Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Badar
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Badar » 06 Feb 2012 12:18

Mort Walker wrote:Its not all about the number of T/R modules in the radar. You'd have to look at their efficiency as well as geometry. If you add to many modules, then proper beam forming can become difficult along with possible uncontrolled side lobes (which is a problem for clutter control). It is possible to do some engineering tricks to improve sensitivity, dynamic range and SNR. Raytheon has considerable involvement in the Thales radar and communications system when Thomson-CSF became Thales. I doubt we will get great details.

It is about the number of modules in the radar. All other things being equal - the more the better. If you have efficient design and geometry, then more modules of an efficient design and geometry are better. All the engineering tricks that improve performance work even better on a larger radar face with greater number of modules.

There are fully functioning operational systems with thrice that number without problems.

ramana wrote:Badar, Thanks. So in effective combat capability these 7 squadrons will be as effective as 10 squadrons of the old planes at a minimum considering the 3x capability and minus the infrastructure and lack of manpower to service them. Even then its a good shot in the arm for the IAF.

ramana, I think I should clarify - Forgive me for my run-on tortured sentences (I write them bit at a time alt-tabbing), which sometimes makes it unduly hard to get the import. I was not talking about just the 10 squadrons. Rafale induction results in a air fleet that has doubles the strike potential of the entire existing airforce, not just the MiG-21 squadrons replaced. Against China, our fleet strike potential should quadruple from our existing capability! Your conclusion is more conservative than what I suggested. The impact of Rafale on the IAF is enormous.

Once we know the details we can create a table that compares baseline Mig 21upgraded to Rafale, Jag, & Mirage 2000: throw weight, accuracy(from the RLG), effective damage quotient (throw weight/area of CEP) and sortie rate

That is not very useful I am afraid - what you are suggesting is very suitable for comparing artillery systems for example, but is pointless for air combat systems. It doesn't take into account capabilities increase - An aircraft that allows us to drop a LGB 1000nm away cannot be held equivalent to 10 aircraft dropping one 100nm miles away.

Your metric also doesn't take into account the probability of mission success and survivability which is truely what Rafale brings us in comparison to M2K or MKI against a formidable enemy.

Rafale is an expensive waste and adds zero to net IAF capabilities as compared to M2000 if the objective is to bomb Sri Lanka. But it is a very useful fillip if we are dealing with Pakistan. And it is becomes the vital component of the fleet when dealing with China. There is no universal xRafale=yM2K merit figure. Context is everything.

IMO, the best way to look at it is not in isolation like 1 Rafale is roughly as good as two M2K or 8 MiG-21. Rather take a holistic systems view and see what each platform brings to the overall IAF capability matrix with reference to each threat. And to calculate that we need to wait for the other shoe to drop - Jammers.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby tejas » 06 Feb 2012 13:00

The other thing about the Rafale deal that not many are speaking about was eluded to in an article posted earlier in this thread. Single crystal turbine blade tech. If India is to spend up to $ 20 billion on this deal that tech must be transferred. I think with the Rafale production line about to be shut down without this order, it will be.

PS. Look at the serrated edges for RCS reduction, the wing body blending, the stealthy air intakes... I just love this work of beauty..

Image

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22539 » 06 Feb 2012 13:40

Rakesh wrote:Katrina looks gorgeous! :)

[img*]http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2175/t2pix.jpg[/img]

From:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tempete_de_pixel/

Hi-Res wallpaper of the link above (4800*3200):
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/6...2fb69422do.jpg

Not sure of the photographer of this one...

[*img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9041/katrina.jpg[/img]

Dassault's advertisement....

[img*]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg252/scaled.php?server=252&filename=captureapc.jpg&res=medium[/img]


Katrina's cockpit is truly out of this world. Can anyone tell me why no one else has gone for such a big and beautiful HUD, surely it is superior to the tiny ones that we see even on the F-35 and other modern fighters.
Last edited by Rahul M on 06 Feb 2012 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: do not quote pics.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby VinayG » 06 Feb 2012 13:55

please tell me the raffys we are getting are fitted with retractable fuel probe the fixed one are a real eye sore

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby pragnya » 06 Feb 2012 14:41

VinayG wrote:please tell me the raffys we are getting are fitted with retractable fuel probe the fixed one are a real eye sore


not possible i guess. they deliberately kept it fixed for keeping the lower maintainence cost, ease of handling and to avoid the risk of failure.

