Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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koti
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby koti » 10 Feb 2012 09:40

Kailash wrote:So we're looking at upwards of Rs. 25,000 * 4 = ~100,000 crore or $21 bn program. [$166 mn per Rafale]

That will not be the upfront payment cost Kailash.
It will be spread across the life cycle of the plane. Thats a good 30 year period. So it should be somewhat similar to the costs we incur on other birds like FGFA or Rambha.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 10 Feb 2012 09:53

Nikhil T wrote:I couldn't desist from making back of the paper calculations.

Vipul wrote:IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review.

snip
"The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs. The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale," a top defence ministry source said on Thursday.


So Typhoon was nearly $41 mn more expensive than the Rafale per bird. This includes all costs though, not just the sticker price.


Vipul wrote:IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review.

"The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said.



So we're looking at upwards of Rs. 25,000 * 4 = ~100,000 crore or $21 bn program. [$166 mn per Rafale] :|


While calculating costs I am making the following assumptions:

a) That $166M is correct
b) A standard per unit cost for fly-away, SKD, CKD and local manufacturing including offsets and ToT
c) That the $166M is including 20 year life cycle costs
d) That the annual maintenance costs is about 6% for the first 10 years and 8 % for the next 10 years, averaged out as per delivery schedules.

This makes for 60% for first 10 years and 80% for the next 10. Making it a total of 140%

hence 166m/240% approximates to $69M each, without the annual maintenance costs.

Par for the course? And the figure being bandied about earlier approximated to, in the 70-75M range.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby karan_mc » 10 Feb 2012 10:08

Brazil has requirement of 36 aircraft’s but follow up orders may go up to 80 aircraft’s and UAE has requirements of 60 aircraft’s


Advantage Rafale in Brazil and UAE after India’s selection

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2012 10:18

While the Tiffy is an excellent aircraft,it suffers from the fact that it has four "cooks".That each participating nation has to approve any upgrade etc.,means a four-fold exercise in the art of babudom.The requirements of each of the partner nations might have subtle differences in eqpt. and factoring in each nation's individual requirements would add to the entire exercise of developing and producing the aircraft.This is one reason why the cost of the EF is higher,as non-technical/eqpt. costs-of coordinating matters between 4 countries are greater than if it had been produced by just one or two nations.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Feb 2012 10:19

^ From article posted above:

Dassault will now have to submit a detailed project report on the transfer of technology (ToT) to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). While the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition'' from France from mid-2015 onwards, the rest 108 fighters will subsequently be manufactured under licence by HAL over six years.


Is that like soooper sloow ooor whaaat? So we don't see a single Rafale in IAF colors until 2015-16? Nuckin Futs! Naat good for security wonlee! Aiyoo where are the second hand M2ks, SMTs, and Yellseeyay Mark 1s? These can and should be inducted in that time. I have a nasty feeling IAF's going to need them.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kailash » 10 Feb 2012 10:22

koti wrote:
Kailash wrote:So we're looking at upwards of Rs. 25,000 * 4 = ~100,000 crore or $21 bn program. [$166 mn per Rafale]

That will not be the upfront payment cost Kailash.
It will be spread across the life cycle of the plane. Thats a good 30 year period. So it should be somewhat similar to the costs we incur on other birds like FGFA or Rambha.


may be Nikhil T could provide an response to that, not my post :)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kailash » 10 Feb 2012 11:01

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review

It was the “substantially higher cost” of acquiring and operating the Eurofighter Typhoon that led to its ejection from the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to supply 126 fighters to IAF. ”The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs. The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore :eek: if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale,” a top defence ministry source said on Thursday.


