bid. A ministry committee, the Contract Negotiation Committee or CNC, will now engage with Dassault to hammer down the price before signing a contract.

The ministry had initially budgeted Rs 42,000 crore as the total cost of the 126-fighter contract. Ministry sources say India will, in fact, pay substantially more than that. The final deal size is subject to negotiations, and could go up to Rs 75,000 crore.

Dassault will be required to supply 18 “made-in-France” Rafales in three-four years. After that, manufacturing will progressively shift to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Bangalore, which will build a new manufacturing line for the Eurofighter.

The Indian contract is a lifeline to the beleaguered French company, which has so far failed to sell a single Rafale fighter abroad.

The French air force and navy have cut down their initially projected requirement of 336 fighters; so far, they have ordered just 180 Rafales. In a TV interview last month, France’s Defence Minister, Gerard Longuet, declared the Rafale production line would shut down if no foreign orders were forthcoming.

India will be the foreign buyer that resuscitates that production line. Muammar Gaddafi’s Libya had declared its interest in buying Rafales, but was overtaken by history. Ironically, the Rafale flew sorties against Gaddafi’s militia during the Libyan civil war last year. Brazil was earlier on the verge of ordering 36 Rafales, but new Brazilian president Dilma Rousseff does not share the pro-Dassault enthusiasm of her predecessor Luiz Inacio de Silva.

The Rafale will eventually equip six squadrons of the IAF, each authorised 21 fighters. It is a delta-wing fighter with canards, which make it highly manoeuvrable and also allow it to land at speeds as low as 200 kmph. This makes it suitable for aircraft carrier operations, a key advantage over the Typhoon.

The fighter needs just 1,300-1,400 feet of runway to get airborne, an advantage in operating from air bases close to the border. Two Snecma M88 engines power the Rafale, allowing it to “supercruise” or fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners. A key system is the Thales Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which is still under development. The Indian contract demands transfer of technology for the AESA radar.


The order of 126 Rafales caters only to the IAF’s requirement. The Indian Navy, too, has expressed interest in the Rafale (amongst several other fighters) for its aircraft carrier fleet. While the INS Vikramaditya (formerly, the Russian Gorshkov) will deploy MiG-29K fighters, the under-construction Indigenous Aircraft Carrier, with another vessel to follow, will also require carrier-borne fighters. A naval version of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is close to flying. However, there is likely to be an additional requirement for heavy fighters like the Rafale for the naval fleet. Experts have forecast India would eventually acquire about 200 medium multi-role combat aircraft.

The IAF evaluated six fighters for this massive contract -- Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; the Russian MiG-35; the Swedish Gripen NG; the Rafale and the Typhoon. After flight trials in 2010 and early 2011, the Rafale and the Typhoon were shortlisted in April 2011. Commercial bids from Dassault Aviation and Eurofighter GmbH were opened in November 2011. The IAF’s evaluation and selection processes have won widespread acclaim from aviation watchers worldwide.


jai
BRFite
Posts: 366
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 19:14

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby jai » 01 Feb 2012 01:05



Finally, some news !!

Made my day and the entire damn month !!

Time for you know what !!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55232
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 01 Feb 2012 01:05

So the extra 80 a/c are for IN and maybe two more sqds for IAF. The forces are very clear on their needs.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4820
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srai » 01 Feb 2012 01:14

At least, the IAF would not have to buy MICA AAMs ;)

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36423
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 01 Feb 2012 01:22

So, facts are twice in a row EADS/Cassadian folks faulting in the price/performance values, in narrow margins.. never took a risk or reducing the price, and jacking up on upgrades like the french do. learn how to market to Indian babooze EADS!

And, folks who keep saying India always give advanced information like satisfying everyone like Russians getting pak-fa instead of MMRCA, and france would have gotten the $3b upgrade, and so it must be EADS/Cassadian etc was wrong!

two emphatic points QED-ed.
---

so, per the 1553b standards, other embedded processors on the bus could be considered as memory data for the federated one. so, potentially we could engage any system to be monitored and controlled - all we need is rafale's central computer to accept to fire and control brahmos or astra or raytheon walas for that matter.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5423
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kartik » 01 Feb 2012 01:57

abhik wrote:But what is the price? No official figure?


That's where the final negotiations will come in..an official figure will not be available till it becomes official after lengthy negotiations where each side tries to push the other to the max.

anishns
BRFite
Posts: 1348
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 09:43
Location: being victim onlee...