Failure-prone systems have been eliminated early on in the design process:

- there is no airbrake
- the air intakes have no moving parts
- the ac generators do not have any constant speed drive (CSD)
- and the refuelling probe is fixed in order to avoid any deployment or retraction problem.

This results in reduced spares inventory, less man-hours and less ground support equipment.


Rafale Low operating costs

besides that one other reason i guess is that they want to avoid the weight penalty.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22330 » 06 Feb 2012 14:53

tejas wrote:The other thing about the Rafale deal that not many are speaking about was eluded to in an article posted earlier in this thread. Single crystal turbine blade tech. If India is to spend up to $ 20 billion on this deal that tech must be transferred. I think with the Rafale production line about to be shut down without this order, it will be.


I'm not sure how the contract as it relates to transfer of technology will be structured. Single Crystal Blade (SCB) and engine hot section components are made by TITAL Germany - will TITAL agree to transfer this technology (their core competency) to India? If yes, then they will want their pound of the MMRCA flesh, unless the IAF is satisfied with a JV between TITAL and an Indian firm to manufacture these components in India and considers that such a JV will meet the ToT requirement. Will TITAL transfer this technology to an Indian JV it does not control?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby saptarishi » 06 Feb 2012 16:23

Arun Menon wrote:Katrina's cockpit is truly out of this world. Can anyone tell me why no one else has gone for such a big and beautiful HUD, surely it is superior to the tiny ones that we see even on the F-35 and other modern fighters.


bro f-22,pak-fa ,f-15e/k/sg, eurofighter,gripen,j-10 all feature such wide angle HUDs,
moreover f-35 does not feature any HUD because it has helmet displays which do the job.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 06 Feb 2012 17:03

It’s India’s choice - UK can’t tell us which aircraft to buy

Britain may have reason to feel disappointed with India’s decision to reject a bid by a consortium comprising the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain for the supply of medium multi-role combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force. But it cannot insist that, because it has reportedly been giving ‘massive’ amounts of money to India as ‘aid’, the European consortium ought to have been rewarded with this contract. Unfortunately, the clamour against India’s decision is being led by Britain’s Prime Minister David Cameron who, while being restrained in his criticism — he has expressed disappointment and vowed to continue lobbying on behalf of the Eurofighter Typhoon manufactured by the consortium, the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company — has done little to help tone down the hysterical reactions of Members of Parliament (and the British media as well) who have gone as far as to accuse India of “ingratitude”. In the first place, critics in Britain should understand that the door has not been shut on the Typhoon forever; the aircraft may well be considered favourably whenever the IAF decides to expand its fleet next. The British media and parliamentarians should not vitiate the atmosphere and turn that possibility into an impossibility.

The second issue is that of the misplaced linkages which law-makers in that country are seeking to make between a defence deal and aid to India (which we have consistently been reluctant to accept). Surely it is not among the conditions that were agreed upon between the two countries while releasing and receiving such aid that India shall be honour-bound to award major defence contracts to Britain. It is for India as a sovereign nation to decide on the kind of military equipment that it needs, and that call is taken by experts who short-list the best among the bids that are on offer, bearing in mind the price tag. Such decisions cannot be influenced by extraneous factors like the amount of aid that a country in the race to win a contract has been offering — or promising to offer. In this context, the statement by some British MPs that Britain would be willing to give aid far in excess to what France — whose Dassault Rafale has been selected in the first round of bidding for the supply of 126 MMRCA estimated at Rs 54,000 crore — offers, is an enticement in extremely poor taste.

If some Government officials in Britain had earlier justified the release of one billion pounds in aid to India on the ground that it would help the country win the coveted defence contract, then it’s for them to deal with that fallacious presumption. India is not bound by such assurances since, from all accounts, it never gave them. Britain’s knee-jerk response also overlooks the fact that at one stage Rafale had virtually been out of the reckoning, with the Ministry of Defence being rather cold to the French offer. Subsequently, through a mix of some aggressive lobbying and the single-minded focus by Dassault Rafale to go the full length in highlighting the technical strengths of the aircraft and pointing out that it has made the lowest bid swung the issue in its favour. The European consortium had the full opportunity of convincing experts in India about its aircraft. Moreover, other heavyweights such as the US’s F-16 and Russia’s MiG-35 also failed to win approval. Having failed in the final lap, Britain must move ahead and not allow the vibrant relations that India shares with the countries that are part of the European consortium to become hostage to this issue.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 06 Feb 2012 17:17

Right aircraft, wrong century
LiveMint - W.P.S.Sidhu - senior fellow at the Center on International Cooperation, New York University, writes on strategic affairs.

The Rafale or any other manned aircraft, however capable they might be, will remain a product of a bygone era of air warfare, and will struggle to adopt to the new scenario, which will be increasingly dominated by unmanned drones

When the Rafale first flew in 1986 at the height of the second Cold War, pilots were an integral part of any aircraft while “drone” was a mere descriptive for a self-opinionated windbag who did not know when to stop talking. Today, the term “drone” conjures up images of state-of-the-art, unmanned aircraft being operated by “pilots” from the comfort of a base thousands of kilometres away from the battlefield and strikes terror even among the most battle-hardened veterans. Drones refers to myriad of unmanned aerial systems (UAS) ranging from the diminutive unarmed four-and-a-half foot wingspan hand-tossed aircraft with a very limited range to the 116ft wingspan whale-like behemoth with a range of over 10,000km which can literally fly itself.

Some of the armed and more sophisticated drones are able to outperform manned aircraft in some missions and the most hostile environment with impunity. Consider the following: Presently drones can loiter for 24 hours or more to provide real-time all-weather surveillance and reconnaissance over entire cities. Armed drones also shorten the “kill chain” time—the time between identifying a target and attacking it. Drones have also earned the reputation of being the most precise weapon in military arsenals and, according to one assessment, have achieved a 95% kill capability. Not surprisingly, drones have become the weapon of choice for targeting insurgents. According to one estimate, since 2006 drones alone have killed more than 1,900 insurgents in Pakistan’s tribal belt. Finally, in the present economic crunch drones are also much cheaper to buy, operate and maintain. :?:

According to Peter Singer, the director of the 21st century defence initiative at the Brookings Institution, drones are better suited than manned aircraft for three kinds of missions: dull (such as loitering for hours over the same terrain); dirty (such as flying over a nuclear accident or fallout site); and dangerous (such as operating over hostile enemy terrain with the risk of being shot down). Soon the next generation of drones will also be able to undertake the most hallowed of all-manned aircraft missions: dogfights (combat with enemy aircraft). This trend prompted even the venerable Economist to write an epitaph for the manned fighter.

While many countries have recognized the growing import of UAS and have incorporated them into their arsenals, the US alone has witnessed a 600% increase in the demand of unmanned missions in the past decade. As a result, last year the US trained more drone pilots than fighter and bomber pilots combined. This trend is likely to continue as the number of manned squadrons are culled and replaced by a growing number of increasingly capable drones, including aircraft carrier-borne UAS which Washington plans to operate by 2013 to reassert its supremacy over China. The Pentagon has sought $5 billion from Congress for drones in 2012, and by 2020 under the unmanned system flight plan 2020-2047 it envisages spending 10 times that amount—around $55 billion.

Against this backdrop any air force that relies solely on manned aircraft will be able to achieve its strategic and tactical objectives only after expending a much higher cost in men, material and money. India is no exception to this emerging reality. In this context, the Rafale or any other manned aircraft, however capable they might be, will remain a product of a bygone era of air warfare, and will struggle to adopt to the new scenario, which will be increasingly dominated by unmanned drones. The need to acquire 126 aircraft provides a rare opportunity to create an innovative mix of manned and unmanned aircraft better suited to the emerging 21st century battlefield environment.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22539 » 06 Feb 2012 17:25

saptarishi wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:Katrina's cockpit is truly out of this world. Can anyone tell me why no one else has gone for such a big and beautiful HUD, surely it is superior to the tiny ones that we see even on the F-35 and other modern fighters.


bro f-22,pak-fa ,f-15e/k/sg, eurofighter,gripen,j-10 all feature such wide angle HUDs,
moreover f-35 does not feature any HUD because it has helmet displays which do the job.


J-10, F-15e, etc. have HUDs that are wider angle, but nothing really seems to equal the one in Rafale (maybe just my perception). Is there any way to compare the specs on these things?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22516 » 06 Feb 2012 18:15


I found Mr Cameron very selfish : he doesn't care about Indian's choice, about India people!
All count for him are the 5,000 UK jobs in the balance (which means 20,000 workers of the 4 nations will be necessary to build the 18 EFT requested ?...)
About the £1b aid he "offered" to India : it seems that it was just a bargain for MMRCA contract! What an insult!
It was not an kindness of him but with simple economic views!
Mr Cameron, i dare say that your attitude is very disappointing, and itself justifies that we turned to frenchies.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20453 » 06 Feb 2012 18:23

I wonder where the Raffy will be assembeled/ manufactured in India?

sunnydee

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby sunnydee » 06 Feb 2012 18:29

Raf Khan wrote:

I found Mr Cameron very selfish : he doesn't care about Indian's choice, about India people!
All count for him are the 5,000 UK jobs in the balance (which means 20,000 workers of the 4 nations will be necessary to build the 18 EFT requested ?...)
About the £1b aid he "offered" to India : it seems that it was just a bargain for MMRCA contract! What an insult!
It was not an kindness of him but with simple economic views!
Mr Cameron, i dare say that your attitude is very disappointing, and itself justifies that we turned to frenchies.


Its not his job to worry about our choice and our jobs and our people and not our job to worry about what his opinions are....If he does that more than he does for his own people he would be not doing in his job...Anyways he is much better for India than the Blair-Brown regime in the sense he is more pragmatic than his more "idealistic" predecessors...Lastly and more importantly we have got the aircraft the IAF wanted even after doing l1 analysis...now the only hope is the french dont screw it up as have they have done with other customers

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby koti » 06 Feb 2012 18:33

According to one estimate, since 2006 drones alone have killed more than 1,900 insurgents in Pakistan’s tribal belt. Finally, in the present economic crunch drones are also much cheaper to buy, operate and maintain.

I am not really trying to be sarcastic here.
A modernized Spitfire can be more effective and far cheaper to procure/operate then an MQ-9 in Af-Pak.
This does not apply to us as our adversaries are more then decently armed for AA.
Let us be little dreamy here. Lets dream that we somehow manage to get 100 MQ-9 in place of Jaguar. How well is this going to suit us?
Now 100 Reaper half a decade from now? Any better?
Lets now say 100 Rafale half a decade from now, Gung ho!

The need to acquire 126 aircraft provides a rare opportunity to create an innovative mix of manned and unmanned aircraft better suited to the emerging 21st century battlefield environment.

That has not emerged yet. On the contrary what has emerged is that we have fallen terrible short of numbers and IAF in its current form cannot hold its own against PLAAF or a Joint PLAAF+PAF threat that can very likely emerge by investing in UAV/UCAV instead of buying MMRCA or complementing MMRCA by Drones.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Jaybhatt » 06 Feb 2012 19:27

The Dirty Tricks Departments of the Brits. Working Overtime ?

There is an interesting piece in today's PIONEER by a former senior Indian spook, about the methods used by foreign suppliers to influence Indian defence contracts.

B Raman, the author is quite specific about the British modus operandi : "The British, particularly, played a very dirty game by planting suspicions in the minds of Rao through their contacts in the Indian intelligence community. It is quite likely that history may repeat itself and a similar ‘Psywar’ may again start. The only way of pre-empting and preventing it is by pressing ahead with the negotiations with Dassault Aviation and signing the final contract quickly. The longer the delay, the dirtier will be the ‘Psywar’."

The Germans are equally squalid, except they do not have such a wide network in Indian decision-making circles.

Interesting days ahead in the capital's corridors of power in the next few months. :-?


(http://dailypioneer.com/columnists/item ... needs.html)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2012 20:13

Septimus P. wrote:I wonder where the Raffy will be assembeled/ manufactured in India?

Amethi?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2012 20:25

How likely is it that the French, having waited this long and won round 1, round 2 and round 3 of this MMRCA deal, will suddenly negotiate themselves out of the deal?

It ain't gonna happen.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2012 20:26

shukla wrote:Right aircraft, wrong century
LiveMint - W.P.S.Sidhu - senior fellow at the Center on International Cooperation, New York University, writes on strategic affairs.


LiveMint has now become the fountain of half baked and fully ignorant military analysts.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby pgbhat » 06 Feb 2012 20:30

lol wat? sorry I just skimmed the article... is the author *really* suggesting IAF ditch Katrina and go in for drones? :rotfl:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby pragnya » 06 Feb 2012 20:30

some lovely pictures of Rafale from Dassault site -

Rafale Manufacturing

Rafle in Flight

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 06 Feb 2012 20:36

That WPS guy hasnt gotten rid of his RNI mentality even though he is located in NYU.
He used to write similar nonsense when he was with Janes.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22516 » 06 Feb 2012 20:43

shiv wrote:
Septimus P. wrote:I wonder where the Raffy will be assembeled/ manufactured in India?

Amethi?

I think it'll be in Bangalore at HAL main aircraft division.
Don't forget M88/Kaveri engine at GTRE in Bangalore also.
And a larg part of the deal should involve Radar and EW components, as well as IR sensor. I don't know where they'll take place. But Bangalore seems to have a growth potential for this electronic stuff.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 06 Feb 2012 20:44

shiv wrote:
Septimus P. wrote:I wonder where the Raffy will be assembeled/ manufactured in India?

Amethi?


Shiv, I have a funny feeling your golf course is going to disappear! :shock:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2012 20:58

Raf Khan wrote:
shiv wrote:Amethi?

I think it'll be in Bangalore at HAL main aircraft division.
Don't forget M88/Kaveri engine at GTRE in Bangalore also.
And a larg part of the deal should involve Radar and EW components, as well as IR sensor. I don't know where they'll take place. But Bangalore seems to have a growth potential for this electronic stuff.

Don't vote Congress unless it goes to Amethi!

But seriously, I recall reading that the Hawk production line will have completed its run and Helos will shift elsewhere leaving HAL Bangalore to do the honors. Jags done. Hawks done. LCA line crawling separately. Nasik busy with Sukhoi. Koraput - Sukhoi. Leaves only Bangalore. Maybe a new unit in Mysore? Don;t know

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2012 21:04

there was a report would setup a new plant near bangalore somewhere. perhaps western reaches like along the NICE road, kengeri, bidadi, harohalli on kanakpura road is an option to remain within bus pool distance of current worker pool. another option is devanhalli to take advantage of the upcoming elevated expway. wipro is making aerospace parts there somewhere....if you look at the devanhalli to hoskote national highway behind the airport there is land there and continues to extend behind whitefield upto sarjapur.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 06 Feb 2012 21:08

Jaybhatt wrote:The Dirty Tricks Departments of the Brits. Working Overtime ?

There is an interesting piece in today's PIONEER by a former senior Indian spook, about the methods used by foreign suppliers to influence Indian defence contracts.

B Raman, the author is quite specific about the British modus operandi : "The British, particularly, played a very dirty game by planting suspicions in the minds of Rao through their contacts in the Indian intelligence community. It is quite likely that history may repeat itself and a similar ‘Psywar’ may again start. The only way of pre-empting and preventing it is by pressing ahead with the negotiations with Dassault Aviation and signing the final contract quickly. The longer the delay, the dirtier will be the ‘Psywar’."

The Germans are equally squalid, except they do not have such a wide network in Indian decision-making circles.

Interesting days ahead in the capital's corridors of power in the next few months. :-?


(http://dailypioneer.com/columnists/item ... needs.html)


Well, don't think the french intelligence and our MI will not be on the job to ensure that no hanky panky takes place?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2012 21:18

rajanb wrote:Shiv, I have a funny feeling your golf course is going to disappear! :shock:

Only if BDA is allowed to meddle. HAL and the French have no power to do that. BDA will make 25,000 30x40 plots with 9 foot wide road and convert the lakes into high rises where the basement floods in the monsoon.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2012 22:26

but isnt it true BDA in general leased out the golf courses in blr on very long terms at very sweet rates to the golf associations - usually the rich cabal of IAS types, mantris, industrialists, patricians who are long term members ?
the KGA for example is paying a rent of Rs 1/acre for 30 years now. Babus are saying let us in , or we shall increase the rent to market rate which is huge
http://www.bangaloremirror.com/printart ... c&subsite=

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2012 22:27

tejas wrote:<SNIP>
PS. Look at the serrated edges for RCS reduction, the wing body blending, the stealthy air intakes...
<SNIP>

Tejas ji, the intake of Rafale is not stealthy ... it is just that EF's intake is extremely radar friendly, while the frontal Rafale's is not as bad.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby tsarkar » 06 Feb 2012 22:31

shiv wrote:
Raf Khan wrote:I think it'll be in Bangalore at HAL main aircraft division. Don't forget M88/Kaveri engine at GTRE in Bangalore also. And a larg part of the deal should involve Radar and EW components, as well as IR sensor. I don't know where they'll take place. But Bangalore seems to have a growth potential for this electronic stuff.
Don't vote Congress unless it goes to Amethi! But seriously, I recall reading that the Hawk production line will have completed its run and Helos will shift elsewhere leaving HAL Bangalore to do the honors. Jags done. Hawks done. LCA line crawling separately. Nasik busy with Sukhoi. Koraput - Sukhoi. Leaves only Bangalore. Maybe a new unit in Mysore? Don;t know
Jaguar line was followed by the Hawk that will be followed by MMRCA. That was always the plan. Helicopters will get a brand new factory at Bidar, for which Karnataka govt is acquiring/allocating land.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karthi » 06 Feb 2012 22:35

Jaybhatt wrote:The Germans are equally squalid, except they do not have such a wide network in Indian decision-making circles.


A newbie question: EADS seem to hold 46% share in Dassault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Aviation#Shareholders) , so even with Rafale chosen, the Germans still get a share of the profits? Is that why Brits are the more unhappy ones of the lot?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Feb 2012 22:37

no, the brits are also large shareholders, and they will also be win some parts of rafale - not least being ejection seats. the issue is more political than industrial. the real criticism is against the british government for failing to promote their own industry and secure a win in times of economic hardship. i am sure you'd hear the same rhetoric out of france had it been the other way.

more importantly it is now crystal clear that the IAF's future posture features much more deep strike and fight out than pure air dominance

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Suraj » 06 Feb 2012 22:48

A lot of the British response is internal and UK-EU politics.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby silod » 06 Feb 2012 22:56

Philip wrote:PS:What's the response from the IAF pilots? They must be jubilant that a decision has been reached and which bird was chosen.Does anyone have some off the record info? It would be nice to have a few viewpoints.ACM Browne and his predecessors involved from the start too must be saluted for their perseverance and single mindedness in keeping the contest strictly objective ,conducting an unprecedented evaluation anywhere around the globe,and working out the actual cost of lifecycle ownership too.If such focus was/is given to the LCA programme too by the ADA ,we should make headway much faster and not hear the remarks made by the CNS emanating from the CoAS too!


I spoke to one of my known who has flown IL-78 all his life and is working with a foreign commercial liner currently. He said forget everything.... excellent radar, fantastic Airframe, semi-stealth, weapon payload, nuclear capable etc etc. What is more than enough for the IAF is that French men/machinery are the tried and tested friends. They will always be ready to support us when we need them in distress.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cybaru » 06 Feb 2012 22:59

^^^ Lalmohan,

Very glad to see we are not always jockeying for Air dominance toys. We needed a mud mover and Rafale is perhaps a better mud mover than tiffy.. Spectra/ASEA and large payload carrying capacity will translate into a very healthy A to G platform.

Excellent choice I think. We need to tie loose ends, get production of ASEA for LCA-MK-2 and perhaps spectra tuned and retrofitted for first MLU for both LCA-MK1 and LCA-Mk2.

Sign up for Kaveri-snecma at the same time and have a vision for moving forward.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby pankajs » 07 Feb 2012 00:44

India buys fighter plane others reject - Vancouver Sun
[...]
Indian officials insist the choice of the Rafale was made entirely on cost considerations after a run-off comparison with the Typhoon Eurofighter. The Indian media have quoted official sources as saying the Rafale came in at $5 million cheaper per plane than the Typhoon.

Early last year, proposals from America's Boeing with the F-18 Hornet, and Lockheed Martin's F-16 Falcon, the Russian manufacturers of the MiG-35, and the Gripen from Sweden's Saab were dropped from the competition when they failed to meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force.

The outline scheme is that Dassault will supply 18 complete Rafale jets to India starting in mid-2015 and that the remaining 108 fighters will be manufactured in India over six years by Hindustan Aeronautics, which will receive a substantial technology transfer from the French company.

There is also the prospect that India could build at least another 60 Rafales, taking the total cost of the project to about $20 billion.

In the companies making up the Eurofighter consortium there was much confidence their offer had winning attractions.

Apart from the overall benefit to India of forging industrial and diplomatic bonds with four major European countries (Ger-many, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom), the Typhoon package envisaged creating 20,000 jobs in India. It also envisaged India becoming a full partner in the continuing Eurofighter project, including future models of the warplane and shares in export revenues.

There is suspicion in non-French European media that Sarkozy, who is facing defeat in the coming presidential election and for whom a large industrial contract could provide a boost, has worked hard to sweeten the deal for Dassault.

Sarkozy's vocal support for the Indian government's cherished aim to get a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council has been pointed to, as well as his support for India to gain unrestricted access to nuclear technology.

Indian Defence Minister Arackaparambil Kurian Antony has repeatedly insisted that there were "no political considerations" in picking the Rafale.

"Defence procurement is strictly professional and based on price," he said late last year.

What is undoubtedly of influence in this latest Franco-Indian deal, however, is the long history of the New Delhi government buying French arms.
[...]

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Yagnasri » 07 Feb 2012 02:31

Apart from being sore losers Brits have this colonial hangover and thinking "how dare these Indians to reject our fighters, we have graciously offered to them". Reject of this scale is not expected from a farmer slave nation. Right. The danger of Raffa getting more and more orders from elsewhere can not be ruled out now as compared to a pre Indian decisions time when raffa production itself is about to be closed. Let this be a lesson to them. In future they will think twice before behaving like they did immediately after our nuclear tests.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rahul Shukla » 07 Feb 2012 02:33

Here's my compilation of sixteen official Dassault publications ("Fox Three") regarding Rafale in PDF format. I hope jingos have fun reading the material, as I surely will myself. Alternatively, you may access individual "Fox Three" publications on Dassault's official site: Dassault Publications

For those who are interested, Dassault even has a desktop widget that keeps you updated on all Dassault news/info (link)

You're welcome! Go Katrina!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby VikramS » 07 Feb 2012 02:59

viewtopic.php?p=1238801#p1238801

Link to post about an article behind the strategic reasons to stick with the French.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby saptarishi » 07 Feb 2012 03:33

Arun Menon wrote:J-10, F-15e, etc. have HUDs that are wider angle, but nothing really seems to equal the one in Rafale (maybe just my perception). Is there any way to compare the specs on these things?

you are right rafale hud is one of the best .i am posting the hud field of regard for various fighters:
gripen and f-15e (same HUD) : 28*20 DEGREE FIEL OF REGARD{FOR}
F-22: 30*25 DEGREE
RAFALE:30*22 DEGREE FOR
EUROFIGHTER:35*25
J-10:28*20
i have done a lot of searching as far as field of ragards for these fighters are concerned.eurofighter's HUD'S for is slightly greater than THAT of rafale and f-22.so it makes iT clear that rafale hud is the one of the best.almost as good as eurofighter 's and f-22's HUD.
I


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