“The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high… it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra,” the source said.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kailash » 10 Feb 2012 11:07

-- self delete--
Last edited by Kailash on 10 Feb 2012 11:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 10 Feb 2012 11:10

How useful is buddy air refueling? we need the refuel-er to be in the vicinity somewhere for a/c in near danger zone of exhausting most of the fuel it has.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 10 Feb 2012 11:25

its a niche role - useful in the case the VDPSA mission is through truly hostile tanker unfriendly territory and you still need to extend the legs of the 1 or 2 strike a.c which will go all the way and return...kind of like a telescoping ladder.

the manned nuclear strike / conventional VDPSA role might feature such refuelers as additional insurance so that even if they get diverted way off course, there is some fuel to still attempt completing the mission.

VDPSA - very DPSA - missions 750km+ from originating base.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Anant » 10 Feb 2012 11:40

Refueling probe.

In one of the photos above, it appears that the Rafale is lacking its fixed refueling probe. I'm referring to the camo photo. Is this a different version? Modifiable? Any answers?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srai » 10 Feb 2012 12:09

Nikhil T wrote:I couldn't desist from making back of the paper calculations.

Vipul wrote:IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review.

snip
"The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said.


So we're looking at upwards of Rs. 25,000 * 4 = ~100,000 crore or $21 bn program. [$166 mn per Rafale] :|


I don't think that's a correct way to calculate the price of Rafale. All that article says is Typhoon was 25,000 crores more expensive (or 25% more expensive) than what Rafale quoted. We don't know what the total crores Rafale came out to be ... only that EF was 25% more than that Rafale total amount.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rahul M » 10 Feb 2012 12:26

if 25% of rafale's price = 25k crores then rafale price = 100k crores.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 10 Feb 2012 12:34

Rahul M great Blog.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Neela » 10 Feb 2012 13:53

Rahul M,

:) "Dark side of Rafale"

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Skanhai » 10 Feb 2012 14:17

from JSFnieuws.nl:
The Pentagon has earmarked $151 million per plane and, in April 2011 (this was about the F35)


Can't see the rafale going over that number. But I would love the see the price of one aircraft in flyaway condition.
Without missiles etc.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby VishalJ » 10 Feb 2012 14:19

I had saved-up this photo for later as i always though she was gonna win & win she did!

My photo of Katrina returning back to her stand with Shiv in the backseat in Absolutely DREAM LIGHTING Image
HIGH-RES http://www.airliners.net/photo/2062603/L/

Pls click here to Rate & Remark on it Image

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Feb 2012 19:48

Anant wrote:Refueling probe.

In one of the photos above, it appears that the Rafale is lacking its fixed refueling probe. I'm referring to the camo photo. Is this a different version? Modifiable? Any answers?


Probably fan art/photochop.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20617 » 10 Feb 2012 20:40

Both Rafale and Tiffy camps are desperate to sell for the following reasons:
(1) current economic climate
(2) trying to recoup as much cost as possible from turd world country like India
(3) before they close their production line and go for another plane.

We must therefore take advantage of this situation and buy Rafale at the lowest possible price.

Expected production summary – Euro fighter (Wiki)
Germany - 143
Italy - 96
Saudi Arabia - 72
Spain - 73
United Kingdom - 160

The first production contract was signed on 30 January 1998 between Eurofighter GmbH, Eurojet and NETMA.[30] The procurement totals were as follows: UK 232, Germany 180, Italy 121, and Spain 87

All the nations then reduced their orders. The UK cut its orders from 250 to 232 to 160, Germany from 250 to 180 to 143, Italy from 165 to 121 to 96 and Spain from 100 to 87 to 73

Disclaimer:There may be errors on Wiki!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby krishnan » 10 Feb 2012 20:46

Another plane ???

I really doubt french are going to develop another plane

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby karan_mc » 10 Feb 2012 20:50

Half the Europe will be switching to American developed 5th Generation F-35 , but wht about French ?? are they directly going to UCAV's and skipping 5th Gen fighters ? can be bring french and Brazil into AMCA program ?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Feb 2012 20:58

^ Well before they go entirely unmanned, they intend to work on the Rafale with more "discrete" (read stealthier) options. IIRC, there was originally a stealthy rafale planned (Rafale D?), and the latest upgrade path seems to include a few more such options to make the bird more survivable.

I think the AMCA should benefit from this and actually be the go between for a Rafale and a UCAV.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arthuro » 10 Feb 2012 21:52

The typhoon is even more expensive than the F35 and one of its partner will put an end to this program :

Italy buys its first three F-35s. With a shocking announcement: “a JSF will cost less than a Eurofighter Typhoon”

On Feb. 7, 2012, Gen. Claudio Debertolis, head of the agency that is responsible for the procurement of new armaments, has announced that Italy has already ordered the first three Lockheed Martin F-35s.

Unit price: 80 million USD.

Talking to the lower house’s defense commitee, Debertolis explained that these first planes will cost more than the rest of the fleet since costs are going to decrease as the program, currently in Low Rate Initial Production, continues. The Italian high rank officer is particularly optimistic, as he believes that the unit price will be around 70 million each (Lockheed Martin estimates 65M USD for the F-35A and about 73M USD for the F-35B), less than the 79 million USD currently paid for the Eurofighter Typhoon and much less of the 121 million USD per aircraft anticipated in 2011.
Quite surprising, since unit price is one of the JSF partner’s main concern, but possible, considering also that the Typhoon has just lost India’s mother of all tenders based on price.
Although there’s no official commitment yet, the initial requirement for Italy foresaw 131 examples (69 conventional take-off and landing F-35As and 62 of the short take-off and vertical landing variant F-35Bs). Debertolis confirmed that determining how many aircraft Italy will purchase is not a current task, since it will depend on the Defense Budget Review. Nevertheless, even if the number of aircraft will be much lower than the initial 131, the MoD will work to make sure that the industry will get the expected compensation.

Italy is working on stretching deliveries and slowing purchase “a much easier task than that with the Eurofighter program, since the F-35 procurement is modular therefore delays don’t imply increasing costs” Debertolis said.

Furthermore with the recent Eurofighter defeat in India, Italy is going to stop working on the Typhoon and “divert” part (if not all) of its workforce towards the F-35, being assembled at the Cameri FACO (Final Assembly and Check Out) facility.
Finally, Debertolis has confirmed that Italy will have both A and B variants, with the STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing) ones serving both the Air Force and the Navy, that will use them on the Cavour aircraft carrier.

In spite of the widespread criticism surrounding the program and the global financial crisis it looks like the F-35 has, if not a bright future ahead, at least good chances to survive the austerity measures of the new Monti’s technocratic cabinet.

http://theaviationist.com/2012/02/08/f35-typhoon/

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rahul M » 10 Feb 2012 22:29

arthuro, any comments about rafale's supposed lack of 2-way datalink wrt the meteor ?

rajanb saar and Neela ji, thanks. :)

Martenullah, not sure it can be done without knowing the factors that go into lifecycle cost calculation.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Ganesh_S » 10 Feb 2012 23:22

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ia/464320/

Ajay shukla in a different perspective

For these companies, the big question was: which fighter to offer? Lockheed Martin had the F-22 Raptor, the world’s only fifth-generation fighter, which would win any competition hands-down but would never be cleared for export. The company was also building the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, but that was years away from completion and could not participate in IAF’s impending flight trials.


It was the next stage of evaluation — flight trials — that has put IAF’s testing process in a league of its own. Conducted by the Directorate of Air Staff Requirements, and overseen by the quiet and unflappable Air Commodore (now Air Vice-Marshal) R K Dhir, each of the six contenders was flight-tested by IAF pilots on 660 separate performance aspects. For example, the RfP demanded that the fighter’s engine should be replaced within one hour. The maintenance teams actually made each contender do that. If IAF demanded a “sustained turn rate” (the quickness with which a fighter can turn around in the air) of 24 degrees per second, each fighter was physically put through this manoeuvre to establish that it met this requirement. (Incidentally, both the US fighters failed to meet IAF’s “sustained turn rate” requirements)


The final countdown has begun, towards signing a contract with Dassault. A defence ministry body called the Contract Negotiating Committee will now engage Dassault in beating down its price, grilling Dassault’s negotiators on the calculations that determined the final price of the Rafale, and scanning the costs of labour and materials that go into the fighter. For example, CNC will find out how much titanium goes into each aircraft and then check titanium prices on the London Metal Exchange. CNC will also vet labour costs, determining the number of skilled workmen and engineers needed to build the Rafale and multiplying that by the wages (which are notoriously high in France). The aim will be to demonstrate to the Dassault negotiators that the Rafale can be built cheaper than the price they have quoted


CNC negotiations will also centre on the technologies that Dassault (and its sub-vendors, like Thales) will transfer to India, and the modalities for doing so. The RfP mandates that the technology for the AESA radar (which Thales builds) is to be transferred to India. CNC will verify how that technology, and others, would actually be transferred. Offsets are another minefield that Dassault must cross, ploughing back into Indian industry at least 50 per cent of the estimated $15-17 billion contract value of this deal. Only after these issues are resolved will a contract be actually signed. Senior IAF officers believe this could take till late-2012

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Feb 2012 01:05

From the article by Col. Shukla (thanks Ganeshji):
Incidentally, both the US fighters failed to meet IAF’s “sustained turn rate” requirements)


No surprises here - the STR on the Ecanards would have been better compared to the older designs of the Viper/Shornet. And then both these birds have rather modest TWR and have gained massive weight over the years - so poor wingloading as well. In terms of turning, that would mean some losses.

Interestingly, the fulcrum otoh, did not meet the same end - proves that they did a fabulous job of modernizing this beast - kept weight gain to a minimum thanks to extensive usage of composites AND increased thrust considerably.

Also says something about the Gripen NG design - they say its thrust/drag ratio is very good, and this performance might tend to support such a claim.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2012 01:24

A collection of op-eds on the Raffy choice in Pioneer

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists.html

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 11 Feb 2012 02:27

Italy may be acquiring only the "third class" JSF!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Lilo » 11 Feb 2012 02:42

Brazil jets deal heats up as Boeing freezes bid
By Brian Winter

SAO PAULO (Reuters) - Boeing has frozen the price on its bid for a multi-billion-dollar Brazilian air force jet contract, sources close to the deal told Reuters, as the global race to sell military hardware to emerging economic powers becomes more competitive.

Boeing is offering to sell its F-18 fighter to Brazil for the same price per plane as its previous offer during a round of bidding in 2009, the sources said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the bidding process.

The sources declined to divulge the dollar amount of the bid, which includes the cost of the plane as well as some future maintenance and replacement parts. But the offer essentially means that Boeing would assume the cost of inflation over the past two-plus years, while the planes would be more than 12 percent cheaper for Brazil in real terms compared to 2009.

"It's an unusual move ... that shows how much value is being placed upon this contract," one of the sources said.

Boeing is competing with France's Dassault and Sweden's Saab for the Brazil deal, which is expected to be worth more than $4 billion over time. Brazilian Defense Minister Celso Amorim told Reuters in January that he hopes the government will make a decision in the first half of 2012.

Boeing's offer illustrates how U.S. and European defense firms are aggressively pursuing deals in the developing world as their markets dry up at home due to budget cuts. Companies are also disputing jet contracts in the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and South Korea.

Dassault last week entered exclusive talks to sell its Rafale to India, which could lead to the jet's first foreign order. The deal could make the Rafale a more viable option in the Brazilian bidding process, since an established production line would allow Dassault to offer more stable pricing over time and reduce the risk of cost overruns.

The Brazilian deal will be decided by more than just price. While the F-18 is widely believed to be cheaper than the Rafale, Amorim has said that Brazil will base its choice primarily on how generously the companies offer to share their proprietary technology. Brazil hopes that knowledge will help it build a homegrown defense industry, led by Embraer, which is making a return to its roots by investing in military aircraft.

President Dilma Rousseff also sees the deal as a key decision in Brazil's strategic alignment during the next few decades, officials have said. The planes will be used to help guard Brazil's borders, protect its recently discovered offshore oil fields, and project greater power as Latin America's largest economy continues its climb into the world's elite.

A spokesman for the Brazilian government did not reply to a request for comment. Boeing spokeswoman Marcia Costley said: "We're in a competition and can't comment on the specifics of our offering but what I can say is that Boeing can guarantee a price that has been trending downwards because we have an active production line and can leverage economies of scale."

OUTCOME UNCLEAR

Amorim's recent comments suggest that the Brazilian deal is entering its endgame after more than a decade of intrigue and last-minute surprises.

Rousseff's predecessor, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, all but declared Dassault the winner late in his presidency but left office without finalizing the deal. Rousseff then appeared to favor Boeing in comments shortly after taking office in January 2011, but recent developments including Dassault's India talks mean the final decision is now anybody's guess.

Brazilian newspaper Folha de S.Paulo reported this week that the government is leaning toward the Rafale again, though it did not provide a source for the information.

Rousseff is likely to personally lead the decision-making on the contract, Amorim said in January.

The decision may come at a moment when Rousseff will be under unusually heavy pressure to be cost-conscious. The government is expected to freeze about $30 billion in budget spending in the next few weeks, equivalent to just over 3 percent of this year's budget, in an effort to cool the economy and help contain inflation.

The budget freeze will likely be unpopular among members of Congress who will see their discretionary funds cut. That means that Rousseff will need to appear circumspect on other big purchases - including the jets - in order to avert a backlash.

(Editing by Todd Benson and Vicki Allen)


USA, because of its foreign policy goal of preserving its status as a sole supa powa is naturally hamstrung when its comes to ToT of critical techs.
Even if the congressmen are lobbied hard and made amenable, its strategic experts and spooks are inextricably steeped in "balance of power" calculations over and above the actual transaction value and inevitably come up with high totals as strategic overheads associated with any critical ToT transfers. This is a main draw back of strategic thinking (of a dominant power) - because the events linking up the chain leading to its goal of a "dynamic status quo" (balance of power) are so unpredictable that any accompanying economic analysis is littered with extensive provisioning for risks* but little in terms of benefits* accruing from its help in assisting a rising power (the "help" being ToT of a critical technology ).
It is not surprising then that US spearheads almost all multilateral initiatives for "protection" of IP with other western nations - especially the continental europeans and Japanese who are often coaxed into giving up their "degree of freedom" of able to sell technology on a case by case basis for a price to an emerging regional power.

A good example is the Indo-US nuclear deal when US negotiators put their foot down when ever there was a question with respect to transfer of critical reprocessing technologies. Here US aim was to preempt future bilateral transfers of technology which were liable to have "naturally" occured at a greater scale (and more importantly out of its oversight) either with Russia/France or even Germany/Japan and outside the extant (US created) technology denial frameworks governing nuclear trade and commerce and wanted to bind India to a framework to retard this process.

France on the other hand doesnt have such a chip on its shoulder - to preserve or expand its "theater of dominance" - because presently it has little and is actually being prevented by US (acting through the poodle and sometimes through germany) from returning to its natural state of exerting considerable influence in western europe and north and western africa.
In effect the French want a Multipolar world to diffuse US influence in Europe and middle east and this fact fits in well with their amenability for technology transfers to emerging powers.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 11 Feb 2012 03:22

Here again the deal is for the French to lose.They are already engaged in a mega deal to provide the Brazilians with nuclear subs,thus showing in advance their TOT committment,far superior to that of the US,since the intention is to boost the military aerospace capability of the already renowned Embraer group which has carved out a very enviable niche for itself in the market for civilian aircraft .This factor alone should swing the deal their way,if strategic interests are to be a vital factor.It is only on price that the Gripen has a chance,but here too,the ability of a single-engined fighter protecting Brazil's offshore oil assets in the future would be suspect.With the IAF having just chosen the Rafale,the French can be accomodating on the price.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Anant » 11 Feb 2012 03:50

Philip,

Which of the following are you getting at?

1. French nuclear subs are more advanced than US ones?
2. The french civil aviation industry is more advanced than the US?
3. There is better TOT by the French than the US. If so, do you have specific evidence in this instance?

Transfer of nuclear submarines or building them for another nation is usually a forbidden fruit. It can be argued that the US helped GB and the USSR and Russia India but I'd be hard pressed to find other examples of this.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Virupaksha » 11 Feb 2012 04:12

Anant,

There is no rule or regime (like NPT) which prohibits transfer of nuclear submarines. - Nato countries "share"* their operational control of nuclear submarines/aircraft carriers in case of war.
Infact NATO shares even the nuclear weapons itself because of grandfathering.

*there are certain nato conditions but they are not specific to nuclear submarines which is why chakra-I and II could be transferred to India.

http://cns.miis.edu/npr/pdfs/cmoltz61.pdf

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby negi » 11 Feb 2012 05:10

Anant in civillian application of nuclear technology the French are at least a generation or two ahead of Amrika bahadur even munna Japan is at forefront of nuclear power generation both GE and Westinghouse now have to rely on Japanese heavy industries (Toshiba and Mitsubishi) for pressure vessels and related critical stuff.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shiv » 11 Feb 2012 05:24

Rules are made by masters for slaves.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby VishalJ » 11 Feb 2012 06:35

My Latest Upload,
For those who dont know why we call her Katrina:
Just check out those Sexy curves as she climbs away to Glory > HIGH-RES http://www.airliners.net/photo/2063020/L/

Click here to rate & remark on it Image

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rakesh » 11 Feb 2012 07:58

MMRCA, Rafale better than Eurofighter
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/02/mmrca-rafale-better-than-eurofighter.html

As per the above article, the Rafale pulls the chaddi of the Eurofighter down even in the latter's own supposed domain ---> air to air!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rakesh » 11 Feb 2012 08:05

Cain Marko wrote:Also says something about the Gripen NG design - they say its thrust/drag ratio is very good, and this performance might tend to support such a claim.

Saar, see this...from the Armasuisse Evaluation of the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter in 2008. Just to give a backdrop of the Armasuisse....they are arguably among the best air-to-air combat pilots around. Guess being neutral and peace loving does have its advantages :)

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/11/ ... afale.html

"Rafale and Eurofighter showed generally better performance than the F/A-18, Gripen worse."

"The performance of the Gripen in air-air engagements as well as attack missions was insufficient."

"The most limiting factors of the Gripen design were the operating time, the flight performance and the maximum weapon load."


"The Rafale is the only aircraft that has met the requirements of the Air Force in all types of applications."

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rakesh » 11 Feb 2012 08:09

Ganesh_S wrote:http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/the-rafales-long-flight-to-india/464320/

Ajay Shukla in a different perspective

Only three things come out of his mouth...a noun, a verb and F-35.

That table in his article is hilarious. F/A-16 Super Hornet! Really?

And check out this gem about the SHornet. "A customised variant with high-level aircrew situational awareness, rejected in favour of the Typhoon and Rafale." WOW!!! :roll:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 11 Feb 2012 08:10

CNS should realize that the evaluating metrics could differ from air force to air force.

The decision has been made, is there a need to compare notes any more?

(Awaiting mithai for the subs. (Two lots, one with Splenda please.))
Last edited by NRao on 11 Feb 2012 08:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rakesh » 11 Feb 2012 08:11

NRao wrote:CNS should realize that the evaluating metrics could differ from air force to air force.

The decision has been made, is there a need to compare notes any more?

We are just trying to make the Brits come to terms with the loss. They are the ones who are whining and claiming the Typhoon is better.

NRao wrote:(Awaiting mithai for the subs. (Two lots, one with Splenda please.))

Mithai was already distributed...you missed the boat :) And I only distribute the ones that clog your arteries. What is the fun otherwise?


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