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby anishns » 01 Feb 2012 02:09

From the Ajai Shukla article

Dassault will be required to supply 18 “made-in-France” Rafales in three-four years. After that, manufacturing will progressively shift to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Bangalore, which will build a new manufacturing line for the Eurofighter.
:mrgreen:

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4524
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby putnanja » 01 Feb 2012 02:13

How does the weapons package for Rafale compare pricewise with Typhoon?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36423
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 01 Feb 2012 02:18

^^interesting.. so the rafoon story line is getting a shape. :mrgreen:
--

VVV nrao
Last edited by SaiK on 01 Feb 2012 03:00, edited 1 time in total.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8207
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nachiket » 01 Feb 2012 02:19

ramana wrote:
[b]The Rafale will eventually equip six squadrons of the IAF, each authorised 21 fighters. It is a delta-wing fighter with canards, which make it highly manoeuvrable and also allow it to land at speeds as low as 200 kmph. This makes it suitable for aircraft carrier operations, a key advantage over the Typhoon.


I thought the standard strength of IAF fighter squadrons was 18. Shukla could be mistaken. The deal also calls for 18 off the shelf deliveries, not 21. Would be natural to get the first whole squadron from the manufacturer instead of an arbitrary number. That would also mean 7 squadrons, not six.

member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20067 » 01 Feb 2012 02:24

1. We should not repeat the same mistake that we did during Scorpeone Deal.. by skipping some key ToT issues...which later expanded the overall cost

2. Dassault might have padded up Mirage Upgrade deal to sweeten up MMRCA...makes all the business sense

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 01 Feb 2012 02:48

Ajay ji must be all lost:


Dassault will be required to supply 18 “made-in-France” Rafales in three-four years. After that, manufacturing will progressively shift to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Bangalore, which will build a new manufacturing line for the Eurofighter.



Ajatshatru wrote:FGFA, MKI, Rafale, Tejas....A formidable combination....



AMCA ?????? :shock:

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arthuro » 01 Feb 2012 03:18

I had to follow these news from work. Good for the rafale prgram. Meanwhile UAE talks have resumed very seriously which could lead to another 60 rafale export not to mention Brazil who must decide this spring for 36 aircrafts. 2012 could be an exeptionnal year for the rafale.

Rafale : Dassault into exclusive negotiations with India
Les Echos, jan 31


[...]
Sole candidate, Dassault has wide latitude to complete its victory even if the Eurofighter consortium is on the lookout for the slightest misstep of his rival. "The negotiations are likely to be very difficult, said Endre Lunde, a consultant at IHS Jane's, quoted by AFP. India is very demanding in terms of participation of local industry. "Of the 126 Rafale planned, 18 will be built in France, the other under license in India by HAL group . In addition to a good news for the budget of the Ministry of Defence is the promise of a significant workload for the many French firms involved in the program.

The Indian Army confirms by the way how highly it thinks of "made in France" weapons . Thales, combined with Dassault, recently signed a contract of EUR 1.5 billion to modernize its fifty Mirage 2000 in service. MBDA expects an agreement soon almost a billion to supply air to air missiles. And the selection of the Rafale by New Delhi could favorably influence the ongoing negotiations in the UAE.

Abu Dhabi is negotiating for more than three years now the purchase 60 copies of the French fighter. In November, the rant against Dassault, vilified as too expensive, has raised fears that all was lost. Wrongly, because since, the two parties resumed the negotiations, and very seriously, according to our information. "Good news are like bad news, they fly in squadron. Here is the beginning of a squadron of good news ", says Gerard Longuet, the defense minister ...

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10635
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rakesh » 01 Feb 2012 03:20

sudeepj wrote:What will the IAF fleet look like in 10 years time?

Mig29, Su30MKI, Mig21Bison, Mirage 2000, Mig 27, Jaguar, LCA, FGFA (?), AMCA (?) and Rafale.


Incorrect about the MiG-21. The last Bison will be phased out before the end of 2020. Saint Anthony has stated that the last MiG-21 will be phased out in 2017.

sudeepj wrote:What capabilities does the Rafale (or the EF, for that matter) bring to the table? Will it stop the subconventional war from Pakistan? Will it stop the subconventional war from the Chinese in the NE and via the Maobadis?


Will any other aircraft stop any of the events that you have stated? If the Pakis get an itch to attack, no matter what we have will deter them from meeting their promised 72s. You are not making any sense.

sudeepj wrote:If the Chinese decide to do a salami slicing operation under cover of their S300/S400 SAMs and challenge air superiority with their J20 fighter, can the Rafale hold its own?


First you list what the J-20 is capable of doing (from a reputable source) and then we can have this discussion.

sudeepj wrote:Further, can the Rafale do a better job than our MKIs or FGFAs? What about the cost of the expendables? Can you compare the cost of a MICA vs. an AMRAAM or an R77? How about capabilities?


The Rafale is not meant to replace the MKI, but rather complement it.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests