Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Feb 2012 21:17

Oh! Sure, P8I is a defensive system....on the same lines as the entire japanese military set up is defensive.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 07 Feb 2012 21:30

rohitvats wrote:Oh! Sure, P8I is a defensive system....on the same lines as the entire japanese military set up is defensive.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Feb 2012 21:34

here the fellows go again...

UK tightens arms export licensing

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 07 Feb 2012 21:43

Singha wrote:^But never mind, Brits. Don’t be such sore losers. Stiff upper lip, old boy. Look at the bright side. You can keep the chicken tikka masala. You’ll always have Jeremy Clarkson. And in some corner of the musty dining room of the Calcutta Club it is forever England.

Why bother about small arms you have Mr Tony Blair the ultimate WMD, to sell to the highest bidder.
The Weapons of Mass Disappearence.

His famous words "Iraqis are just a screwdriver turn away from making WMDs.."

Yes and
"UK was just a screwdriver turn away from getting on contract from Indian for EF"

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 07 Feb 2012 21:48

rohitvats wrote:Oh! Sure, P8I is a defensive system....on the same lines as the entire japanese military set up is defensive.

Just as USA give P 3 Orions and Harpoon missiles to Pakistan to defend itself against the Taliban

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 07 Feb 2012 21:49

chackojoseph wrote:here the fellows go again...

UK tightens arms export licensing

Go ahead Britannia. Go dig your grave, deeper and deeper

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 07 Feb 2012 22:12

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/eurof ... herstories

This is interesting and IF TRUE will go A LONG WAY in helping us reduce the L1 price even further.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 07 Feb 2012 22:15

harbans wrote:^ Indeed 66 plus 57 additional AJTs and a massive 300m $ deal with Rolls Royce to supply Adour MK 871 engines for thew same..EADS is also manufacturing the Eurocopter which plans to sell hundreds in India. Possibly after Russia, UK and France are the biggest beneficiaries of defense deals with India.

So all that is not sufficient for Brits? Why is Media/Govt not mentioning the confirmed deals? Those 57 Indian Navy Hawk AJTs planes are yet to be delivered to my knowledge. All of these guys have collective amnesia I guess.

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 07 Feb 2012 22:22

nukavarapu wrote:
Badar wrote: It is arguable that an ASW/LRMP aircraft is defensive in nature. Some systems like SAMs are inherently defensive.
Please don't take the bate. This guy called Fidel Guevara has put lot of threatening posts about IAF and at every point tried to feed the khan propaganda. I am just calling out his lies. And there was more to my P8I post along with me calling it more of a defensive platform. The main point of contention is that India will not buy any offensive stuff from Khan. And my point of contention was there was nothing else in the market that comes close to P8-I and we never know if there was any competitor available. Fidel Guevara is just trying to prove here that how big a mistake whe did by not buying US birds and how incompetent IAF is wrt USAF and its F22s.

Don't you dare to misquote me. My initial post was all about keeping options open. You have selectively quoted me and lied that my entire point is about "IAF is incompetent". You are the liar here, not me. Anything that is against your blinkered worldview is assumed to be wrong. You are a stubborn egomaniac who cannot let go, and like a hyena you come back again and again, just to get your nuts kicked. Enough of this, no further OT! Just bugger off.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Feb 2012 22:25

Well the fact is Unkil as usual is wary of selling any weapon platform to India which might give it an edge if latter were to mount a surprise attack on TSP (the friggin paranoid bunch in DC overestimate the incompetent bunch in the south block) , so in that sense P-8I is not an offensive platform , it is primarily an anti-submarine platform the harpoons are of course nice to have but our surface fleet already packs a far bigger punch in that department. MRCA on the other hand if nuke capable completely tilts the balance of power in the subcontinent in India's favor and Rafale does that for us, 'tun tun' aka F-35 with all those bells and whistles would have thrown a lot of tantrums and obviously hard wired to not accept any desi payload.

silod · Post by **silod** » 07 Feb 2012 22:34

Where are we going to deploy the first batch of A/C when they arrive from France? Jodhpur? Ambala?

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 07 Feb 2012 22:37

nukavarapu wrote:I guess time to call in Mods.

Yes, I agree. It is frustrating to have any discussion with you, if anything goes against your view of the world.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 07 Feb 2012 23:00

Its a bit off tropic but all will enjoy!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... tilla.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Feb 2012 23:05

The MRCA Story And What It Means For India
http://brfrahulm.blogspot.in/2012/02/mr ... india.html

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 07 Feb 2012 23:30

So the P8I is a defensive weapon now? I see. The paranoia in this thread has become limitless.

And I suppose the LCA which flies with American engines and will be an offensive weapon will have a secret kill switch that causes it to drop out of the sky during wars. Alrighty then.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 07 Feb 2012 23:33

Rahul M wrote:The MRCA Story And What It Means For India
http://brfrahulm.blogspot.in/2012/02/mr ... india.html

Good article Rahul. Couple of quick comments.

Doubt the degree to which the two front scenario was a significant factor for IAF. Not doubting your theory/rationale, but doubting IAF's requirements process. If you can shed more light on IAF's thoughts on this matter, it will help clarify.

On TOT, it is a wide open question to what degree is it going to help the Indian MIC. On paper all these off sets look good but none of the players involved want this process to work.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Feb 2012 23:39

I don't think it was much of a factor when the program started (but then we have been preparing for a two front war as far back as 1965) but it would certainly have been considered during the tech eval due to recent developments. let's not forget public utterances from brass on this issue.

as for TOT, there is a lot of ifs and buts involved, as I mentioned in the article.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Feb 2012 23:49

I hereby declare a ceasefire* on this thread. the curfew will be enforced by hovering bredators and violators shall be hellphyrred.

* discuss anything other than the US related tu tu main main that's going on.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 08 Feb 2012 00:52

how come no jingo noticed this

Rafale International has started its INDIAN WEBSITE .HAVE A LOOK AT THIS

http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?lang=en

TECH SPECS of rafale, dassault's historical relationship with IAF, the fine line of dassault aircrafts that have served in IAF ever since its inception,basically an over elated dassault/rafale international with its partners like snecma/safran/thales has bared it all. yes they won.

finally.but you never know with these guys.they screwed it in uae ,brazil,switzerland,singapore,korea.so keep your fingers crossed until MOD/GOI SIGNS the deal and the finance ministry gives its nod,because from here only rafale's stupid negotiators and babus in finance ministry can play spoilsport.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 08 Feb 2012 01:09

Personally I find the Rafale to be a beautiful plane with one exception. The always out refueling probe. Perhaps future editions can do something about that. To me, it ruins its clean lines. I can handle the canards but the probe being out (all the time) just looks bizzare. And as for the American discussion, I will listen to the moderators and not bring it up. I'll just say this. All countries want to make money. All countries want to belittle their competitors when making sales, especially when economies are tough. France is no exception. I'm glad the IAF chose based on the merits but let's not canonize the French. Moreover, the snecma deal for the kaveri engine is a prospective project. Let's see what comes of it. I would hate to see the meltdown on BR if the French screw us.

archan · Post by **archan** » 08 Feb 2012 02:04

Fidel and nukavarapu, please make use of the forum friend/foe function to put each other on your ignore lists and enjoy!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Feb 2012 05:26

MMRCA deal a shot in the arm for industry
Business Standard

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would be the lead production agency and would be in charge of assembly of the aircraft and engines. It would commence production by T+4 years. It would produce 20 aircraft a year at steady state (T+9 years) and deliver all 108 made in India by the 12th year. However, components, subsystems and services can be procured by the vendor (Dassault) or its OEMs from any Indian Defence Industry of their choice.

KNOW-HOWS WHICH MAY BE TRANSFERRED

* On airframe side, technology relating to composites, super plastics, metal treatment and processes such as robotic riveting are crucial.

* On the engine side Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC), titanium casting, special coatings such as microflon, graphoil, processes such as radio crystallography, advance forging technologies are expected to be transferred to Indian companies.

* On the avionics side, state of the art radar, mission computer, head-mounted displays, auto pilot, moving maps and technology relating to inertial navigation systems, flight instrumentation, communication systems, low-intensity conflict electronic warfare systems are expected to be transferred.

* On aggregates, technology relating to landing gears, fuel systems, servo hydraulic systems, pneumatic systems, heat exchangers, ejection seats are likely to be transferred.

Ravinarayanan, one of the pioneers in private sector initiatives for Indian Defence sector added that the DPP 2012 is expected to be radically different incorporating most of industry concerns. “The top three key points are providing incentives to OEMs by the way of offset multipliers if they work with SMEs, providing offset credits for technology transfer with incentives to OEM for buyback guarantees and providing incentive for more value addition in India. If these are announced in the new policy and retrospected for MMRCA contract, it would help India to create a necessary eco-system to compete in the global market place,” he noted.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Feb 2012 05:43

Hopeful straws in the wind
DailyPioneer

Our buying some $ 20 billion worth of the French company Dassault’s Rafale state-of-the-art multi-role combat aircraft is a departure from our default position of buying Russian hardware. Though we will continue to hang on to that line of military supply for other items, including Sukhoi-35 aircraft and that much delayed and awaited aircraft carrier.

We can’t, and won’t, win an all-out war with China today or any time soon, but we are not going to be a pushover as we were in 1962. And that is why we are raising another mountain regiment for Arunachal Pradesh and getting on with roads, bridges, helipads and air strips there. Also, why we are talking to others in the Pacific maritime region which China wants to convert to a Pax of the Dragon pond.

The British and the Americans might be sorry to lose to the French, but we may have done something, for ourselves, based on merit, of both the aircraft and the accompanying commercial deals. We may be giving shape and fuel to our long-term ambition to actually make our own multi-role combat aircraft, not by just bolting them together, but inclusive of the technology development.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 08 Feb 2012 06:05

From the Business Standard link (2 posts above)

Of the $6 billion in offset money flowing into India, about 50 per cent would be spent on manpower. On an average of $20,000 per man year, this would mean 150,000 man years of new jobs in the defence aerospace industry. This would translate into 5,000 jobs in the3rd year and stabilise at 20,000 jobs in the ninth year. Also, all support services like maintenance, training and logistics have to be provided by Indian industries with the technology and knowhow of Dassault, Thales and Safran for the next 40 years. This could create an additional 4,000 jobs. The weapons system contract for the remaining 108 aircraft and its obligations could create additional 6,000 jobs. At the time of fulfilment my conservative assessment would be 30,000 trained, world class manpower would be deployed in Aerospace and Defence Industry. To put it in the perspective it is twice as many people we have now only on quantity,” Ravinarayanan detailed.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Feb 2012 06:40

India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil
TOI

In an unusual bilateral tie-up, India has agreed to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out an open tender evaluation to select a fighter for the over $10 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract. Brazil is presently in the process of selecting a fighter for its air force. India conveyed its willingness to share some of its documentation on the MMRCA contract during a meeting between defence minister AK Antony and his Brazilian counterpart Celso Amorim. "Brazil is in the process of buying a fighter jet. You have already reached the final stages of the fighter selection for the air force. They have promised to give us some documents on the selection process, such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours," Amorim told TOI.

Amorim met Antony and national security advisor Shiv Shankar Menon on Monday in New Delhi, and the two sides held bilateral defence consultations at various levels. Amorim said Brazil was eager to learn from India's process of finalizing Rafale, the French fighter, for the over $10 billion MMRCA contract. It is one of the world's biggest defence tenders right now. Brazil is looking to buy 36 new fighters for its air force. The tender had left it open to the possibility of the number of fighters going up to 120. The tender could run into several billion dollars, though the initial estimate was just $2.2 billion. Brazil has already made a pre-selection of three fighters - Rafale, F-18 and Gripen-NG and one will finally be selected. "Wherever there is a possibility we should always look for sharing of experience, of course while respecting confidentiality," Amorim said. "Sharing of experience doesn't mean we follow your decision," he added. The minister also said they would be looking at discussing Indian experience of building a fifth generation fighter with Russia. Brazil is also providing India an exclusively developed catalogue of NATO military equipment, in which India was interested, he said.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Feb 2012 06:48

incidentally, my blog seems to attract a paki who curses the TSP thread honchos in chaste pakjabi.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Feb 2012 06:58

Rahul M wrote:incidentally, my blog seems to attract a paki who curses the TSP thread honchos in chaste pakjabi.

Must be Basanti, the serial Dr Shiv lover who can't seem to keep off her keyboard professing love for him in my comment box.

arnabh · Post by **arnabh** » 08 Feb 2012 07:17

Typhoon team to work on Delhi
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

New Delhi, Feb. 7: The UK is “extremely disappointed” after India rejected the Eurofighter Typhoon bid and selected the Rafale for the Indian Air Force’s multi-role combat aircraft programme.

Gerald Howarth, the UK defence minister for International Security Strategy who is leading a delegation of government and business leaders in New Delhi this week, told industrialists today that the UK believes it has “a future together with India” and the choice of the Eurofighter would have helped forge a partnership.

The UK, Italy, Spain and Germany, the four countries in the consortium that make the Eurofighter Typhoon, were considering cutting the price of the fighter to make it more attractive for India, the Financial Times newspaper reported today.

“I will be discussing with our partners what to do next. In my view, all options are on the table,” chief executive of BAE Systems Ian King told the newspaper when asked if the Eurofighter will lower its price.

In Delhi, Howarth said that though the Eurofighter had lost out to the Rafale, “we entirely respect the process here”. On January 31, India concluded that the Rafale was L1 — the lowest bidder — for the medium multi-role combat aircraft programme that could be close to $20 billion.

“We, together with our partners in Germany, Italy and Spain, are extremely disappointed not to have been selected as the L1 bidder in that programme,” said Howarth.

“However, we believe that the Eurofighter Typhoon is a superb aircraft which has proven itself in operations in Libya and offers India the best aircraft at the best price. In addition, it offers unrivalled opportunities to access a wide range of European military technologies creating the very partners which I’ve been speaking of today,” said Howarth.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Feb 2012 07:40

I am not worthy!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Feb 2012 07:44

chackojoseph wrote:
Rahul M wrote:incidentally, my blog seems to attract a paki who curses the TSP thread honchos in chaste pakjabi.
Must be Basanti, the serial Dr Shiv lover who can't seem to keep off her keyboard professing love for him in my comment box.

ah yes, shiv ji was mentioned prominently. must be him/her.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Feb 2012 07:59

India has a strategic relationship with Brazil and South Africa since ages.

I was expecting this shoe to drop.

That jobs report is very good news for it will spur more aerospace/avionics studies in colleges and technical schools.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Feb 2012 08:30

Hot Kats

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Feb 2012 09:29

RahulM< Tu to yaar nikla as my Punjabi friends say. Good job on your blog!
Very clear about the threat perception.

Makes it clear why IAF didnt want any air show ponies!

Please list your blog in the GDF blogs thread.

BTW puts all the lifafa guys to shame.

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 08 Feb 2012 09:56

[img*]http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0 ... c.Full.jpg[/img]

Link: Aviation Week

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 08 Feb 2012 10:11

[img*]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__A2VG2LiIPk/T ... AF4_v2.jpg[/img]

Link: Rafale News (Blogspot)

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 08 Feb 2012 10:17

[img*]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__A2VG2LiIPk/T ... Rafale.jpg[/img]

Damoclès pod: Rafale News (Blogspot)

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Feb 2012 10:24

Is that Sixteen or Jal bin Machli in front of Kat ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYBm6dM ... re=related
helmet cam f16 fighting falcon vs rafale dogfight ARMA2 color

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 08 Feb 2012 10:27

silod wrote:Where are we going to deploy the first batch of A/C when they arrive from France? Jodhpur? Ambala?

The first batch of 18 Rafale fighters in flyaway condition is likely to reach the Indian skies only in 2015 which gives the IAF adequate time to carefully prepare the support infrastructure for the Rafale. At least initially, the IAF will most probably house the first squadron at Gwalior, the Mirage-2000 base. Given Indian flying conditions, the IAF will also have to ensure a relatively bird-free flying environment.

IDSA

..........................

44 facts about the MMRCA

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2012 10:29

Damocles is said to be inferior to the Litening4 or Sniper. we will likely stick to a Litening model for fleetwide commonality.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 08 Feb 2012 10:31

Jhujar, you realize that is a video game (simulator) right? It's plainly stated in the comments on youtube.